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Care to discuss..? #594715
12/09/19 09:42 AM
12/09/19 09:42 AM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 423
L
Luddite Offline OP
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Care to discuss..?

Hope I cause no issues in posting old pics given most of my Morgan pics were taken a few years back and in the case of these at Mount Stewart on the Isle of Bute circa 2002..

My question is how do YOU evaluate the worth of your "Classic" car(s) in the pics If I manage to work out how to post them... there are two dashboards one from a Bentley which was suggested might not be a "real one" and the other from a VERY real one, all be it with modifications... Care to make judgements..?

And for the Trike types, I managed to grab a pic of this little cracker..
10 Comments
Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #594717
12/09/19 09:55 AM
12/09/19 09:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 21,585
Devonshire
+8Rich Offline
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+8Rich  Offline
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Posts: 21,585
Devonshire

Some lovelies there George and as far as values go it's all irrelevant the only persons opinion that counts is the owners as always laugh2 it should be about enjoyment non monetary worth thumbs
Having had the good fortune of being a passenger in a Bob Petersen recreation I would have one in a heartbeat had I the funds available, to hell with the purists grin2


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green
1994 Connaught Green +8





Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #594718
12/09/19 09:59 AM
12/09/19 09:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,937
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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DaveW  Offline
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South Yorkshire
I think personal opinion on this is strongly related to how much you know about the particular model, and how much you are immersed in it, as a marque.

I know pretty much nothing about Bentleys. If I wanted a Bentley I would just buy one, after doing the usual checks, and maybe asking on a forum.

For me, MGBs are very different. I know the cars intimately. I know what a standard car should look like. I know what reproduction grilles and bumpers, and over-riders look like, and so on.
So in this case I would be strongly influenced by original/non repro parts and a complete history. That's what my BV8 had.

But for a Bentley, no, I would expect to pay less for a bitsa car but I'd be buying into the experience, and not too worried about history.


DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4
Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #594725
12/09/19 10:41 AM
12/09/19 10:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 423
L
Luddite Offline OP
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Luddite  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 423
Thanks for the responses

I guess much may depend on the way you may prioritise your sense of the WORD value in relation to YOUR datums re classic cars.. confused2

Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #594727
12/09/19 10:47 AM
12/09/19 10:47 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 6,442
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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sospan  Offline
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Posts: 6,442
Llanelli
It is hard, if not impossible, to value a car from photos. Whatever the marque it is the history of owners, history of where/ when used( racing, films, etc)provenance, condition ( either restored or oily rag originality appeals to different people).
Add to that the buyer’s desires and the seller’s often inflated values and it becomes complex.
A few years back there was a big high court case over a vintage Bentley. It had been raced and had several repairs, parts replaced etc but the buyer tried claiming money back as the car was not original with it’s build parts. The outcome was she lost ( if I remember correctly) as the racing repairs etc were part of that car’s history and provenance. So.....did she factor in the non originality? Was she aware of what happens to a race car? Did she negotiate price using all the history etc?


Red Plus8
Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #594733
12/09/19 11:27 AM
12/09/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,986
Gloucestershire, UK
Hamwich Offline
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Hamwich  Offline
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Gloucestershire, UK
The value of anything is what someone's prepared to pay for it, and different people use different yardsticks. For me, mechanical condition and usability outweigh all notions of originality or 'correctness'.

Like Rich, I'd have a Petersen recreation in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't touch an original with a bargepole.


Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar
Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #594734
12/09/19 11:30 AM
12/09/19 11:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,937
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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DaveW  Offline
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South Yorkshire
Bottom line...….there's a buyer for every car out there.

Whether its matching numbers full history...……………….or at the other end, a basket case parts build...….

At the right price, anything will find a buyer


DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4
Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #594740
12/09/19 12:06 PM
12/09/19 12:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,476
Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
Ian Wegg Offline
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Ian Wegg  Offline
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Posts: 2,476
Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
The second picture is definitely not from a genuine Bentley. It's not the dashboard that gives it away so much as the pedals, a genuine car would have a centre throttle.

I love Bentleys, it's their history that appeals to me. I understand why people like the recreations but I don't get the same feeling looking at one as I do when I see the genuine article.

Plus the recreations are always of the exotic models, usually the VDP "Le Mans" bodied cars - often with a blower. Just as I prefer the Morgan 4/4 to its more corpulent variants, I also adore the early 3 litre Bentleys. See one of those (as I did this morning) and you know it's genuine!

[Linked Image]


1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater. B4771
Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #595022
14/09/19 10:46 AM
14/09/19 10:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 423
L
Luddite Offline OP
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Luddite  Offline OP
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L

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 423
Thanks for sharing your thinking folks, much appreciated. Richard, glad you liked the old pics it was a great event with a wide variety of very interesting and rare machinery. I think it was only held once but seemed to have the makings of a really good event, perhaps it did not meet it`s goals financially or whatever... pity.

DaveW Sorry not to have made myself clear, I was not particularly thinking only Bentleys. It just so happened these two wonderful cars attended which caused me to contemplate the values of one as compared to the other given their so very obvious differences, and when I typed of value I was thinking more along the lines of the returns in the MINDS of the owners other than financial, given that one seems to represent a near perfect machine in terms of build quality, whereas the other seems to wear it`s history and a fair measure of it`s originality...

To expand on originality a tad further, It does seem that many an old car has had it`s history partially destroyed with it`s every imperfection polished out and "restored" to a degree of quality never likely achieved when it left the factory.. perhaps even over restored, whereas a old ..err..well used example can perhaps become far more interesting when parked alongside a perfected ideal... Monetary value is of little interest to me in such situations.. I too have put a few hours into rebuilding/repairing/maintaining MGB & Spridgets.. (-:

sospan, Provenance is another aspect when attributing monetary value, I do remember well the High Court case of OLD Number One which I believe may have set legal datums, relative to the IDENTITY of a machine verses it`s ORIGINALITY and the way the passage of time may play a part in the machines usage and ageing process... all very interesting..From a dull memory the whole thing caused a bit of a rumble amongst the vintage crowd with Bentley specialists of all types being perhaps a tad uncomfortably in the frame for a while..?

I definitely framed this question incorrectly, either that or it seems monetary value is quite the most prevalent thought in the minds of enthusiasts when evaluating what a vehicle might be worth ..?

TimH, seems your first sentence highlights my inability to word the question I had in mind...I can well understand that for those who wish to cover the miles in or on their machines that usability and reliability are most important, and it also seems that originality can be acceptably binned to some degree to modify a vintage machine more road usable in modern traffic situations , thinking brake, water cooling, battery charging and lighting conversions, etc.etc.etc, any or all of which would have the purists up in arms in times past... (-: I would highly value an old Bentley, and as a younger man would have polished it`s engine and perfected it`s paintwork to within an inch of it`s life.... Today, it seems my sense of appreciation has evolved to the extent I would perhaps be more seeking to preserve a measure of it`s history scars and all...As for the "recreations" I would be a customer there if funds permitted....Each to their own.. (-:

Ian it seems you picked up on the brief when you typed of the "feeling" you derive from looking at a true vintage machine compared to viewing a replica/recreation or whatever term might be reasonably applied. In the Bentley dash pics the elderly machine showed a variety of modifications which would have those who value originality tearing their hair out the way that the woodwork was cannibalised to accept modifications which it`s owner thought worthwhile at the time..?? I think the dangling wires were connected to a flasher unit devoid of its protective can no doubt as some sort of quick fix at some time... (-: Pretty sure I met this car at LeMans quite a few years back having been driven there from Scotland, that being the case original or not, it was certainly being enjoyed as opposed to being pampered.. I have also been fortunate enough to see high value cars being enjoyed by their owners in very original condition and being well used and enjoyed in events. One that sticks in my mind is a rather special and rare Riley whose owner had entered it in a production car trial..(-: As ever I have pics somewhere if there is any interest..

Thanks again all for making the effort to respond folks.

Re: Care to discuss..? [Re: Luddite] #595042
14/09/19 01:47 PM
14/09/19 01:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,476
Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
Ian Wegg Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
Ian Wegg  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,476
Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
Luddite: I'm not so familiar with the "Old Number One" case, but if you fancy some light reading the discussion we had about the litigation by an American lawyer against (the late) Stanley Mann can be read here:
Bentley Speed Six - High Court Ruling.

A subsequent thread following Stanley Mann's successful appeal was talked about here:
Conclusion to the Speed six Bentley case.

The case centred on a Speed Six Bentley whose only original part was a short section of chassis. The courts decided that from a legal point of view it is identity and provenance that has importance over originality, which I believe is the point you are making.

In the case of Bentley, the youngest models are approaching 90 years old so very few today will have much originality but the history is what makes them special. Many people love the recreations and good luck to them. For me, given the choice (itself highly unlikely!) I would take an old 3 litre with its dangling wires and chopped up dashboard over a brand new "blower" any day. In your words, "each to their own". I don't consider either position has greater merit than the other.

Yes please to the Riley pictures if you can find time to post them. My grandfather's Riley is the first car I ever travelled in and my love for the marque is equal to that of Bentley (and probably more likely to end in fulfilment!!)

Here a few phone camera snaps I took yesterday at the Goodwood Revival ... not to illustrate any particular point but just for the heck of it!

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater. B4771
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