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#233636 - 11/11/14 10:19 AM Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame
ATL Offline
New to Talk Morgan

Registered: 23/04/13
Posts: 2
Loc: Dorset
I have recentley purchased a Motorhome and i wish to modify my Morgan Roadster so that i can use an A Frame and therefore flat tow it. Is anyone aware of any difficulties i might encounter?

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#233645 - 11/11/14 11:41 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Felix42 Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/12/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Newton Abbot, South Devon UK
You will have to watch the ground clearance carefully.
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John

Silver 2005 S1 Roadster V6 - Henrietta

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#233653 - 11/11/14 12:16 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
MarkB Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 1461
Loc: Florida USA
I have flat towed almost all my Morgans (Series 1, 4/4, and Plus 8) but not behind a motorhome, only behind my SUV (Ford Explorer). And, I have never towed a Roadster. (Not sure what to make of the air con condenser?)

I attach to the Morgan's lower cross member. Dont know if there is access problem with a Roadster.

Towing is easy but the tow bar (A frame) must be low enough, coming off the tow vehicle, to allow some vertical movement as the tow vehicle goes up and down over bumps. A Morgan without a front bumper is much better than one with a front bumper.

Cheers,
_________________________
Mark

1934 SS MX4

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#233664 - 11/11/14 02:01 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: MarkB]
Martyn Culling Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1947
Loc: Snorbans, UK
Whist I am aware of others doing this, unless the Morgan brakes are connected, it's not legal. The towed vehicle becomes a trailer, and although the Morgan is light, I don't think the weight of it plus the A frame is under 750 kG (the point at which trailer brakes become compulsory).

Towing a trailer that should have brakes - but hasn't puts a great load on the brakes of the towing vehicle.

A frames used for recovery do, I think, have some exemptions but there are limits on the total distance they are used for.
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1930 Super Sports Aero 'The Elk'

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#233667 - 11/11/14 02:22 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Paul F Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 20/08/10
Posts: 2244
Loc: Costock, South Nottinghamshire...
Most of the people I know who use Motor Homes and Morgans together use a braked twin axle trailer. This then places weight restrictions on the towing vehicle.

From memory, if your Motor Home is less than 3.5T GVW all will be well. Once you go over 3.5T GVW then, unless you have more than the standard car license, you have a 750kg weight limit again.

We researched this when we had a 7.5T GVW horse box and were looking into how to take a car with us on holiday with the horses. We ended up selling the lorry and buying a Disco 3 and trailer. Which means the Morgan gets left at home when we take the horses to Norfolk. The plus side is that SWMBO can (but chooses not to) drive the Disco / trailer combination but physically was not strong enough to manage the gear box on our Renault Midliner - which could have been a major problem had I been incapacitated 100 miles from home with 2 horses etc to get home.
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Costock, UK
2014 4/4 Rolls Royce Garnet Red
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#233675 - 11/11/14 03:32 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Paul F]
Martyn Culling Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1947
Loc: Snorbans, UK
Two issues here.

Explanation of towing law on Pistonheads

And yes, as it stands, you can't add a trailer for a fourwheeled Morgan to a 7.5 tonne truck. But, what is the weight of said truck converted to carry horses and fully laden? The idea of re-plating it to a lower weight freeing up some weight for a trailer occurs to me. However I've a feeling the speed limits and tachograph regulations might make this a poor option compared to towing a twin horse trailer behind a Discovery.

I'd imagine most readers of this forum are older, passed their car test before 1997, so have B+E on their licences.

Towing safely is not rocket science, but I would advise the novice who has B+E to practise a bit before towing you pride and joy.
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1930 Super Sports Aero 'The Elk'

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#233686 - 11/11/14 04:20 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
nputtick Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1489
Loc: N.Yorks, UK
This page may be of help - braked A-frame towing including an MGB

http://www.armitagetrailers.com/Aframes....sntPxoCO1nw_wcB

Nigel

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#233725 - 11/11/14 07:31 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Felix42 Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/12/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Newton Abbot, South Devon UK
How are the towed car's brakes operated?
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Silver 2005 S1 Roadster V6 - Henrietta

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#233726 - 11/11/14 07:31 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19232
Loc: Devonshire
It states clearly in my 1999 and 1994 +8 handbooks as a CAUTION: If the vehicle is to be towed with the rear wheels in contact with the road and the engine not running, the propshaft should be disconnected.

The oil pump in the gearbox is engine driven and damage may result.

I recall reading a similar statement in my 4/4 Sport handbook.


Edited by 4/4sportsfun (11/11/14 07:34 PM)
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1999 Indigo +8






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#233735 - 11/11/14 08:06 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Martyn Culling]
Paul F Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 20/08/10
Posts: 2244
Loc: Costock, South Nottinghamshire...
Originally Posted By Martyn Culling
Two issues here.

Explanation of towing law on Pistonheads

And yes, as it stands, you can't add a trailer for a fourwheeled Morgan to a 7.5 tonne truck. But, what is the weight of said truck converted to carry horses and fully laden? The idea of re-plating it to a lower weight freeing up some weight for a trailer occurs to me. However I've a feeling the speed limits and tachograph regulations might make this a poor option compared to towing a twin horse trailer behind a Discovery.

I'd imagine most readers of this forum are older, passed their car test before 1997, so have B+E on their licences.

Towing safely is not rocket science, but I would advise the novice who has B+E to practise a bit before towing you pride and joy.


One point to note - vehicles in the UK are based on GVW - gross vehicle weight - thus a vehicle plated at 7.5T GVW has to weigh less than 7.5T when loaded with horses or other load. This is a common misunderstanding - we once viewed a horse box that was 7.2T unladen leaving 300kg for 2 horses, crew and tack - the vendor was convinced he had a good vehicle but it was technically useless.
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Costock, UK
2014 4/4 Rolls Royce Garnet Red
Disco 4
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#233751 - 11/11/14 09:36 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
MarkB Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 1461
Loc: Florida USA
Ok, disregard my comments, as they don't apply. I don't believe we have the laws you have in the UK re trailer weights, nor are any of my Morgans new enough to have engine driven oil pumps in the gearbox. (Not in Moss Box, or Meadows box, etc.)

Cheers,
_________________________
Mark

1934 SS MX4

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#235219 - 20/11/14 09:55 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: +8Rich]
Bumpy Offline

L - Learner Plates On

Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 163
Loc: Warrington
Originally Posted By 4/4sportsfun
It states clearly in my 1999 and 1994 +8 handbooks as a CAUTION: If the vehicle is to be towed with the rear wheels in contact with the road and the engine not running, the propshaft should be disconnected.

The oil pump in the gearbox is engine driven and damage may result.

I recall reading a similar statement in my 4/4 Sport handbook.


I can vouch that the LT77 does not like to revolve when being told after destroying a gearbox on a Range Rover under tow.

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#235236 - 20/11/14 11:15 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Cheshire_David Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 1036
Loc: United Kingdom
LT77 and R380 gearboxes have oil pumps. The LT77 in particular has a fibre oil pump that is naturally weak and subject to breakdown due to swarf.

Towing a Rover engined +4 or +8 for any distance is not to be recommended unless the propshaft is disconnected.

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#235267 - 20/11/14 04:05 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 21899
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
I'll second that!
Fortunately, not from direct experience...
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D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
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#274658 - 15/05/15 06:36 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
dbauck Offline
New to Talk Morgan

Registered: 22/03/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Mersea Island Essex
when towing with the rear wheel on the ground the prop shaft spins the gearbox main shaft, the lay shaft remains still.
The gear box relies on the lay shaft spinning to throw oil onto the main shaft. so towing for some distance will destroy the gear box.
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#275080 - 17/05/15 07:06 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Dean-Royal Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 3570
Loc: UK (up north)
Come on Guys think a little harder...... No need to remove the Prop !!!!! Or get a tow truck......!!!!!

Come on a star for who can tell us how to get round this !!
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#275085 - 17/05/15 07:33 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Dean-Royal]
uvk33n Offline
TM Photographer of 2008
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 788
Pull it backwards
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Ken

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#275232 - 17/05/15 11:05 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
PaulJ Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 16/10/11
Posts: 3222
Loc: Somerset, UK
Take out the plugs and tow it in gear?
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Paul
[Beginning to get the best out of the ARP4]

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#275238 - 18/05/15 04:45 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
PhilipNZ Offline
ZK-Mog
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/04/15
Posts: 547
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Prop the clutch fully in with a stick and leave in gear :-)
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Proud and delighted owner of a beautiful 2015 M3W

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#275287 - 18/05/15 01:34 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Richard - Aus Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/01/12
Posts: 14976
Loc: Perth, WA, Australia
Tow backwards
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Richard
1976 4/4 4 Seater

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#275295 - 18/05/15 01:45 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Richard - Aus]
Hamwich Online   content

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7303
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By Richard - Aus
Tow backwards


On an A frame? How would that help?
_________________________
Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar

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#275304 - 18/05/15 02:32 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Hamwich]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 13/08/13
Posts: 11095
Loc: Salisbury, UK
Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By Richard - Aus
Tow backwards


On an A frame? How would that help?


Front wheels on the road, rears on the frame?
_________________________
Peter,
Tarka the 'Otter Mog
2014 Plus 8



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#275378 - 18/05/15 08:02 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 21899
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
All four on the floor with an A-frame Peter... smile
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Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper

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#275403 - 18/05/15 09:05 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Peter J]
Richard - Aus Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/01/12
Posts: 14976
Loc: Perth, WA, Australia
Originally Posted By Peter J
Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By Richard - Aus
Tow backwards


On an A frame? How would that help?


Front wheels on the road, rears on the frame?


That's what I was thinking....
_________________________
Richard
1976 4/4 4 Seater

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#275405 - 18/05/15 09:10 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Peter J]
Ray Offline

Part of the Furniture

Registered: 05/04/14
Posts: 4134
Loc: Llanelli
Originally Posted By Peter J
Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By Richard - Aus
Tow backwards


On an A frame? How would that help?


Front wheels on the road, rears on the frame?
If you tow like this, first check that your steering locks straight ahead, or you will have a very interesting drive. scared
_________________________
.+8 Now gone for a 1800 4/4. Duratec in bright yellow.

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#275456 - 18/05/15 10:51 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Richard - Aus]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 21899
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Originally Posted By Richard - Aus
Originally Posted By Peter J
Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By Richard - Aus
Tow backwards


On an A frame? How would that help?


Front wheels on the road, rears on the frame?


That's what I was thinking....

Then it would be called a "Suspended tow".
I used to have a suspended tow trailer when doing rally recovery. A flat tow, using an A-frame, all the towed vehicle's wheels are on the deck - used one once to bring a friend's daughter's expired car back from Bridgewater to Cheltenham. Got soaked as had to re-rig the thing in the pouring rain after a couple of miles.
Terminology chaps... smile
_________________________
Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper

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#275458 - 18/05/15 10:58 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Graham, G4FUJ]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 13/08/13
Posts: 11095
Loc: Salisbury, UK
Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
All four on the floor with an A-frame Peter... smile


I thought the issue was that if you tow certain Mogs the gear box is trashed as the oil pump is driven by the input, not output side of the box. So towing on the rear wheels causes the box to turn without proper lubrication = trashed gear box.

A suspended tow with front wheels on the ground means no gear box damage. Perhaps.
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Tarka the 'Otter Mog
2014 Plus 8



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#275459 - 18/05/15 11:00 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Ray Offline

Part of the Furniture

Registered: 05/04/14
Posts: 4134
Loc: Llanelli
I think we are all mixing up, A frames with tow boys, where there is a lift of 2 wheels off the floor.


Edited by Ray (18/05/15 11:04 PM)
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.+8 Now gone for a 1800 4/4. Duratec in bright yellow.

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#275475 - 19/05/15 06:34 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Hamwich Online   content

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7303
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Exactly, hence my comment. An A frame, as Graham pointed out, keeps all the wheels of the towed vehicle on the ground.
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Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar

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#275623 - 19/05/15 06:31 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: Peter J]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 21899
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Originally Posted By Peter J
Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
All four on the floor with an A-frame Peter... smile


I thought the issue was that if you tow certain Mogs the gear box is trashed as the oil pump is driven by the input, not output side of the box. So towing on the rear wheels causes the box to turn without proper lubrication = trashed gear box.

A suspended tow with front wheels on the ground means no gear box damage. Perhaps.


I was just pointing out an error in an earlier comment re: towing method...
(13.5 years approx. running a rally recovery unit, with a Tow Boy - see photo of 127" LR I have posted more than once... A year doing commercial recovery with various suspended tow vehicles in between other work...)

Your first paragraph is correct BTW...
_________________________
Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper

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#275672 - 19/05/15 08:33 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: PhilipNZ]
Dean-Royal Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 3570
Loc: UK (up north)
Originally Posted By PhilipNZ
Prop the clutch fully in with a stick and leave in gear :-)


10/10 .....sending your star in the post

The oil pump will be rotated, as all shafts will be rotated, top gear is recommended
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#275830 - 20/05/15 10:27 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1352
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
By the time you have found an appropriate stick surely you could have disconnected the propshaft at the diff end.
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1992 plus4 connaught green

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#275862 - 20/05/15 01:19 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: rainbowj]
Dean-Royal Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 3570
Loc: UK (up north)
Originally Posted By rainbowj
By the time you have found an appropriate stick surely you could have disconnected the propshaft at the diff end.


Ye but then you have to hang the prop or remove, loosing all oil out of the tail housing sick
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#275867 - 20/05/15 01:33 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1352
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
I don't understand. What is the tail housing?
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John
1992 plus4 connaught green

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#275884 - 20/05/15 03:28 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: rainbowj]
Richard - Aus Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/01/12
Posts: 14976
Loc: Perth, WA, Australia
Originally Posted By rainbowj
I don't understand. What is the tail housing?


Bit of the diff (sort of) that the prop fits/installs into.
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Richard
1976 4/4 4 Seater

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#275910 - 20/05/15 05:55 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1352
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
So why does undoing the propshaft from the diff flange entail loosing any oil?
Unless Morgans are different to every other car I have owned is a sealed item with oil seals on at the input and outputs.
_________________________
John
1992 plus4 connaught green

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#275962 - 20/05/15 09:08 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1352
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
So why does undoing the propshaft from the diff flange entail loosing oil. Unless Morgans are different to every other car I have owned the diff is in a sealed housing with oil seals at input and output shafts.
_________________________
John
1992 plus4 connaught green

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#275965 - 20/05/15 09:41 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Ray Offline

Part of the Furniture

Registered: 05/04/14
Posts: 4134
Loc: Llanelli
Tail shaft is the back of the gearbox. Prop acts as an oil seal. Or at least fits in an oil seal to prevent loss of oil.


Edited by Ray (20/05/15 09:45 PM)
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#276041 - 21/05/15 09:52 AM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1352
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
Well I am amazed. I have had to take the prop shaft off my Discovery to replace the uj bearings, and the drive flange on the rear of the gearbox, same as Morgan, was held by a large central nut and had it's own oil seal. This nut is a swine to remove as I had to, later, replace this said oil seal.
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John
1992 plus4 connaught green

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#311904 - 14/10/15 12:34 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
ATL Offline
New to Talk Morgan

Registered: 23/04/13
Posts: 2
Loc: Dorset
Thanks for the interesting replies, i will certainly investigate the gearbox issue.

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#312876 - 18/10/15 11:13 PM Re: Flat Towing a Morgan on an A Frame [Re: ATL]
Georgetoad Offline
L - Learner Plates On

Registered: 18/11/13
Posts: 143
Loc: Virginia, USA
I flat towed a 1976 MG Midget behind our motorhome for 3000 miles, until the A frame bracket welded to the chassis frame broke off and ended our escapade. Luckily it was at 10 mph so no damage done.
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