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#45798 - 12/06/10 12:54 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: 1560]
mr_tony Offline
Mr Fezza
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 2820
Loc: London
Well i'm in and will send deposit. Rather this than a panamera or s/h db9. It will be cheaper to own than a 612 or Quattroportte and far more exclusive than a 911.

I have a couple of concerns I'll be interested to know more about in terms of the design ethos.

Weight - I think 1250kg is optomistic given the Aero8 weighs 1350kg in S4 guise. What kind of materials will MMC use to lighten the car to make this a reality?

300bhp seems a litle miserly - why not the 335iTT engine for a bit more wallop?

Why a 6 cylinder? If I can afford this I can afford the fuel for a v8?

Why focus on mpg? Given that most owners will do 3k per year if the car does 20mpg it's not really a concern?

Also, 40mpg and 55 litre tank gives 450-500miles range. Great, but with a young family on board, I'll be stopping a lot more frequently anyway, so range not such a priority really for the target segment.

If you can spend 80k+ on a car, the chances are your CO2 footprint has very little to do with what you drive, but what you consume and where you fly anyway.

Also luggage - if this is potentially for continental touring for 2 adults and 2 kids, where am I going to fit the luggage?

Having said that I'm hugely excited and can't wait to see more. As someone potentially in the exact demographic descibed I think this could be a fantastic thing.

I love the concept drawing, I'm thinking 30's streamliners..

The car will be able to stay in the garage long term as a fun high days and holidays car, as well as being something that is just always that little bit different and exclusive with a level of craftsmanship that is just not attainable otherwise at this price level.

I'd also hope for seriously good handling, and the 6pot should be lighter than the V8 which could prio. However, if handling isn't going to be the priority, then I'd hope for a rethink on the power to ensure this goes like the proverbial stabbed rat in a straight line..

Very excited to seem more images..



Edited by mr_tony (12/06/10 02:19 PM)
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#45802 - 12/06/10 02:13 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: mr_tony]
Boshly Offline
NGUNS!!
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By GLLHG
Here we go. Insufficient development budget; sell it in limited number to clients who then have to take it back to the factory in a monotonous procession because MMC just have not got the funds to sort the interface between the Bavarian stuff stuff and their own electrics.
MMC trade on huge client goodwill.
I know you'll all think I'm out of order on this - but that is what will happen and whatever you say about 'it's no worse than my Porsche, Merc, BM etc.', in my book, it just ain't good enough.
G


OK I'll add my 2p's worth.

Yup G, you're right I don't agree smile

I can't of course dispute the fact that, using your words, "... clients who then have to take it back to the factory in a monotonous procession ..." as we know that happens more often than certainly I would like.

However, and also in response to the mention of Porsche Ferrari etc. how else can any manufacturer producing such small numbers get things to work?

We must discount any production of over even a thousand units as it is a totally different ball game.

For production of less than say 500 pa units there is either a cost implication or similar frailties and ongoing 'customer aided development'.

We can quote Weismann on (maybe) superior quality but then we all say that the car is too expensive. The same can be said for Pagani McLaren and and Bugatti though I appreciate they are different beasts. For crying out loud the same can be said about the Gallardo and that has the might of VW behind it AND costs significantly more.

At the other end of the scale who is doing the job that MMC 'ought' to be doing? I can't think of one small niche manufacturer who has an excellent reputation for quality? Atom? No idea but they are much simpler cars. Noble and TVR? 'nuff said there. For Gods sake (and please forgive my blasphemy) but my Westfield was as though it was built from chewing gum and elastc bands and that was a £20k car nearly 10 years ago. I've heard Spykers QC is on a par with TVR's and Caparro is well documented. Ferrari (read Maserati 3200 & 4200?) have much higher production numbers. Lotus have their issues as well and their output is far higher than Morgans.

I really can't think of any one else but would welcome comparisons. I'm sure soembody is doing it 'right' but there can't be many.

So, my conclusion, and where I disagree with you Gerwyn, is the 'not good enough' statement. Compared with who?

I would even go so far as to say we have one choice. We buy our barely affordable (to me anyway) £50-100k hand built unique (as in pretty low numbers) vehicles with the expectation that some fettling is still to be carried out. And after all one thing the factory IS good at is getting the problems sorted in most cases.

Or we all go and buy the latest mass produced affordable cars though those more fortunate of us can still spend heaps and have the pleasure of their McLaren/Ferrari/Lamborghini etc...

None of the above of course means that MMC can/should rest on their laurels or not look to improve QC but just a bit of grounding?

Not a 'statement' by all means, just my opinion until someone can show me where and how it can be done differently? And I have faith in the TM 'massive' laugh2 if anyone can correct me, you lot can thumbs

PS my "£60,000" Range Rover Sport is due in the garage on Monday for the 4th time since December for warranty work after lighting up like a Xmas tree on Thursday with the Gruppen Fuhrer next to me on the way to a TM Surrey possee' dinner.
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Cheers

BtG

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#45804 - 12/06/10 02:18 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: nputtick]
Boshly Offline
NGUNS!!
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By nputtick
"Aimed at the young family" - at £80k?


Are those fortunate few who can afford expensive vehicles not allowed to breed?
_________________________
Cheers

BtG

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#45805 - 12/06/10 02:26 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
mr_tony Offline
Mr Fezza
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 2820
Loc: London
Low volume is difficult - I've heard a few stories from Pagani owners.. In the end it's not the issues it's whether the customer service when you get them on these vehicles is good enough.

I would say on the whole MMC have been incredibly good with me when my Aeros have ever had issues, and this gives me the faith that I could enter into owning a new model safe in the knowledge that should there be any issues, I'll be well looked after.

Having said that, none of my aeros have ever been troublesome, and apart from the odd flat battery which is more down to my unfortunate lack of use than the cars themselves I've had very little to moan about..
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#45808 - 12/06/10 03:45 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: mr_tony]
Simon Offline


Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 7602
Loc: England
I can understand G's concerns and I do not discount all of his points (more on that later); however, my opinion is similar to BtG's and I believe he covers most of the points I would.

Perhaps I am also bias because I think very highly of the people at MMC who I have come in contact with and I know they are genuinely committed to constantly improving the quality of the product and the customer experience. As I have said before, I focus less on problems and more on how they have been resolved and like mr_tony, I have nothing to complain about on that front.

Now, onto G's opinion: I can understand his concern and I believe it is similar to my own about the constant upward trend of the Aero-range pricing. It is my belief that the more people spend, the more they expect. If the quality doesn't match the expectation, it can sour the buying experience and the perception of the brand. While I know MMC are working to address these concerns, there are more and more first time Morgan owners buying into the Aero-range. First time owners will have very different expectations to a repeat customer - as has been said, this isn't like buying a BMW. I believe expectations have to match experience (and this is not simply down to an improvement in quality but also an education of the new owners as to what to expect).

My 2-pence.

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#45809 - 12/06/10 03:57 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
1560 Offline
Goodwood Drifter
Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 3210
Loc: european union
wtf: I have to kick Ferrari-owners out of my Aeromax,
it makes Porsche look like ordinary Golf's and HELL it goes
like stink

can't see why not ordering this car if you prefer coupés like I do,

yesterday I park Maxie in Bxl in the "expensive shopping-area"
a woman walks up "you have RDV with me????"
another bloke, a bit paler than when I first spotted him at the parking-pay-automate, errr if you're Christine, then we have RDV,
he&her looked a bid dissapointed, hope he at least got la¨d

(can imagine on internet: I come with a sportscar, and then i park Maxie laugh2 )

you'll never have those experiences with decent build (and even often breaking down) Porsches or stuff
just don't buy a CP


Edited by 1560 (12/06/10 03:59 PM)
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now: NoMog
sold: A'max/M3W/V6/444seater

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#45810 - 12/06/10 03:58 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: 1560]
1560 Offline
Goodwood Drifter
Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 3210
Loc: european union
told my GF: when Thomas (import) is back from Holiday: I'll order,
she: ooo oldgit redcard

delivery starts end 2012, mine then 2013 february smile

I love that: speccing it (wild this time!!!!!)
(unless new GF)
_________________________
now: NoMog
sold: A'max/M3W/V6/444seater

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#45812 - 12/06/10 04:47 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
kin Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 27/03/07
Posts: 2287
Loc: Rainy City
Originally Posted By Boshly


We can quote Weismann on (maybe) superior quality but then we all say that the car is too expensive. The same can be said for
When I learnt that the new SS is going to cost 125 big ones, my thought was I'd rather buy the Weismann hide ...partly probably because I've owned and driven an aero8 before.

Originally Posted By Boshly
Originally Posted By nputtick
"Aimed at the young family" - at £80k?


Are those fortunate few who can afford expensive vehicles not allowed to breed?
I think you caught our Boshly in a bad mood today grin2

Originally Posted By Simon


Now, onto G's opinion: I can understand his concern and I believe it is similar to my own about the constant upward trend of the Aero-range pricing. It is my belief that the more people spend, the more they expect. If the quality doesn't match the expectation, it can sour the buying experience and the perception of the brand.
I agree with both G and Simon's comments.
Yet again MMC have put their prices way out of reach of us mere mortals 80K! banghead By the time it's going into production, it'll be 90, or even 100K!! And it's only a straight six engine, BOO ooo

When Simon posted a thread a few months ago re new 2+2 Morgan with a figure of 40k, I was thinking that I could go for it even if its cost 60k

Being an ex-Morgan owner I fully aware of its potential problems, but as Simon had mentioned earlier other owners whose going to pay 80K+ for a car would expect far more...just my opinion of course
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#45813 - 12/06/10 05:35 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
GLLHG Offline
South Wales Correspondent
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 26/05/09
Posts: 2190
Loc: South Wales UK
Simon ( and inded Andy, Rich et al)
I have a great amout of empathy with the points that you make and I'm quite happy to confess that my view is a fairly uncharitable one.

I think the point that BtG made about SOMEONE having to keep a bit of soul and romance in the performance car world is at the centre of what we all cherish- iconic cars built by people who care about what they do

To a degree, it's not even a money thing with me 'cos Im a mean so and so anyway

What I DO worry about is that MMC ( quite understandably) has moved and continues to move into new areas with new markets and a new client base/profile.These people will have a much more consumerist approach and be less willing to trade- off hard results for unquantifiable things.

Again, I agree that there are people at the Factory who go to great lengths to help customers with problems but this will be of little use if, as may be the case in some instances, many of these 'new owners', experiencing problems with their new EVAs will react fairly drastically and just dump them. The 'factory helpfulness' just won't have the chance to come into play,

It is therefore absolutely vital that, within their abilities (financial and engineering) MMC are as thorough and well thought out as they can be in what they are doing. I'm not convinced that this is happening. There is too much reaction and not enough proaction.

If I'm wrong, then I am happy to be so If I'm not? Then bad reps don't take long to develop but they do take a hell of a time to get rid of.

It's instructive that people - quite rightly- mention cars such as the Noble, the TVR and others. Surely, this is just the trap we don't want MMC to fall into getcoat

regards,
G
PS Totally off the subject but of immense personal satisfaction, please note that as I write this the GT2 Class at the 24 Heures Du Mans is being led by Oliver Gavin's C6-R 'Vette. Don't you just LOVE those American Vee8s!! happy3wine g
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GLLHG

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#45814 - 12/06/10 05:44 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: kin]
Easter Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1554
MMC is a company with a split personality, Trad range all dexion chassis and wire wheels is for the beer and cloth cap brigade, relatively penniless, the Aero brand, bonded aluminum and 35 series tyres for the champagne [trust-fund]Charlies. The new MMC factory showroom is aimed squarely at the latter, all 'Barcelona' designer chairs and ice-white walls, more botox clinic than enthusiast car showroom. The parochial dealer network will be left to service the former whilst the MMC showroom cream off the top-end stuff, thing is how long can the two brands exist side by side?

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