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#41196 - 03/03/10 08:40 AM New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach
TalkMorgan Offline

The TM in Talk Morgan
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 31/08/06
Posts: 1321
Loc: England
Charles Morgan has announced that a new Morgan model, a 2+2, will be shown for the first time at Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance in August of 2010.

The company are aiming to put the new model into production for 2012-2013, pricing is yet to be confirmed; however, MMC would like to position the Morgan 2+2 at £40,000.

More news on this exciting addition to the Malvern range as and when it comes in.
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#45751 - 11/06/10 11:48 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: TalkMorgan]
h trois Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/08
Posts: 453
Loc: L'Yonne, the Little Thailand.....
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#45762 - 11/06/10 02:42 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: TalkMorgan]
Aeroman Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 7210
Loc: Eton, Berks
Originally Posted By TalkMorgan
MMC would like to position the Morgan 2+2 at £40,000.

More news on this exciting addition to the Malvern range as and when it comes in.


I wish; I know that that was CM's initial price indication. smile

Originally Posted By Alistair
A quick email discussion with Helen at RTCC and apparently Morgan are setting expectation at about £80k.


As it is based on a Supersports chassis with a BMW engine I would have thought than unfortunately £80k was a minimum! frown

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Morgan SP1 (Rocket Red)
Morgan Plus 8 (Rocket Blue)

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#45763 - 11/06/10 02:44 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Aeroman]
TalkMorgan Offline

The TM in Talk Morgan
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 31/08/06
Posts: 1321
Loc: England
Morgan EvaGT 2+2 Sports Coupe - the press release and concept photo are live on the Morgan Car News.
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#45767 - 11/06/10 03:47 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: TalkMorgan]
asbojohn Offline
le Asbo du Bling
Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 23/07/07
Posts: 3698
Loc: Cambridgeshire
Given the August review has anyone seen it in the flesh yet!!!

IRCC the deposit on the SS was £25K and car rolled in at circa £125. So does a £5 deposit put the car at £25K. Would be nice.


Edited by asbojohn (11/06/10 06:17 PM)
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#45784 - 11/06/10 08:28 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: asbojohn]
nputtick Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1481
Loc: N.Yorks, UK
"Aimed at the young family" - at £80k?


Edited by nputtick (11/06/10 08:29 PM)

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#45786 - 11/06/10 10:28 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Aeroman]
GLLHG Offline
South Wales Correspondent
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 26/05/09
Posts: 2190
Loc: South Wales UK
Originally Posted By Aeroman
Originally Posted By TalkMorgan
MMC would like to position the Morgan 2+2 at £40,000.

More news on this exciting addition to the Malvern range as and when it comes in.


I wish; I know that that was CM's initial price indication. smile

Originally Posted By Alistair
A quick email discussion with Helen at RTCC and apparently Morgan are setting expectation at about £80k.


As it is based on a Supersports chassis with a BMW engine I would have thought than unfortunately £80k was a minimum! frown


Here we go. Insufficient development budget; sell it in limited number to clients who then have to take it back to the factory in a monotonous procession because MMC just have not got the funds to sort the interface between the Bavarian stuff stuff and their own electrics.
MMC trade on huge client goodwill.
I know you'll all think I'm out of order on this - but that is what will happen and whatever you say about 'it's no worse than my Porsche, Merc, BM etc.', in my book, it just ain't good enough.
G
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GLLHG

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#45788 - 11/06/10 11:11 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: GLLHG]
kin Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 27/03/07
Posts: 2287
Loc: Rainy City
Originally Posted By GLLHG
Originally Posted By Aeroman
Originally Posted By TalkMorgan
MMC would like to position the Morgan 2+2 at £40,000.

More news on this exciting addition to the Malvern range as and when it comes in.


I wish; I know that that was CM's initial price indication. smile

Originally Posted By Alistair
A quick email discussion with Helen at RTCC and apparently Morgan are setting expectation at about £80k.


As it is based on a Supersports chassis with a BMW engine I would have thought than unfortunately £80k was a minimum! frown


Here we go. Insufficient development budget; sell it in limited number to clients who then have to take it back to the factory in a monotonous procession because MMC just have not got the funds to sort the interface between the Bavarian stuff stuff and their own electrics.
MMC trade on huge client goodwill.
I know you'll all think I'm out of order on this - but that is what will happen and whatever you say about 'it's no worse than my Porsche, Merc, BM etc.', in my book, it just ain't good enough.
G
+1
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#45790 - 12/06/10 06:02 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: kin]
1560 Offline
Goodwood Drifter
Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 3200
Loc: european union
I'm highly interested, my next company-car!!!!!!!!!
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sold: A'max/M3W/V6/444seater

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#45791 - 12/06/10 06:10 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: TalkMorgan]
1560 Offline
Goodwood Drifter
Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 3200
Loc: european union
sended my GF an email:
"got new girlfriend: EVA"
curious if she'll open the mail (and get the message) or go crazy by the title innocent
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sold: A'max/M3W/V6/444seater

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#45798 - 12/06/10 12:54 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: 1560]
mr_tony Offline
Mr Fezza
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 2819
Loc: London
Well i'm in and will send deposit. Rather this than a panamera or s/h db9. It will be cheaper to own than a 612 or Quattroportte and far more exclusive than a 911.

I have a couple of concerns I'll be interested to know more about in terms of the design ethos.

Weight - I think 1250kg is optomistic given the Aero8 weighs 1350kg in S4 guise. What kind of materials will MMC use to lighten the car to make this a reality?

300bhp seems a litle miserly - why not the 335iTT engine for a bit more wallop?

Why a 6 cylinder? If I can afford this I can afford the fuel for a v8?

Why focus on mpg? Given that most owners will do 3k per year if the car does 20mpg it's not really a concern?

Also, 40mpg and 55 litre tank gives 450-500miles range. Great, but with a young family on board, I'll be stopping a lot more frequently anyway, so range not such a priority really for the target segment.

If you can spend 80k+ on a car, the chances are your CO2 footprint has very little to do with what you drive, but what you consume and where you fly anyway.

Also luggage - if this is potentially for continental touring for 2 adults and 2 kids, where am I going to fit the luggage?

Having said that I'm hugely excited and can't wait to see more. As someone potentially in the exact demographic descibed I think this could be a fantastic thing.

I love the concept drawing, I'm thinking 30's streamliners..

The car will be able to stay in the garage long term as a fun high days and holidays car, as well as being something that is just always that little bit different and exclusive with a level of craftsmanship that is just not attainable otherwise at this price level.

I'd also hope for seriously good handling, and the 6pot should be lighter than the V8 which could prio. However, if handling isn't going to be the priority, then I'd hope for a rethink on the power to ensure this goes like the proverbial stabbed rat in a straight line..

Very excited to seem more images..



Edited by mr_tony (12/06/10 02:19 PM)
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#45802 - 12/06/10 02:13 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: mr_tony]
Boshly Offline
NGUNS!!
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By GLLHG
Here we go. Insufficient development budget; sell it in limited number to clients who then have to take it back to the factory in a monotonous procession because MMC just have not got the funds to sort the interface between the Bavarian stuff stuff and their own electrics.
MMC trade on huge client goodwill.
I know you'll all think I'm out of order on this - but that is what will happen and whatever you say about 'it's no worse than my Porsche, Merc, BM etc.', in my book, it just ain't good enough.
G


OK I'll add my 2p's worth.

Yup G, you're right I don't agree smile

I can't of course dispute the fact that, using your words, "... clients who then have to take it back to the factory in a monotonous procession ..." as we know that happens more often than certainly I would like.

However, and also in response to the mention of Porsche Ferrari etc. how else can any manufacturer producing such small numbers get things to work?

We must discount any production of over even a thousand units as it is a totally different ball game.

For production of less than say 500 pa units there is either a cost implication or similar frailties and ongoing 'customer aided development'.

We can quote Weismann on (maybe) superior quality but then we all say that the car is too expensive. The same can be said for Pagani McLaren and and Bugatti though I appreciate they are different beasts. For crying out loud the same can be said about the Gallardo and that has the might of VW behind it AND costs significantly more.

At the other end of the scale who is doing the job that MMC 'ought' to be doing? I can't think of one small niche manufacturer who has an excellent reputation for quality? Atom? No idea but they are much simpler cars. Noble and TVR? 'nuff said there. For Gods sake (and please forgive my blasphemy) but my Westfield was as though it was built from chewing gum and elastc bands and that was a £20k car nearly 10 years ago. I've heard Spykers QC is on a par with TVR's and Caparro is well documented. Ferrari (read Maserati 3200 & 4200?) have much higher production numbers. Lotus have their issues as well and their output is far higher than Morgans.

I really can't think of any one else but would welcome comparisons. I'm sure soembody is doing it 'right' but there can't be many.

So, my conclusion, and where I disagree with you Gerwyn, is the 'not good enough' statement. Compared with who?

I would even go so far as to say we have one choice. We buy our barely affordable (to me anyway) £50-100k hand built unique (as in pretty low numbers) vehicles with the expectation that some fettling is still to be carried out. And after all one thing the factory IS good at is getting the problems sorted in most cases.

Or we all go and buy the latest mass produced affordable cars though those more fortunate of us can still spend heaps and have the pleasure of their McLaren/Ferrari/Lamborghini etc...

None of the above of course means that MMC can/should rest on their laurels or not look to improve QC but just a bit of grounding?

Not a 'statement' by all means, just my opinion until someone can show me where and how it can be done differently? And I have faith in the TM 'massive' laugh2 if anyone can correct me, you lot can thumbs

PS my "£60,000" Range Rover Sport is due in the garage on Monday for the 4th time since December for warranty work after lighting up like a Xmas tree on Thursday with the Gruppen Fuhrer next to me on the way to a TM Surrey possee' dinner.
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BtG

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#45804 - 12/06/10 02:18 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: nputtick]
Boshly Offline
NGUNS!!
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By nputtick
"Aimed at the young family" - at £80k?


Are those fortunate few who can afford expensive vehicles not allowed to breed?
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Cheers

BtG

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#45805 - 12/06/10 02:26 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
mr_tony Offline
Mr Fezza
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 2819
Loc: London
Low volume is difficult - I've heard a few stories from Pagani owners.. In the end it's not the issues it's whether the customer service when you get them on these vehicles is good enough.

I would say on the whole MMC have been incredibly good with me when my Aeros have ever had issues, and this gives me the faith that I could enter into owning a new model safe in the knowledge that should there be any issues, I'll be well looked after.

Having said that, none of my aeros have ever been troublesome, and apart from the odd flat battery which is more down to my unfortunate lack of use than the cars themselves I've had very little to moan about..
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#45808 - 12/06/10 03:45 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: mr_tony]
Simon Offline


Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 7602
Loc: England
I can understand G's concerns and I do not discount all of his points (more on that later); however, my opinion is similar to BtG's and I believe he covers most of the points I would.

Perhaps I am also bias because I think very highly of the people at MMC who I have come in contact with and I know they are genuinely committed to constantly improving the quality of the product and the customer experience. As I have said before, I focus less on problems and more on how they have been resolved and like mr_tony, I have nothing to complain about on that front.

Now, onto G's opinion: I can understand his concern and I believe it is similar to my own about the constant upward trend of the Aero-range pricing. It is my belief that the more people spend, the more they expect. If the quality doesn't match the expectation, it can sour the buying experience and the perception of the brand. While I know MMC are working to address these concerns, there are more and more first time Morgan owners buying into the Aero-range. First time owners will have very different expectations to a repeat customer - as has been said, this isn't like buying a BMW. I believe expectations have to match experience (and this is not simply down to an improvement in quality but also an education of the new owners as to what to expect).

My 2-pence.

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#45809 - 12/06/10 03:57 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
1560 Offline
Goodwood Drifter
Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 3200
Loc: european union
wtf: I have to kick Ferrari-owners out of my Aeromax,
it makes Porsche look like ordinary Golf's and HELL it goes
like stink

can't see why not ordering this car if you prefer coupés like I do,

yesterday I park Maxie in Bxl in the "expensive shopping-area"
a woman walks up "you have RDV with me????"
another bloke, a bit paler than when I first spotted him at the parking-pay-automate, errr if you're Christine, then we have RDV,
he&her looked a bid dissapointed, hope he at least got la¨d

(can imagine on internet: I come with a sportscar, and then i park Maxie laugh2 )

you'll never have those experiences with decent build (and even often breaking down) Porsches or stuff
just don't buy a CP


Edited by 1560 (12/06/10 03:59 PM)
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sold: A'max/M3W/V6/444seater

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#45810 - 12/06/10 03:58 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: 1560]
1560 Offline
Goodwood Drifter
Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 3200
Loc: european union
told my GF: when Thomas (import) is back from Holiday: I'll order,
she: ooo oldgit redcard

delivery starts end 2012, mine then 2013 february smile

I love that: speccing it (wild this time!!!!!)
(unless new GF)
_________________________
now: NoMog
sold: A'max/M3W/V6/444seater

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#45812 - 12/06/10 04:47 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
kin Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 27/03/07
Posts: 2287
Loc: Rainy City
Originally Posted By Boshly


We can quote Weismann on (maybe) superior quality but then we all say that the car is too expensive. The same can be said for
When I learnt that the new SS is going to cost 125 big ones, my thought was I'd rather buy the Weismann hide ...partly probably because I've owned and driven an aero8 before.

Originally Posted By Boshly
Originally Posted By nputtick
"Aimed at the young family" - at £80k?


Are those fortunate few who can afford expensive vehicles not allowed to breed?
I think you caught our Boshly in a bad mood today grin2

Originally Posted By Simon


Now, onto G's opinion: I can understand his concern and I believe it is similar to my own about the constant upward trend of the Aero-range pricing. It is my belief that the more people spend, the more they expect. If the quality doesn't match the expectation, it can sour the buying experience and the perception of the brand.
I agree with both G and Simon's comments.
Yet again MMC have put their prices way out of reach of us mere mortals 80K! banghead By the time it's going into production, it'll be 90, or even 100K!! And it's only a straight six engine, BOO ooo

When Simon posted a thread a few months ago re new 2+2 Morgan with a figure of 40k, I was thinking that I could go for it even if its cost 60k

Being an ex-Morgan owner I fully aware of its potential problems, but as Simon had mentioned earlier other owners whose going to pay 80K+ for a car would expect far more...just my opinion of course
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#45813 - 12/06/10 05:35 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
GLLHG Offline
South Wales Correspondent
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 26/05/09
Posts: 2190
Loc: South Wales UK
Simon ( and inded Andy, Rich et al)
I have a great amout of empathy with the points that you make and I'm quite happy to confess that my view is a fairly uncharitable one.

I think the point that BtG made about SOMEONE having to keep a bit of soul and romance in the performance car world is at the centre of what we all cherish- iconic cars built by people who care about what they do

To a degree, it's not even a money thing with me 'cos Im a mean so and so anyway

What I DO worry about is that MMC ( quite understandably) has moved and continues to move into new areas with new markets and a new client base/profile.These people will have a much more consumerist approach and be less willing to trade- off hard results for unquantifiable things.

Again, I agree that there are people at the Factory who go to great lengths to help customers with problems but this will be of little use if, as may be the case in some instances, many of these 'new owners', experiencing problems with their new EVAs will react fairly drastically and just dump them. The 'factory helpfulness' just won't have the chance to come into play,

It is therefore absolutely vital that, within their abilities (financial and engineering) MMC are as thorough and well thought out as they can be in what they are doing. I'm not convinced that this is happening. There is too much reaction and not enough proaction.

If I'm wrong, then I am happy to be so If I'm not? Then bad reps don't take long to develop but they do take a hell of a time to get rid of.

It's instructive that people - quite rightly- mention cars such as the Noble, the TVR and others. Surely, this is just the trap we don't want MMC to fall into getcoat

regards,
G
PS Totally off the subject but of immense personal satisfaction, please note that as I write this the GT2 Class at the 24 Heures Du Mans is being led by Oliver Gavin's C6-R 'Vette. Don't you just LOVE those American Vee8s!! happy3wine g
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GLLHG

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#45814 - 12/06/10 05:44 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: kin]
Easter Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1554
MMC is a company with a split personality, Trad range all dexion chassis and wire wheels is for the beer and cloth cap brigade, relatively penniless, the Aero brand, bonded aluminum and 35 series tyres for the champagne [trust-fund]Charlies. The new MMC factory showroom is aimed squarely at the latter, all 'Barcelona' designer chairs and ice-white walls, more botox clinic than enthusiast car showroom. The parochial dealer network will be left to service the former whilst the MMC showroom cream off the top-end stuff, thing is how long can the two brands exist side by side?

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#45815 - 12/06/10 05:51 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: kin]
Boshly Offline
NGUNS!!
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By Kin
I agree with both G and Simon's comments.
Yet again MMC have put their prices way out of reach of us mere mortals 80K! By the time it's going into production, it'll be 90, or even 100K!! And it's only a straight six engine, BOO


I don't understand Kin?

Gerwyn says they haven't got a big enough development budget, fair point, but you are complaining that the price is too high? You can't satisfy both those aspects without a much bigger production run; much much bigger than capacity ever can be. So without sounding rude which one do you want?

Simons point, as I read it, was that customers expectations at a higher price point go up; so it is their expectations that should be addressed. That was in response to my comment that I don't think it is possible to attain high quality (read better QC) at tht price point with a small production run. Expectations and of course how these 'issues' are dealt with.

As I said in an email to Simon:

"Low volume + reasonable price (read not extortionate) + fantastic thorough development/top QC is unachievable"

Perm any two from the above IMHO.

Unless of course you believe the profitability of MMC is innordinately large orvthat they are considerably ineffecient which is a completely different argument.

And as for Weismann isn't the coupe in the order of £185k?? Working from memory so prepared to be corrected smile
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BtG

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#45817 - 12/06/10 07:23 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
Simon Offline


Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 7602
Loc: England
Originally Posted By Boshly
Simons point, as I read it, was that customers expectations at a higher price point go up; so it is their expectations that should be addressed.


You read it as I meant it. MMC are constantly working to improve quality; however, as per your comments, the development budget is considerably less than main stream car makers (Porsche make circa 30,000 911s a year and even Aston were aiming for 10,000 AMV8s per annum) and therefore, this should be taken into consideration when judging the product; and this, is where education, customer service comes into play.

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#45818 - 12/06/10 08:04 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
kin Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 27/03/07
Posts: 2287
Loc: Rainy City
Sorry if I've caused confusion, i guess my post was rather too simplied.

I completely understood what G was talking about regarding limited development budget.

I mis-interpreted Simon's post when he said " I believe it is similar to my own about the constant upward trend of the Aero-range pricing." I thought he meant the ever widening price gap between the Trad and the Aero models, so I complained about the lack of 50-70k price range where I belong oops

Now, what I am about to say now would make me petty unpopular, or I am being ignorant about it whichever way you see fit? hide

Yes I do believe MMC is operating on the basis of small production with HUGH profit principle, obvious example is the 50k price difference between Aero8 and SS(both basically the same car albeit one with a different rear end treatment) why? Because they can, they only need to find couple of hundred buyers. TBH I don't blame them and I would do the same as well.

As for the Weismann, I believe it was around £125k mark at the time the SS price was released, I am also working from my fading memory so prepared to be corrected.

All IMHO of course ... where is my flame suit smilie?


Edited by kin (12/06/10 08:54 PM)
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#45823 - 12/06/10 10:47 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: GLLHG]
Aeroman Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 7210
Loc: Eton, Berks
A very interesting thread as it is bringing many issues to the surface, to say nothing of the emails that are winging their way behind the scenes, and it also shows the somewhat bipolar nature of the client base of Morgan.

Firstly Gerwyn's post, which I think was made as a genuine concern about the strategic direction of the Morgan marque that he obviously feels passionate about.
Originally Posted By GLLHG
Here we go. Insufficient development budget; sell it in limited number to clients who then have to take it back to the factory in a monotonous procession because MMC just have not got the funds to sort the interface between the Bavarian stuff and their own electrics.
MMC trade on huge client goodwill.

There is little doubt that the Aero's increased in quality between the first ones and the Series III's, and after a bit of fettling the early ones give reliable service with only one or two major issues, such as the power steering failure (Series I's), rectified by fitting the later system.

The Series IV, and the concomitant AeroMax, have experienced in some cases difficult electrical problems and consequently, quality really took a step backwards though not it all cases; my Aero for instance has been totally reliable, but then it was probably pampered by the works, even if driven hard by the motoring press. smile

Originally Posted By Boshly
I would even go so far as to say we have one choice. We buy our barely affordable (to me anyway) £50-100k hand built unique (as in pretty low numbers) vehicles with the expectation that some fettling is still to be carried out. And after all one thing the factory IS good at is getting the problems sorted in most cases.

I have no issues about getting my car 'fettled' at the works, it gives a reason for a pleasant drive up there and the people in the works are a pleasure to deal with and do a very good job. However, if I lived in Scotland or Italy, or even New Zealand, I am not sure that I would have the same tolerance. Launching the new car at Pebble Beach shows the focus for the new EvaGT's target market and as such, MMC cannot afford to get it wrong. Simon's post adequately covers this point I feel, even if it does not touch on the geography issue.
Originally Posted By Simon
First time owners will have very different expectations to a repeat customer - as has been said, this isn't like buying a BMW. I believe expectations have to match experience (and this is not simply down to an improvement in quality but also an education of the new owners as to what to expect).

I found the following post also interesting, as I have felt for some time that if it were my business, at worst I would have Aero and its siblings. including the LIFEcar in a SBU, and the Trads in another one; very different businesses in my view even if they share a heritage.
Originally Posted By Easter
MMC is a company with a split personality, Trad range all dexion chassis and wire wheels is for the beer and cloth cap brigade, relatively penniless, the Aero brand, bonded aluminum and 35 series tyres for the champagne [trust-fund] Charlies. The new MMC factory showroom is aimed squarely at the latter, all 'Barcelona' designer chairs and ice-white walls, more botox clinic than enthusiast car showroom. The parochial dealer network will be left to service the former whilst the MMC showroom cream off the top-end stuff, thing is how long can the two brands exist side by side?

One of the Dealer's told me a story in Geneva, probably apocryphal, about one of his Trad customers asking if he had any 'second-hand engine oil' as he wanted to change the oil in his car! ooo No offence intended Easter, I also own a 4/4 Sport! hide
MMC build a new botoxed showroom for the upper end of their range and leave the Trads with the traditional Dealer network. It was noticeable that the first Aero SS delivered went to Dick Lovett in Swindon before any of the main Dealers.
Is this the beginning of the split between Dealers in Morgan Trads, and Dealers in Morgan Aero (and siblings)?
Easter's question is very relevant imho and if Morgan take this route, can their quality match the aspirations of new owners coming from Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati and BMW customers, sometimes from the same Dealership? I don't know the answer, but it is a very relevant question?
Originally Posted By MMC
The first 100 cars of a limited run are planned to begin production mid 2012 and the “on-road” price will be competitive for a car of this class.

Lastly, if Morgan are going to continue to play the limited run/edition marketing ploy they have to be honest with their customers. The initial run for the AeroMax was 100-cars and they stuck to it, thus gaining credibility and ensuring robust re-sale values. For the Aero SuperSport I have seen quantities from an initial run of 125-cars to as high as 250-cars, and several figures in between. Nobody currently seems to know how many cars they will produce out of this limited run; how many cars is a limited run?
Now they say for the EvaGT - "The first 100 cars of a limited run are planned", now without wishing to be pedantic what exactly does this mean? Is the limited run 100, or more likely is it the first 100 out of a limited run of, say 1000-cars?
Maybe the lawyers amongst us can explain the meaning, as it will effect the re-sale value of the car and they have a responsibility to their customers and clarity is part of this responsibility.

Sorry for my rather long 2p-worth, but just having watched the England match I am probably feeling somewhat liverish! sick3
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Morgan SP1 (Rocket Red)
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#45826 - 13/06/10 09:05 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Aeroman]
Boshly Offline
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Ok first we are going a bit o/t as this topic was specifically about the new EvaGT. Though all points raised are valid and maybe need a separate thread?

So, with regards to the EvaGT and as it is a valid fiscal comparison can we use the Aero 8 as an indicator?

I am not really intending to justify anything, though as you all know I have a great affection for the marque and for those that produce our cars at MMC.

What I am saying, and which nobody has profferred any suggestions though Gerwyn alluded to in a different context, is this:

Is what we all wish for possible? A £60k to £80k car built in low numbers with some design flair (which I think we all admit it looks like this car has in buckets?) with complete reliability?

Like my recent discussion with my MiL on clairvoyants show me proof, where it is done, and I will be more likely to call for a similar result.

IMO older trads were more likely to have less go wrong from the outset as they were far simpler. This is changing I guess with the newer Roadsters and is certainly not the case with all the modern accoutrements that the present Aero and EvaGT will require.

I apprecaited and acknowledge that The SS is a different kettle of fish as it's price point is higher still. However that was 'justified' to me by the additional costs of producngvthe moulds for the new superformed shape? Whilst I have no idea how accurate that is, ie how much of the £50k increase in cost over the S4 is attributable thus? BUT it does go to show the problems faced by a small manufacturer these days.

Now Gerwyn also mentioned or alluded to inefficiency etc and of course that is always an area that can be improved upon and obviously utilizes costs that could go into improving the product. I'm sure it exists (as it would anywhere) but no idea as to the extent. My brief amateur insight would say definitely room for improvement but nothing drastic? I am of course only referring to production and manufacturing here as I think we all acknowledge marketing and communication could improve and whilst this will of course improve reliability etc it will be more longer term (including the very valid expectations that Simon referred to) and not as drastic a change as if it were manufacturing or developments.

So what next?
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#45827 - 13/06/10 09:48 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
Aeroman Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 7210
Loc: Eton, Berks
Originally Posted By Boshly
So what next?


Put a cheque for £5k in an envelope to MMC and order one Boshers thumbs

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#45829 - 13/06/10 11:49 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Aeroman]
mr_tony Offline
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 2819
Loc: London
I will be doing just that (small discussion with mrs_t to have first I should think though, but given the potential space in the back I don't think I'll have too many issues there..)

Only thing that concerns me is the potential for the SuperSports replacement to arrive and be a firebreathing monster with the TT V8 from BMW which would probably make me drop all family friendly plans and pine enormously for that instead..

I think MMC need to think through their marketing strategy - with not all the SuperSports sold, announcing this will make some folk hang on rather than invest now - not the best move in my books..

I still want to know more about the way they are going to keep the weight down...
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#45831 - 13/06/10 12:08 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Aeroman]
Boshly Offline
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Originally Posted By Aeroman
Originally Posted By Boshly
So what next?


Put a cheque for £5k in an envelope to MMC and order one Boshers thumbs


certainly tempted, looks lovely. Will. Depend on price and ease of ingress and egress wink
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#45832 - 13/06/10 01:04 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
Simon Offline


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Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 7602
Loc: England
Originally Posted By Boshly
A £60k to £80k car built in low numbers with some design flair (which I think we all admit it looks like this car has in buckets?)


Playing the devil's advocate, it is hard to tell this from a CAD generated profile - which to my mind looks like a LIFECar / Aero amalgam; therefore, I cannot admit that it has 'design flair in buckets.' wink

Personally, I hope it deviates from the AM Rapide school of design - take a car (in that case the DB9) and stretch it. While Morgan will follow, and rightly so, the Aero design language, I hope they move it on. Imho the SS has done little to do this and my hope is with the EvaGT, we will see the next generation of Morgan. They have a talented designer and a lot of heritage to work with.

Originally Posted By Boshly


I apprecaited and acknowledge that The SS is a different kettle of fish as it's price point is higher still. However that was 'justified' to me by the additional costs of producngvthe moulds for the new superformed shape? Whilst I have no idea how accurate that is, ie how much of the £50k increase in cost over the S4 is attributable thus? BUT it does go to show the problems faced by a small manufacturer these days.


Based on the above, how likely is it that the EvaGT will be less than the SS? For the reason you state above, and while I would love to see an Aero 8 S4 price point, I believe it will be challenging for the company to achieve this. They have the chassis to work with but it isn't inconceivable to imagine that most of the body panels will be new. That, before you even take into account the development of seals, glass, etc, will be a massive investment. The upside is that the ROI on the SS needs to be achieved in a limited production run - investment divided by circa 250. In the case of the EvaGT, with some luck, they can spread the investment over considerably more units.

As a comparison, it would be interesting to know what the Lotus Evora 2+2 production numbers per annum are and what level of investment LC Ltd made. The Evora, is probably the closest comparable to the hypothetical question that BtG posed.

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#45835 - 13/06/10 01:57 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
asbojohn Offline
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Registered: 23/07/07
Posts: 3698
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Comes on guys as fans of MMC we should be rejoicing the fact that they are not letting the grass grow under them and are trying to move the company along.

I for one would like to see and everyday Morgan at the £50-60k mark, but that would mean becoming a volume producer. ( Well at least in MMC terms)

The problem may be one that has been touched on in earlier comments if every 2 years we are going to see a new model then people may wait to see what is next.

The chances of MMC achieving what they did with the Aeromax are in my mind very remote, so maybe the route should be to have one standard chassis set up on what the platform as this is where external developments costs will be incurred, but offer this with a range of body options, soft-top, targa, hard top but with 5 year production run to justify these costs.
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#45836 - 13/06/10 03:16 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: asbojohn]
Easter Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1554
MMC deserve a round of applause for surviving in the current climate, and another for launching new models, however its the trads that appeal to me and I suspect to many other enthusiasts, endless 'limited' runs doesn't seem a viable long term strategy because I don't see that as a way to expand a loyal customer base

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#45837 - 13/06/10 05:16 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: asbojohn]
Simon Offline


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Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 7602
Loc: England
Originally Posted By asbojohn
Comes on guys as fans of MMC we should be rejoicing the fact that they are not letting the grass grow under them and are trying to move the company along.


Personally, my support of the company is never in question. As for letting the "grass grow" under them and "moving the company along", my points do not contradict these.

I see constant improvement in customer services and customer experience as "moving the company along". In fact, I view winning new customers over, and keeping them happy, as essential to progression of the brand and continued finical stability of the company.

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#45840 - 13/06/10 06:13 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Simon]
1560 Offline
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Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 3200
Loc: european union
STOP WEENING
LET'S discuss the car

Simon: better start a new topic,

ENGINE
I love the noiz of this engine, but wtf: give us the 350bhp version of this engine!!!

ADDENDA
wipers hidden etc. : finaly!!!!! hope they make it a car up to compete with Astons/Porsches on the "details" that make day to day driving a bit mor comfier, once more had troubles with my wipers on the Max a few weeks back

CHASSIS
hope it doesn't get too much longer, I love my Morgans for their agility AND the way the Aero-series stays controlable in a drift (trad is less like that...)

LOOKS
what we can see: I like, Girlfriend doesn't (someone coming out of a Fiat box can't be taken serious crazy2)

WHAT I HOPE MOST: interior/dashboard to stay as simple as possible, but with ventilation-openings towards my feet so I don't freeze like in my Max snow)

come on guys, let's talk about the car!!!!!
(I'll order on when my dealer is back from holiday)
(will make a party out of speccing it)
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#45842 - 13/06/10 07:10 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
nputtick Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1481
Loc: N.Yorks, UK
Originally Posted By Boshly
Originally Posted By nputtick
"Aimed at the young family" - at £80k?
Are those fortunate few who can afford expensive vehicles not allowed to breed?






Of course they are. But to make it a "selling point" is stretching credibility beyond any intelligent limit!

I suspect the +2 part of it will actually be space for 2 suitcases in reality. Getting 2 baby seats in the back, or more to the point, getting the sprogs into them, would be an "interesting" exercise!

I'd love one. I don't have a young family any more, but it wouldn't have been my choice - irrespective of funds - when I did.

I share others' admiration of MMC for having the sheer business bravado to produce cars like this , the Max and SS. But I also agree with the point that the "moderns" and "trads" are now effectively different businesses, and one has to wonder where that strategy will lead.

Nigel


Edited by nputtick (13/06/10 07:25 PM)

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#45845 - 13/06/10 08:34 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: nputtick]
DaveW Offline
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Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: South Yorkshire
The question must be whether one can exist without the other.
And the future of the Trad as we know it must be limited by legislation. I agree with Nigel, that the "+2" must be restricted. A straight six needs a lot of room. The trad doesn't have the length in the engine bay, so where does the space come from? A straight six needs 50% more length than a four or V8....... thinking
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#45847 - 13/06/10 10:05 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: DaveW]
Aeroman Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 7210
Loc: Eton, Berks
Dave: There has been a Trad with a BMW 6-cylinder fitted into it in the past, though not produced by MMC.

However, in the case of the EvaGT the chassis according to the press release is a:
Originally Posted By MMC
developed version of the bonded aluminium chassis of the Morgan Aero SuperSports

And as such there should be plenty of room to shoehorn the BMW straight six into it, with all the ancillary turbo gear.

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Morgan SP1 (Rocket Red)
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#45858 - 14/06/10 01:06 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Aeroman]
mr_tony Offline
Mr Fezza
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 2819
Loc: London
Right then, just one thing rankling with me here - engine choice. And I'll explain why.

The press release goes on about being envionmentally friendly, but I see this as total marketing spin, and potentially actually harmful to this launch.

My concerns follow

1. Fuel consumption as a marketing headline?
Who cares what the tank costs to fill. the owner paid 80k for the car and does 5000 miles a year.

2. Low Co2 footprint.
Great story in terms of the works and the overall lifecycle of the car. Bad story in terms of CO2 levels to run. How many international flights do you think owners take a year?

3. Range
As a GT - range is a mildly interesting marketing tool. 40mpg and a 55 litre tank takes me 450 miles. Great. But few people drive for more than 2 hour stretches. The Bentley Continental GT has an effective range in practice of 200 miles, didn't harm sales..

4. Noise
V8 > V6 S6 F6 in every single application I've ever heard. It's a special car, it needs to sound special, not like a vaccum cleaner.

5. Power to weight will go gown vs SS?
New halo car with less power than outgoing halo car? + more weight.

So overall I think the focus seems to be on 1,2,3 - which make a good press release and will probably ahve a few environmentalists thinking that Morgan are nice people. But if they are that environmental to care, then buying a car will not be something they do, let alone a showy looking one for 80k+..

Whereas points 4,5 which in the end are pretty powerful persuaders (Even if they are basic and we might as enthusiasts feel a little embarassed about it) - and far more important to sales..

Look at the lotus Evora? Universal praise, ncie to look at, but a terrible soundtrack and a percieved lack of power have been the prime contributors to what can only be desribed as glacial sales.. I've still yet to see one anywhere..

Just hope Morgan don't fall for their own hype and forget what makes petrolheads buy cars. And more inmportant what makes Morgan folk buy Morgans. It's got to have the shape, it's got to have wings, have an interior that I just couldn't get on any other car and that definite 'hand made' quality that you just don't get anywhere else.

Sure if the specs are true then I'll be falling over myself to get one, but a bit concerned there is a lot of optimisim in the power / weight calculation right now...


Edited by mr_tony (14/06/10 04:43 PM)
Edit Reason: to be a bit more positive because I really do love it and want one...
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#45866 - 14/06/10 04:41 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: mr_tony]
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
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Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: South Yorkshire
Hmm. If somebody managed to squeeze a straight six in, there must have been bulkhead mods I suspect...... thinking

I agree with Mr Tony that it's an odd choice. Well balanced, but long, so not compact. It will put the weight forward in the chassis - unlike the V6 which has a foot of space between the engine and crosshead. In a given length a longer engine equals less cabin space, so the compromise must be the +2 bit.

But then I'm a Trad man so have nothing more than interested curiousity........... smirk2
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#45872 - 14/06/10 07:05 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: nputtick]
Boshly Offline
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Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By nputtick
Originally Posted By Boshly
Originally Posted By nputtick
"Aimed at the young family" - at £80k?
Are those fortunate few who can afford expensive vehicles not allowed to breed?






Of course they are. But to make it a "selling point" is stretching credibility beyond any intelligent limit!

I suspect the +2 part of it will actually be space for 2 suitcases in reality. Getting 2 baby seats in the back, or more to the point, getting the sprogs into them, would be an "interesting" exercise!

I'd love one. I don't have a young family any more, but it wouldn't have been my choice - irrespective of funds - when I did.

I share others' admiration of MMC for having the sheer business bravado to produce cars like this , the Max and SS. But I also agree with the point that the "moderns" and "trads" are now effectively different businesses, and one has to wonder where that strategy will lead.

Nigel


Hi Nigel

Strategy apart, and that is a valid discussion I still think your comment/quote was a bit innaccurate.

As a sales point the car is aimed at young families. The price in conjunction with that comment is irrelevant.

A four seater Bugatti is to be produced and will also be aimed at young families (as well of course at anyone else who requires 4 seats) but more specifically at those far more wealthy than myself.

As far as I'm concerned we are talking about a production of (and I am guessing) no more than 200 cars a year and thus does not need to be at a low price point to achieve this.

As for your assumption of the size of the seats (and many other 'assumptions' made above) why such a negative assumption? It's the same old same old. Sure critocise or comment when the actual car is announced but until then? FYI I have it on good authority that it will be a 4 seater with more than just token seats.

BTW I also apply the same rationale to our own Simon regarding the taster CAD sketch released and told him at length during the day today, why assu
e it will not match the rendering shown? MMC have produced two dramatic and daring and in keeping with Morgan roots designs in the last few years. Why can't they do it again? Looks like it has 'flair in spades' to me. When I see the actual car I 'may' change my mind, I may not, but until then it looks mighty fine smile

Glass is half full guys cheers
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#45875 - 14/06/10 07:25 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
Trevor Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 25/10/07
Posts: 455
I like what the car represents and applaud MMC for taking the plunge but in truth I find it difficult to comment past that point until the details are firm and a concept has been revealed. cheers

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#45882 - 14/06/10 08:47 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Trevor]
Easter Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1554
20 yrs ago Land Rover were in a similar marketing positon as MMC, albeit with much larger volumes, Defender at one end and Range Rover at the other with nothing in between. Enter Discovery to bridge the product/price gap and the rest is history. sounds easy enough.....

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#45883 - 14/06/10 09:06 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Easter]
GLLHG Offline
South Wales Correspondent
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Registered: 26/05/09
Posts: 2190
Loc: South Wales UK
Originally Posted By Easter
20 yrs ago Land Rover were in a similar marketing positon as MMC, albeit with much larger volumes, Defender at one end and Range Rover at the other with nothing in between. Enter Discovery to bridge the product/price gap and the rest is history. sounds easy enough.....


Nice analogy- let's hope so
regards,
G
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#45887 - 14/06/10 09:44 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: 1560]
nputtick Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1481
Loc: N.Yorks, UK
Setting aside discussion of the car itself, if MMC continues as a two-range manufacturer, ie the "traditionals" and the "supercars", which business line supports the other? Is the profit in the trads or the moderns? If the latter, and the trads are less profitable, will the trads survive? If the former, the price of trads may be affected by profitability of the modern range, and may have to rise to subsidise them? Keeping the two together but as separate business lines will be very challenging.

Food for thought. juggle

Nigel


Edited by nputtick (14/06/10 09:50 PM)

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#45891 - 15/06/10 06:03 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: nputtick]
Boshly Offline
NGUNS!!
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Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By nputtick
Setting aside discussion of the car itself, if MMC continues as a two-range manufacturer, ie the "traditionals" and the "supercars", which business line supports the other? Is the profit in the trads or the moderns?


Both?

I would hope, and understand that this is the case that both lines are profitable. One will always be more profitable than the other at some stage depending on production and costs but I have no doubt MMC are fully aware of the 'value' of the trads in more ways than that, and are simply looking at mainatining the Aero line.

The 'revolution' wink happenend in 1999/2000 they are just trying to maintain that head of steam?? (though I appreciate the concerns of what/how/how much and too much smile )
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#45903 - 15/06/10 08:16 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
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Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 20074
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Originally Posted By Boshly

BTW I also apply the same rationale to our own Simon regarding the taster CAD sketch released and told him at length during the day today, why assume it will not match the rendering shown? MMC have produced two dramatic and daring and in keeping with Morgan roots designs in the last few years. Why can't they do it again? Looks like it has 'flair in spades' to me. When I see the actual car I 'may' change my mind, I may not, but until then it looks mighty fine smile

Glass is half full guys cheers


Had the chance to get very close to the LIFECar on Sunday (but not get under the skin). Wow love, looks a beaut! camera are still in the camera... But, I'm not sure I'd be able to get in/out, nor that there would be enough room for me if I did manage to close the bodywork once I'd entered... laugh2

Cheers,
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#45911 - 15/06/10 09:57 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Graham, G4FUJ]
Boshly Offline
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Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
... But, I'm not sure I'd be able to get in/out, nor that there would be enough room for me if I did manage to close the bodywork once I'd entered... laugh2

Cheers,


You and me both laugh2
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BtG

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#45914 - 15/06/10 12:18 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Trevor]
moggieplus4 Offline

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Registered: 20/02/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Cheshire
I thought the very tasty Weisman (Jaguar lookalike) used a straight six BMW engine. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the prototype Morgan given the outline.

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#45915 - 15/06/10 12:38 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: moggieplus4]
mr_tony Offline
Mr Fezza
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 2819
Loc: London
The weisman does look nice, but it uses the last generation M3 straight 6 with well over 300bhp (326bhp I think) and in a car released 4 years ago.
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#45919 - 15/06/10 03:22 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: mr_tony]
Boshly Offline
NGUNS!!
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Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 4564
Loc: Surrey, UK
I think the new EvaGT may end up at considerably more than 300Bhp and the engine as a whole is far more advanced in emmissions and effeciency than the old M3 engine.

I would take a guess at lighter too?
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#46080 - 18/06/10 01:33 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Boshly]
TalkMorgan Offline

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Registered: 31/08/06
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The Morgan EvaGT ordering system is now live.
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#46820 - 04/07/10 09:59 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: TalkMorgan]
Kiwi Offline
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Registered: 14/06/08
Posts: 123
Loc: Auckland, NZ
Sorry for the delay in joining this thread. Really fascinating.
Firstly, for any manufacturer today, quality must be paramount. My new Aero8 was clearly hand made with all the nuts and bolts hand tightened ! Consequently, on receipt, most were loose or missing. This meant unaligned doors and mirrors, paint worn, trim damaged, etc.
While I love the car, I did expect a higher quality of finish, especially given the price. Also, I don't have the luxury of going back to the factory for some hands-on attention.

For any car over GBP80k, I do expect a high attention to detail.

The Aero 8 is not just for the trust account wallies - it was at the very top of my budget and almost went over, but our dollar rallied in time. I certainly won't be considering an Aero SS or AeroMax, purely on a price basis.

We are all aware that the pricing of the Aero 8 meant MMC were really only breaking even on sales. Obviously, this needed to change hence the move to limited production runs of cars over GBP120k.

My concern is there is nothing in the 'Aero 8 bracket'. I believe the ideal for MMC would be for 3 production types - Trads, Aero 8's (priced profitably), and high end limited run productions.

Manufacturing is always a challenge balancing profitability and being a high quality provider. I've spent to last 20+ years helping manufacturers trying to be both.
_________________________
Cheers,

Steve

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#47445 - 17/07/10 08:52 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: Kiwi]
JJW Offline

Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 21/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: NL
I much enjoyed reading this thread, exellent views and opinions. Should be usefull feedback to MMC. I wonder if they are paying attention??

Thanks,
JJW +4

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#49141 - 16/08/10 07:57 AM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: JJW]
TalkMorgan Offline

The TM in Talk Morgan
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 31/08/06
Posts: 1321
Loc: England
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#49159 - 16/08/10 01:17 PM Re: New Morgan 2+2 to be Revealed at Pebble Beach [Re: TalkMorgan]
TalkMorgan Offline

The TM in Talk Morgan
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 31/08/06
Posts: 1321
Loc: England
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