My Itg filter is ten years old, maybe I should renew it although its still cleans up enough to be able to see the name. The sport sports a cone filter (K&N?). I wondered if any of you have any thoughts on this. Mogsport show an Itg in situe but Techniques no longer seem to recommend Itg. Hmmm. Meabh.

The comments below relates mopre to an injected 4/4 but some aspects are equally common to a plus 4 with injection.
There are a number of inter related issues here: the type of filter element itself ( eg paper, foam, ooiled cotton etc); the siting/packaging issues in terms of picking up a supply of cool dense and non turbulent air

In terms of filter element type, ITG have an excellent name for filtration and flow. I'm not knocking K&N or any of the other makes such as Green, Pipercross etc but in the end I went for an ITG ProFilter element- simply because not only did I get better technical feedback from them ( a very helpful guy there called Andy Jackson) but in all the test info I saw they came out best

The problem which is often found with a a cone filter/ airbox under a trad bonnet is where to site it so that it doesn't pick up warm, turbulent air from the block or the exhaust and to an extent, this is a compromise because the box has to fit into the bonnet space and configuration available

Some dealers reckon that the best place to site to avoid this is on the bulkhead

A way to deal with this same problem is to use a 'closed' induction kit such as the Venom, BMC etc as a way to keep the air in the filter body cool.

Another aspect of this same question is that, in many ways, with an injected car it is good to have the run between the filter box and the MAF sensor as short as possible and not to have the induction pipe into the filter from the air source too long either

I'm still looking at this in relation to my silvertop engine and so far am running an ITG element in the existing fliter housing until I work out exactly what I'm going to do in terms of repackaging the whole thing. My next step might be to stick with the ITG but use their Maxogen housing instead

G

PS if an oiled filter element- of whatever design- is used, it must only be oiled lightly. If it is over-oiled and this gets to the MAF sensor, it will send it haywire

I'm working on this particular problem at the moment...

OK.. I'm not running an injected engine however given I have single rail carbouration (Twin 45's) things won't be that far off.

There is a detailed thread at the following link which may be of use....

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic...20to%20Airbox??

Personally I'm looking for a positively charged cool air induction system.

Having got the engine re-built and into the 4/4 we spent Sat looking at the alignment of the cyl head in comparison to the inner wing edge and the bonnet.

Suffice to say we think we have worked out how to install a direct +ve charge N/A closed air intake system... as far as I know this would be first of type.... and takes queues from the Aero induction system... all be it in concept.

As far as ITG goes,,, I've also seen them come out top in flow tests when they have been objectively tested I would recommend them if you can fit them in.

It is worth doing a lot of research though as there is a lot about flow, +ve and -ve pressure characteristics that need to be thought of before making changes...

The owner of this car from USA at the Beaulieu Centenary meeting last summer would not declare what was under the bonnet and did not want to take the filters off either.

He seemed embarrassed that he had cut holes in the bonnet to allow his air filters to be on the outside?

Do you have a larger pic...

It looks like Siamesed intake manifold with a single SU on each?? would give this kind of external profile.

Sorry, I cropped a larger picture to get this one which is poor resolution if enlarged any more.

Do you know if it was a TR engined car at all.

Andrew,
I guess we're both singing the same song here- Bell's book on 'Tuning Four Stroke Engines'
regards,
G

Thanks for all the replies. I'll stay with the Itg which is mounted directly to the airflow meter in front of the tool box. What I am trying out is a large trunk which brings air from beside the radiator to an inch or so in front of the filter. It might be wishful thinking but if for example I place it behind the fan it certainly blasts air out. thanks again all of you. Meabh.

Isn't the potential problem with that the likelihood of creating a very turbulent air flow- and also the length of the 'runner' perhaps also moving the BHP curve down the rev band? Just a thought

G

Frank,
I think I might have seen this car in West Wales( Haverfordwest) round about the time of the centenary events.
It was in car park, so I only got a cursory look at it but what did strike me was the way the filter elements were attached to the outside surface of the bonnet

The filter boxes themselves were flat 'pan-type' and looked very much like those often found on MGBs using the twin SU set up
Like you, I had no way of seeing under the bonnet so couldn't find out what- if anything- there was bewteen the fdilter box and the actual air intake to the venturi

On a very personal note, I wasn't too keen on the aesthetics

regards,
G

Sorry again. I started our conversation by asking 'what he had under the bonnet' but he never did say. Just appologised for not being able to take off the filters. I dont think he wanted to tell me.

G, I never thought about that. I think the runner tube is at its maximum length and maybe I should take it off. It was an experiment and for my kind of driving I would probably have difficulty determining any improvement. The next thing I am going to try though is Leda shocks> I spoke with a very helpful chap there who asked questions about sprung and unsprung weight and said they would build me a bespoke set. My car has slightly more weight than when it left the works but its just the roll bar so that can.t be much and I'm as light as a feather-ish. Meabh.

Hi,

I've found your thread an interesting read, although I have an older 4/4 with carb'ed CVH, which I have replaced the restrictive standard pancake and box with a Pipercross free flow, looks good, intake roar is nearly as loud as the exhaust! But the reason for me chipping in is, the old system took air from an opening next to the rad, about 2" dia, and ducted in. Is this feasible on your newer cars?

rgds

In fact Nick, that is just the problem with my injected Zetec engine It's a silvertop and the packaging is pretty rough and ready. My inlet duct starts about 4-6" behind the rad on the passenger side inner wing and runs aip to the bulhead where it decants into an air filter box ( ex MG Maestro, would you believe!) The runner is too long an I am convinced that it is giving turbulent flow which might be losing me a bit of power

You can see it here:

http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/34714/Polished_expansion_tank_bottle

regards,
G

PS I'm a cynic- I distrust intake roar as a measure of power!

The CVH model cars is a little better as it actually has an oem ~55mm duct through the inner wheel-arch from which the intake is fed.

That said there seems to be a lot of nasty abrupt bends in the Zetec inlet system.... surely a smooth radius using something like a CDA inlet system would be better even if the routing was the same.

http://www.bmcairfilters.com/infoCDA.asp

Just mount the barrel filter just in front of the heater... Duct the air round in a single smooth radius to the filter housing then onwards to the inlet manifold throttle body assembly.

Got a pic?

Andrew,
This very much mirrors my own current thoughts. I looked hard at the BMC and then switched to ITG's Maxogen. At the moment, we're still looking at the siting/routing issues . One thing for sure, I need to take out what is in effect a nasty right angled bend at the air filter body.
I'll put up a post as I go along
regards,
G

If you get the chance, use a 70mm intake through the inner wing to access the high pressure zone under the wing. The runner lenth will help smooth out any buffeting and provide a cold, positively charged feed to the engine.... just make sure it's sited well in comparison to the wheel (spray) maybe fabricate a protective shield.

I'd be very interested in a solution for the blacktop 1.8 Zetec. This has a standard Focus filter box mounted ahead of the engine, fed by a corrugated hose which extends downwards about 50cm to just below the rad. The outlet of the filter box is connected directly to the MAF, then an "elephant trunk" about 50cm long carries air to the single throttle body. There are lots of bends in this system, though the elephants trunk appears smooth.

I replaced the standard Ford panel filter in mine with a K&N filter, and it did make a small but noticeable improvement, with no change in intake noise.

Presumably an ITG Maxogen system or similar could be fitted, to replace the Focus filter box, but would still require a feed hose, and the MAF housing would have to be accommodated too. I wonder if the Pipercross universal system could be used?

http://www.pipercross.net/fastroad/products_universal.asp

Nigel

ITG do specific packages for different engines I think.. the MAF sensor can be quite sensative therefore it's worth looking at existing kits if they can be used...

Do you have some pics of the current engine packaging?

Andrew,

No specific kit for a trad unfortunately. Andy Jackson did come up with a couple of ideas and sometime over the next month or so I'll get the car up to Coventry and he's going to take a look at it.

There are a couple more photos of the packaging here:

http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/33071/The_Elephants_Trunk#comments

http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/33150/The_Elephant_s_Trunk_2#comments

regards,
G

Hi,

I'm also a cynic, I don't think it adds that much power, but throttle response is much improved....and I love the sound.

By the way, have you checked out Burton Power? they provide all sorts for tuning the whole range of Ford engines plus lots of useful info and guidance.

good luck

I haven't...but I can get one...

cheers

would appreciate taking a look

Burton's are good, if a little expensive in comparison to other suppliers... for the most part I've had most success going to the manufacturer directly. Especially as Morgan parts can be "a little different".

Take my new flywheel for example.... Morgan put a CVH "in-line" rather than transverse and mounted it to a Type 9 gearbox...

On the original Ford flywheel installed the part number has been gound off. I'm guessing by either ford who helped with the original package, or Morgan. Suffice to say getting a replacement part.. or performance version there-of was next to impossible.

As I've moved to using a dowel'd Crank I've had a lightweight competition flywheel made. From recollection the OEM unit was 9kg and the lightweight version is ~5kg and funnily enough is based on a Pinto unit with a different bolt pattern... it really transforms the drivability of the car.

We can now supply these fitted through www.mogworks.co.uk aka Miller Commercial Motors in High Wycombe.

They use Zetec engines in Caterham's, check this out, looks good and does away with the trunking....would there be room?

Westfield World[/url] http://westfield-world.com/Pix/fea/kc7.jpg

rgds

Wow.. that's 5 right angle bends and some pretty crinkled piping... there's got to be gains to be had with some pretty simple smoothing of the routing.

Would it be possible to re-locate the MAF sensor above the throttle body.. turning it horizontal and mounting something like an ITG Maxogen housing directly above it with the Maxogen housing intake pointing forward possibly to a NACA duct in the RHS of the bonnet?

http://www.itgairfilters.com/airboxes.asp?section=maxogenairboxes

There is a 1.8 Focus installation that might be able to be modified slightly to suit.. or at least ITG will have experience of the engine charactereistics and therefore only packaging will be the complication??

We talked about the Focus set up but, of course, I have the slight added problem that my engine is a silvertop ( and therefore arguably a pre-Focus engine). A daft question perhaps, but is that going to mean different chcharcterisitics and so rule out using a Focus 1.8 kit as a basis?

I’m thinking we may be able to replace the existing airbox with a Maxogen BAB65, but it may well not clear the bonnet – the ducting would also be a bit long, but looking at the standard setup I think it may work a little better.

We could leave the Maxogen in the same place as the filter housing is now and perhaps go for a ' +4 supersports-type bulge on the LH side of the bonnet but I'm getting very conflicting data as to whether that inside edge is still a low pressure area

The only other option I can see would be to move the MAF towards the front of the engine bay – this would involve lengthening the wiring, but with only 5 or 6 wires, this wouldn’t be as big a job as you think. This would allow us to hopefully still squeeze an airbox in and run a very short duct. As long as the relative distance from the MAF to the throttle body doesn’t change much, I don't think it should affect the performance.

G

Yes, I've used a fair bit of their stuff- and as you say, the guides in their cataloguecan be a very useful starting point

The Raceline Engineering site is also worth a look

regards,
G

Nope! The underbonnet space and configuration on a trad is a lot more problematic than a Caterham or a Westfield.
I talked to quite a few people about this ( and at the start fondly imagined that what worked in a Caterham would in some cases almost simply 'bolt-over' in terms of space) I soon got 'wised up'

G

PS Nick, isnt that Westie pic showing throttle bodies ( eg Amec, Webcon or Jenvey) going straight in. I COULD go for that- in fact there are loads of kits available and it can also be done on the 4/4 Sport ( The Factory/ Richard Thorne package)

. The problem I have is that I don't particulalry want to go down that route, not least becuase it will, almost certainly, ivolve replacing or at least re-mapping the ECU and I'm a little dubious about this will work with the ancilliaries G

Indeed, you'd probably end up pigggy backing a seperate controller and keeping the OEM unit to do the rest of the stuff... might be worth talking to the Factory though so see if they piggy back or use the OEM controller for the new trottle boddies.

As for the Low/high pressure zone... that's what I'm looking at now...

If you went down throttle bodies though (subject to fitting and testing) I might have a kit that uses high pressure zone cold air feed to supply the intakes without having to cut the bonnet.

I wonder if there's scope to re-jig the heater box on a road car? It sits in a high pressure zone and takes up a lot of space. It's a good place to collect cold air.

On a slightly related topic, I'm about to fashion an 'undertray' for the Roadster to fill the space between the cross tubes and crank pulley. This is for two reasons - it's a big gap and makes the pulley and alternator belt vulnerable to debris being thrown up off the road, and I reckon that it will separate the airflow under the car vs through the radiator. The spoiler blocks some of the air that would ordinarily pass underneath and channels it at the bottom of the radiator, so this should keep the flows apart until just before the pulley, and might even create a pull through the radiator effect. I accept that this is aerodynamic quackery, but it's good to play.

I've fabricated and fitted a front curved spoiler, engine under-tray, rear diff cover and rear diffuser of sorts (similar to that on the new roadster sport.

I was initially worried about over heating, however I think the net result has been positive... with the air flow bieng better managed around the engine without impacting engine running temperatures.

Are you going to mount the front up onto the front splitter you have or just a single plate onto the front of the chassis?

BTW.. the rear of the bonnet is where the Richard Thorne Roadster GT car took it's air intake from.. (2 x 70mm feeds into a reverse fed manifold using an Ali fab'd air box sealed to the bonnet where the heater box is at the moment) but it was designed to run with the windscreen in place... thus creating the high pressure zone.

You can see the bonnet cut-outs in the pic below:

Initially a single plate resting in the chassis bottom - No plans as yet to join it up - It will be suck it and see on the day........
I want to keep the front tube available for jacking, so until I get started I won't know the best way to match it up. It would certainly help to fair-in the spoiler scoop around the radiator bottom tank.
I've wondered about a diff/axle air deflector, but that's as far as it's gone.

I was under the Mog tonight........ actually cleaning the wires........

Some weeks ago I removed all the manifold nuts and applied copperslip to the threads. Just a precaution for when I have to take them off in the future. The next step was to do the same at the joint between manifolds and catalysts. I've changed the washers, lockwashers and nuts on five of the six bolts, the one remaining will need the master cylinder heat shield taking off so that will wait for Saturday, and some pictures will follow. Nearside is easy, but offside is tight access.

While I was under there I was hit by a flash of inspiration. I can use neoprene to duct air from the spoiler to the rad bottom tank, and better still, I can fit an undertray between the overrider irons. They are already drilled. I've already got a piece of carbon fibre in stock so all I need is some aluminium sheet to get this sorted. So hopefully over Easter I can do this job, and also my original plan to box the engine bay in between the cross tubes and crank pulley. It's quite an interesting prospect.