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#494610 - 19/01/18 01:32 PM what hope is there for us?
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4215
Sorry to post a link and to twatter at that, but it makes for depressing watching. To see these tiny chinese kids speaking and understanding english at an age when our kids are pretty limited to put it mildly.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/954307473103454208

The future belongs to them


Edited by howard (19/01/18 01:46 PM)

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#494618 - 19/01/18 02:08 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
deano Offline

Charter Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 5328
Loc: Taunton
Too many of our youngster only have time for TV, laptops and phones.
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#494625 - 19/01/18 02:16 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
Stringers Best Mate Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/13
Posts: 6276
Loc: Northamptonshire UK
These are the sort of conversations I have with my parents. They are avid Daily Mail readers and if it's in there it must be true..! They come out with the generic 'They all do, these days.." and "It's the modern way.." with most conversations, despite anything to the contrary.

Unlike Howard though, they are very positive in their outlook even at 88 & 90yrs of age.

It's like an old grumpy mens drop in centre on here at times, it really is..
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#494627 - 19/01/18 02:30 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
nick w Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 31/03/09
Posts: 2019
Let's just hope they don't all end up finishing every sentance with a question mark like the teacher.....

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#494628 - 19/01/18 02:30 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: Stringers Best Mate]
IvorMog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/04/17
Posts: 782
Loc: Staffordshire
This has got the makings of a right good dust up.

On a slightly different note but very related, have you noticed that the Daily Mail and indeed most other Media is constantly telling us how bad the NHS is.

They always ram all the problems down our throats but never seem to tell us about all the good stuff that goes on all the time and outweighs the bad stuff by an order of magnitude.

We are in danger of talking the Nation into mediocrity rather than focusing on all the positives.
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1999 4/4 1.8 Zetec

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#494631 - 19/01/18 03:00 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: Stringers Best Mate]
Jack The Lad Offline
Posting Desperado
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Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 7775
Loc: The frozen North
They are only winding you up for an excuse to start wearing rubber . innocent





It's like an old grumpy mens drop in centre on here at times, it really is.. [/quote]

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#494636 - 19/01/18 04:20 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: IvorMog]
Paul F Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 20/08/10
Posts: 2278
Loc: Costock, South Nottinghamshire...
Originally Posted By IvorMog

On a slightly different note but very related, have you noticed that the Daily Mail and indeed most other Media is constantly telling us how bad the NHS is.


They have been doing that for years. My late Mother in Law was an avid Mail reader and got to the point that she made herself ill with stress over most bank holidays - worrying about what would happen if she was ill when the Doctor was closed. If I had the time and the ability I would block access to it on our router since swmbo reads the thing every day online. And spends ages browsing through the inane comments too.
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#494642 - 19/01/18 05:03 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1378
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
It really upsets me the way that the NHS is shown as failing. Just two personal instances in the last week. My sister in law fell and broke her hip. Ambulance to GWH hospital. Really warm and funny consultant and next day operation and hip repaired. They would not let hef out until they had talked to her son who pointed out her "weaknesses". They then said she stays there until they have developed and put in place a care and support plan. She will be out sometime next week. What a service.
In 2013 I was diagnosed with type2 diabetes. Visits to the surgery ever 6 months for blood nest and to see a diabetic nurse. With her guidance I have kept it in check and remained off medication. Again what a service.
I have contact with people in the US and they are amazed.
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1992 plus4 connaught green

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#494644 - 19/01/18 05:19 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: rainbowj]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7391
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By rainbowj
It really upsets me the way that the NHS is shown as failing.


I quite agree, John. I think the NHS does an amazing job. It's my belief that the "Failing NHS" narrative suits the agendas of those who would prefer to see the NHS privatised.
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#494649 - 19/01/18 05:44 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
Stringers Best Mate Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/13
Posts: 6276
Loc: Northamptonshire UK
It's probably fairer to say it's being failed..
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#494656 - 19/01/18 05:52 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19446
Loc: Devonshire
That's certainly the way I feel about the NHS I think they have an amazing workforce with too much crap management and Governmental interference.
Leave them alone they are all responsible adults who all know which end is up unlike their financial micromanagement "bosses".
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1999 Indigo +8






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#494660 - 19/01/18 06:23 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
Fox Terrier Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 05/08/15
Posts: 1083
Loc: Luton, Bedfordshire
Going back to the thread for a minute; any generation will reflect the generation that produced them to a great extent. I think that despite their parent’s generation doing their best to stifle initiative and independence by running them around everywhere they want to go and giving them everything they ask for, the young generation coming through today are highly intelligent, motivated and focused witnessed by among other things, the fantastic job they are doing in horrendous circumstances in the armed forces, and, in a completely different field and independent of whatever you political leanings, changing the face of politics during the last election. Just remember that the young are just one section of an interdependent society.
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#494667 - 19/01/18 06:50 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19446
Loc: Devonshire
Back on topic, what I see of the new generation encourages me as they are very positive and caring of other folk not necessarily from their own generation.
There will always be exceptions but they were around when we were all growing up also.

Nothing changes drastically it's just the approach which can take a little more understanding from the stick in the muds.
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1999 Indigo +8






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#494669 - 19/01/18 06:52 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: +8Rich]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7391
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By +8Rich
That's certainly the way I feel about the NHS I think they have an amazing workforce with too much crap management and Governmental interference.
Leave them alone they are all responsible adults who all know which end is up unlike their financial micromanagement "bosses".


+1 to the power of 10


Edited by Hamwich (19/01/18 06:53 PM)
Edit Reason: yes, I know that's still 1 but you get the idea :-)
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#494675 - 19/01/18 08:58 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: Stringers Best Mate]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4215
Originally Posted By Stringers Best Mate
These are the sort of conversations I have with my parents. They are avid Daily Mail readers and if it's in there it must be true..! They come out with the generic 'They all do, these days.." and "It's the modern way.." with most conversations, despite anything to the contrary.

Unlike Howard though, they are very positive in their outlook even at 88 & 90yrs of age.

It's like an old grumpy mens drop in centre on here at times, it really is..


Go on then - show me a video of British 5 year olds chatting away in mandarin. grin2

One thing we are really good at in the UK is complacent self delusion. There are two examples mentioned in this thread - our incomparable armed forces and the NHS the envy of the world. The reality is that we are 38th in the wealth rankings of countries by GDP / head and fall a bit further every year. China, on the other hand, climbs further up every year.

My starting post wasnt negative or positive. It was realist. Shoot the mmessenger by all means but if we carry on doing what we are doing, we will get what we have always got.

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#494679 - 19/01/18 09:38 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
nick w Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 31/03/09
Posts: 2019

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#494681 - 19/01/18 09:45 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
IvorMog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/04/17
Posts: 782
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By howard
Originally Posted By Stringers Best Mate
These are the sort of conversations I have with my parents. They are avid Daily Mail readers and if it's in there it must be true..! They come out with the generic 'They all do, these days.." and "It's the modern way.." with most conversations, despite anything to the contrary.

Unlike Howard though, they are very positive in their outlook even at 88 & 90yrs of age.

It's like an old grumpy mens drop in centre on here at times, it really is..


Go on then - show me a video of British 5 year olds chatting away in mandarin. grin2

One thing we are really good at in the UK is complacent self delusion. There are two examples mentioned in this thread - our incomparable armed forces and the NHS the envy of the world. The reality is that we are 38th in the wealth rankings of countries by GDP / head and fall a bit further every year. China, on the other hand, climbs further up every year.

My starting post wasnt negative or positive. It was realist. Shoot the mmessenger by all means but if we carry on doing what we are doing, we will get what we have always got.


3 questions Howard

1, Where did you get your GDP / head figures from?

2, Do you remember Tiananmen Square? We live in a Democracy.

3, Have you ever worked in a provincial Chinese factory ?
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Bob

1999 4/4 1.8 Zetec

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#494682 - 19/01/18 09:56 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: IvorMog]
Fox Terrier Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 05/08/15
Posts: 1083
Loc: Luton, Bedfordshire
Originally Posted By IvorMog
Originally Posted By howard
Originally Posted By Stringers Best Mate
These are the sort of conversations I have with my parents. They are avid Daily Mail readers and if it's in there it must be true..! They come out with the generic 'They all do, these days.." and "It's the modern way.." with most conversations, despite anything to the contrary.

Unlike Howard though, they are very positive in their outlook even at 88 & 90yrs of age.

It's like an old grumpy mens drop in centre on here at times, it really is..


Go on then - show me a video of British 5 year olds chatting away in mandarin. grin2

One thing we are really good at in the UK is complacent self delusion. There are two examples mentioned in this thread - our incomparable armed forces and the NHS the envy of the world. The reality is that we are 38th in the wealth rankings of countries by GDP / head and fall a bit further every year. China, on the other hand, climbs further up every year.

My starting post wasnt negative or positive. It was realist. Shoot the mmessenger by all means but if we carry on doing what we are doing, we will get what we have always got.


3 questions Howard

1, Where did you get your GDP / head figures from?

2, Do you remember Tiananmen Square? We live in a Democracy.

3, Have you ever worked in a provincial Chinese factory ?


And a fourth question: where in this thread are our armed forces described as (quote) “incomparable”?
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#494687 - 19/01/18 10:40 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1378
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
I thought we were the 6th or 7th biggest economy not 38th,
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John
1992 plus4 connaught green

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#494690 - 19/01/18 11:15 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
Stringers Best Mate Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/13
Posts: 6276
Loc: Northamptonshire UK
Originally Posted By howard

My starting post wasnt negative or positive. It was realist. Shoot the mmessenger by all means but if we carry on doing what we are doing, we will get what we have always got.


You'll be trying to say this is realism too, then..!
_________________________
Steve

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#494691 - 19/01/18 11:28 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
MacMog Offline

Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 21/04/12
Posts: 336
Loc: Washington, DC
Regarding GDP per capita data, Howard is right, according to the CIA:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

However, this data can be misleading. For example, Ireland ranks 12th, while the USA ranks 20th and the UK is 38th. But Ireland's GDP includes tens of billions in corporate profits, most famously Apple, which are paper transactions for tax avoidance schemes.

Looking only at large European countries, Germany is 31st, UK is 38th, and France is 39th. If the EU were a nation, it would rank 45th according to these calculations.


Edited by MacMog (19/01/18 11:48 PM)
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#494701 - 20/01/18 08:14 AM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: MacMog]
pandy Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 7161
Loc: West Paris, France
As Benjamin Disraeli said "There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics"

To return to the original post, I do think that Howard makes a fair point about the learning of foreign languages in the UK. There has long been a complacency about this, the growth of the internet, with it's English language core has exacerbated it.

Language learning has never been started early enough in most schools (different, perhaps in the private sector; at my prep school I started French and Latin at 7 years old). There has also been a failure to make language learning seem relevant to pupils in school, and a failure to teach it in an interesting way.

Dropping the requirement to learn a foreign language from the national curriculum has led to a further fall off as languages are seen as difficult to obtain good GCSE results, a turn-off for for league-table obsessed schools.

It's all very well saying that everyone speaks English now, we don't need to learn anything else, but this is at odds with the stated aims of boosting trade with the rest of the world. It's all very well only speaking English if you are buying, but a different kettle of fish when you are selling. You need to be able to interact with the people you are dealing with, and to have a reasonable understanding of their culture. This is extremely difficult if you don't speak their language.
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#494718 - 20/01/18 09:30 AM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: pandy]
Stewart S Offline
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10473
Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By pandy
As Benjamin Disraeli said "There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics"



I have a (reasonably well researched) theory that that quote was originally Wellington’s but I won’t bore you with my hunch
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#494737 - 20/01/18 11:18 AM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
The Austrian Online   shocked

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 17/10/14
Posts: 3409
Loc: Austria, close to Vienna
Was it Plato or Sokrates who blamed the next generation to have lost all good manners, the will to learn and to serve their country and to be worthless for the future needs of the human race?
🙈
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once: Green M3W; 2013
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#494743 - 20/01/18 11:22 AM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: The Austrian]
BobtheTrain Offline

Charter Member

Registered: 15/04/14
Posts: 5116
Loc: Renfrewshire
Originally Posted By The Austrian
Was it Plato or Sokrates who blamed the next generation to have lost all good manners, the will to learn and to serve their country and to be worthless for the future needs of the human race?
🙈


Alf Garnett.
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#494753 - 20/01/18 11:31 AM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
Richard - Aus Offline

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Registered: 15/01/12
Posts: 14976
Loc: Perth, WA, Australia
I do recall a comment years ago (I think on the BBC) that more people are leaning English in China than speak it elsewhere.
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#494761 - 20/01/18 12:18 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
Burgundymog Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 11/05/14
Posts: 3458
Loc: Essex
I was speaking to a young Rumanian lad the other day his English was so good I asked him where he learnt it. He replied at school. He told me that if you could speak English you could get by any where, France, Germany anywhere. perhaps that is why we don't bother, because we don't have to.
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#494785 - 20/01/18 01:40 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
rainbowj Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 1378
Loc: Purton, nr Swindon UK
It is true about age. I have an Indian friend who, with her husband, has brought up her son to be bi-lingual from birth. He is now about seven and to hear him swop effortlessly from English to Hindi is amazing.
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1992 plus4 connaught green

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#494795 - 20/01/18 02:29 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: Stewart S]
pandy Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 7161
Loc: West Paris, France
Originally Posted By Stewart S
Originally Posted By pandy
As Benjamin Disraeli said "There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics"



I have a (reasonably well researched) theory that that quote was originally Wellington’s but I won’t bore you with my hunch


Mark Twain attributed it Disraeli. It’s always possible that he got it from the Iron Duke.
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#494820 - 20/01/18 04:36 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: IvorMog]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4215
Originally Posted By IvorMog


3 questions Howard

1, Where did you get your GDP / head figures from?


CIA as in https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

Originally Posted By IvorMog
2, Do you remember Tiananmen Square? We live in a Democracy.

3, Have you ever worked in a provincial Chinese factory ?


Irrelevant. I was writing about the education of tiny chinese kids none of whom were at Tianamen Sqaure or work in a provincial factory. Where do either of those come into education? Or indeed to our economic survival long term?

Interestingly the same CIA site gives Hong Kong, the island these kids are on, as 19th in the income league ahead of our 38th. Could education be the reason?

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#494822 - 20/01/18 04:41 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: rainbowj]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4215
Originally Posted By rainbowj
I thought we were the 6th or 7th biggest economy not 38th,


Likely we still are but you have to divide GDP by the population for it to mean anything. If you simply use pure size then China is the worlds wealthiest country according to some sources.

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#494840 - 20/01/18 06:47 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: Richard - Aus]
nick w Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 31/03/09
Posts: 2019
Originally Posted By Richard - Aus
I do recall a comment years ago (I think on the BBC) that more people are leaning English in China than speak it elsewhere.

What wouod be interesting would be to know what percentage of Chinese children can speak English. Because the figure often quoted of how many Chinese children are learning the piano sounds amazing but as a percentage of the population it looks more normal.
Nick

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#494855 - 20/01/18 08:36 PM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: howard]
IvorMog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/04/17
Posts: 782
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By howard
Originally Posted By IvorMog


3 questions Howard

1, Where did you get your GDP / head figures from?


CIA as in https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

Originally Posted By IvorMog
2, Do you remember Tiananmen Square? We live in a Democracy.

3, Have you ever worked in a provincial Chinese factory ?


Irrelevant. I was writing about the education of tiny chinese kids none of whom were at Tianamen Sqaure or work in a provincial factory. Where do either of those come into education? Or indeed to our economic survival long term?

Interestingly the same CIA site gives Hong Kong, the island these kids are on, as 19th in the income league ahead of our 38th. Could education be the reason?



Many different bodies use different types of data to produce statistical models and whilst GDP per Capita is a very important statistic, it can only be used to compare countries with similar types of economies.

Let's say for example that the GDP was the same for 2 countries but in one of them the average working week was 40 hours but the other was 60 hours, which is the most efficient?

In a many Chinese factories there are a lot of "migrant workers" who come in from the agricultural regions and live on site in dormitories. They work long hours and usually only go home to their villages twice a year. It can be a real problem after Chinese new year for example because a proportion of the workers don't come back again.

I've seen the working conditions and Health and Safety standards in a number of Chinese factories and believe me, you would not want to work or live there.

You simply cannot compare this type of economy to a typical European style economy.

I mention Tiananmen Square simply to point out that it's much easier to achieve ones economic goals when the State dictates that the 5 year plan is more important than the individual rights of the population.

China has made big strides in recent years and I am a great admirer of their single mindedness but you simply cannot compare China and the UK in pure statistical terms. China is now into it's 13th 5 year plan and I have no doubt that it will become the Worlds number 1 economy and that it will move forward for example on Human Rights and Global Ecology. But make no mistake, the 5 year plans will always come first.

You say the the Kids you watched speaking English were in Hong Kong.

Firstly, remember that Hong Kong was a British Colony up to 1997 and English was almost like a second Mother tongue to a large proportion of the population.

Secondly, Hong Kong is still a hub of world economic trade where English is the main language so if you want to get on in that society you have to be fluent and many of the parents would have been fluent English speakers because of their business backgrounds.

I don't disagree with you that as a Nation we must up our game to compete going forward but we should also stop talking down our achievements.



Edited by IvorMog (20/01/18 08:38 PM)
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1999 4/4 1.8 Zetec

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#494884 - 21/01/18 05:44 AM Re: what hope is there for us? [Re: BobtheTrain]
auster Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 28/03/15
Posts: 1002
Loc: Vienna Austria
Originally Posted By BobtheTrain
Originally Posted By The Austrian
Was it Plato or Sokrates who blamed the next generation to have lost all good manners, the will to learn and to serve their country and to be worthless for the future needs of the human race?
🙈


Alf Garnett.


rofl
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