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#501674 - 01/03/18 06:09 PM Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage
Scrambledsignals Offline

Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 19/11/13
Posts: 266
Loc: Huntingdon

Wonder if other manufacturers would condone this?

http://a.msn.com/08/en-gb/BBJHe9g?ocid=se

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#501680 - 01/03/18 06:17 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
nick w Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 31/03/09
Posts: 2039
That's an amazing thing isn't it.

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#501690 - 01/03/18 06:37 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
Stewart S Offline
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10518
Loc: Lancashire, England
That’s a poor do isn’t it ?

I bet it goes on with lots of expensive niche vehicles as low mileages are believable and can alter the value so greatly
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#501692 - 01/03/18 06:42 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
sospan Offline
Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 31/05/10
Posts: 6137
Loc: Llanelli
I hope it isn't going on with Morgans. There are a lot of low mileage cars about!!!!!
The term "garage queen" may come into it though.
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#501694 - 01/03/18 06:44 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17354
Loc: South Yorkshire
Greed usually leads to dishonesty in one form or another.

I watched a man clock a BMW 2002 Turbo way back while I was on an audit. He did it on the dining room floor.
I played dumb.............
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2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
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#501696 - 01/03/18 06:52 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
RedThree Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 23/10/12
Posts: 2110
Loc: Furry Boots City
Sadly, pretty much every car with an OBD port can have its mileage set to whatever figure is required using a laptop and the right interface. Fast, cheap and easy.
Wouldn't be surprised if there are a great many dealers routinely tweaking the mileage downwards on any car that doesn't have an independent record of its mileage.
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#501700 - 01/03/18 06:58 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19665
Loc: Devonshire

It's the motor trade have you met more than 3 of their ilk that you would trust - come on now hide..
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1999 Indigo +8






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#501701 - 01/03/18 06:58 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
Budster Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 6382
Loc: Devon
Worth always checking MoT records to see if there are mileage discrepancies.
If the selling dealer knowingly misrepresents the mileage, he will be breaking the law.

In the old days of the trade; dealers who “adjusted” mileages were known as Summertime Motors (always putting the clocks back)
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#501710 - 01/03/18 07:44 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Stewart S]
OZ 4/4 Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 25/11/11
Posts: 2582
Loc: Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
Originally Posted By Stewart S
That’s a poor do isn’t it ?

I bet it goes on with lots of expensive niche vehicles as low mileages are believable and can alter the value so greatly


Wouldn't there be discrepancies with the log book particularly where and older supposedly well maintained car is presented with low mileage ?
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2011 4/4 Bespoke, 1981 Delorean DMC 12

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#501716 - 01/03/18 07:52 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
simonjrw Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 29/03/16
Posts: 813
Loc: Upminster, Essex
If this happened in the UK, It could only be rolled back as far as the last MOT presuming it was over 3 yrs old, younger than that you’d have to rely on service records.......but if they’re prepared to adjust the odometer.............
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#501718 - 01/03/18 08:00 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
exbiker Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 438
Loc: west yorkshire
What possible reason could the factory justify "clocking" the cars mileage??
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#501722 - 01/03/18 08:10 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: OZ 4/4]
Stewart S Offline
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10518
Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By OZ 4/4
Originally Posted By Stewart S
That’s a poor do isn’t it ?

I bet it goes on with lots of expensive niche vehicles as low mileages are believable and can alter the value so greatly


Wouldn't there be discrepancies with the log book particularly where and older supposedly well maintained car is presented with low mileage ?


Recording mileage on the log book in the UK is not compulsary so no one bothers

The previous owner of my last Morgan put 12,000 Miles on the clock in the space of a year inbetween MOT’s - if someone was dishonest 11,000 Miles or more could have easily been wiped off without anyone knowing or being suspicious as Morgans can go for years without hardly being driven
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#501729 - 01/03/18 08:31 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
GLLOQ Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 18/11/13
Posts: 520
Between the 80 '/ 90' I was working in a Wolkswagen Audi garage we were selling a lot of used cars from the French importer's collaborator, 3/4 used car 1/4 new car and 100/100 of used car with mileage counter, currently me meme I can benefit from a so-called Collaborative car that I am obliged to change every 6 months, so I think it does not cheat anymore.

I worked in different luxury car companies very little time who also played with the odometer numbers and sometimes with the numbers that hit the hammer.

So today the investors of cars of collections (Match Number) make me smile, I still have a star for hammer in 5mm of height and the initials tuning fork in 8mm of height.

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#501731 - 01/03/18 08:34 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
GLLOQ Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 18/11/13
Posts: 520
diapason 8mm

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#501736 - 01/03/18 08:41 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17354
Loc: South Yorkshire
In the UK the first 3 years to the first MOT is the vulnerable point.

I remember a local dealer taking 80,000 miles off an 18 month old Cortina Estate and selling it to his mate.

I mixed in strange circles back then.
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2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
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#501744 - 01/03/18 09:11 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
Stringers Best Mate Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/13
Posts: 6288
Loc: Northamptonshire UK
The majority of modern cars have an electronic record within the ECU that can be interrogated for interruptions and distance. Running a modern car with a disconnected speedometer sensor not only causes havoc with numerous small electronic triggers, it also starts this recording process.

It's a level of interrogation that is not readily available at dealer level, I believe.
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#501754 - 01/03/18 09:32 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19665
Loc: Devonshire
So is it only VOSA that can interrogate at that level ?

Or another DOT Dept.
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1999 Indigo +8






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#501761 - 01/03/18 10:29 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: +8Rich]
pandy Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 7250
Loc: West Paris, France
Originally Posted By +8Rich
So is it only VOSA that can interrogate at that level ?

Or another DOT Dept.


Or how about the SFO ?

It's fraud. It's outrageous.

If Ferrari are complicit in this, they should be nailed to the floor for it.
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#501762 - 01/03/18 10:37 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: pandy]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19665
Loc: Devonshire
Originally Posted By pandy
Originally Posted By +8Rich
So is it only VOSA that can interrogate at that level ?

Or another DOT Dept.


Or how about the SFO ?

It's fraud. It's outrageous.

If Ferrari are complicit in this, they should be nailed to the floor for it.


That could well be the case but I suspect the SFO would call on the services of an expert witness which could be DOT sourced I think.

Definitely they should be hung out to dry if proven it's disgraceful.
_________________________
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1999 Indigo +8






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#501765 - 01/03/18 10:50 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
Stringers Best Mate Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/13
Posts: 6288
Loc: Northamptonshire UK
My only experience is with insurance fraud investigations. Not mine, I hasten to add..!
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#501769 - 02/03/18 03:18 AM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Stewart S]
OZ 4/4 Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 25/11/11
Posts: 2582
Loc: Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
Good point Stewart S. I was thinking more of the service log book records. I suppose an unscrupulous seller would simply present a late model, "low" mileage car with no or false service books.
Originally Posted By Stewart S
Originally Posted By OZ 4/4
Originally Posted By Stewart S
That’s a poor do isn’t it ?

I bet it goes on with lots of expensive niche vehicles as low mileages are believable and can alter the value so greatly


Wouldn't there be discrepancies with the log book particularly where and older supposedly well maintained car is presented with low mileage ?


Recording mileage on the log book in the UK is not compulsary so no one bothers

The previous owner of my last Morgan put 12,000 Miles on the clock in the space of a year inbetween MOT’s - if someone was dishonest 11,000 Miles or more could have easily been wiped off without anyone knowing or being suspicious as Morgans can go for years without hardly being driven

_________________________
A Morgan Identified Fastidious Owner...
2011 4/4 Bespoke, 1981 Delorean DMC 12

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#501777 - 02/03/18 08:28 AM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Budster]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4245
Originally Posted By Budster
Worth always checking MoT records to see if there are mileage discrepancies.
If the selling dealer knowingly misrepresents the mileage, he will be breaking the law.

In the old days of the trade; dealers who “adjusted” mileages were known as Summertime Motors (always putting the clocks back)


The adjustment gadgets are freely available on Ebay, and there have been stories of this happening for some time now.I posted about it on either this forum or PH more than 6 months ago. The MoT record isnt much use - the roll back can and is done by the owner so the trick is to do it just before each MoT test. And its not good trying to judge the owner because its quite common for high end sports cars in particular to have a new owner each year.

Have a look at digidash.

and this

and these

In the case of Ferraris, it is possible to cross check the odo reading because the gearbox ECU records time in gear and revs so a bit of quick artithmetic allows the dealer technician to estimate mileage covered which would highlight a big discrepance. Its why buying a car such as that need a PPI.

As for the legal case it looks to me like the typical US legal blackmail from someone with a grudge or on the make. Back in the old days of mechanical odometers and when my father was in the motor trade, it was way more common for Joe Public to defraud by putting the speedo on the end of an electric drill than for a dealer to do so. After all, in a dealership of 200 people, how are you going to keep something like that quiet? And whats the cost if you get caught? Joe can do it almost with impunity.


Edited by howard (02/03/18 08:31 AM)

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#501778 - 02/03/18 08:45 AM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: howard]
mph Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 23/09/16
Posts: 479
Originally Posted By howard

As for the legal case it looks to me like the typical US legal blackmail from someone with a grudge or on the make. Back in the old days of mechanical odometers and when my father was in the motor trade, it was way more common for Joe Public to defraud by putting the speedo on the end of an electric drill than for a dealer to do so. After all, in a dealership of 200 people, how are you going to keep something like that quiet? And whats the cost if you get caught? Joe can do it almost with impunity.


If Joe public, or even the dealer has "clocked" the car that's one thing. If the Manufacturer is directly involved then it's quite a different scenario.

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#501780 - 02/03/18 08:48 AM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
Stringers Best Mate Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/13
Posts: 6288
Loc: Northamptonshire UK
It's all fraud if there is financial gain involved.
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#501790 - 02/03/18 10:30 AM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
NickCW Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 20/02/16
Posts: 1133
Loc: Buckinghamshire
Admittedly not entirely valid in the above scenario but the article is wrong as it is not illegal to adjust the mileage on cars, you can clock a new speedometer to the correct mileage, and you can also adjust from KM/Miles for instance. What is illegal is misrepresentation, ie selling a car that appears to have lower mileage than it actually has and gaining a financial profit from this misrepresentation.

On new cars it is common practice to clock cars, new cars can be clocked a few times (limited by ECU I believe) as they get driven around when shipped, they are usually reset at the dealers. Also some cars are randomly chosen for quality checks and do road tests at the factory, so these are reset at the factory before shipping. Some new cars can be reset 2/3 times, all legally.
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#501813 - 02/03/18 11:57 AM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
sospan Offline
Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 31/05/10
Posts: 6137
Loc: Llanelli
So Ferrari are allegedly complicite in manipulating car values? It could therefore entice new car sales based on high residual values, even appreciation.
“Our cars may be high value to buy, sir, but they will appreciate in value. A good investment for you, sir”.
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#501818 - 02/03/18 12:55 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: sospan]
Stewart S Offline
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10518
Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By sospan
So Ferrari are allegedly complicite in manipulating car values? It could therefore entice new car sales based on high residual values, even appreciation.
“Our cars may be high value to buy, sir, but they will appreciate in value. A good investment for you, sir”.



I think you've hit the nail on the head
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#501820 - 02/03/18 01:07 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
deano Offline

Charter Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 5351
Loc: Taunton
Buy beware comes to mind. When buying a low mileage car do the usual tell tell signs ad up.

I have just bought a low mileage 911 and after inspecting it at the dealer with the wheels removed, confirmed it to be correct.
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#501870 - 02/03/18 04:29 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17354
Loc: South Yorkshire
Matching tyres and matching date codes go a long way in verifying mileage.
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2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4

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#501872 - 02/03/18 04:37 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
NeilL Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/12
Posts: 6496
Loc: Warks
Good ploy Dave! I like that!
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#501888 - 02/03/18 05:03 PM Re: Ferrari admits allowing dealers to adjust mileage [Re: Scrambledsignals]
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17354
Loc: South Yorkshire
It's the concours way Neil........................

Or points may be lost.
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2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4

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