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#543639 - 19/11/18 11:05 AM S5- Paint Issues
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
My car is approaching 2 years old with just over 9k of dry (non--winter) use and now it's having to go back to the factory in the New Year for a re-spray of all four wings (at least).
Micro-blistering of the paint is occurring... I'm told, "..this happens sometimes..."...
Anybody else had this problem and know what the actual cause is?

LWH
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#543640 - 19/11/18 11:14 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
aerotaff Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 1435
On the posetive side you will get all your little stone chips done.


Em

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#543644 - 19/11/18 11:57 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Jack The Lad Offline
Posting Desperado
Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 7767
Loc: The frozen North
Type in Paint Man and search into it and it should help you have a rough idea of the whats and whys of paint .

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#543652 - 19/11/18 01:18 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Jays Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 14003
Loc: Cumbria UK
“ Micro-blistering of the paint is occurring... I'm told, "..this happens sometimes..."..“

On a two year old car? No way should it happen sometime! Bearing in mind that the wings and body are sprayed at the same time, there’s always a chance that the rest might suffer at some stage from the problem. I’d insist that they respray the complete car.
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Former Morgan owner. Gone but hopefully not forgotten!

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#543659 - 19/11/18 02:30 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
deano Offline

Charter Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 5306
Loc: Taunton
Most likely cause is moisture in the air or on the cars surface at the time of spraying.
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#543664 - 19/11/18 03:06 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: aerotaff]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
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Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
[quote=aerotaff]On the posetive side you will get all your little stone chips done.

The paint protection film seems to have been doing its stuff in that regard... no stone chips to speak of so far...
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#543665 - 19/11/18 03:06 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Andy Ed Offline
New to Talk Morgan

Registered: 30/09/18
Posts: 20
Loc: Worcestershire
+1 deano,
Had it occur on a narrowboat I painted a couple of years back, but, could also be evaporation of solvent as previous coat not dried sufficiently.
I would inspect areas that still look ok with a magnifying glass just to be sure.
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#543670 - 19/11/18 04:23 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 13/08/13
Posts: 11077
Loc: Salisbury, UK
We had this on Caroline's Mercedes E350 Coupe when it was 5-6 years old.
Mercedes re-sprayed the car under warranty.

I was told that all Mercedes cars painted a particular red and between specific dates had the problem.

The cause was an unexpected reaction between the primer and the first colour coat, due to a formulation change in the primer. The paint maker didn't think the change was sufficient to need to be declared. The bubbles lifted the clear coat slightly.

You don't say what the colour was, but it does seem to have a greater frequency with red pigments. Very strange.
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#543681 - 19/11/18 05:10 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
Charter Member

Registered: 18/03/09
Posts: 5575
Loc: Hampshire
The coupe required a few attempts unfortunately.
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#543685 - 19/11/18 05:22 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Peter J]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Originally Posted By Peter J
............
You don't say what the colour was, but it does seem to have a greater frequency with red pigments. Very strange.


The paint colour is Kilimanjaro Sand Peter, so not quite in the 'red' spectrum... laugh
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#543690 - 19/11/18 06:01 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Stef Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
Hi LWH
My S5 is in the factory right now for exactly this reason - microblisters on various parts of the car usually at the edges of the paintwork i.e. around the rear lights/rear arches etc. I've not yet had a report from the factory as to why this has occurred and once resprayed I will be expected them to offer a new warranty on the paintwork to guard against the same happening in the future.
My local dealer also told me that they had another S5 going back to remedy the same thing so these seemingly aren't isolated cases!
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#543695 - 19/11/18 06:21 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 21874
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
What colour is your car?
Just curious as I've seen a couple of S5 back in the Aero "shed" lately.
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D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
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#543699 - 19/11/18 06:38 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Graham, G4FUJ]
Stef Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
It's matt silver Graham.
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Porsche 911 (996) Turbo
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#543700 - 19/11/18 06:52 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Originally Posted By Stef
Hi LWH
My S5 is in the factory right now for exactly this reason - microblisters on various parts of the car usually at the edges of the paintwork i.e. around the rear lights/rear arches etc. I've not yet had a report from the factory as to why this has occurred and once resprayed I will be expected them to offer a new warranty on the paintwork to guard against the same happening in the future.
My local dealer also told me that they had another S5 going back to remedy the same thing so these seemingly aren't isolated cases!


Yeah, blistering around edges/wheel arches of rear wings, the side vents to the front wings and along their bottom edge and also between the front wings/valance.

Can I ask if you know whether they are re-spraying the car in its entirety or just the parts where the blistering has manifested itself?

I've just today asked the question of Morgan, via my dealer, what guarantee they can provide re-bits of painted body that can't be seen or where the issue hasn't (yet?) manifested itself and also in relation to the newly sprayed parts particularly given my original manufacturer's warranty will expire next spring.
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#543705 - 19/11/18 07:22 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Dean-Royal Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 3563
Loc: UK (up north)
This infornation is drawn from the General Paint website and i do not in anyway suggest MMC have any issues with their paint or the application of their paint.

Description of problem:
Even the best paints will let water vapors through. When the vapors go inside the film, they can lead to the weakening of the adhesion between different coats. Bubbles containing water may show through.

Causes:
Contamination of the surface before spraying.
Insufficient ground coat.
Insufficient topcoat.
Inappropriate thinner.
Final coat was exposed to high humidity before it was completely hard.
Continuous exposure to high humidity / contaminated air supply.
Residue of sanding water in corners, edges, rebates and below decorative strips.
Insufficient isolation of polyester.

Remedy:
Sand carefully until all the bubbles have disappeared: In other words, if the bubbles are in the topcoat, it will have to be removed. There is always the possibility that the sanding residues fill the holes of the bubbles. The humidity that is withheld may damage the substrate. The only way to get around this kind of problem is to sand all the way through to the bare metal, clean with Valox, sand and repaint.

Note:
The presence of these types of bubbles around the headlights or taillights may be an indication of rust coming form underneath. Some micro holes in the metal might be letting the water through. The bottom of the vehicle should be well protected.


Edited by Dean-Royal (19/11/18 07:25 PM)
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#543715 - 19/11/18 08:07 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Stef Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
I should have an update from the dealer within the next few days as to exactly what the factory have done. There were quite a few panels affected as well as a couple of other paint jobs to be done at the same time:
a) upon receipt of the car when new there was a paint blemish in the middle of the passenger door
b) a stone had flicked up hard into the front wheel arch causing a pimple on the top side of the bodywork and a cracking of the paint (I find it bizarre that Morgan don't line the front wheel arches. It leaves the aluminium exposed to stone chips). I'm getting my dealer to fit liners to ensure this doesn't happen again.

I'll give you a heads up as to exactly what the factory has done once I get the update.
_________________________
Morgan Aero 8 (Series 5)
Porsche 911 (996) Turbo
BMW GSA1200

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#543735 - 19/11/18 09:49 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Jays Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 14003
Loc: Cumbria UK
The problem Morgan has unlike other car manufacturers is that the cars are exposed to the weather on their way down to the first paint shop for prepping and primers and then again to the second paint shop for the colour coat. I know that they do take great pride in their paint finishes which compared to many other manufacturers are pretty good.
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Former Morgan owner. Gone but hopefully not forgotten!

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#543741 - 19/11/18 10:13 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
aerotaff Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 1435
That's a very limp excuse or observation Jays, Morgan are selling 140k motor cars


Em

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#543767 - 20/11/18 06:33 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
andymot Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 11/09/14
Posts: 751
Loc: East Sussex, ENGLAND
I don't see that as an excuse, more a statement of fact, but get the frustration that must obviously be felt by those with cars effected. However I'm sure Morgan do as well, which is why they are putting the issues right back at base. I'd be very disappointed if my car was effected but would take comfort that its being sorted by a paintshop that fully understands Morgans.
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2015 Morgan 4/4 (Wolf tuned engine, steering and suspension)
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#543770 - 20/11/18 07:27 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Jays]
Ale_72 Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 07/03/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Zurich, Milan
Originally Posted By Jays
I know that they do take great pride in their paint finishes which compared to many other manufacturers are pretty good.

Sooner or later I need to take a couple of pics of the great pride on my AeroSS. Why the hell do I forgive everything to this car and this company? love
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2010 Violet Aero Supersports | 2010 White Boxster Spyder

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#543773 - 20/11/18 07:38 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
mph Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 23/09/16
Posts: 460
The only way to address microblistering is to remove all of the coating from the affected area and start again.

Unfortunately there is no way of knowing if it will appear elsewhere at a later date. The only way to ensure that it doesn't is a complete "bare metal" repaint, which I doubt they will undertake. Failing this I'd ask for an extended warranty on the rest of the car.

I've known cars where the coating has been fine for two or three years before microblistering has started. In such cases there is an inherent problem but it may take an event such as a change in storage or environmental conditions to kick start the process.

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#543775 - 20/11/18 07:57 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: aerotaff]
Jays Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 14003
Loc: Cumbria UK
Originally Posted By aerotaff
That's a very limp excuse or observation Jays, Morgan are selling 140k motor cars


Em


My comment wasn’t meant as an excuse. Em. It’s just a fact that the charming motor manufacturer that we all love, has as part of its antiquated charm a not very perfect process in painting.
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Jays
Former Morgan owner. Gone but hopefully not forgotten!

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#543796 - 20/11/18 09:39 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Originally Posted By Stef
I should have an update from the dealer within the next few days as to exactly what the factory have done. There were quite a few panels affected as well as a couple of other paint jobs to be done at the same time:
a) upon receipt of the car when new there was a paint blemish in the middle of the passenger door
b) a stone had flicked up hard into the front wheel arch causing a pimple on the top side of the bodywork and a cracking of the paint (I find it bizarre that Morgan don't line the front wheel arches. It leaves the aluminium exposed to stone chips). I'm getting my dealer to fit liners to ensure this doesn't happen again.

I'll give you a heads up as to exactly what the factory has done once I get the update.


Thanks Stef, most keen to get an update on Morgan's position on this.Also do provide details of the wheel-arch liners you are having fitted.
Cheers!
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#543797 - 20/11/18 09:51 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Dean-Royal]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Originally Posted By Dean-Royal

Causes:
Contamination of the surface before spraying.
Insufficient ground coat.
Insufficient topcoat.
Inappropriate thinner.
Final coat was exposed to high humidity before it was completely hard.
Continuous exposure to high humidity / contaminated air supply.
Residue of sanding water in corners, edges, rebates and below decorative strips.
Insufficient isolation of polyester.



A friend of mine with a specialist engineering company (manufactures high-end equipment for off-shore and marine use) even ventured to suggest that it could be contaminants in the raw aluminium. Apparently some cheaper sources of aluminium (Far East) are renowned for being less than 'pure' in content which could give rise to such problems in finished products.Anybody know where Morgan source their aluminium... innocent
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#543800 - 20/11/18 09:55 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Ale_72 Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 07/03/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Zurich, Milan
Originally Posted By luckywhiteheathe
Anybody know where Morgan source their aluminium... innocent

Alcan Aluminium: Aluminium sheets
British Aluminium: Front longitudinal extrusion, Suspension components extrusions
Radshape: Chassis, Grille, cowl, rear over riders
_________________________
2010 Violet Aero Supersports | 2010 White Boxster Spyder

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#543813 - 20/11/18 10:54 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
Charter Member

Registered: 18/03/09
Posts: 5575
Loc: Hampshire
We bought the 2013 Geneva motor show Coupe. It was used for a lot of PR and other work before it came to us. Not surprisingly the kerb side running board was quite pitted. The roads around the factory are narrow and a little frayed at the edges.There were also couple of other places that needed love.

They completely replaced the bonnets and these have been fine.
They did some parts of the body and these have been fine.

The running boards became a source of pain for both parties sadly. They resprayed them and they bubbled again quickly (3 months) and then again shortly later. In the end the factory replaced the boards completely. Now in 2018 they are bubbling again.

I know a company near to me that specialise in painting aluminium as they restore classic cars, it is likely I will look to them.
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#543943 - 21/11/18 08:55 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Jays]
mph Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 23/09/16
Posts: 460
Originally Posted By Jays
The problem Morgan has unlike other car manufacturers is that the cars are exposed to the weather on their way down to the first paint shop for prepping and primers and then again to the second paint shop for the colour coat. I know that they do take great pride in their paint finishes which compared to many other manufacturers are pretty good.


Primer is porous and can absorb moisture so it's a possibility.

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#544105 - 21/11/18 11:06 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: mph]
MDS61 Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 08/07/15
Posts: 300
Loc: Shropshire
One brand of paint has had these issues (and as stated earlier - Merc Benz product has suffered badly with this micro blistering especially on red vehicles).

The MB warranty process states that all the paint must be removed and the vehicle painted from substrate i.e. bare metal.

This is what I would be asking for here with this S5? I would also NOT be settling with just certain panels, I would want the whole car painted.

You might also have colour mismatch concerns, with just odd panels being painted?

Also what if the un-treated panels "flare-up" in 2 years i.e out of warranty.... ooo
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2004 Roadster S1 3.0 V6 - "Seve"

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#544173 - 22/11/18 02:50 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: MDS61]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Originally Posted By MDS61
The MB warranty process states that all the paint must be removed and the vehicle painted from substrate i.e. bare metal.

This is what I would be asking for here with this S5? I would also NOT be settling with just certain panels, I would want the whole car painted.

You might also have colour mismatch concerns, with just odd panels being painted?

Also what if the un-treated panels "flare-up" in 2 years i.e out of warranty.... ooo



These are all issues that I have already asked to be addressed by Morgan MDS61.. awaiting a response......
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#544201 - 22/11/18 05:27 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 21874
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Originally Posted By Stef
It's matt silver Graham.

Looks as though it is going back together then Stef (16 plate?).
Didn't get a chance to ask any questions of the guys working on it though, sadly.
I rather like the colour thumbs
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D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper

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#544317 - 23/11/18 05:55 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Stef Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
Yes it is the '16 plate Graham. Dealer left me a message yesterday saying they should have it back with them by the back end of next week so I'll find out more about what's been done then. Glad you like the colour!
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Morgan Aero 8 (Series 5)
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#544963 - 27/11/18 09:53 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Hi Stef,
I was just wondering whether you'd had more feedback on your paint issue and warranty going forward?
Cheers.....
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#545269 - 28/11/18 05:49 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Stef Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
Hi Lucky, the car is due back from the factory to my local garage on Friday. I've asked them to get me a full low-down as to what has been done and what sort of warranty the factory are offering on the paintwork. As soon as I have more info I'll let you know.
_________________________
Morgan Aero 8 (Series 5)
Porsche 911 (996) Turbo
BMW GSA1200

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#545410 - 29/11/18 02:14 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Thanks Stef....
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#545558 - 30/11/18 10:25 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Clipper Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 14/03/12
Posts: 3330
Loc: South Yorks
My S5 had to have a paint defect corrected post delivery.

Looks and runs great now, but the various warranty claims must be severely impacting profitability on this model.

MMC needs to improve on getting it right first time.
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#545694 - 30/11/18 09:58 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Dean-Royal Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 3563
Loc: UK (up north)
Beware:-

I have just returned from the Paint Manufacturer in Lebanon after a 4 day Seminar, the latest information is we need to add in the next 2 years 6x Toners that have glass added for effect, apparently the new Audi range (Q8) already has this applied.

Although i have no connection to Mscc i can tel you we (paint suppliers and manufacturers) are having a hell of a time trying to get Water based paint to work, even the big names are constantly re-inventing the product because it is just so complex and un stable compared to Solvent based paints.


Edited by Dean-Royal (30/11/18 10:04 PM)
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#545695 - 30/11/18 10:01 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Clipper Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 14/03/12
Posts: 3330
Loc: South Yorks
Could there be a new Plus Four in Beirut Blue perchance?
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#547276 - 10/12/18 10:02 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Originally Posted By Stef
Hi Lucky, the car is due back from the factory to my local garage on Friday. I've asked them to get me a full low-down as to what has been done and what sort of warranty the factory are offering on the paintwork. As soon as I have more info I'll let you know.


Any update Stef? I'm also still waiting to hear back from Morgan/Dealer as to what they're offering by way of extent of paint renewal and warranty going forward. My car heading back to factory at beginning of the the new year...
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#547502 - 11/12/18 06:12 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Stef Offline
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Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
I'm afraid not as yet Lucky! The car went to the factory on 19th October and was initially supposed to have been returned to the dealer around 3 weeks ago. This didn't happen and then 2 weeks ago they delayed again telling the dealer some excuse that they hadn't realised that the car had paint protection (quite how I've no idea as it's pretty obvious). A call to the dealer today and it still hasn't been returned - they are awaiting an update from the factory!
This is now almost 2 months at the factory and getting pretty frustrating especially as I want to use the car over the Christmas period.
I will update as and when I have further news!
_________________________
Morgan Aero 8 (Series 5)
Porsche 911 (996) Turbo
BMW GSA1200

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#547715 - 12/12/18 03:21 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
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Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Thanks Stef, hugely frustrating I'm sure, although pretty much par for the course when dealing with Morgan.....

They'd be well advised to go on a customer service refresher course although that presupposes they've been on one at all! Why does everything seem to be such a hassle when dealing with them?

Anyway, I hope you hear back soon.... keep me posted.

Cheers!
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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#547728 - 12/12/18 04:51 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
MDS61 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/15
Posts: 300
Loc: Shropshire
This is NOT good customer service, no excuses (even if it is a small car company?) banghead
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#547790 - 12/12/18 09:16 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
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Registered: 18/03/09
Posts: 5575
Loc: Hampshire
I am sorry to report that my experiences of the time it took for the factory to turn around the warranty repairs was often similar to this. If you want to make it happen organise regular calls with them for updates until they realise you are not happy.
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#547831 - 13/12/18 09:50 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Alistair]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
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Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
I think the point, that Morgan seem to consistently fail to recognise, is that as a 'valued' customer you shouldn't have to go through that process Alistair. Particularly having spent +£100k on a car!
The Morgan scale of post-sale customer service seems to range from, at best, indifference to, at the other end, contempt (with not much in between!).
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#547837 - 13/12/18 10:25 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
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Registered: 18/03/09
Posts: 5575
Loc: Hampshire
At one point I lost my temper and sent a very rude email to Steve due to utter frustration. I know they are well intentioned but it is an area of the company that needs significant investment and more focused leadership. Both were nearly replaced with a 2010 Bentley Brooklands Coupe.

The Coupe is so utterly beguiling that it's regular troubles keep its head just above water. The lack of backup leaves a nasty taste. A recent experience with something as simple as a cooling hose was a farce.
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#547867 - 13/12/18 01:44 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Alistair]
Hamwich Offline

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Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7270
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By Alistair
At one point I lost my temper and sent a very rude email to Steve due to utter frustration. I know they are well intentioned but it is an area of the company that needs significant investment and more focused leadership. Both were nearly replaced with a 2010 Bentley Brooklands Coupe.

The Coupe is so utterly beguiling that it's regular troubles keep its head just above water. The lack of backup leaves a nasty taste. A recent experience with something as simple as a cooling hose was a farce.


The tragedy is that it probably doesn't need a massive investment, they could probably hugely improve matters by simply setting up a Project Support Office and employing someone to keep warranty customers updated with progress.

A simple email like "Hi, we ordered your widget from the manufacturer this morning. Delivery is expected on Friday. We will provide you with an update by 17:00 on Friday" would go a long way to alleviating concerns - so long as the communications are regular and the schedule is adhered to.

More or less any PM-type task-based software would make this a doddle to manage. I'd go for something like Teamwork which some of my ex-clients are using very successfully.
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#547911 - 13/12/18 07:29 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Hamwich]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
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Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh

The reality is Tim that sharpening up on the pre-delivery quality control and after-sales service would in all likelihood probably actually save them money in the long-run!


Edited by luckywhiteheathe (13/12/18 07:29 PM)
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#547961 - 14/12/18 07:24 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
taffy Offline
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Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 271
Probably a stupid question but do Morgan ever go to the members of MSCC and ask for feedback which could easily be a recently retired member of the Morgan work force who would only cost a couple of pints of bitter!
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#547967 - 14/12/18 08:34 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Hamwich Offline

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Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7270
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By luckywhiteheathe

The reality is Tim that sharpening up on the pre-delivery quality control and after-sales service would in all likelihood probably actually save them money in the long-run!


Absolutely. Been proven time and time again in industry. The Japanese figured all this stuff out with J Edwards Deming over half a century ago.

I find it literally incredible that some modern manufacturers still don't buy into the concepts and insist on operating at what the Capability Maturity Model describes as Level 0 or 'Individual Heroics'.
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#547977 - 14/12/18 09:35 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: taffy]
Paul F Offline

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Registered: 20/08/10
Posts: 2244
Loc: Costock, South Nottinghamshire...
Originally Posted By taffy
Probably a stupid question but do Morgan ever go to the members of MSCC and ask for feedback which could easily be a recently retired member of the Morgan work force who would only cost a couple of pints of bitter!


A couple of years ago they held 3 focus groups of TM members - 1 each for Classics, 3 wheelers and Aero cars. I went to the one for Classics and was impressed that Steve Morris chaired it and several of his team were there taking lots of notes.
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#547989 - 14/12/18 11:06 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Paul F]
Jays Offline

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Registered: 08/02/11
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Loc: Cumbria UK
Paying lip service I think. I could be in the market for a new Morgan once they release details at next years Geneva show as I really am quite excited about what is coming. But there’s no way I’m going to commit to spending that sort of money for poor quality control and the indifference they show to customers. I feel sad saying that having worked there and have a lot of respect for Steve Morris.
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#547992 - 14/12/18 11:46 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
taffy Offline
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Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 271
Hi Jays,
Its really sad to hear from an "insider" that it seems the Company acknowledges a problem but seem to do bugger all about it. If they are going to target the European/Far Eastern markets more then they wont be as tolerant to "bad quality" than we Brits do!
T
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#547998 - 14/12/18 12:31 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
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Registered: 18/03/09
Posts: 5575
Loc: Hampshire
You are right Taffy.

The Middle and Far East markets will not tolerate that so it will be interesting to watch. I hope it does go well as I still have faith in them.

We bought the Coupe on my birthday six years ago. The car was at the factory with faults and paint issues for 8 out of the next 18 months and the urgency was not apparent at all. That's why I mentioned the process of organised updates.

These cars are a mistress you pay for. Just as well the perks are worth it. They still work out cheaper than Ferrari/Bentley/Aston as well as far lower running costs. It's all a matter of maintaining perspective. We would never be without one now.
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#548032 - 14/12/18 04:48 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Paul F]
Stringers Best Mate Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 16/10/13
Posts: 6271
Loc: Northamptonshire UK
Originally Posted By Paul F
Originally Posted By taffy
Probably a stupid question but do Morgan ever go to the members of MSCC and ask for feedback which could easily be a recently retired member of the Morgan work force who would only cost a couple of pints of bitter!


A couple of years ago they held 3 focus groups of TM members - 1 each for Classics, 3 wheelers and Aero cars. I went to the one for Classics and was impressed that Steve Morris chaired it and several of his team were there taking lots of notes.


Indeed, and back in 2014 I went to an M3W feedback session. I've lost count of the times better communication has been suggested..
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#548040 - 14/12/18 05:21 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
TheCustomer Offline

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Registered: 13/09/15
Posts: 687
I don't know if the Aero feedback session ever happened?

Will
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#548090 - 14/12/18 08:15 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: TheCustomer]
deano Offline

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Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 5306
Loc: Taunton
Originally Posted By TheCustomer
I don't know if the Aero feedback session ever happened?

Will


Never took place to my knowledge.
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#548093 - 14/12/18 08:22 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Jays]
deano Offline

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Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 5306
Loc: Taunton
Originally Posted By Jays
Paying lip service I think. I could be in the market for a new Morgan once they release details at next years Geneva show as I really am quite excited about what is coming. But there’s no way I’m going to commit to spending that sort of money for poor quality control and the indifference they show to customers. I feel sad saying that having worked there and have a lot of respect for Steve Morris.


After my experience of buying my new plus 8 and looking at the S5 package, I decided to go the boring 911 option. Fabulous car no warrenty issues to report.
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#548096 - 14/12/18 08:43 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Jays Offline

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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 14003
Loc: Cumbria UK
I really do feel very sad about Morgan. They produce the most charismatic cars in the automotive world and don’t seem to realise it. To spoil their reputation with poor quality issues and response is something I just don’t understand. I’d love to know what the family members think about it....or perhaps they just aren’t interested anymore.
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Former Morgan owner. Gone but hopefully not forgotten!

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#548106 - 14/12/18 09:51 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Alistair]
+8Rich Offline

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Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19176
Loc: Devonshire
Originally Posted By Alistair
You are right Taffy.

The Middle and Far East markets will not tolerate that so it will be interesting to watch. I hope it does go well as I still have faith in them.


I noticed on a Morgan Facebook page that they have opened a new dealership in Taiwan, it featured a Baby Blue Aero8 S5 lets hope the paints good !
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#548135 - 15/12/18 08:32 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Jays]
Stewart S Online   content
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Originally Posted By Jays
I’d love to know what the family members think about it....or perhaps they just aren’t interested anymore.


Good point J, perhaps because they are not visible in the day to day running, they don’t feel it’s their responsibility as they have people in place to try to deal with these things

It’s more a issue with boutique small scale manufacturing in a very technical industry where standards from the big boys are getting to incredible levels and quality expectations in the whole car buying market are so now high

What I can’t understand though is the lack of communication and the rediculous time frames that people have to wait for just a glimmer of an answer and I know many dealers are in dispair sometimes

The problems don’t go away, they just get worse so better to deal with it quickly

They’ve got nothing to loose only gain by trying to deal with an issue quickly, learn from it and try and make sure it doesn’t happen again

Sounds easy doesn’t it

I know it isn’t that easy as there are some complex problems and supply chain problems further down the line but just getting back to people is a start
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#548140 - 15/12/18 08:51 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
DaveW Offline
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If I had a family business I would poke my nose into every complaint.

I'd be very hands on......
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#548141 - 15/12/18 08:54 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Ale_72 Offline

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It's a pity to hear this. Luckily I always interacted with the factory through my dealer, Borghi. I do not know if it was because of him, or because they have a different channel with the factory, but all my issues have been fixed in a timely manner.
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#548154 - 15/12/18 09:30 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
bmgermany Offline
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Registered: 15/08/14
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Loc: Northern Germany
I have heard some stories from German dealers. It seem the factory wants to save as much money as possible. Neither dealer nor customer seem to be a partner for the factory.

I have business contact with suppliers in England and Germany, this behaviour from Morgan is already unique.

If I were to sell items as expensive as a Morgan, I'd lose interest as a trader or I must be a real enthusiast. For a small factory it is really dangerous only to rely on enthusiasm of all partners. In former time this was a way to stay in buisiness but in the future?


Edited by bmgermany (15/12/18 09:31 AM)
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#548157 - 15/12/18 09:40 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stewart S]
Hamwich Offline

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Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By Stewart S

I know it isn’t that easy as there are some complex problems and supply chain problems further down the line but just getting back to people is a start



Exactly. It may well be that the root cause of many of the problems are not within MMC's control - in which case they need to get their customers to understand and forgive rather than get annoyed and in the worst case litigate.

Frequent, open, and honest communication is the way to achieve it. Clamming up and pretending there is no problem will simply make things worse.
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#548163 - 15/12/18 09:49 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
exbiker Offline
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Registered: 10/07/11
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These are exactly the problems that made me sell my Morgan. I want to drive and enjoy, not wait excessive long periods for repairs.
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#548186 - 15/12/18 11:33 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
andymot Offline

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Registered: 11/09/14
Posts: 751
Loc: East Sussex, ENGLAND
I also was part of the M3W feedback group meeting chaired by Steve Morris. I was far from being a satisfied customer at the time and felt similar disappointment to those with these paint issues. My impression was that Mr Morris did care passionately that customers were satisfied. I don't think it was lip service.

I came away from the meeting however feeling that not all the assembled management team that I met were on the same page as Steve Morris. I felt they were perhaps letting him down. A couple of them just didn't seem to "get it" and almost refused to accept there were any real issues.

What surprised me was they didn't know what each model line was costing in warranty claims. Well they said they didn't! So as many have already said it seems to be partially a resource issue along with no actual system in place to manage customer satisfaction.

Yes they do a great job making some fantastic cars but things can and do go wrong - its how its dealt with that matters - and learning from it.

Having said that I know trad owners who have experienced great after-sales care from the factory.

Regarding paint issues on the S5 -

I think i recall that of the time of the TM factory visit in winter 2016 there was quite a few unpainted bodies laying around while they perfected the front suspension? Production was delayed at the time and was causing some stress on company cash flows? Perhaps the extended wait and maybe resulting rush to get them through production has helped cause the issues?

Seems all very sad really - my Oct 2015 4/4 paint has remained in brilliant condition so I know the factory can-do a fantastic paint job. I really feel for the guys waiting weeks and months for news/return of cars. Such a disappointment. I'd be very tempted to go down for a factory tour and get answers - direct from Mr Morris if possible, who I know does care.


Edited by andymot (15/12/18 11:36 AM)
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#549993 - 24/12/18 01:07 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Stef Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
Originally Posted By luckywhiteheathe
Hi Stef,
I was just wondering whether you'd had more feedback on your paint issue and warranty going forward?
Cheers.....


Hi Lucky - well the car finally arrived back from the factory on Friday afternoon and I must say looks excellent - like new again. I still don't know exactly what has been done or what future warranty is to be offered as the dealer hasn't heard the full lowdown from Morgan as yet. I suspect that only the affected panels were removed from the car and resprayed (not the entire car).
What was a little disappointing was that there were small things that weren't as they were when I gave them the car i.e. a loose wire hanging down in the boot, the clamp on the battery has been put back on in the wrong place so that I can't open the cover for the terminals, my 12V jack lead is missing from the glove box. Small issues that are easily rectified but that just jar somewhat.
Anyway the car does certainly look better than when it was handed over to the factory 2 months ago. I will keep you posted once I know more about the warranty. Have a great Christmas.
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#550012 - 24/12/18 02:46 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
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Registered: 18/03/09
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Loc: Hampshire
It's both annoying and wonderful when you get the car back again. Annoying because it took so long and it never comes back quite right but once you put some miles on it again you just shrug and love it. Damn things.

Hope you have a lovely holiday and put some miles on it, it fixes almost everything.
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#550021 - 24/12/18 04:59 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
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Registered: 13/08/13
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Loc: Salisbury, UK
From talking to the people at the body shop that re-sprayed the E350 there are some well hidden problems within the paint industry that have been brought about largely by the push to make paints ever more environmentally friendly. No one is able to talk about it, it seems.

The big manufactures have some leverage with the particular paint maker concerned, but dear little MMC? I suspect that they are between a rock and a hard place because it would not surprise me if MMC has been bound by a gagging order by the paint maker as a condition of getting some financial compensation for all the work needed.

Sad, but the use of gagging order seems to be the way of the big corporate world now.
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#550037 - 24/12/18 06:28 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Peter J]
MDS61 Offline
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Registered: 08/07/15
Posts: 300
Loc: Shropshire
The owner mentions "what paint warranty will now be on the car?"

FYI most of the prestige VM's give a Lifetime Paint warranty, if you need paintwork on your car (obviously if the work is completed at one of their Bodyshop's).

BMW's - Approved accident repair centre's: "provide a warranty on the vehicle's paintwork - for the lifetime owned".

I am pretty sure Morgan and BMW use the same paint brand (Glasurit)..
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#550152 - 26/12/18 10:22 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: MDS61]
Dean-Royal Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 3563
Loc: UK (up north)
Originally Posted By MDS61
I am pretty sure Morgan and BMW use the same paint brand (Glasurit)..
????,

Last i knew Morgan dont use Glasurit

Keep in mind paint warrenty is only from the Panel to the paint surface, not from the surface to the panel.

Faults developing from surface chips or scratches will not be covered under warrenty.

Mercedes had a big problem with E Classes around about 1997 to 2003, they used inferior metal to produce the front wings, all panels effected were replaced and painted F.O.C (recall)
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#550181 - 26/12/18 12:02 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Dean-Royal]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
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Registered: 03/07/07
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Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Morgan use PPG smile
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#550195 - 26/12/18 01:12 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Lord Sward Offline
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Registered: 14/05/14
Posts: 455
Loc: Grim North
You cannot expect warranty on warranty. The paintwork warranty remains the same, regardless if its just fact a factory refinish.

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#550249 - 26/12/18 05:56 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
TheCoot Offline
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Registered: 27/12/11
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Loc: Midlands
Hi LWH

It's been a whilst since I've been on here. Just read this thread all the way through. I feel your pain. That said I thought I would throw in my two pence worth;

Paint on my S5 - Still perfect - it is also a 2016 car and has done just over 8k in all seasons. Something that occurred to me - are the paint colours that have suffered this standard offerings as mine is not?

MMC Service - I too used to grow frustrated with MMC over their long delays (you will see some of my past comments!) But I have learnt to grow patient with them and I find the whole experience a lot more pleasant. In the two years I have had my car it has probably been with them a good six months BUT I now leave it with them, walk away and let them know they can take their time as long as they need - just so long as the problem is perfectly rectified and does not reoccur - so far so good AND, my car often comes back with other little niggles sorted unexpectedly.

MMC Service contd. - Some years ago (around 8 to be exact) When I had an S3, I visited MMC to meet their I.T. Director (I was I.T. Director for a large national carrier and it was to compare notes). From what I saw of MMC's I.T. infrastructure it was good, but not great and they did not have a dedicated I.T. Director, just someone who'd job it was to handle I.T. (Excellent chap and dedicated but someone who was previously and still was to some degree hands on engineering). This in my view was typical, but a mistake for a company of this size - my point being, I think it was Hamwich that mentioned they should install software to manage customer service - I agree - but whilst ever an organisation looks upon I.T. as a necessary evil rather than an enabler (by not dedicating resource full time along with the right budget, strategy and board buy in), the technology/organisation will always be playing catch up. I have known small and large organisations embrace technology (rather than "lip service" as so many use) and flourish - it still needs people mind (as Hamwich points out - Customer Service personnel) to manage it.

S5 - To keep or not to keep....that is the question? - Two years ago I bought a new Jaguar F Type S - (superb car - superb value). At the time, many people on here said I would ditch the S5 and stick with the F Type. I very nearly did this year and my S5 was up for sale for a few months. I had fallen out of love with it due to all the issues. BUT, two weeks ago, I sold the F Type (whilst the S5 was at the factory!!). Why? Simple - because even though the S5 has been a pain in the proverbial fault wise and the F Type has been a joy, in my view driving the S5 is like nothing else and the more I drove it whilst it was up for sale the more I realised it was special and I would miss it - so it's staying and the F Type went. I am so glad I did not let it go as I now think all the fettling has been done and I would have simply handed someone a great, fettled car to enjoy.

By the way....for the record, I keep my S5 in an air chamber which I'm sure may help look after the paint. Merry Christmas all and Happy new year :-)
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Good things come to those who wait but they've usually been left by those who got there first!


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#550472 - 27/12/18 11:26 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Shooter Offline

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Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 1442
Loc: Oreton, Shropshire
MMC used Glasurit during 2008/9 for sure but they did change at some point after that to a different company.
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#550521 - 28/12/18 12:54 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Shooter]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
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Registered: 13/08/13
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Loc: Salisbury, UK
I think MMC sources its paint from PPG..
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#550528 - 28/12/18 01:41 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Peter J]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
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As stated in post # 550181 above grin2
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#550604 - 28/12/18 09:03 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: luckywhiteheathe]
Lord Sward Offline
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Registered: 14/05/14
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If its not PPG, the Steve Morris has been thanking the wrong company for assisting with Geneva for the last half dozen years or so.

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#550625 - 29/12/18 07:24 AM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Shooter]
Stewart S Online   content
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
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Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By Shooter
MMC used Glasurit during 2008/9 for sure but they did change at some point after that to a different company.


Yes my 2008 Mog paint is Glasurit
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#554333 - 17/01/19 04:11 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
Stef Offline
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Registered: 26/01/16
Posts: 31
Loc: Suffolk
Hi Lucky, well I eventually got a response from the factory as to what works they had done on the car and I quote, "Due to the nature of corrosion present on the vehicle, we had to full strip and repaint the whole of the car."
With regards the warranty for the new paintwork they say, "Should they experience any future problems then we would treat each case individually and investigate from there. There is no set time or policy for any Warranty Repair for Paintwork."

Let me know how you get on with your repairs.

Originally Posted By Stef
Originally Posted By luckywhiteheathe
Hi Stef,
I was just wondering whether you'd had more feedback on your paint issue and warranty going forward?
Cheers.....


Hi Lucky - well the car finally arrived back from the factory on Friday afternoon and I must say looks excellent - like new again. I still don't know exactly what has been done or what future warranty is to be offered as the dealer hasn't heard the full lowdown from Morgan as yet. I suspect that only the affected panels were removed from the car and resprayed (not the entire car).
What was a little disappointing was that there were small things that weren't as they were when I gave them the car i.e. a loose wire hanging down in the boot, the clamp on the battery has been put back on in the wrong place so that I can't open the cover for the terminals, my 12V jack lead is missing from the glove box. Small issues that are easily rectified but that just jar somewhat.
Anyway the car does certainly look better than when it was handed over to the factory 2 months ago. I will keep you posted once I know more about the warranty. Have a great Christmas.
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Morgan Aero 8 (Series 5)
Porsche 911 (996) Turbo
BMW GSA1200

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#554515 - 18/01/19 02:28 PM Re: S5- Paint Issues [Re: Stef]
luckywhiteheathe Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 18/08/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Edinburgh
Thanks for the update Stef. That all sounds very positive. Taking my car back to the dealer early next week to have it transported back to the factory... it's booked in for the 28th.

Will keep you posted.....
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LuckywhiteheatheR

2016 Aero 8
1960 MGA Roadster
2003 Ducati MS 1000

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