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#551610 - 03/01/19 11:31 PM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Heinz Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 3668
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Very interesting, Peter. So it was some guy of the MMC staff you had as a guest?

When I think about it, MMC didn't actually need a new tool, they just machined the hood the other way around with the direction of the louvres. And if you compare pictures of old 1980 Plus 8 with a roadster, it's actually obvious that the new way of making the louvres draws the air in more effectively.
But...it remains a low pressure area.

I would say, however, that the air intake on the open scoop as on the P4Supersport or also on your Plus4 certainly has advantages. That's what I mean because the air intake is much more outside. If you look at the US video, then the area where the scoop is located is not in the direct negative pressure air area as where on the other side the Roadster opening is located. The scoop is located more in front and above where the fabric strips in the video are still blowing. So it is a good thing.

And I recall that the scoop was effective. Ones I changed the overall oval air filter against filter sockets on my former P4SS and the gain was dramatically lower. So, there comes in enough of fresh air to create such a difference.

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#551620 - 04/01/19 07:42 AM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Heinz]
Rog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 31/05/12
Posts: 856
Loc: Sumerset
Originally Posted By Heinz
Since I have an aluminum radiator in my 4/4, two things have changed. And I think it has something to do with the fact that this new radiator is wider and deeper.

The first thing I noticed was that now even more cold fresh air is being sucked up directly behind the radiator. That's good and really noticable during acceleration because my airbox is right behind the radiator...with the intake hole facing down.

The second thing I notice with my 4/4 is negative, but it's also an effect of the larger radiator: There's even less air flowing through the radiator, because the larger amount of fresh air coming from directly behind the radiator in form of an upstream from below will reduce the flow of air through the radiator even more. One air flow blocks the other.

So I notice quite clearly that the engine becomes much warmer at higher speeds, so from 140 km/h, than with the smaller original plastic radiator in the past. If it used to be 90 degrees, it's now 105 degrees.

This is a dilemma, and I want to experiment with a base plate in spring, to block the upstream so that more air flows through the radiator.

I apologise for being a bit late and only just reading this thread but are you saying the bigger aluminium rad made your car run hotter?
_________________________
Roger
2006 4/4 Duratec

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#551625 - 04/01/19 08:37 AM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Heinz Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 3668
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Roger, depending on the speed, I would say yes. At lower speed and in extreme situations like In a stop and go on a warm summer day you notice that the aluminium radiator has more capacity than the smaller OEM plastic one. The temperature keeps cooler for a longer time and the electric fan is still rarer used than it is anyway the case with the 4/4.
(I never changed to aluminium because I felt the need due to coolant issues, it was just a precaution action not to wait until the OEM plastic item blows off).

At higher speeds over an extended and even distance, e.g. 140 km/h in 5th gear, for more than 10 minutes on the same piece of road the car gets warmer than with the smaller OEM radiator also now in the winter time. The assumptions why this could be so are discussed above in the thread.

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#551630 - 04/01/19 09:00 AM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Rog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 31/05/12
Posts: 856
Loc: Sumerset
I had this conundrum too. My car ran hotter as soon as I fitted a taller more efficient aluminium rad but it had this under tray on before and after.



My theory is its down to the thermal management on the modern Duratec engine (and maybe the Sigma too) that appears to be quite precarious. These engines are different to the older engines as they have their thermostats located at the bottom of the engine on the coolant input rather than more traditionally at the top on the cylinder head output.

On an engine with the stat on the coolant input the engine temp is regulated by a thermostat with 2 inputs. One input comes from the cooler coolant exiting the rad and the other is the hot engine by-pass coolant path. The stat response to the combine temp of both coolant paths.


So if you add a bigger more efficient rad the engine has to run hotter to raise the by-pass coolant temp to offset the cooling improvement in order to open the stat and regulate engine temp i.e. the stat will open later.


Just a theory, please feel free to shoot it down.
_________________________
Roger
2006 4/4 Duratec

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#551631 - 04/01/19 09:04 AM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Richard Wood Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 1589
Loc: East Harling, Norfolk UK
Sounds spot on Roger and consistent with yours and others findings.

Many modern engines seem to have this thermostat location, some even with ECU controlled override to provide quicker cooling reaction to sudden increase in power demand.


Edited by Richard Wood (04/01/19 09:12 AM)
_________________________
Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom

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#551649 - 04/01/19 10:33 AM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Heinz Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 3668
Loc: Cologne, Germany
A very interesting thought, Roger, about which I have a few questions below.

Ok, the Freightliner considerations at that time resulted in findings about the air flow, which I only transferred hypothetically to the current situation with the aluminium cooler. Up to now no one has realized the idea with the underbody plate to see what it does.
But for me it sounds reasonable even if I have only one clue for it, namely the noticeably better air supply of the air filter, which is placed directly behind the radiator.

Now if we leave (for a moment or may be longer) the ideas of the changed air flow and concentrate only on the thermostat idea.

Sorry if my questions let clearly see that I‘m just a curious layman.

If that's true as you write, Roger, then with one and the same radiator in winter, the average temperature of the engine would also have to rise?

Could a larger radiator (one which works effectively and delivers cooler water at its output) damage the engine because the engine has to run too warm for too long due to the compensation heat of the by-pass hose?

And is there a danger of too much resulting total heat when the thermostat is mounted on the bottom at the cold water inlet side? I wonder if at some point the bypass temperature must be reacted to by a wider opening of the cold part of the mix.

In a Ford service manual I once saw that the thermostat is electrically controlled on some models and, as Richard says, directly controlled by the ECU.
But I know that with the 4/4 the thermostat is purely mechanical. Therefore perhaps all works slower?

I have seen when a Thermostat on a 4/4 had to be replaced that it has a 82 degrees C temperatur mark on it. Being located at the cool side of the engine that would plausibly mean that the engine is intended to run a bit hotter than this „starting“ temperature, I would guess around 88 to 90 degrees C as I read the temperature on an OBD but I will recheck this readings.


Edited by Heinz (04/01/19 10:45 AM)

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#551652 - 04/01/19 10:42 AM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
IvorMog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/04/17
Posts: 771
Loc: Staffordshire
Is the OEM radiator copper core or aluminium core?

My old rad was copper core but I don't know about the later models.

Copper has a much better heat transfer value than aluminium so even though the radiator is bigger it won't have the same proportionate increase in cooling.

I changed my rad for reliability (and looks) rather than extra cooling.
_________________________
Bob

1999 4/4 1.8 Zetec

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#551654 - 04/01/19 11:05 AM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Craig Jezz Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 27/03/17
Posts: 875
Loc: Oxon
Since having my SIFAB alloy radiator fitted to my 4/4 Sigma engine, I now notice my fan doesn’t cut in as much, even on real hot days I would need to leave the car running at standstill for quite a while before the fan cuts in.

With the original black plastic coated radiator it used to come on all
the time...

I’m not sure if this is a good thing or not ? ...

I only changed it becoaue quite a few on here have had failures with the factory radiators .
_________________________
Craig Jezz

Morgan 4/4 Sports Sand (Williams & Wolf Tuned)

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#551671 - 04/01/19 12:27 PM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Heinz Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 07/09/09
Posts: 3668
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Craig, for the same reason did I also change the radiator. I think it is a good sign if the fan does not cut in so often as before.

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#551675 - 04/01/19 12:45 PM Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan]
Eddie Cairns Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 803
Loc: Aberdeenshire
From an efficiency point of view the engine is more efficient the higher the temperature it runs at within it's allowed temperature limits.

If the engine has not come to grief in the past and now the fan no longer cuts in as often, then the engine is working less efficiently.

If the engine did use watter due to it's higher temperature and now uses less than this may be a better long term reliabilty modification.

If the car did not use any real amount of water from the cooling system with the old radiator, the engine would be more efficient than it is now.

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