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Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #550596
28/12/18 07:47 PM
28/12/18 07:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,098
Yorkshire
CooperMan Offline OP
Has a lot to Say!
CooperMan  Offline OP
Has a lot to Say!

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,098
Yorkshire
Update, been out today to try and test the airbox mods, only managed 30miles as the Derbyshire roads were too busy and lots of x-mas dawdlers

At road legal speeds it's difficult to feel a genuine difference, but it has stopped making the awful 'wheeze' when applying throttle in a high gear at low revs

It ran cooler, fan never cut in

And it now sounds superb, nice gurgle of induction

So for me it's a tick, but I will be working on a Naca duct to fit against the side louvre


Jon M
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Heinz] #551275
01/01/19 08:32 PM
01/01/19 08:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
Guten Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Guten  Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
I've been thinking about this while driving today and watching the temp gauge rise to 100 at 70mph. The front wings are like a big funnel with their shape being sloped towards the back and I wonder if this causes the pressure in the engine bay. I will be investigating tomorrow unless SWMBO has different work instructions smile

Originally Posted By Heinz
Do you remember the thread when Lockheed Martin in the USA reported about the investigations in the wind tunnel? At that time, someone (an employee?) had his Rover Plus 8 tested there. The result was very interesting. The engineers' recommendation was to install a base plate in the front. In this way the air can flow through the radiator. This base plate should cover the area from the radiator to the engine.

Since I have an aluminum radiator in my 4/4, two things have changed. And I think it has something to do with the fact that this new radiator is wider and deeper.

The first thing I noticed was that now even more cold fresh air is being sucked up directly behind the radiator. That's good and really noticable during acceleration because my airbox is right behind the radiator...with the intake hole facing down.

The second thing I notice with my 4/4 is negative, but it's also an effect of the larger radiator: There's even less air flowing through the radiator, because the larger amount of fresh air coming from directly behind the radiator in form of an upstream from below will reduce the flow of air through the radiator even more. One air flow blocks the other.

So I notice quite clearly that the engine becomes much warmer at higher speeds, so from 140 km/h, than with the smaller original plastic radiator in the past. If it used to be 90 degrees, it's now 105 degrees.

This is a dilemma, and I want to experiment with a base plate in spring, to block the upstream so that more air flows through the radiator.

At the same time I want to make an opening with a pipe in this new base plate so that the airbox gets cold air, but the radiator continues to have air flowing through it.

In this way, the overall temperature in the engine compartment would have to drop, even in Plus 8.


Simon
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: cerealsurfer] #551277
01/01/19 08:37 PM
01/01/19 08:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
Guten Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Guten  Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
Interesting because your race prepared Morgan is producing WAY more HP than mine. I will check out my options tomorrow and try a plate from rad to engine as suggested Heinz earlier.

Originally Posted By cerealsurfer
I ran a full valance (not just flap) and flat floor under the engine on my 4/4 racer. It makes a lot of positive difference in terms of managing airflow correctly.


Simon
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #551299
02/01/19 02:09 AM
02/01/19 02:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,988
Cologne, Germany
Heinz Offline
Talk Morgan Addict
Heinz  Offline
Talk Morgan Addict

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,988
Cologne, Germany
Luckily I have found the original report on Gomog (see below). It was not Lookheed Martin which I recalled but Freightliner in Portland, Oregon who did the exploration on a Morgan car in 1995. Very interesting that they could prove that the size of the (then used) radiator was totally ok and the issue has to be resolved by changing the airflow, not the radiator itself.

I only noticed that the even bigger size of my in other respects brilliant aluminium radiator emphasizes the issue of the airflow when blocking its effectivity at higher speeds and when the temparature rises accordingly.

Here is the article which is the initiator of my idea to repeat their procedere to mount a flat floor underneath the gap between radiator and engine which will become an early spring project for me.

http://www.gomog.com/BLAIR/tech/cooling/art020.html

tmg513 was so kind to post this link in May of 2018.

Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Heinz] #551408
02/01/19 04:58 PM
02/01/19 04:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
Guten Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Guten  Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
Thanks Heinz, interesting reading. I've ordered a sheet of aluminium and will report back when done with findings.


Simon
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #551433
02/01/19 07:22 PM
02/01/19 07:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,783
Seattle, USA
B
Button Online content
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
Button  Online Content
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B

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,783
Seattle, USA
I have done the Dwight Smith (Freightliner) modification on My '63 +4-4Str. It works, but not dramatic. However: I now have a Shroud around a engine driven plastic fan. The plastic fan blade is a universal unit that can be cut down and blades trimmed to reduce the noise. The shroud was designed by Bob Nogueira (Texas). Robert Couch helped me sort the Flex-A-Lite Plastic fan blade. If I could just figure out TM's picture system I would send more information. Flex-A-Lite has a Universal Electric Fan with a Plastic Shroud that will fit on the inside of a radiator. I have this on My '61 DHC. Win Mueling (A Canadian) who lives North of Me installed this on two +8's (1970 & 1986) with success (I hear).


Button
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #551437
02/01/19 07:39 PM
02/01/19 07:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 792
Staffordshire
I
IvorMog Offline
Talk Morgan Regular
IvorMog  Offline
Talk Morgan Regular
I

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 792
Staffordshire
If it's true that the airflow hits the firewall and then forms a high pressure area under the bonnet then that high pressure could be an advantage for the engine air intake if you can pick it up in a reasonably cool area.


Bob

1999 4/4 1.8 Zetec
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: IvorMog] #551479
03/01/19 08:27 AM
03/01/19 08:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
Guten Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Guten  Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 350
Lincolnshire
Originally Posted By IvorMog
If it's true that the airflow hits the firewall and then forms a high pressure area under the bonnet then that high pressure could be an advantage for the engine air intake if you can pick it up in a reasonably cool area.



That's true, sort of free turbo charging - however - the reason for my concern on this topic is that a couple of years ago we drove down in to France via the channel tunnel. When we arrived at the tunnel there was a bit of a queue so we went from 70mph to stationary in quite a short distance. Unbeknown to me the fan relay had decided it wanted a day off and shortly after we stopped the engine overheated and most of the contents of the cooling system blew out. The header is just in front of the passenger side windscreen and whilst alarming it didn't cause any injury however if we had been travelling at motorway speeds it could have blown back in my wifes face and she wouldn't like that. This is why I'm keen to control the temperature whilst moving.

Last edited by Guten; 03/01/19 08:28 AM.

Simon
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Heinz] #551512
03/01/19 11:42 AM
03/01/19 11:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 977
Oxon
Craig Jezz Offline
Talk Morgan Regular
Craig Jezz  Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 977
Oxon
Originally Posted By Heinz
Do you remember the thread when Lockheed Martin in the USA reported about the investigations in the wind tunnel? At that time, someone (an employee?) had his Rover Plus 8 tested there. The result was very interesting. The engineers' recommendation was to install a base plate in the front. In this way the air can flow through the radiator. This base plate should cover the area from the radiator to the engine.

Since I have an aluminum radiator in my 4/4, two things have changed. And I think it has something to do with the fact that this new radiator is wider and deeper.

The first thing I noticed was that now even more cold fresh air is being sucked up directly behind the radiator. That's good and really noticable during acceleration because my airbox is right behind the radiator...with the intake hole facing down.

The second thing I notice with my 4/4 is negative, but it's also an effect of the larger radiator: There's even less air flowing through the radiator, because the larger amount of fresh air coming from directly behind the radiator in form of an upstream from below will reduce the flow of air through the radiator even more. One air flow blocks the other.

So I notice quite clearly that the engine becomes much warmer at higher speeds, so from 140 km/h, than with the smaller original plastic radiator in the past. If it used to be 90 degrees, it's now 105 degrees.

This is a dilemma, and I want to experiment with a base plate in spring, to block the upstream so that more air flows through the radiator.

At the same time I want to make an opening with a pipe in this new base plate so that the airbox gets cold air, but the radiator continues to have air flowing through it.

In this way, the overall temperature in the engine compartment would have to drop, even in Plus 8.


My air intake now comes in from above the radiator












Craig Jezz

Morgan 4/4 Sports Sand (Williams & Wolf Tuned)
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Heinz] #551532
03/01/19 02:06 PM
03/01/19 02:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,831
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Richard Wood Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
Richard Wood  Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,831
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted By Heinz
Luckily I have found the original report on Gomog (see below). It was not Lookheed Martin which I recalled but Freightliner in Portland, Oregon who did the exploration on a Morgan car in 1995. Very interesting that they could prove that the size of the (then used) radiator was totally ok and the issue has to be resolved by changing the airflow, not the radiator itself.

I only noticed that the even bigger size of my in other respects brilliant aluminium radiator emphasizes the issue of the airflow when blocking its effectivity at higher speeds and when the temparature rises accordingly.

Here is the article which is the initiator of my idea to repeat their procedere to mount a flat floor underneath the gap between radiator and engine which will become an early spring project for me.

http://www.gomog.com/BLAIR/tech/cooling/art020.html

tmg513 was so kind to post this link in May of 2018.


Since that article referred to tests on a 1972 +8, I wonder how or if airflow within the engine compartment has been improved since. Would have thought the variety of engines, body widths and particularly louvres between models in the following years would have affected results.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
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