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#551584 - 03/01/19 08:38 PM I.R.S.
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4179
Independant rear suspension and not the Internal Revenue Service , Button smile

In these days of custome / modified car build, has anyone altered a trad chassis to take an IRS system? Not impossible I would have thought - at a recent classic car meet there was a Lotus Cortina that had been modified for Jim Clark with Elan rear suspension, and unlike a trad the Cortina hasnt got a chassis to hand bits off..

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#551585 - 03/01/19 08:46 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17126
Loc: South Yorkshire
Not sure how well IRS matches a separate chassis.

Some say the TR4 handles better than the 4a.

It's been done on MGBs using a modified Sierra rear but it puts the dampers at such an angle that they can fail prematurely.
_________________________
DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4

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#551593 - 03/01/19 10:00 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: DaveW]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4179
Originally Posted By DaveW
Not sure how well IRS matches a separate chassis.



Lotus Elan - nothing handles better. Loads of TVRs. Generations of Ferraris. Corvette

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#551597 - 03/01/19 10:16 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Button Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 19/12/11
Posts: 1641
Loc: Seattle, USA
Originally Posted By howard
Independant rear suspension and not the Internal Revenue Service , Button smile

In these days of custome / modified car build, has anyone altered a trad chassis to take an IRS system? Not impossible I would have thought - at a recent classic car meet there was a Lotus Cortina that had been modified for Jim Clark with Elan rear suspension, and unlike a trad the Cortina hasnt got a chassis to hand bits off..


Ha Ha!
No but I have wondered about the feasibility of an IRS. I have wondered if I would like this feature. Not sure I would. I have considered going to aftermarket disks for the rear without the parking brake drum to lower the unsprung weight. But with My aging driver's style, whats the use? It looks like the 2019 +8 Aero could use an IRS. But then I would use a Corvette engine rather than a BMW mainly because it is cheaper and easier for Me to maintain.
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#551606 - 03/01/19 11:11 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
DaveW Offline
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Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17126
Loc: South Yorkshire
Originally Posted By howard
Originally Posted By DaveW
Not sure how well IRS matches a separate chassis.



Lotus Elan - nothing handles better. Loads of TVRs. Generations of Ferraris. Corvette


But those chassis are nothing like a Morgan chassis which is basically in two dimensions. A comparative measure of torsional stiffness would be interesting.
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2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4

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#551622 - 04/01/19 08:04 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4179
True. But I dont know that you need stiffness for an IRS any more than you do for a solid axle. And much can be done to improve the stiffness of the trad chassis. The key issue would be fitting it in without much modification of the body panels, because once you start to change the bodywork you might just as well go the Aero route.

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#551623 - 04/01/19 08:21 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Culminator Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 26/08/10
Posts: 413
If I remember rightly, Dave Rutherford built a Trad Plus 8 with a Caterham De Dion set up. Semi independent but used for his race car.


Edited by Culminator (04/01/19 09:58 AM)

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#551628 - 04/01/19 08:57 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Richard Wood Online   NoMood
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 1583
Loc: East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted By howard
Originally Posted By DaveW
Not sure how well IRS matches a separate chassis.



Lotus Elan - nothing handles better. Loads of TVRs. Generations of Ferraris. Corvette


Original Elan rear. MacPherson strut and lower wishbone plus under spec'd Hillman Imp rubber doughnuts if I remember.

_________________________
Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom

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#551633 - 04/01/19 09:06 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
CooperMan Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 19/11/15
Posts: 744
Loc: Yorkshire
Didn't Librands develop a Wishbone front end for the trads some years ago ?
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#551634 - 04/01/19 09:21 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: CooperMan]
Max5 Online   content

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 902
Loc: Ayrshire
Yes, there was a double wishbone front suspension set-up available at one time and I know of at least one example north of the border. I am not sure that owner was totally convinced of its advantages,(Andy?) especially in light of the costs involved. It was also before the five-link rear suspension was available and I think that it would have highlighted the limitations of the standard rear set-up. With a five-link rear it could be more effective.

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#551643 - 04/01/19 09:47 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
DaveW Offline
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Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17126
Loc: South Yorkshire
I think that was the Roadster which I saw at Mulfab way back. It also had what I remember as a five link rear end which had leading arms. Simon will know.

The biggest problem with the Trad is the low chassis and the limited space between it, and the vertical inner wing. You couldn't fit an outboard hub without some serious wood cutting.
A Chapman strut might fit but it would intrude into the space behind the seats.
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DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4

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#551647 - 04/01/19 10:14 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: Culminator]
MOG 615 Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 24/09/14
Posts: 1310
Loc: London
Originally Posted By Culminator
If I remember rightly, Dave Rutherford built a Trad Plus 8 with a Caterham De Dion set up. Semi independent but used for his race car.


I raced with David Rutherford in the 70s and 80s and he was forever in a 4/4. I don't remember him in a +8 , however my memory ain't what it used to be! Rob Wells developed a race +8 (the "Funny Car") but even that had a live rear axle.

I don't think that the design of the trad Morgan is suitable for an IRS system without drastic modifications , and as others have commented we would end up with the Aero 8 system.

That is why the current solutions to the rear suspension (be they Rutherford/Mulberry or MMC , or SSL) focus on utilising the live axle. It enables us to maintain the current chassis, and bodywork that we all love.
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1999 +8 , Indigo Blue.
Ex-John McKecknie/Mike Duncan 1955 +4 racer.

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#551657 - 04/01/19 11:12 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: MOG 615]
BobtheTrain Online   content

Charter Member

Registered: 15/04/14
Posts: 5065
Loc: Renfrewshire
I was under the impression that a live axle powered the wheels and a dead axle only supported the wheels. On a rear wheel drive the rear axle is live and the front dead. On a front wheel drive, vice versa.
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Lang may yer lum reek

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#551667 - 04/01/19 11:51 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
DaveW Offline
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Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17126
Loc: South Yorkshire
It would make a lovely garage job over winter but starting with a major strip down.

As with all these things, you have to balance the improvement against the cost and the work involved.

Obviously here we tend to shell out vast amounts of money anyway, because it's part of the fun.

I daren't tell MrsW how much my Roadster brake upgrades & Panhard Rod have cost......
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DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
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#551696 - 04/01/19 02:15 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Robbie Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 2615
Loc: Co Wexford, Ireland
I also only owned up to “ had the suspension serviced” when having the SSL fitted!!!!!!!

Cheers and a Happy new year all
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Robbie
2018 Plus4 - Black
VO 18 CZM -for the present!

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#551709 - 04/01/19 03:12 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: DaveW]
CooperMan Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 19/11/15
Posts: 744
Loc: Yorkshire
Originally Posted By DaveW
It would make a lovely garage job over winter but starting with a major strip down.

As with all these things, you have to balance the improvement against the cost and the work involved.

Obviously here we tend to shell out vast amounts of money anyway, because it's part of the fun.

I daren't tell MrsW how much my Roadster brake upgrades & Panhard Rod have cost......


Dave, have you only fitted the Panhard so far ?
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Jon M

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#551722 - 04/01/19 04:08 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
DaveW Offline
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Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 17126
Loc: South Yorkshire
Yes, I don't have any spare time, being retired and all.........

Hoping to do the brakes in January though. They look lovely on the bench..........
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DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4

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#551732 - 04/01/19 04:37 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Gambalunga Online   content

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 10957
Loc: Mandello del Lario, Lake Como,...
Originally Posted By howard
.............you might just as well go the Aero route.

Or wait to see just what it is that Morgan has under wraps for Geneva wink
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Peter


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#551740 - 04/01/19 05:49 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: BobtheTrain]
IvorMog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/04/17
Posts: 764
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By BobtheTrain
I was under the impression that a live axle powered the wheels and a dead axle only supported the wheels. On a rear wheel drive the rear axle is live and the front dead. On a front wheel drive, vice versa.


The term "live axle" refers to an axle where the hubs are connected by a solid beam with no relative articulation between them.

A live axle can be either driven or non-driven but also steering or non-steering.

On the Trads we have a driven live axle at the rear with independent non-driven axles at the front.

In the early days of cars and up to later on trucks, live non-driven steering axles were used on the front before the changes to independent suspension.

Modern cars all use independent suspension all round whether it's driven or non-driven.
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Bob

1999 4/4 1.8 Zetec

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#551746 - 04/01/19 06:09 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: DaveW]
Guten Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 18/02/07
Posts: 332
Loc: Lincolnshire
There's always the option of buying a Lotus? hide
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Simon

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#551754 - 04/01/19 06:34 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: IvorMog]
BobtheTrain Online   content

Charter Member

Registered: 15/04/14
Posts: 5065
Loc: Renfrewshire
Originally Posted By IvorMog
The term "live axle" refers to an axle where the hubs are connected by a solid beam with no relative articulation between them.

Several forums and I stand corrected.


Edited by BobtheTrain (04/01/19 06:35 PM)
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Lang may yer lum reek

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#551764 - 04/01/19 07:24 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7278
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
I always thought a beam axle was one that spanned the car in a single unarticulated unit linking both wheels, and could be live or dead. Live meaning drive is transmitted, dead meaning no drive, like a De Dion tube axle.

Any other sort of axle, where only a single wheel is connected, is a split axle, and again these can be live or dead.
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Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar

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#551774 - 04/01/19 08:33 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: Hamwich]
IvorMog Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/04/17
Posts: 764
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By Hamwich
I always thought a beam axle was one that spanned the car in a single unarticulated unit linking both wheels, and could be live or dead. Live meaning drive is transmitted, dead meaning no drive, like a De Dion tube axle.

Any other sort of axle, where only a single wheel is connected, is a split axle, and again these can be live or dead.




Research needed to confirm either way but the outcome will be interesting.

Could be 40 odd years of preconceived ideas going up in smoke here.
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Bob

1999 4/4 1.8 Zetec

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#551781 - 04/01/19 09:44 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4179
"Dead" vs "live". I'm firmly of the view that engineering is more important than sematics! innocent

But from a quick glance at my collection of Morgan build photos, it looks to me as if the trad could be modded to carry IRS. Be a biggish job for a one off and likely would result in something as expensive as an Aero so probably not worth it.

As an interesting aside, I cant see why MMC havent altered the chassis to get rid of the underslung and allow more axle movement. That doesnt look too difficult.

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#551795 - 04/01/19 10:39 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Robbie Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 2615
Loc: Co Wexford, Ireland
By the looks of the photos in Miscellany they are designing a new chassis so the short travel may well not last much longer
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Robbie
2018 Plus4 - Black
VO 18 CZM -for the present!

"Fettlebodge"-- chief of the PaddyMogs

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#551799 - 04/01/19 10:54 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: Hamwich]
BobtheTrain Online   content

Charter Member

Registered: 15/04/14
Posts: 5065
Loc: Renfrewshire
Originally Posted By Hamwich
I always thought a beam axle was one that spanned the car in a single unarticulated unit linking both wheels, and could be live or dead. Live meaning drive is transmitted, dead meaning no drive, like a De Dion tube axle.

Any other sort of axle, where only a single wheel is connected, is a split axle, and again these can be live or dead.

That's what I thought.
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Best Regards
Lang may yer lum reek

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#551800 - 04/01/19 10:54 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
cerealsurfer Offline
Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 2339
There was a +8 racer with IRS front and rear based on a completely revised chassis and a fibreglass body. I believe it was developed by David Rutherford and came up for sale about a year ago on racecarsdirect.



It was hard to move on and is a bit of a curio having had Modsports spec effectively written out of the Morgan racing rulebook.

The chassis issues with rear IRS were addressed - this is where the Aero chassis started life. From memory, when Charles Morgan was racing the last of the Trad +8’s (Blue with Yellow Wheels) and despite a considerable amount of modification it was just not cutting the mustard.



Next development was the revised and stiffer Aero chassis as was originally raced in a trad body form as Big Blue (as was fitted with a large Ceverolet LS motor).



The early diff/hub/wishbone mounting design in a separate cradle was to facilitate quick rear end swaps during endurance racing. Only 4 bolts holding the entire rear assembly in place.

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#551809 - 05/01/19 12:24 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: cerealsurfer]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19194
Loc: Devonshire
Thanks for that fascinating bit of race history on the Plus 8 IRS.
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Richard
1999 Indigo +8






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#551830 - 05/01/19 08:58 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Culminator Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 26/08/10
Posts: 413
Aha! I knew I'd seen a David Rutherford engineered IRS plus 8 somewhere....

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#551833 - 05/01/19 09:14 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: howard]
Richard Wood Online   NoMood
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 1583
Loc: East Harling, Norfolk UK
FWIW I agree with Bob's (IvorMog) description. The term live relating to the fact a solid axle links both suspended wheels rather than them moving independantly. Nothing therefore to do with them being driven or not.

Wicki is a bit vague on this but does state the drive axle may be a live axle, suggesting it doesn't have to be driven.


Edited by Richard Wood (05/01/19 09:15 AM)
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Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom

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#552304 - 07/01/19 01:09 AM Re: I.R.S. [Re: +8Rich]
OZ 4/4 Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 25/11/11
Posts: 2527
Loc: Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
Originally Posted By +8Rich
Thanks for that fascinating bit of race history on the Plus 8 IRS.


Richard, Welcome back....
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A Morgan Identified Fastidious Owner...
2011 4/4 Bespoke, 1981 Delorean DMC 12

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#552374 - 07/01/19 02:37 PM Re: I.R.S. [Re: OZ 4/4]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 19194
Loc: Devonshire
Originally Posted By OZ 4/4
Originally Posted By +8Rich
Thanks for that fascinating bit of race history on the Plus 8 IRS.


Richard, Welcome back....



Thanks Gary thumbs
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Richard
1999 Indigo +8






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