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Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Eddie Cairns] #551681
04/01/19 12:58 PM
04/01/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 862
Staffordshire
I
IvorMog Offline
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IvorMog  Offline
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I

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 862
Staffordshire
Originally Posted By Eddie Cairns

If the engine has not come to grief in the past and now the fan no longer cuts in as often, then the engine is working less efficiently.


Sorry but I don't agree. The fan should only come on when the temperature has gone over the optimum temperature and then bring it back down into the correct temperature range.

In normal conditions when the car is moving at anything more than a crawl then the fan shouldn't be needed if the cooling system is adequate and working properly.

I should probably have prefaced this post with IMHO.

Last edited by IvorMog; 04/01/19 01:00 PM.

Bob

1999 4/4 2.0 Zetec
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #551701
04/01/19 02:30 PM
04/01/19 02:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,980
Gloucestershire, UK
Hamwich Offline
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Gloucestershire, UK
I agree with Bob. If the fan is on, the engine is too hot. That's the purpose of the fan. The fan not cutting in is not an indication of the engine running less efficiently, it's an indication of the temperature not being too high.

If the engine is running too cool then yes, the engine may not be working as efficiently as it could, but the water temperature gauge should show this. If the water in the head is at around 100ºC then all should be fine, if the revised cooling system is capable of pulling more heat out of the engine than the old system then all that will happen is that the thermostat will cycle more frequently to keep the water in the head at the correct temperature.

My radiator fan hardly ever cuts in except in slow-moving or stationary traffic in very hot weather. Normally the water in the head sits at 100ºC and the water entering the radiator is at 90ºC.


Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Heinz] #551730
04/01/19 04:26 PM
04/01/19 04:26 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 916
Sumerset
Rog Offline
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Rog  Offline
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Sumerset
Originally Posted By Heinz
A very interesting thought, Roger, about which I have a few questions below.

Ok, the Freightliner considerations at that time resulted in findings about the air flow, which I only transferred hypothetically to the current situation with the aluminium cooler. Up to now no one has realized the idea with the underbody plate to see what it does.
But for me it sounds reasonable even if I have only one clue for it, namely the noticeably better air supply of the air filter, which is placed directly behind the radiator.

Now if we leave (for a moment or may be longer) the ideas of the changed air flow and concentrate only on the thermostat idea.

Sorry if my questions let clearly see that I‘m just a curious layman.
Heinz please we are all layman here debating and sharing our thoughts and experiences. These are just my observations and it could all be wrong smile

If that's true as you write, Roger, then with one and the same radiator in winter, the average temperature of the engine would also have to rise?
Yes. I have had my bigger aluminium rad in for a few seasons now and yes the car runs hotter in the winter. The fan runs much more in the winter and guess what, the stat stays closed with the fan running. Perversely the fan can run with the stat shut when the stat is on the cool side of the engine (it’s an easy check because you can feel the temp of the bottom hose whilst the fan is running). In the summer at 30C the fan doesn’t run much at all but the stat will often be open.

Could a larger radiator (one which works effectively and delivers cooler water at its output) damage the engine because the engine has to run too warm for too long due to the compensation heat of the by-pass hose?
Yes I think possibly so. I suspect Ford match the rads quite carefully.

And is there a danger of too much resulting total heat when the thermostat is mounted on the bottom at the cold water inlet side? I wonder if at some point the bypass temperature must be reacted to by a wider opening of the cold part of the mix.
Yes. I have done 2 to things to reduce my engine temp in an attempt to restore the balance since fitting the bigger rad. I’ve replaced the standard 90C stat with a Burton Power 82C stat. Also I’ve de-tuned my rad by putting a plate in front to reduce the surface area (pic below). I’m very happy with my engine temp in both summer and winter now. It happily stays mostly between 94 to 100C. I regularly check it with a scan tool.

In a Ford service manual I once saw that the thermostat is electrically controlled on some models and, as Richard says, directly controlled by the ECU.
But I know that with the 4/4 the thermostat is purely mechanical. Therefore perhaps all works slower?
On the first 1.8/2.0 early Duratec the stat housing had an ecu controlled heater embedded. I believe it was needed because there is a huge lag or disconnect between the head temp under load and stat opening at the bottom of the engine. To open the stat quicker the ecu would monitor the head temp and open the stat when necessary.

I assume this did not work very well as Ford dropped it on the Duratec around 2004. They did away with the heater and went back to pure mechanical and also changed the stat from a 98C to the 90C that we see in all the Duratec Morgans. The Duratec/Morgan ECU’s still have the pinouts for the heater but it is not used.


I have seen when a Thermostat on a 4/4 had to be replaced that it has a 82 degrees C temperatur mark on it. Being located at the cool side of the engine that would plausibly mean that the engine is intended to run a bit hotter than this „starting“ temperature, I would guess around 88 to 90 degrees C as I read the temperature on an OBD but I will recheck this readings.
Yes. When the stat is on the cold side the stat ‘cracking’ temp is not the same as the engine or cylinder head temp.


Air flow restrictor



Roger
Plus 4
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Hamwich] #551733
04/01/19 04:41 PM
04/01/19 04:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,063
Oxon
Craig Jezz Offline
Has a lot to Say!
Craig Jezz  Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,063
Oxon
Originally Posted By Hamwich
I agree with Bob. If the fan is on, the engine is too hot. That's the purpose of the fan. The fan not cutting in is not an indication of the engine running less efficiently, it's an indication of the temperature not being too high.

If the engine is running too cool then yes, the engine may not be working as efficiently as it could, but the water temperature gauge should show this. If the water in the head is at around 100ºC then all should be fine, if the revised cooling system is capable of pulling more heat out of the engine than the old system then all that will happen is that the thermostat will cycle more frequently to keep the water in the head at the correct temperature.

My radiator fan hardly ever cuts in except in slow-moving or stationary traffic in very hot weather. Normally the water in the head sits at 100ºC and the water entering the radiator is at 90ºC.



That makes sense Tim, my water temperature gauge remains the same as before at around 100, so the new alloy radiator helps maintain the correct running temperature without the use of the fan as much ?


Craig Jezz

Morgan 4/4 Sports Sand (Williams & Wolf Tuned)
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #551742
04/01/19 05:59 PM
04/01/19 05:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 355
Lincolnshire
Guten Offline
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Guten  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 355
Lincolnshire
I have wondered too about the positioning in the circuit of the temperature sensor for the gauge and the thermostat. I wondered if the stat is controlling the temperature as normal and the gauge is sensing the outlet temperature from the engine - BUT, I've renewed the stat on mine to make sure it is working OK (made no difference so I assume the one I took out was fine) and it is as you would expect a standard fitment SO in a normal saloon car it would only be on very rare occasions you would see the temperature gauge move let alone rise significantly no matter what speed. The rad I have is a Mulfab one (I fitted it because the standard one developed a leak, replaced it with a standard one and that one didn't last long either so I thought the Mulfab one would kill two stones with one bird). That being the case it is larger and so if the air flow is OK why would the coolant temperature vafry depending on the speed other than the speed itself causing an air flow restriction. I don't understand why this should be as there are plenty of louvres but it is. We'll see what happens.


Simon
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #551749
04/01/19 06:19 PM
04/01/19 06:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,291
Köln, Germany
Heinz Offline
Part of the Furniture
Heinz  Offline
Part of the Furniture

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,291
Köln, Germany
Roger, thanks for your detailed answers. It should not ne too difficult when I cut some cardboard to reduce the efficiency of the aluminium radiator, which consequently to your thoughts should help to lower the water temperature of the engine.

I have understood the consequences and effects but I haven't really fully understood how it works and how the connection between the warm bypass water and the cooler radiator water come together.

I assume that both water hoses meet before the thermostat. But how is the mix determined, and why does too little cold water seem to come into the circuit towards the engine behind the stat when the new radiator cools so well, better than the old smaller plastic radiator? But the engine runs hotter...


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: CooperMan] #551751
04/01/19 06:23 PM
04/01/19 06:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,291
Köln, Germany
Heinz Offline
Part of the Furniture
Heinz  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,291
Köln, Germany
Simon, the stat thought is different than the air flow thought. The thermostat theory assumes that the radiator actually works even better, but exactly for this reason, the engine gets warmer. As you say, we will see. I will test both approaches.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Guten] #551763
04/01/19 07:20 PM
04/01/19 07:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,063
Oxon
Craig Jezz Offline
Has a lot to Say!
Craig Jezz  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,063
Oxon
Originally Posted By Guten
I have wondered too about the positioning in the circuit of the temperature sensor for the gauge and the thermostat. I wondered if the stat is controlling the temperature as normal and the gauge is sensing the outlet temperature from the engine - BUT, I've renewed the stat on mine to make sure it is working OK (made no difference so I assume the one I took out was fine) and it is as you would expect a standard fitment SO in a normal saloon car it would only be on very rare occasions you would see the temperature gauge move let alone rise significantly no matter what speed. The rad I have is a Mulfab one (I fitted it because the standard one developed a leak, replaced it with a standard one and that one didn't last long either so I thought the Mulfab one would kill two stones with one bird). That being the case it is larger and so if the air flow is OK why would the coolant temperature vafry depending on the speed other than the speed itself causing an air flow restriction. I don't understand why this should be as there are plenty of louvres but it is. We'll see what happens.


The way I understand it, aluminium radiators provide more cooling, due to the fact aluminium is an efficient heat rejection. Hence the reason the fan does less work


Craig Jezz

Morgan 4/4 Sports Sand (Williams & Wolf Tuned)
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Craig Jezz] #551776
04/01/19 08:42 PM
04/01/19 08:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 355
Lincolnshire
Guten Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Guten  Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 355
Lincolnshire
Originally Posted By Craig Jezz
Originally Posted By Guten
I have wondered too about the positioning in the circuit of the temperature sensor for the gauge and the thermostat. I wondered if the stat is controlling the temperature as normal and the gauge is sensing the outlet temperature from the engine - BUT, I've renewed the stat on mine to make sure it is working OK (made no difference so I assume the one I took out was fine) and it is as you would expect a standard fitment SO in a normal saloon car it would only be on very rare occasions you would see the temperature gauge move let alone rise significantly no matter what speed. The rad I have is a Mulfab one (I fitted it because the standard one developed a leak, replaced it with a standard one and that one didn't last long either so I thought the Mulfab one would kill two stones with one bird). That being the case it is larger and so if the air flow is OK why would the coolant temperature vafry depending on the speed other than the speed itself causing an air flow restriction. I don't understand why this should be as there are plenty of louvres but it is. We'll see what happens.


The way I understand it, aluminium radiators provide more cooling, due to the fact aluminium is an efficient heat rejection. Hence the reason the fan does less work


True but the fan IS doing the same amount of work


Simon
Re: Air Intake improvements [Re: Craig Jezz] #551777
04/01/19 08:45 PM
04/01/19 08:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 862
Staffordshire
I
IvorMog Offline
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IvorMog  Offline
Talk Morgan Regular
I

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 862
Staffordshire
Originally Posted By Craig Jezz
Originally Posted By Guten
I have wondered too about the positioning in the circuit of the temperature sensor for the gauge and the thermostat. I wondered if the stat is controlling the temperature as normal and the gauge is sensing the outlet temperature from the engine - BUT, I've renewed the stat on mine to make sure it is working OK (made no difference so I assume the one I took out was fine) and it is as you would expect a standard fitment SO in a normal saloon car it would only be on very rare occasions you would see the temperature gauge move let alone rise significantly no matter what speed. The rad I have is a Mulfab one (I fitted it because the standard one developed a leak, replaced it with a standard one and that one didn't last long either so I thought the Mulfab one would kill two stones with one bird). That being the case it is larger and so if the air flow is OK why would the coolant temperature vafry depending on the speed other than the speed itself causing an air flow restriction. I don't understand why this should be as there are plenty of louvres but it is. We'll see what happens.


The way I understand it, aluminium radiators provide more cooling, due to the fact aluminium is an efficient heat rejection. Hence the reason the fan does less work


Copper is a much better transmitter of heat than aluminium which is why I asked earlier if the later radiator cores were copper or aluminium.

My original Zetec rad was copper I think but because my new ally rad is bigger and has more fins it does a very good job.

Copper has almost double the thermal conductivity of aluminium.

Simon of Sifab is the expert though so I will stand by to be corrected.


Bob

1999 4/4 2.0 Zetec
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