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#552915 - 10/01/19 07:43 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Peter J]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 6985
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By Peter J
BA made money flying Concorde even after the Air France crash.
Air France never made money flying Concorde.


Only if you ignore the development costs.

Concorde was a beautiful plane and a technological marvel, but it was a commercial failure because it was a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

The more or less contemporary Boeing 747, however, was the complete reverse. Not particularly glamorous but a brilliant design and the perfect solution for what was actually needed.
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Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar

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#552922 - 10/01/19 08:01 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: IvorMog]
N22MOG Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 09/06/09
Posts: 1216
Loc: Edenbridge, Kent, UK
Concorde was way ahead of its time, the basic design was spot on for supersonic travel. It was politics that finally killed it off. Technologically speaking engines have moved on considerably since the 1960s and are now massively more efficient and clean. I spent 45 years working in the aerospace industry and travelled across the Atlantic regularly, I’ve been in economy, business and first class, and sometimes paid for an upgrade personally. If I had the money to cut the journey time in half I would do so every time and I think there are enough people out there willing and able to pay the price to make it a viable proposition. I was at a conference a few years back when Alan Sugar was a guest speaker, he was asked how he “justifies” having a large private jet, his response was that he doesn’t have to justify it, he hates going through airports and can afford not to have to be processed with the rest of us, simple as that! Refreshingly honest I thought.
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1996 Plus 8

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#552934 - 10/01/19 08:45 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: N22MOG]
pandy Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 6884
Loc: West Paris, France
Originally Posted By N22MOG
It was politics that finally killed it off.


Nothing to do with that crash in Paris then ?
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#552950 - 10/01/19 09:49 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
Robbie Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 2580
Loc: Co Wexford, Ireland
Supersonic flights were banned over the US because the yanks didn’t want the European plane to succeed when they hadn’t a competitor - pure “trumpian” politics!!! The technical or economic issues were beyond them and they couldn’t snaffle the technology as they had done with jet tech after the 2nd world war under “repayment” of war loans.
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#552954 - 10/01/19 10:01 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
John V6 Online   content

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 21/07/07
Posts: 12646
Loc: Suffolk
I flew once in Concorde across the Atlantic. It was superb.
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JohnV6
2006 Indigo Blue Roadster S1

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#552973 - 10/01/19 11:54 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: N22MOG]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 6985
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By N22MOG
I think there are enough people out there willing and able to pay the price to make it a viable proposition.


That's the handy thing about Capitalism and private enterprise, if you are right there will be plenty of people happy to invest their money and take a risk in the venture in order to ensure its success.

HS2, in contrast, looks to me like a re-run of the original Concorde programme - billions of pounds of taxpayers money pumped into a political vanity project of questionable probity developing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist instead of addressing the very real problems of mass transport infrastructure that do exist and are crying out for public investment.
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Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar

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#552981 - 10/01/19 12:29 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Peter J]
MOG 615 Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 24/09/14
Posts: 1253
Loc: London
Peter

There was another theory about Concorde’s demise.

Those 4 Olympus jets (with afterburners?) had a very high heat signature in the sky. This made them an easy target for a terrorist group with access to heat seeking missiles. The high profile travellers who used Concorde also made them an attractive target.

Just a theory that I was informed about by someone in the aerospace industry.
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Andy G
1999 +8 , Indigo Blue.
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#552982 - 10/01/19 12:34 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Hamwich]
Rob Thornton Offline

L - Learner Plates On

Registered: 06/07/15
Posts: 192
Loc: Reading
Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By N22MOG
I think there are enough people out there willing and able to pay the price to make it a viable proposition.


That's the handy thing about Capitalism and private enterprise, if you are right there will be plenty of people happy to invest their money and take a risk in the venture in order to ensure its success.

HS2, in contrast, looks to me like a re-run of the original Concorde programme - billions of pounds of taxpayers money pumped into a political vanity project of questionable probity developing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist instead of addressing the very real problems of mass transport infrastructure that do exist and are crying out for public investment.


I understand the concern re the balance of costs between new and existing railway infrastructure but there is a difference between HS2 and Concorde in that the money spent on HS2 is in building it rather than developing the technology. Whether you think it is being spent on the right thing is a different matter.
The Department for Transport's case (I think it is available on the internet) is based on a wider spread of economic benefits than those relating purely to the use of the service itself. I have mentioned before that the new line will free up existing routes for better local services and add much needed capacity to the network as a whole. It is also intended to attract more people to change mode to a more sustainable form of transport. Yes, the journey time benefits are in the equation but it is not just about the businessman getting to a meeting earlier as is often reported.
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Rob T
2001 Royal Ivory Plus 8

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#552997 - 10/01/19 01:17 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Rob Thornton]
BobtheTrain Online   content

Part of the Furniture

Registered: 15/04/14
Posts: 4851
Loc: Renfrewshire
Originally Posted By Rob Thornton
I have mentioned before that the new line will free up existing routes for better local services and add much needed capacity to the network as a whole. It is also intended to attract more people to change mode to a more sustainable form of transport.

Thank you, Rob. Also headways and 2, 3 or 4 aspect signalling comes into it.
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#553002 - 10/01/19 01:53 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Rob Thornton]
pandy Offline

Talk Morgan Sage

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 6884
Loc: West Paris, France
Originally Posted By Rob Thornton

I understand the concern re the balance of costs between new and existing railway infrastructure but there is a difference between HS2 and Concorde in that the money spent on HS2 is in building it rather than developing the technology. Whether you think it is being spent on the right thing is a different matter.
The Department for Transport's case (I think it is available on the internet) is based on a wider spread of economic benefits than those relating purely to the use of the service itself. I have mentioned before that the new line will free up existing routes for better local services and add much needed capacity to the network as a whole. It is also intended to attract more people to change mode to a more sustainable form of transport. Yes, the journey time benefits are in the equation but it is not just about the businessman getting to a meeting earlier as is often reported.


One of the things I like about France is the enthusiasm for "le grand projet" and this has certainly been true of the railways.

The high speed rail network here has been of massive benefit. To be able to get from Paris to Bordeaux in 2 hours or to Marseille in 3 is fantastic, and combined with a realistic fares structure makes it a much more attractive prospect than flying, particularly as air travel has become such a ghastly experience. As over 80% of the electricity is produced by nuclear or alternative energy, there's also a real environmental case to be made too.

Yes, it has been costly, but large infrastructure projects generate employment, and stimulate the economy; projects such as railway lines should be looked at in the longer term. Just consider that most of the UK rail network dates back to Victorian times, and the public benefit that it has provided. Increasing capacity by building new lines to take pressure off the existing infrastructure has to be a good thing (unless it's going through your back garden perhaps....)
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