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#552826 - 09/01/19 06:52 PM ‘Son of Concorde’
+8Rich Offline

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Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 20011
Loc: Devonshire

It'll be very interesting to see Steve Jobs idea take to the air this year.




Son of Concorde
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#552830 - 09/01/19 07:25 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
IvorMog Offline

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Registered: 17/04/17
Posts: 792
Loc: Staffordshire
Interesting that the overall shape is very similar to Concorde which was designed in the 1960's

I will be very surprised if this is a commercial success.
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#552836 - 09/01/19 07:44 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: IvorMog]
Hamwich Offline

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Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By IvorMog
Interesting that the overall shape is very similar to Concorde which was designed in the 1960's

I will be very surprised if this is a commercial success.


Indeed. What killed Concorde was essentially the fact that there actually aren't that many people who are prepared to pay cartloads of money to get somewhere quickly, whereas of course there are millions and millions of people who are prepared to pay money to get somewhere cheaply.

I can't see that things have changed much in the last 40 years or so.
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#552840 - 09/01/19 07:57 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Hamwich]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
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I wonder if the same will apply to HS2 smile
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#552863 - 09/01/19 09:12 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Graham, G4FUJ]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4303
Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
I wonder if the same will apply to HS2 smile


No because the people who will be paying the tons of money are us and mostly not the users

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#552878 - 09/01/19 10:30 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
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Registered: 13/08/13
Posts: 11364
Loc: Salisbury, UK
SWMBO and I flew in Concorde....a magical experience.

A 55 seat fuel efficient SST will be viable.
Concorde was, technologically, a child of the 60s. Engines and electronics have moved on a lot.

Interesting fact: the replica ME 262 jets built a few years ago used J85 engines. The originals had an endurance of an hour. The replicas, with the same fuel tankage, could cross the Atlantic.....
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#552883 - 09/01/19 10:48 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
+8Rich Offline

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Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 20011
Loc: Devonshire
I wish them luck with it and hope it is successful, there are always people around willing to pay crazy money to save time.

They have a waiting list of people to sample space at £250,000 a go after all.
https://www.facebook.com/VirginGalactic/videos/1928109237242718/

Interesting about those replica 262's.
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#552897 - 10/01/19 04:11 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
pete757 Offline
L - Learner Plates On

Registered: 03/12/18
Posts: 187
I don't actually think ticket cost is an issue now. When Concorde was 'retired' from service, a typical crossing cost circa £8k... Today, a typical BA first class ticket costs circa £7k... there will be people who will be willing to pay that.

'Overture' will have half the seating capacity of Concord, MUCH more efficient engines, more efficient design etc etc I think will make this quite viable commercially.

Finally a forward step in commercial aviation. Good luck to them :>)
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#552902 - 10/01/19 05:33 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
Stewart S Offline
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I agree, I think a supersonic transatlantic service with a new Concorde type aircraft would be viable

I think wealthy businesses and individuals will pay to get across quickly as they did with Concorde previously

It was the ongoing high cost of maintenance and insurance after the Concorde crash coupled with the age of the craft that killed the commercial viability so a new aircraft would make sense

It’s how you factor in the cost of development and the cost of production that will be the real critical factor

But then as we’ve seen with Branson’s and Musks space flights, these vanity (actually a bit harsh as it’s more about pushing the boundaries and human endeavour) projects don’t seem to be money making projects as their aim
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#552913 - 10/01/19 07:16 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Stewart S]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
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Registered: 13/08/13
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Loc: Salisbury, UK
BA made money flying Concorde even after the Air France crash.
Air France never made money flying Concorde.

Concorde stopped flying because the French CAA withdrew type approval and refused to let the UK CAA approve the aircraft as a UK only machine. They did this by leaning on the French side of the production partnership, It was mainly a political decision.
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#552915 - 10/01/19 07:43 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Peter J]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By Peter J
BA made money flying Concorde even after the Air France crash.
Air France never made money flying Concorde.


Only if you ignore the development costs.

Concorde was a beautiful plane and a technological marvel, but it was a commercial failure because it was a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

The more or less contemporary Boeing 747, however, was the complete reverse. Not particularly glamorous but a brilliant design and the perfect solution for what was actually needed.
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#552922 - 10/01/19 08:01 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: IvorMog]
N22MOG Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 09/06/09
Posts: 1282
Loc: Edenbridge, Kent, UK
Concorde was way ahead of its time, the basic design was spot on for supersonic travel. It was politics that finally killed it off. Technologically speaking engines have moved on considerably since the 1960s and are now massively more efficient and clean. I spent 45 years working in the aerospace industry and travelled across the Atlantic regularly, I’ve been in economy, business and first class, and sometimes paid for an upgrade personally. If I had the money to cut the journey time in half I would do so every time and I think there are enough people out there willing and able to pay the price to make it a viable proposition. I was at a conference a few years back when Alan Sugar was a guest speaker, he was asked how he “justifies” having a large private jet, his response was that he doesn’t have to justify it, he hates going through airports and can afford not to have to be processed with the rest of us, simple as that! Refreshingly honest I thought.
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#552934 - 10/01/19 08:45 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: N22MOG]
pandy Offline

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Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 7334
Loc: West Paris, France
Originally Posted By N22MOG
It was politics that finally killed it off.


Nothing to do with that crash in Paris then ?
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#552950 - 10/01/19 09:49 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
Robbie Offline

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Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 2655
Loc: Co Wexford, Ireland
Supersonic flights were banned over the US because the yanks didn’t want the European plane to succeed when they hadn’t a competitor - pure “trumpian” politics!!! The technical or economic issues were beyond them and they couldn’t snaffle the technology as they had done with jet tech after the 2nd world war under “repayment” of war loans.
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#552954 - 10/01/19 10:01 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
John V6 Offline

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Registered: 21/07/07
Posts: 13286
Loc: Suffolk
I flew once in Concorde across the Atlantic. It was superb.
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#552973 - 10/01/19 11:54 AM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: N22MOG]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By N22MOG
I think there are enough people out there willing and able to pay the price to make it a viable proposition.


That's the handy thing about Capitalism and private enterprise, if you are right there will be plenty of people happy to invest their money and take a risk in the venture in order to ensure its success.

HS2, in contrast, looks to me like a re-run of the original Concorde programme - billions of pounds of taxpayers money pumped into a political vanity project of questionable probity developing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist instead of addressing the very real problems of mass transport infrastructure that do exist and are crying out for public investment.
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#552981 - 10/01/19 12:29 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Peter J]
MOG 615 Offline

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Registered: 24/09/14
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Peter

There was another theory about Concorde’s demise.

Those 4 Olympus jets (with afterburners?) had a very high heat signature in the sky. This made them an easy target for a terrorist group with access to heat seeking missiles. The high profile travellers who used Concorde also made them an attractive target.

Just a theory that I was informed about by someone in the aerospace industry.
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#552982 - 10/01/19 12:34 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Hamwich]
Rob Thornton Offline

Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/07/15
Posts: 297
Loc: Reading
Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By N22MOG
I think there are enough people out there willing and able to pay the price to make it a viable proposition.


That's the handy thing about Capitalism and private enterprise, if you are right there will be plenty of people happy to invest their money and take a risk in the venture in order to ensure its success.

HS2, in contrast, looks to me like a re-run of the original Concorde programme - billions of pounds of taxpayers money pumped into a political vanity project of questionable probity developing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist instead of addressing the very real problems of mass transport infrastructure that do exist and are crying out for public investment.


I understand the concern re the balance of costs between new and existing railway infrastructure but there is a difference between HS2 and Concorde in that the money spent on HS2 is in building it rather than developing the technology. Whether you think it is being spent on the right thing is a different matter.
The Department for Transport's case (I think it is available on the internet) is based on a wider spread of economic benefits than those relating purely to the use of the service itself. I have mentioned before that the new line will free up existing routes for better local services and add much needed capacity to the network as a whole. It is also intended to attract more people to change mode to a more sustainable form of transport. Yes, the journey time benefits are in the equation but it is not just about the businessman getting to a meeting earlier as is often reported.
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#552997 - 10/01/19 01:17 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Rob Thornton]
BobtheTrain Offline

Charter Member

Registered: 15/04/14
Posts: 5223
Loc: Renfrewshire
Originally Posted By Rob Thornton
I have mentioned before that the new line will free up existing routes for better local services and add much needed capacity to the network as a whole. It is also intended to attract more people to change mode to a more sustainable form of transport.

Thank you, Rob. Also headways and 2, 3 or 4 aspect signalling comes into it.
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#553002 - 10/01/19 01:53 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Rob Thornton]
pandy Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 7334
Loc: West Paris, France
Originally Posted By Rob Thornton

I understand the concern re the balance of costs between new and existing railway infrastructure but there is a difference between HS2 and Concorde in that the money spent on HS2 is in building it rather than developing the technology. Whether you think it is being spent on the right thing is a different matter.
The Department for Transport's case (I think it is available on the internet) is based on a wider spread of economic benefits than those relating purely to the use of the service itself. I have mentioned before that the new line will free up existing routes for better local services and add much needed capacity to the network as a whole. It is also intended to attract more people to change mode to a more sustainable form of transport. Yes, the journey time benefits are in the equation but it is not just about the businessman getting to a meeting earlier as is often reported.


One of the things I like about France is the enthusiasm for "le grand projet" and this has certainly been true of the railways.

The high speed rail network here has been of massive benefit. To be able to get from Paris to Bordeaux in 2 hours or to Marseille in 3 is fantastic, and combined with a realistic fares structure makes it a much more attractive prospect than flying, particularly as air travel has become such a ghastly experience. As over 80% of the electricity is produced by nuclear or alternative energy, there's also a real environmental case to be made too.

Yes, it has been costly, but large infrastructure projects generate employment, and stimulate the economy; projects such as railway lines should be looked at in the longer term. Just consider that most of the UK rail network dates back to Victorian times, and the public benefit that it has provided. Increasing capacity by building new lines to take pressure off the existing infrastructure has to be a good thing (unless it's going through your back garden perhaps....)
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#553003 - 10/01/19 01:56 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
Philippo Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 473
Loc: Beaumont de Lomagne, France
Very interesting topic.

From having spoking to quite a few people close to Concorde and Airbus, my understanding of the reason operations stopped is that the real cost of support had become incredibly high due in no small part to the fleet being so small.

Personally I think supersonic flight will return relatively soon, but with a smaller aircraft seating maybe 6-20 pax, and for VVIP owners only.

Cheers

Philip
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#553057 - 10/01/19 05:12 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: pandy]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By pandy

Yes, it has been costly, but large infrastructure projects generate employment, and stimulate the economy; projects such as railway lines should be looked at in the longer term. Just consider that most of the UK rail network dates back to Victorian times, and the public benefit that it has provided. Increasing capacity by building new lines to take pressure off the existing infrastructure has to be a good thing (unless it's going through your back garden perhaps....)


If you look at the cost of HS2 though I can't help thinking there would be far more benefit to be gained by more general upgrades to the entire network rather then one flagship line. Why is most of the network still dependent on crappy old diesels, for example? And why are we still waiting for promised signalling improvements on our local line to allow more than one train an hour to run through Stroud?
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#553058 - 10/01/19 05:14 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: MOG 615]
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 13/08/13
Posts: 11364
Loc: Salisbury, UK
Originally Posted By MOG 615
Peter

There was another theory about Concorde’s demise.

Those 4 Olympus jets (with afterburners?) had a very high heat signature in the sky. This made them an easy target for a terrorist group with access to heat seeking missiles. The high profile travellers who used Concorde also made them an attractive target.

Just a theory that I was informed about by someone in the aerospace industry.


A valid point, another is that there is no way to put a secure cockpit door between the cabin and flight deck.

I always wondered why the 9-11 terrorists didn't hijack a Concorde departing KFK and fly it at Mach 2.02 into the US Capitol building. The kinetic energy would have been massive, not to mention all the fuel.

Concorde cruised at 65,000 ft, Mach 2.02. The only RAF interceptor of the day capable of catching it was the BAE Lightning... The USA had nothing, other than the F104.
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#553089 - 10/01/19 07:05 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Philippo]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 20011
Loc: Devonshire
Originally Posted By Philippo
Very interesting topic.

From having spoking to quite a few people close to Concorde and Airbus, my understanding of the reason operations stopped is that the real cost of support had become incredibly high due in no small part to the fleet being so small.

Personally I think supersonic flight will return relatively soon, but with a smaller aircraft seating maybe 6-20 pax, and for VVIP owners only.

Cheers

Philip




Like you Philip I think we are very close to this becoming reality, people are at last realising that "time is the most valuable commodity".
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1999 Indigo Blue +8
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#553104 - 10/01/19 08:09 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
ewn Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/04/16
Posts: 1208
Loc: NE Scotland
Nah, time is relative, water is the only truly valuable commodity. laugh2

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#553110 - 10/01/19 08:51 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: ewn]
Rob Thornton Offline

Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/07/15
Posts: 297
Loc: Reading
Originally Posted By ewn
Nah, time is relative, water is the only truly valuable commodity. laugh2

Could be why we like top-down Morgans then!
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2001 Royal Ivory Plus 8

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#553125 - 10/01/19 10:50 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: +8Rich]
Jacques Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 21/12/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Between Paris & Montlhery - Fr...

Some frenchies at Toulouse this year !



Nota : The founder and first president in 1974 of the french Morgan Club (french section of the MSCC), Patrick Boisvieux was steward on Concorde.
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#553126 - 10/01/19 10:54 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Jacques]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 20011
Loc: Devonshire
Thanks for sharing that picture Jacques that is a great shot, and interesting bit of history about your club.
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#553133 - 10/01/19 11:37 PM Re: ‘Son of Concorde’ [Re: Philippo]
Aeroman Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 7258
Loc: Eton, Berks
Originally Posted By Philippo
Very interesting topic.

From having spoking to quite a few people close to Concorde and Airbus, my understanding of the reason operations stopped is that the real cost of support had become incredibly high due in no small part to the fleet being so small.

Personally I think supersonic flight will return relatively soon, but with a smaller aircraft seating maybe 6-20 pax, and for VVIP owners only.

Cheers

Philip


From a friend we have that works for BA, that is also their interpretation of the future for supersonic flight. With the exponential expansion of billionaires in the world, it appears there is a gap in the market for a small supersonic plane.

Regarding Concorde, I agree with Tim’s assessment that the jumbo jet answered the transport requirement at the time, rather than supersonic flight. Having said that both Head Office and I thoroughly enjoyed our transatlantic flight on it, even if it took 3-hours to get our luggage as the baggage handlers were on strike! oldgit
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