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#555326 - 22/01/19 01:30 PM Smiths Round heater
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
And on to my next issue smile

I have the round Smiths Heater in the passenger footwell and although she gets a little warm, she doesn't get hot. The previous owner had a tap installed, so it must have got 'too warm' at some point in the past.

At the weekend I replaced the hoses, removed the tap and flushed the heater matrix in both directions. However she still doesn't seem to get warm.

I have one hose that goes from a 'take off' on the the water pump and into the heater matrix and a second hose that goes from the matrix to the inlet manifold.

When the engine runs, the hose from the heater matrix to manifold gets warm, whereas the hose from the water pump to heater remains cold. Personally I would have thought the opposite - the water should flow from the water pump, to the heater matrix and then back in through the manifold so the hoses should either be the same temperature, or the pump to matrix hose should be slightly warmer.

Any thoughts?

Both hoses are new. The matrix is clear and water is definitely flowing out of the water pump at pressure when running and the car maintains temperature well.
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#555327 - 22/01/19 02:27 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
tmg513 Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 27/08/08
Posts: 1951
Loc: Powick
Manifold to heater then return to the water pump is the correct direction. It sounds like you have an air-lock. I'd loosen the clip on the heater return hose and gently pull it away when the engine's just started to see if any air comes out.
_________________________
1972 4/4 2 Seater

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#555329 - 22/01/19 02:38 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: tmg513]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Originally Posted By tmg513
Manifold to heater then return to the water pump is the correct direction. It sounds like you have an air-lock.


Ah, opposite to the way I thought and will explain why that hose gets hot first. Thank you.


Originally Posted By tmg513
I'd loosen the clip on the heater return hose and gently pull it away when the engine's just started to see if any air comes out.


I did this - got showered in fluid- there was definitely water coming out of the matrix. I'll have a crack again at the weekend and see if I can get any air out. Is there a preferred 'in and out' for the matrix? Currently the hose from manifold enters the matrix on the passenger left/passenger side and exits back to water pump on the right/drivers side.

If I was going to fit a tap, am I right to assume it should be in the hose going from manifold to matrix, rather than in the hose from matrix to pump (as fitted by Allon White).
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#555331 - 22/01/19 02:41 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Burgundymog Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 11/05/14
Posts: 3470
Loc: Essex
Try removing both hoses and filling the heater manually
_________________________
Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.

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#555352 - 22/01/19 04:33 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
CooperMan Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 19/11/15
Posts: 840
Loc: Yorkshire
If you feed the hot supply in to the top of a matrix & the return cooler water out of the lower level, you will aid circulation by the thermo-syphonic effect
_________________________
Jon M

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#555354 - 22/01/19 04:42 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
B3MOG Offline

L - Learner Plates On

Registered: 05/02/13
Posts: 100
Loc: north yorkshire
make sure a thermostat is fitted.

David Byrne

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#555366 - 22/01/19 06:18 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: CooperMan]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Originally Posted By CooperMan
If you feed the hot supply in to the top of a matrix & the return cooler water out of the lower level, you will aid circulation by the thermo-syphonic effect


Unfortunately Inlet and Outlet are exactly the same level.
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#555387 - 22/01/19 07:59 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
tmg513 Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 27/08/08
Posts: 1951
Loc: Powick
You could try eliminating the matrix by joining the two hoses together and seeing whether the whole length of the joined hose heats up. That should give you a better idea exactly where the problem is.
_________________________
1972 4/4 2 Seater

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#555389 - 22/01/19 08:02 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: tmg513]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Originally Posted By tmg513
You could try eliminating the matrix by joining the two hoses together and seeing whether the whole length of the joined hose heats up. That should give you a better idea exactly where the problem is.


Good plan
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#555466 - 23/01/19 09:27 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
CooperMan Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 19/11/15
Posts: 840
Loc: Yorkshire
Originally Posted By TBM
Originally Posted By CooperMan
If you feed the hot supply in to the top of a matrix & the return cooler water out of the lower level, you will aid circulation by the thermo-syphonic effect


Unfortunately Inlet and Outlet are exactly the same level.


Oh dear, not well designed, this makes you totally reliant on the efficiency of the water pump and the frictional losses of the hoses and matrix core, you may have a partial air lock in the heater - try a bit of a power flush with a hosepipe via the feed pipework
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Jon M

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#555469 - 23/01/19 09:45 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: CooperMan]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Originally Posted By CooperMan
try a bit of a power flush with a hosepipe via the feed pipework


Yeah,I did that in both directions and it seemed pretty clear. Will try again this weekend (weather permitting) to see if I can get rid of any airlock.
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#556347 - 28/01/19 01:28 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Biglewey Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 22/10/17
Posts: 31
Once had an airlock in a Hillman imp. Engine at back heater matrix at front - nightmare.

Couple of suggestions.

1. squeeze hoses and listen - if you can hear "squelching" noises there is air in there = airlock.
2. Try carefully clamping the pump outlet pipe just after the tee off for the heater to force all the pump pressure thro heater. Do it cold when thermostat is closed.
3. you should check thermostat is working correctly - they do fail open sometimes i which case all the flow will go through the radiator reducing pressure for the heater.
4. lastly - unlikely - water pumps do loose efficiency with age if the blades are eroded.

Best of luck.

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#556358 - 28/01/19 02:14 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Thank you.
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#556504 - 29/01/19 10:07 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: CooperMan]
Richard Wood Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 1636
Loc: East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted By CooperMan
Originally Posted By TBM

Unfortunately Inlet and Outlet are exactly the same level.


Oh dear, not well designed, this makes you totally reliant on the efficiency of the water pump and the frictional losses of the hoses and matrix core, you may have a partial air lock in the heater - try a bit of a power flush with a hosepipe via the feed pipework


All the Smiths round heaters had inlet and outlet adjacent and at same level.




They relied on water pump typically taking hot feed from cylinder head often with dedicated union at rear of head to shorten pipe run. This feed was via manual gate valve in engine bay or cable operated eqivalent to allow control within vehicle. Return was to pump inlet.

They work fine providing matrix isn't clogged up. Less can be said for the demisting abilities on my Land Rover though innocent



I note mine has a T piece at the outlet with short pipe and bung to allow bleeding.


Edited by Richard Wood (29/01/19 02:35 PM)
_________________________
Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom

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#556513 - 29/01/19 10:55 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Thank you. Like the idea of making t-piece bleeder. Will try one of those.
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#556536 - 29/01/19 01:52 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: Richard Wood]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 22062
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Blimey, a hand throttle (don't see many!), plus an overdrive unit smile
I remember driving home from a swimming session many years ago in my IIa and suddenly wondering why my left foot felt hot, and damp. The heater matrix had sprung a pinhole leak - an almost imperceptible fine jet of water was heading across the cabin onto my left foot! smile
_________________________
Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper

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#556547 - 29/01/19 02:31 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Richard Wood Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 1636
Loc: East Harling, Norfolk UK
All the S2 diesels had hand throttles Graham. Essential for PTO and useful when engine very cold. Ironically mine started life as a petrol so conversion must have been very complete although it was a petrol option.

Regarding heater leak and damp legs, it must be similar to driving an M3W in the rain but with the advantage of warm water innocent
_________________________
Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom

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#556552 - 29/01/19 02:51 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 22062
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Ah, OK. Mine was a petrol. Learn something new - haven't noticed it in the history books.
First diesel LR I drove was an SIII - no hand throttle.
Had a PTO winch on my 127" (V8 originally) - one person in driver's seat for winching.
I have seen the hand throttle for SIII, we did try to fit one to the IIa, but completely different.
_________________________
Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper

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#556553 - 29/01/19 02:58 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
I had a hand throttle in my '62 S2A - that was a petrol, but had been converted from diesel.

I plumbed in a heater from a mini between the front seats, and had a Clayton square heater which I plumbed in as a demister (it came without any heater!) Used to get VERY toastie....
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#556556 - 29/01/19 03:08 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Paul F Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 20/08/10
Posts: 2287
Loc: Costock, South Nottinghamshire...
My 1978 SIII Diesel had a hand throttle.
Did try using it on the road once. Decided very quickly that this wasn't the best idea I had ever had.
_________________________
Paul
Costock, UK
2014 4/4 Rolls Royce Garnet Red
Disco 4
Teddy - 17h1 Irish Draught cross

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#556559 - 29/01/19 03:27 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 22062
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
I do wonder Phil, whether you'd be better to source a heater from a later ('74 or 5 on) heater. As you'll be aware, the old round heater wasn't known as a fug stirrer for no reason! smile
_________________________
Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper

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#556560 - 29/01/19 03:32 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Yeah, I'll persevere for a bit, but if it fails probably plumb in one of those aftermarket 5kw+ ones from car builder solutions. Should be pretty simple!
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#558983 - 10/02/19 10:40 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
I think my thermostat was sticking - yesterday the temp went very high, and then suddenly dropped back down to half way. I imagine if it's sticking closed it would also be pretty sticky open as well.

Fitted a new stat, and certainly getting a lot more warmth out of her.
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#559014 - 10/02/19 01:14 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Paul F Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 20/08/10
Posts: 2287
Loc: Costock, South Nottinghamshire...
Originally Posted By TBM
I think my thermostat was sticking - yesterday the temp went very high, and then suddenly dropped back down to half way. I imagine if it's sticking closed it would also be pretty sticky open as well.

Fitted a new stat, and certainly getting a lot more warmth out of her.


Another “lack of regular use” symptom that will not recur now you have changed the thermostat and started to use the car regularly. This phase does not last long. Our 1985 4/4 had different issues when we first got it in 2003. Less than a year into ownership and all was sorted.
_________________________
Paul
Costock, UK
2014 4/4 Rolls Royce Garnet Red
Disco 4
Teddy - 17h1 Irish Draught cross

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#559015 - 10/02/19 01:31 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Fingers crossed! Put over 1000 miles on her since I picked her up and she's definitely loosening up nicely. Just had a small PPI windfall so will get a new battery in the next few weeks.
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#559876 - 15/02/19 07:44 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Checked the anti-freeze I put in a couple of weeks and realised I stuck in OAT stuff in error. Flushed the system a few times and then had a closer look at the radiator.

A few years ago it had a rebuild by a 'non-morgan' restorer, and there are aspects where I think he didn't have a clue. As a result, the radiator was raked back, so the top of the radiator was much higher than the filler cap. The triangular top mount was bent down at a 45 degree angle. So straightened the mount, unbolted and swivelled the mount bar, and refitted. The top of the radiator now gets warm!

I think that will help get rid of any airlocks in the system and hopefully get it much warmer. I imagine if I'd been running in the summer, I may have had some overheating issues.....

(and what a joy to get home in the daylight, and be able to do an hour or so of work before it gets too dark outside)
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#560291 - 16/02/19 06:23 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Burgundymog Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 11/05/14
Posts: 3470
Loc: Essex
Originally Posted By TBM


(and what a joy to get home in the daylight, and be able to do an hour or so of work before it gets too dark outside)


You must have a good job rofl
_________________________
Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.

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#560298 - 16/02/19 07:10 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
I have! Start at 7.00am but usually leave by 4.30pm smile

And 13 weeks holiday smile
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#560385 - 17/02/19 11:21 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Guten Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 18/02/07
Posts: 336
Loc: Lincolnshire
My job's better - I retired last September.
Just a change of management really - I am after all married stirpot
englandwave
_________________________
Simon

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#560387 - 17/02/19 12:02 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Richard Wood Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 1636
Loc: East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted By TBM
I think my thermostat was sticking - yesterday the temp went very high, and then suddenly dropped back down to half way. I imagine if it's sticking closed it would also be pretty sticky open as well.

Fitted a new stat, and certainly getting a lot more warmth out of her.


You can check the function of thermostat by placing in a pan of water and heating slowly whilst monitoring temperature. There will be a temperature at which it begins to open and another where it's fully open, usually close together. It's possible to buy a thermostat which opens slowly though, check with your local motor factor.

I have a nominal 90°C one which starts to open at 65°C. Ironically this allows the vintage diesel in my narrowboat to run cooler than with the original 72°C one.
_________________________
Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom

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#560416 - 17/02/19 01:58 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
Burgundymog Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 11/05/14
Posts: 3470
Loc: Essex
Originally Posted By TBM
I have! Start at 7.00am but usually leave by 4.30pm smile

And 13 weeks holiday smile


Ah a Teacher laugh2
_________________________
Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.

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#560418 - 17/02/19 02:00 PM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: Burgundymog]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Originally Posted By Burgundymog
Originally Posted By TBM
I have! Start at 7.00am but usually leave by 4.30pm smile

And 13 weeks holiday smile


Ah a Teacher laugh2


Yep - most of the year I get told 'couldn't do your job for love nor money' and then as soon as the holidays start I'm 'the luckiest bugger on the planet' smile smile
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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#569041 - 27/03/19 11:21 AM Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM]
TBM Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 06/11/18
Posts: 432
Loc: Northants, UK
Finally decided to ditch the Smiths Heater and have gone for an aftermarket one. Got it from eBay as it's the exact same model that car builder solutions are selling, just 25% cheaper (even after their 10% discount and free delivery offer).

It's rated at 4.8kw (as opposed to under 2kw for the smiths) and has a three speed fan control. I'll keep the original switch, and then fit the rotary switch under the dash somewhere

May have to make up some brackets to fit it, but should be fairly straight forward fit. Hopefully will stop the Mrs complaining about the cold!
_________________________
1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes

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