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Smiths Round heater #555326
22/01/19 01:30 PM
22/01/19 01:30 PM
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And on to my next issue smile

I have the round Smiths Heater in the passenger footwell and although she gets a little warm, she doesn't get hot. The previous owner had a tap installed, so it must have got 'too warm' at some point in the past.

At the weekend I replaced the hoses, removed the tap and flushed the heater matrix in both directions. However she still doesn't seem to get warm.

I have one hose that goes from a 'take off' on the the water pump and into the heater matrix and a second hose that goes from the matrix to the inlet manifold.

When the engine runs, the hose from the heater matrix to manifold gets warm, whereas the hose from the water pump to heater remains cold. Personally I would have thought the opposite - the water should flow from the water pump, to the heater matrix and then back in through the manifold so the hoses should either be the same temperature, or the pump to matrix hose should be slightly warmer.

Any thoughts?

Both hoses are new. The matrix is clear and water is definitely flowing out of the water pump at pressure when running and the car maintains temperature well.


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #555327
22/01/19 02:27 PM
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Manifold to heater then return to the water pump is the correct direction. It sounds like you have an air-lock. I'd loosen the clip on the heater return hose and gently pull it away when the engine's just started to see if any air comes out.


1972 4/4 2 Seater
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: tmg513] #555329
22/01/19 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted By tmg513
Manifold to heater then return to the water pump is the correct direction. It sounds like you have an air-lock.


Ah, opposite to the way I thought and will explain why that hose gets hot first. Thank you.


Originally Posted By tmg513
I'd loosen the clip on the heater return hose and gently pull it away when the engine's just started to see if any air comes out.


I did this - got showered in fluid- there was definitely water coming out of the matrix. I'll have a crack again at the weekend and see if I can get any air out. Is there a preferred 'in and out' for the matrix? Currently the hose from manifold enters the matrix on the passenger left/passenger side and exits back to water pump on the right/drivers side.

If I was going to fit a tap, am I right to assume it should be in the hose going from manifold to matrix, rather than in the hose from matrix to pump (as fitted by Allon White).


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #555331
22/01/19 02:41 PM
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Try removing both hoses and filling the heater manually


Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #555352
22/01/19 04:33 PM
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If you feed the hot supply in to the top of a matrix & the return cooler water out of the lower level, you will aid circulation by the thermo-syphonic effect


Jon M
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #555354
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make sure a thermostat is fitted.

David Byrne

Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: CooperMan] #555366
22/01/19 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted By CooperMan
If you feed the hot supply in to the top of a matrix & the return cooler water out of the lower level, you will aid circulation by the thermo-syphonic effect


Unfortunately Inlet and Outlet are exactly the same level.


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #555387
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You could try eliminating the matrix by joining the two hoses together and seeing whether the whole length of the joined hose heats up. That should give you a better idea exactly where the problem is.


1972 4/4 2 Seater
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: tmg513] #555389
22/01/19 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted By tmg513
You could try eliminating the matrix by joining the two hoses together and seeing whether the whole length of the joined hose heats up. That should give you a better idea exactly where the problem is.


Good plan


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #555466
23/01/19 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted By TBM
Originally Posted By CooperMan
If you feed the hot supply in to the top of a matrix & the return cooler water out of the lower level, you will aid circulation by the thermo-syphonic effect


Unfortunately Inlet and Outlet are exactly the same level.


Oh dear, not well designed, this makes you totally reliant on the efficiency of the water pump and the frictional losses of the hoses and matrix core, you may have a partial air lock in the heater - try a bit of a power flush with a hosepipe via the feed pipework


Jon M
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: CooperMan] #555469
23/01/19 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted By CooperMan
try a bit of a power flush with a hosepipe via the feed pipework


Yeah,I did that in both directions and it seemed pretty clear. Will try again this weekend (weather permitting) to see if I can get rid of any airlock.


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556347
28/01/19 01:28 PM
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Once had an airlock in a Hillman imp. Engine at back heater matrix at front - nightmare.

Couple of suggestions.

1. squeeze hoses and listen - if you can hear "squelching" noises there is air in there = airlock.
2. Try carefully clamping the pump outlet pipe just after the tee off for the heater to force all the pump pressure thro heater. Do it cold when thermostat is closed.
3. you should check thermostat is working correctly - they do fail open sometimes i which case all the flow will go through the radiator reducing pressure for the heater.
4. lastly - unlikely - water pumps do loose efficiency with age if the blades are eroded.

Best of luck.

Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556358
28/01/19 02:14 PM
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Thank you.


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: CooperMan] #556504
29/01/19 10:07 AM
29/01/19 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted By CooperMan
Originally Posted By TBM

Unfortunately Inlet and Outlet are exactly the same level.


Oh dear, not well designed, this makes you totally reliant on the efficiency of the water pump and the frictional losses of the hoses and matrix core, you may have a partial air lock in the heater - try a bit of a power flush with a hosepipe via the feed pipework


All the Smiths round heaters had inlet and outlet adjacent and at same level.




They relied on water pump typically taking hot feed from cylinder head often with dedicated union at rear of head to shorten pipe run. This feed was via manual gate valve in engine bay or cable operated eqivalent to allow control within vehicle. Return was to pump inlet.

They work fine providing matrix isn't clogged up. Less can be said for the demisting abilities on my Land Rover though innocent



I note mine has a T piece at the outlet with short pipe and bung to allow bleeding.

Last edited by Richard Wood; 29/01/19 02:35 PM.

Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556513
29/01/19 10:55 AM
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Thank you. Like the idea of making t-piece bleeder. Will try one of those.


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: Richard Wood] #556536
29/01/19 01:52 PM
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Blimey, a hand throttle (don't see many!), plus an overdrive unit smile
I remember driving home from a swimming session many years ago in my IIa and suddenly wondering why my left foot felt hot, and damp. The heater matrix had sprung a pinhole leak - an almost imperceptible fine jet of water was heading across the cabin onto my left foot! smile


Graham (G4FUJ)

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Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556547
29/01/19 02:31 PM
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All the S2 diesels had hand throttles Graham. Essential for PTO and useful when engine very cold. Ironically mine started life as a petrol so conversion must have been very complete although it was a petrol option.

Regarding heater leak and damp legs, it must be similar to driving an M3W in the rain but with the advantage of warm water innocent


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556552
29/01/19 02:51 PM
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Ah, OK. Mine was a petrol. Learn something new - haven't noticed it in the history books.
First diesel LR I drove was an SIII - no hand throttle.
Had a PTO winch on my 127" (V8 originally) - one person in driver's seat for winching.
I have seen the hand throttle for SIII, we did try to fit one to the IIa, but completely different.


Graham (G4FUJ)

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Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556553
29/01/19 02:58 PM
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I had a hand throttle in my '62 S2A - that was a petrol, but had been converted from diesel.

I plumbed in a heater from a mini between the front seats, and had a Clayton square heater which I plumbed in as a demister (it came without any heater!) Used to get VERY toastie....


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556556
29/01/19 03:08 PM
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My 1978 SIII Diesel had a hand throttle.
Did try using it on the road once. Decided very quickly that this wasn't the best idea I had ever had.


Paul
Costock, UK
2014 4/4 Rolls Royce Garnet Red
Disco 4
Teddy - 17h1 Irish Draught cross
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556559
29/01/19 03:27 PM
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I do wonder Phil, whether you'd be better to source a heater from a later ('74 or 5 on) heater. As you'll be aware, the old round heater wasn't known as a fug stirrer for no reason! smile


Graham (G4FUJ)

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Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #556560
29/01/19 03:32 PM
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Yeah, I'll persevere for a bit, but if it fails probably plumb in one of those aftermarket 5kw+ ones from car builder solutions. Should be pretty simple!


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #558983
10/02/19 10:40 AM
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I think my thermostat was sticking - yesterday the temp went very high, and then suddenly dropped back down to half way. I imagine if it's sticking closed it would also be pretty sticky open as well.

Fitted a new stat, and certainly getting a lot more warmth out of her.


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #559014
10/02/19 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted By TBM
I think my thermostat was sticking - yesterday the temp went very high, and then suddenly dropped back down to half way. I imagine if it's sticking closed it would also be pretty sticky open as well.

Fitted a new stat, and certainly getting a lot more warmth out of her.


Another “lack of regular use” symptom that will not recur now you have changed the thermostat and started to use the car regularly. This phase does not last long. Our 1985 4/4 had different issues when we first got it in 2003. Less than a year into ownership and all was sorted.


Paul
Costock, UK
2014 4/4 Rolls Royce Garnet Red
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Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #559015
10/02/19 01:31 PM
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Fingers crossed! Put over 1000 miles on her since I picked her up and she's definitely loosening up nicely. Just had a small PPI windfall so will get a new battery in the next few weeks.


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #559876
15/02/19 07:44 AM
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Checked the anti-freeze I put in a couple of weeks and realised I stuck in OAT stuff in error. Flushed the system a few times and then had a closer look at the radiator.

A few years ago it had a rebuild by a 'non-morgan' restorer, and there are aspects where I think he didn't have a clue. As a result, the radiator was raked back, so the top of the radiator was much higher than the filler cap. The triangular top mount was bent down at a 45 degree angle. So straightened the mount, unbolted and swivelled the mount bar, and refitted. The top of the radiator now gets warm!

I think that will help get rid of any airlocks in the system and hopefully get it much warmer. I imagine if I'd been running in the summer, I may have had some overheating issues.....

(and what a joy to get home in the daylight, and be able to do an hour or so of work before it gets too dark outside)


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #560291
16/02/19 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted By TBM


(and what a joy to get home in the daylight, and be able to do an hour or so of work before it gets too dark outside)


You must have a good job rofl


Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #560298
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I have! Start at 7.00am but usually leave by 4.30pm smile

And 13 weeks holiday smile


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #560385
17/02/19 11:21 AM
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My job's better - I retired last September.
Just a change of management really - I am after all married stirpot
englandwave


Simon
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #560387
17/02/19 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted By TBM
I think my thermostat was sticking - yesterday the temp went very high, and then suddenly dropped back down to half way. I imagine if it's sticking closed it would also be pretty sticky open as well.

Fitted a new stat, and certainly getting a lot more warmth out of her.


You can check the function of thermostat by placing in a pan of water and heating slowly whilst monitoring temperature. There will be a temperature at which it begins to open and another where it's fully open, usually close together. It's possible to buy a thermostat which opens slowly though, check with your local motor factor.

I have a nominal 90°C one which starts to open at 65°C. Ironically this allows the vintage diesel in my narrowboat to run cooler than with the original 72°C one.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #560416
17/02/19 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted By TBM
I have! Start at 7.00am but usually leave by 4.30pm smile

And 13 weeks holiday smile


Ah a Teacher laugh2


Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: Burgundymog] #560418
17/02/19 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted By Burgundymog
Originally Posted By TBM
I have! Start at 7.00am but usually leave by 4.30pm smile

And 13 weeks holiday smile


Ah a Teacher laugh2


Yep - most of the year I get told 'couldn't do your job for love nor money' and then as soon as the holidays start I'm 'the luckiest bugger on the planet' smile smile


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #569041
27/03/19 11:21 AM
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Finally decided to ditch the Smiths Heater and have gone for an aftermarket one. Got it from eBay as it's the exact same model that car builder solutions are selling, just 25% cheaper (even after their 10% discount and free delivery offer).

It's rated at 4.8kw (as opposed to under 2kw for the smiths) and has a three speed fan control. I'll keep the original switch, and then fit the rotary switch under the dash somewhere

May have to make up some brackets to fit it, but should be fairly straight forward fit. Hopefully will stop the Mrs complaining about the cold!


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #590043
15/08/19 05:51 PM
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Finally got round to fitting it!

Three speed fan, and as it's on top of the gearbox cover there's a fighting chance I may get some warmth from it too!

[Linked Image]


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #590141
16/08/19 08:46 AM
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Well Bagpuss looks happy laugh2


Jon M
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: CooperMan] #590154
16/08/19 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CooperMan
Well Bagpuss looks happy laugh2

Will probably cook when the summer returns! grin2


Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
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'07 MINI Cooper
Re: Smiths Round heater [Re: TBM] #590787
20/08/19 08:05 AM
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Northants, UK
Fitted a bypass valve yesterday, controlled by cable from inside. Fingers crossed that will cut the heat if we ever get a summer! smile


1972 4/4 4 seater
Too many ratty motorbikes
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