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#558832 - 09/02/19 04:15 PM Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member!
MDS61 Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 08/07/15
Posts: 283
Loc: Shropshire
So the latest Miscellany arrives last weekend and there is something within the For Sale items I would like to buy.

I ring the seller last Saturday (Morgan Member - obviously) confirm the item is still for sale (I am the first caller) and after a brief chat, I agree to purchase. The item just needs to be weighed before posting and the seller agree's to call me on Monday. The payment method is confirmed and he says "thanks very much, it is sold to you".

Monday comes and goes so I text him Tuesday to remind him to call me and confirm the total amount so that I can make payment....nothing comes back from him.

So I call a few days after to confirm everything is still OK? And he states that he has sold to someone else.

When I ask him how this has transpires, he says "I don't need to explain I have just sold it" and bang the phone goes down mad2

I was kind of hoping that there was some honour amongst Morgan owners and I assume that this is NOT typical behaviour.

It IS annoying though swear
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2004 Roadster S1 3.0 V6 - "Seve"

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#558842 - 09/02/19 04:39 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Dean-Royal Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 3499
Loc: UK (up north)
WOW, something i hate, people reneging on a deal, a mans word should be final in my book, many a time i have had people make me a better offer after i have shook someones hand, all i say to them is ' would you like me to do this to you' ?


Edited by Dean-Royal (09/02/19 04:41 PM)
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#558844 - 09/02/19 04:46 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
Salty Sea Dog
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 21715
Loc: Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Unfortunately, in every sphere, there are one or two that let the side down...
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Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
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#558847 - 09/02/19 04:56 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Ray Offline

Part of the Furniture

Registered: 05/04/14
Posts: 4007
Loc: Llanelli
There is karma.
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#558848 - 09/02/19 04:56 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
andymot Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 11/09/14
Posts: 738
Loc: East Sussex, ENGLAND
Disappointing to hear - and I'd wager not usual behaviour from a Morgan owner. Everyone I have had the pleasure to deal with in the realms of Morgan has been brilliant.


Unacceptable behaviour - if that person is on here I hope you bow your head in shame.
_________________________
2015 Morgan 4/4 (Wolf tuned engine, steering and suspension)
Mazda MX5+some preserved BL relics.


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#558850 - 09/02/19 05:01 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 18877
Loc: Devonshire
Not a good experience - I have never heard of it happening on here and I have bought and sold a couple of items over the years. I am surprised that a Morgan owner would do this TBH.
_________________________
Richard
1999 Indigo +8






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#558851 - 09/02/19 05:03 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Stewart S Online   content
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10091
Loc: Lancashire, England
You have a verbal legal contract where he has agreed the sale to you verbally

It’s legally binding in contact law

You can pursue a claim in the small claims court if you like and you should even though it’s not worth it to teach a lesson
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2008 Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater

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#558853 - 09/02/19 05:12 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S]
Ian Wegg Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 2173
Loc: Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
Originally Posted By Stewart S
It’s also illegal

You have a verbal legal contract where he has agreed the sale to you verbally

It’s legally binding in contact law

I doubt that, there was no "consideration".

In the words of Samuel Goldwyn "a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it is written on". But verbal or written, if nothing of value has changed hands then there isn't a contract at all.

I would take it up with the club though, it is bad form for the magazine.
_________________________
1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater. B4771

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#558855 - 09/02/19 05:19 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Ian Wegg]
Stewart S Online   content
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10091
Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By Ian Wegg
Originally Posted By Stewart S
It’s also illegal

You have a verbal legal contract where he has agreed the sale to you verbally

It’s legally binding in contact law

I doubt that. With no "consideration" there is no contract.


No Ian I’m correct

The ‘consideration’ is clear if the price is agreed and someone has agreed to sell that for that price and the person has agreed to buy it at the price verbally
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#558857 - 09/02/19 05:23 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
HB57 Offline
New to Talk Morgan

Registered: 22/01/19
Posts: 5
Loc: London
Sorry to be pedantic but there is consideration- the price that was agreed to be paid It doesn’t have to actually change hands for it to be so.
Having said that I don’t think it’s actually illegal ( no law has been broken) but is probably a breach of contract.

P..S I’m not a lawyer just waiting for my Morgan to be built!
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#558859 - 09/02/19 05:34 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
KEVFITZ Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 26/09/14
Posts: 1377
Loc: YORK
Very disappointing !!!
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#558863 - 09/02/19 05:45 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: HB57]
Stewart S Online   content
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10091
Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By HB57
Sorry to be pedantic but there is consideration- the price that was agreed to be paid It doesn’t have to actually change hands for it to be so.
Having said that I don’t think it’s actually illegal ( no law has been broken) but is probably a breach of contract.

P..S I’m not a lawyer just waiting for my Morgan to be built!


You are right it isn’t ‘illegal’, I was being a bit overly dramatic

You are right of course it is a breach of contract

I’ve successfully faught two cases exactly like this where a judge has sided with me as the aggrieved claimant
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#558864 - 09/02/19 05:46 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S]
Hamwich Offline

Talk Morgan Guru

Registered: 28/04/08
Posts: 7149
Loc: Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted By Stewart S

No Ian I’m correct

The ‘consideration’ is clear if the price is agreed and someone has agreed to sell that for that price and the person has agreed to buy it at the price verbally


Yes, I believe Stuart is correct - although the final component, a mutual intention to be bound, could be argued to not be present if the seller always intended to sell to a higher bidder if one came along.

In any event, it's very poor form. A chap's word is his bond. Clearly the seller is no gentleman.
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Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar

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#558865 - 09/02/19 05:59 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Hamwich]
Stewart S Online   content
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10091
Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By Stewart S

No Ian I’m correct

The ‘consideration’ is clear if the price is agreed and someone has agreed to sell that for that price and the person has agreed to buy it at the price verbally


Yes, I believe Stuart is correct - although the final component, a mutual intention to be bound, could be argued to not be present if the seller always intended to sell to a higher bidder if one came along.

In any event, it's very poor form. A chap's word is his bond. Clearly the seller is no gentleman.


But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder

The only loose item which could cause an issue was the cost of postage but under the sale of good act 1982 and the later distance selling regulations of 2000, the postage is concidered a separate element to the contract if the price of the item is agreed and I would argue that if the sellers offer of the postage was too high I would have the opportunity to make alternative arrangements such as collecting the item
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#558869 - 09/02/19 06:13 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Burgundymog Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 11/05/14
Posts: 3395
Loc: Essex
I would contact the club and publishers and ask that he is banned fro using the magazine to sell items in the future. Poor form ooo
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Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.

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#558875 - 09/02/19 06:36 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Burgundymog]
Neptune Offline

Just Getting Started

Registered: 05/09/16
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would contact the club and publishers and ask that he is banned fro using the magazine to sell items in the future. Poor form ooo


Seems fair

I’ll ask the big question what is to stop the non seller being named and shamed in the interest of preventing others being frustrated by their actions?
Option B
What were you interested in buying? Just in case someone on here has similar to sell?

I know nothing about contact law/civil law so would be interested in answers.

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#558880 - 09/02/19 06:53 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
brownbaker Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 23/09/10
Posts: 830
Perhaps the other buyer was able to pick up saving the hassle of wrapping and posting?
Still not fair

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#558883 - 09/02/19 07:03 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Redfate Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 30/01/18
Posts: 73
Loc: London England
Pretty poor show, even if a cash buyer turned up and was able to collect he still should have given you that option before changing horses if you couldn't match it!
_________________________
Paul

2009 4/4 Sport in Red
2016 Harley Davidson Road Glide Ultra

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#558903 - 09/02/19 08:41 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
OZ 4/4 Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 25/11/11
Posts: 2481
Loc: Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
Extremely poor form and I would make the club and magazine aware of it.
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A Morgan Identified Fastidious Owner...
2011 4/4 Bespoke, 1981 Delorean DMC 12

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#558934 - 10/02/19 02:15 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Sportster Offline
L - Learner Plates On

Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 235
Loc: Wisconsin
Agree, very poor form. A person’s word and integrity is everything as far as I’m concerned.
_________________________
2015 M3W, Morgan Aero Racing Stage 1, Garage 56 Stage 2, sport black, saddle tan, jeweled SS dash.

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#558939 - 10/02/19 08:22 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4113
Though the OP doesnt directly say so, my guess is that the price wasnt agreed because the postage wasnt known. In this case there was no contract because there was no agreed consideration.

Not nice though. My phone is set to automatically record all calls so with that evidence of unacceptable hehavious I wouldnt hesistate to name the individual

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#558945 - 10/02/19 08:45 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
BuyBritish Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 17/01/13
Posts: 565
Loc: UK
Ok legal issues aside inform Gill Bevan the member Secretary I would not like to see this person use our club for selling again!

inform her of the members number

strike him off from selling....


Edited by BuyBritish (10/02/19 08:45 AM)
_________________________
Rob Davies
Morgan 3 Wheeler 1934 MX
Morgan Series 1 1947
Morgan +4 1956 TR4
Morgan +4 2000 T16 Rov

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#558981 - 10/02/19 10:34 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
smudger1 Offline
L - Learner Plates On

Registered: 20/05/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Durham, UK
Judge Judy would have upheld your case!
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1999 Morgan Plus 8. 3.9 ....
1961 Alvis TD21 Series1 3 Litre Auto....

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#558989 - 10/02/19 10:58 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S]
Neilda Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 26/04/12
Posts: 4387
Loc: Surrey. UK
Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.
_________________________
+8 4.8

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#558995 - 10/02/19 11:09 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
tmg513 Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Registered: 27/08/08
Posts: 1893
Loc: Powick
Unfortunately the guilty party is going to be one of only a very few advertising parts suitable for the OP's car in Miscellany and all will be placed under suspicion.
_________________________
1972 4/4 2 Seater

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#558996 - 10/02/19 11:15 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Neilda]
Stewart S Online   content
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 14/06/14
Posts: 10091
Loc: Lancashire, England
Originally Posted By Neilda
Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.


Houses and land in England are all sold ‘subject to contract’ and so the sale of goods act doesn’t apply

Slightly different in Scotland
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2008 Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater

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#559023 - 10/02/19 02:26 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S]
PaulJ Offline

Talk Morgan Addict

Registered: 16/10/11
Posts: 3194
Loc: Somerset, UK
Originally Posted By Stewart S
Originally Posted By Neilda
Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.


Houses and land in England are all sold ‘subject to contract’ and so the sale of goods act doesn’t apply

Slightly different in Scotland


Could this also apply to goods like this, if the words 'subject to contract' were spoken at the time of the offer and acceptance or is this the actual contract and no further contract can be made?
_________________________
Paul
[Beginning to get the best out of the ARP4]

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#559027 - 10/02/19 02:41 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Northernmorgan Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 22/12/18
Posts: 82
Loc: Northern England
Tricky one.......if it was purely done over the phone and you didn’t record the conversation....which why should you.....how do you prove anything?

I was gazuumped by a well known dealer a few years ago. NOT a Morgan dealer I hasten to add. Agreed that I’d have the car on Saturday, said I’d arrange for funds for the deposit on Monday only to arrive on Monday to be told it had been sold later on Saturday! I was not amused and they lost my business.
_________________________
John
1936 Austin Seven Ulster Replica

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#559032 - 10/02/19 02:58 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: tmg513]
brownbaker Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 23/09/10
Posts: 830
Yes we have all been looking through the adverts see who it could be.So not fair on the other advertisers.
But we are only hearing one side of a story !

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#559070 - 10/02/19 05:48 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: brownbaker]
MDS61 Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Registered: 08/07/15
Posts: 283
Loc: Shropshire
I have reported the seller to Gillian @ Miscellany.

Thanks for your words guys, 99% agree, that this is poor form!

Mark
_________________________
Honesty means doing it right, even when no one is looking!

2004 Roadster S1 3.0 V6 - "Seve"

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#559071 - 10/02/19 05:55 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Ian Wegg Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 2173
Loc: Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
Originally Posted By MDS61
I have reported the seller to Gillian @ Miscellany.

Thanks for your words guys, 99% agree, that this is poor form!

Mark


Although not a frequent poster, Gill is a member of TM so you could point her to this thread.
_________________________
1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater. B4771

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#559079 - 10/02/19 07:00 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
deano Online   happy

Charter Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 5279
Loc: Taunton
Very disappointing behaviour from a fellow club member.
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Martin (Deano)

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#559085 - 10/02/19 07:30 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: PaulJ]
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 4113
Originally Posted By PaulJ
Originally Posted By Stewart S
Originally Posted By Neilda
Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.


Houses and land in England are all sold ‘subject to contract’ and so the sale of goods act doesn’t apply

Slightly different in Scotland


Could this also apply to goods like this, if the words 'subject to contract' were spoken at the time of the offer and acceptance or is this the actual contract and no further contract can be made?


What is required for a contract to be made is:
1/ an offer and acceptance of that offer. The acceptance must agree entirely with the offer and must not be conditonal
2/ consideration
3/ the intention to contract

There are other requirements but not relevant here.

Subject to contract or indeed subject to anthing else including swmbo's approval means that there hasnt been acceptance in full.

The Sale of Goods Act is irrelevant

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#559093 - 10/02/19 08:38 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Arwyn Williams Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 08/08/15
Posts: 614
No holding and first to my door with the cash are my rules when I sell items.

I don't even take deposits on items, what use is taking 10% up front and waiting for the buyer to come up with balance for the next 6 months.

Arwyn

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#559101 - 10/02/19 09:26 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
ewn Offline

Has a lot to Say!

Registered: 10/04/16
Posts: 1056
Loc: NE Scotland
I agree a deal should be honoured, but there will be rules published for the sales section of Miscellany, I’ve no idea what they are, but it’s not fair to put Gill on the spot if the rules have been adhered to.

Buying and selling is full of pitfalls and people have been disappointing themselves and others since The beginning of time.

Forgive and forget, it’s not worth even an ounce of care.

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#559119 - 11/02/19 02:09 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
brownbaker Offline

Talk Morgan Regular

Registered: 23/09/10
Posts: 830
I agree with ewn,Gill should not be dragged into this silly argument.
As I wrote before again we have only has one side there are always two sides of a story.
Nobody jumped on me for saying that ?
There is privacy law so hope the seller is not named.
What is a shame this site will destroy itself with silly one sided arguments.

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#559211 - 11/02/19 05:38 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
Bonesie Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 12/12/18
Posts: 61
Loc: Yorkshireman living in Surrey
Bad form, no doubt.

The OP is right to feel a bit miffed.
_________________________
Bonsie.

'Life is like a garden, dig it' *Joe Dirt farmer

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#559270 - 11/02/19 09:56 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: brownbaker]
OZ 4/4 Offline

Talk Morgan Expert

Registered: 25/11/11
Posts: 2481
Loc: Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
Originally Posted By brownbaker
I agree with ewn,Gill should not be dragged into this silly argument.
As I wrote before again we have only has one side there are always two sides of a story.
Nobody jumped on me for saying that ?
There is privacy law so hope the seller is not named.
What is a shame this site will destroy itself with silly one sided arguments.


No need for an argument. MDS61 has described what happened and if that's the case put that position clearly to MSCC and the Mag providing the vendor with a right of reply.....
_________________________
A Morgan Identified Fastidious Owner...
2011 4/4 Bespoke, 1981 Delorean DMC 12

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#559273 - 11/02/19 10:15 PM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61]
+8Rich Offline

Member of the Inner Circle

Registered: 15/12/09
Posts: 18877
Loc: Devonshire
I'm not an MSCC member but I do feel a bit sorry that this has been made very public on here and hope it doesn't create any negative effects for Simon etc.
I do feel sorry for the OP but feel that an email to the MSCC Classifieds maybe would have worked more effectively.
_________________________
Richard
1999 Indigo +8






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#559311 - 12/02/19 08:29 AM Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: +8Rich]
Northernmorgan Offline
Just Getting Started

Registered: 22/12/18
Posts: 82
Loc: Northern England
I agree Richard. It’s really between the OP, vendor and the club. These things happen in life sadly, it’s a shame but not the end of the world.
_________________________
John
1936 Austin Seven Ulster Replica

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