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Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! #558832
09/02/19 04:15 PM
09/02/19 04:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 415
Shropshire
MDS61 Offline OP
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So the latest Miscellany arrives last weekend and there is something within the For Sale items I would like to buy.

I ring the seller last Saturday (Morgan Member - obviously) confirm the item is still for sale (I am the first caller) and after a brief chat, I agree to purchase. The item just needs to be weighed before posting and the seller agree's to call me on Monday. The payment method is confirmed and he says "thanks very much, it is sold to you".

Monday comes and goes so I text him Tuesday to remind him to call me and confirm the total amount so that I can make payment....nothing comes back from him.

So I call a few days after to confirm everything is still OK? And he states that he has sold to someone else.

When I ask him how this has transpires, he says "I don't need to explain I have just sold it" and bang the phone goes down mad2

I was kind of hoping that there was some honour amongst Morgan owners and I assume that this is NOT typical behaviour.

It IS annoying though swear


Honesty means doing it right, even when no one is looking!

2004 Roadster S1 3.0 V6 - "Seve"
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558842
09/02/19 04:39 PM
09/02/19 04:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,650
UK (up north)
Dean-Royal Offline
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UK (up north)
WOW, something i hate, people reneging on a deal, a mans word should be final in my book, many a time i have had people make me a better offer after i have shook someones hand, all i say to them is ' would you like me to do this to you' ?

Last edited by Dean-Royal; 09/02/19 04:41 PM.

www.generalpaint.biz/color.php Problem with your Colour, we offer TM members impartial advice.
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558844
09/02/19 04:46 PM
09/02/19 04:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,401
Cheltenham, Glos. UK
Graham, G4FUJ Offline
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Unfortunately, in every sphere, there are one or two that let the side down...


Graham (G4FUJ)

D8921 L44FOR '93 4/4 Giallo Fly 2 seat smile
'90 LR 90 SW
'07 MINI Cooper
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558847
09/02/19 04:56 PM
09/02/19 04:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4,257
Llanelli
Ray Offline
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Ray  Offline
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Llanelli
There is karma.


.+8 Now gone for a 1800 4/4. Duratec in bright yellow.
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558848
09/02/19 04:56 PM
09/02/19 04:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 788
East Sussex, ENGLAND
andymot Offline
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Disappointing to hear - and I'd wager not usual behaviour from a Morgan owner. Everyone I have had the pleasure to deal with in the realms of Morgan has been brilliant.


Unacceptable behaviour - if that person is on here I hope you bow your head in shame.


2015 Morgan 4/4 (Wolf tuned engine, steering and suspension)
Mazda MX5+some preserved BL relics.

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558850
09/02/19 05:01 PM
09/02/19 05:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,383
Devonshire
+8Rich Offline
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Devonshire
Not a good experience - I have never heard of it happening on here and I have bought and sold a couple of items over the years. I am surprised that a Morgan owner would do this TBH.


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green
1994 Connaught Green +8





Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558851
09/02/19 05:03 PM
09/02/19 05:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 10,670
Lancashire, England
Stewart S Offline
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You have a verbal legal contract where he has agreed the sale to you verbally

It’s legally binding in contact law

You can pursue a claim in the small claims court if you like and you should even though it’s not worth it to teach a lesson


2008 Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S] #558853
09/02/19 05:12 PM
09/02/19 05:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,258
Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
Ian Wegg Offline
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Originally Posted By Stewart S
It’s also illegal

You have a verbal legal contract where he has agreed the sale to you verbally

It’s legally binding in contact law

I doubt that, there was no "consideration".

In the words of Samuel Goldwyn "a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it is written on". But verbal or written, if nothing of value has changed hands then there isn't a contract at all.

I would take it up with the club though, it is bad form for the magazine.


1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater. B4771
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Ian Wegg] #558855
09/02/19 05:19 PM
09/02/19 05:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 10,670
Lancashire, England
Stewart S Offline
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Originally Posted By Ian Wegg
Originally Posted By Stewart S
It’s also illegal

You have a verbal legal contract where he has agreed the sale to you verbally

It’s legally binding in contact law

I doubt that. With no "consideration" there is no contract.


No Ian I’m correct

The ‘consideration’ is clear if the price is agreed and someone has agreed to sell that for that price and the person has agreed to buy it at the price verbally


2008 Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558857
09/02/19 05:23 PM
09/02/19 05:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 17
London
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HB57 Offline
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London
Sorry to be pedantic but there is consideration- the price that was agreed to be paid It doesn’t have to actually change hands for it to be so.
Having said that I don’t think it’s actually illegal ( no law has been broken) but is probably a breach of contract.

P..S I’m not a lawyer just waiting for my Morgan to be built!


Plus 4 110
HB57MOG
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558859
09/02/19 05:34 PM
09/02/19 05:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,610
YORK
KEVFITZ Offline
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YORK
Very disappointing !!!


HEAR THOSE THROTTLE BODIES ROAR ….UNEXPLODED BOMB !!!!
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: HB57] #558863
09/02/19 05:45 PM
09/02/19 05:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 10,670
Lancashire, England
Stewart S Offline
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Originally Posted By HB57
Sorry to be pedantic but there is consideration- the price that was agreed to be paid It doesn’t have to actually change hands for it to be so.
Having said that I don’t think it’s actually illegal ( no law has been broken) but is probably a breach of contract.

P..S I’m not a lawyer just waiting for my Morgan to be built!


You are right it isn’t ‘illegal’, I was being a bit overly dramatic

You are right of course it is a breach of contract

I’ve successfully faught two cases exactly like this where a judge has sided with me as the aggrieved claimant


2008 Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S] #558864
09/02/19 05:46 PM
09/02/19 05:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,621
Gloucestershire, UK
Hamwich Offline
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Originally Posted By Stewart S

No Ian I’m correct

The ‘consideration’ is clear if the price is agreed and someone has agreed to sell that for that price and the person has agreed to buy it at the price verbally


Yes, I believe Stuart is correct - although the final component, a mutual intention to be bound, could be argued to not be present if the seller always intended to sell to a higher bidder if one came along.

In any event, it's very poor form. A chap's word is his bond. Clearly the seller is no gentleman.


Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Hamwich] #558865
09/02/19 05:59 PM
09/02/19 05:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 10,670
Lancashire, England
Stewart S Offline
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Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By Stewart S

No Ian I’m correct

The ‘consideration’ is clear if the price is agreed and someone has agreed to sell that for that price and the person has agreed to buy it at the price verbally


Yes, I believe Stuart is correct - although the final component, a mutual intention to be bound, could be argued to not be present if the seller always intended to sell to a higher bidder if one came along.

In any event, it's very poor form. A chap's word is his bond. Clearly the seller is no gentleman.


But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder

The only loose item which could cause an issue was the cost of postage but under the sale of good act 1982 and the later distance selling regulations of 2000, the postage is concidered a separate element to the contract if the price of the item is agreed and I would argue that if the sellers offer of the postage was too high I would have the opportunity to make alternative arrangements such as collecting the item


2008 Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558869
09/02/19 06:13 PM
09/02/19 06:13 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,543
Essex
Burgundymog Offline
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Essex
I would contact the club and publishers and ask that he is banned fro using the magazine to sell items in the future. Poor form ooo


Keith
2013 narrow bodied + 4 Ruby. Wolf performance Re-map suspension mods and K&N cone filter.
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Burgundymog] #558875
09/02/19 06:36 PM
09/02/19 06:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 172
N
Neptune Offline
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Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would contact the club and publishers and ask that he is banned fro using the magazine to sell items in the future. Poor form ooo


Seems fair

I’ll ask the big question what is to stop the non seller being named and shamed in the interest of preventing others being frustrated by their actions?
Option B
What were you interested in buying? Just in case someone on here has similar to sell?

I know nothing about contact law/civil law so would be interested in answers.

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558880
09/02/19 06:53 PM
09/02/19 06:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 873
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Perhaps the other buyer was able to pick up saving the hassle of wrapping and posting?
Still not fair

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558883
09/02/19 07:03 PM
09/02/19 07:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 105
London England
Redfate Offline
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London England
Pretty poor show, even if a cash buyer turned up and was able to collect he still should have given you that option before changing horses if you couldn't match it!


Paul

2009 4/4 Sport in Red
2016 Harley Davidson Road Glide Ultra
1976 Honda Goldwing GL1000
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558903
09/02/19 08:41 PM
09/02/19 08:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,749
Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
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Extremely poor form and I would make the club and magazine aware of it.


A Morgan Identified Fastidious Owner...
2011 4/4 Bespoke, 1981 Delorean, 1936 Auburn Boat Tail
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558934
10/02/19 02:15 AM
10/02/19 02:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 262
Wisconsin
Sportster Offline
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Wisconsin
Agree, very poor form. A person’s word and integrity is everything as far as I’m concerned.


2015 M3W, Morgan Aero Racing Stage 1, Garage 56 Stage 2, sport black, saddle tan, jeweled SS dash.
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558939
10/02/19 08:22 AM
10/02/19 08:22 AM
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Posts: 4,336
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howard Offline
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Though the OP doesnt directly say so, my guess is that the price wasnt agreed because the postage wasnt known. In this case there was no contract because there was no agreed consideration.

Not nice though. My phone is set to automatically record all calls so with that evidence of unacceptable hehavious I wouldnt hesistate to name the individual

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558945
10/02/19 08:45 AM
10/02/19 08:45 AM
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Posts: 615
UK
BuyBritish Offline
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Ok legal issues aside inform Gill Bevan the member Secretary I would not like to see this person use our club for selling again!

inform her of the members number

strike him off from selling....

Last edited by BuyBritish; 10/02/19 08:45 AM.

Rob Davies
Morgan 3 Wheeler 1934 MX
Morgan Series 1 1947
Morgan +4 1956 TR4
Morgan +4 2000 T16 Rov
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558981
10/02/19 10:34 AM
10/02/19 10:34 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 175
Durham, UK
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Durham, UK
Judge Judy would have upheld your case!


1999 Morgan Plus 8. 3.9 ....
1961 Alvis TD21 Series1 3 Litre Auto....
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S] #558989
10/02/19 10:58 AM
10/02/19 10:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,521
Surrey. UK
Neilda Offline
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Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.


+8 4.8
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #558995
10/02/19 11:09 AM
10/02/19 11:09 AM
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Posts: 2,019
Powick
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Unfortunately the guilty party is going to be one of only a very few advertising parts suitable for the OP's car in Miscellany and all will be placed under suspicion.


1972 4/4 2 Seater
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Neilda] #558996
10/02/19 11:15 AM
10/02/19 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 10,670
Lancashire, England
Stewart S Offline
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Originally Posted By Neilda
Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.


Houses and land in England are all sold ‘subject to contract’ and so the sale of goods act doesn’t apply

Slightly different in Scotland


2008 Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: Stewart S] #559023
10/02/19 02:26 PM
10/02/19 02:26 PM
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Posts: 3,292
Somerset, UK
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Originally Posted By Stewart S
Originally Posted By Neilda
Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.


Houses and land in England are all sold ‘subject to contract’ and so the sale of goods act doesn’t apply

Slightly different in Scotland


Could this also apply to goods like this, if the words 'subject to contract' were spoken at the time of the offer and acceptance or is this the actual contract and no further contract can be made?


Paul
[Beginning to get the best out of the ARP4]
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559027
10/02/19 02:41 PM
10/02/19 02:41 PM
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Posts: 308
Northern England
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Tricky one.......if it was purely done over the phone and you didn’t record the conversation....which why should you.....how do you prove anything?

I was gazuumped by a well known dealer a few years ago. NOT a Morgan dealer I hasten to add. Agreed that I’d have the car on Saturday, said I’d arrange for funds for the deposit on Monday only to arrive on Monday to be told it had been sold later on Saturday! I was not amused and they lost my business.


John
1936 Austin Seven Ulster Replica
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: tmg513] #559032
10/02/19 02:58 PM
10/02/19 02:58 PM
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brownbaker Offline
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Yes we have all been looking through the adverts see who it could be.So not fair on the other advertisers.
But we are only hearing one side of a story !

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: brownbaker] #559070
10/02/19 05:48 PM
10/02/19 05:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 415
Shropshire
MDS61 Offline OP
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I have reported the seller to Gillian @ Miscellany.

Thanks for your words guys, 99% agree, that this is poor form!

Mark


Honesty means doing it right, even when no one is looking!

2004 Roadster S1 3.0 V6 - "Seve"
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559071
10/02/19 05:55 PM
10/02/19 05:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,258
Petersfield, Hampshire, UK
Ian Wegg Offline
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Originally Posted By MDS61
I have reported the seller to Gillian @ Miscellany.

Thanks for your words guys, 99% agree, that this is poor form!

Mark


Although not a frequent poster, Gill is a member of TM so you could point her to this thread.


1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater. B4771
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559079
10/02/19 07:00 PM
10/02/19 07:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,382
Taunton
deano Offline
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Very disappointing behaviour from a fellow club member.


Martin (Deano)
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: PaulJ] #559085
10/02/19 07:30 PM
10/02/19 07:30 PM
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Posts: 4,336
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howard Offline
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Originally Posted By PaulJ
Originally Posted By Stewart S
Originally Posted By Neilda
Originally Posted By Stewart S

But once the seller has agreed to sell to the buyer at the price verbally agreed the seller can not sell to higher bidder


This happens in property selling - gazumping. Which is not illegal in England.


Houses and land in England are all sold ‘subject to contract’ and so the sale of goods act doesn’t apply

Slightly different in Scotland


Could this also apply to goods like this, if the words 'subject to contract' were spoken at the time of the offer and acceptance or is this the actual contract and no further contract can be made?


What is required for a contract to be made is:
1/ an offer and acceptance of that offer. The acceptance must agree entirely with the offer and must not be conditonal
2/ consideration
3/ the intention to contract

There are other requirements but not relevant here.

Subject to contract or indeed subject to anthing else including swmbo's approval means that there hasnt been acceptance in full.

The Sale of Goods Act is irrelevant

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559093
10/02/19 08:38 PM
10/02/19 08:38 PM
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No holding and first to my door with the cash are my rules when I sell items.

I don't even take deposits on items, what use is taking 10% up front and waiting for the buyer to come up with balance for the next 6 months.

Arwyn

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559101
10/02/19 09:26 PM
10/02/19 09:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,236
NE Scotland
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I agree a deal should be honoured, but there will be rules published for the sales section of Miscellany, I’ve no idea what they are, but it’s not fair to put Gill on the spot if the rules have been adhered to.

Buying and selling is full of pitfalls and people have been disappointing themselves and others since The beginning of time.

Forgive and forget, it’s not worth even an ounce of care.

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559119
11/02/19 02:09 AM
11/02/19 02:09 AM
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I agree with ewn,Gill should not be dragged into this silly argument.
As I wrote before again we have only has one side there are always two sides of a story.
Nobody jumped on me for saying that ?
There is privacy law so hope the seller is not named.
What is a shame this site will destroy itself with silly one sided arguments.

Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559211
11/02/19 05:38 PM
11/02/19 05:38 PM
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Posts: 361
Yorkshireman living in Surrey
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Bad form, no doubt.

The OP is right to feel a bit miffed.


Bonesie

Current stead -'The Captain' Black +4

'Life is like a garden, dig it' *Joe Dirt farmer
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: brownbaker] #559270
11/02/19 09:56 PM
11/02/19 09:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,749
Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
OZ 4/4 Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
OZ 4/4  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,749
Australia - NSW Mid North Coas...
Originally Posted By brownbaker
I agree with ewn,Gill should not be dragged into this silly argument.
As I wrote before again we have only has one side there are always two sides of a story.
Nobody jumped on me for saying that ?
There is privacy law so hope the seller is not named.
What is a shame this site will destroy itself with silly one sided arguments.


No need for an argument. MDS61 has described what happened and if that's the case put that position clearly to MSCC and the Mag providing the vendor with a right of reply.....


A Morgan Identified Fastidious Owner...
2011 4/4 Bespoke, 1981 Delorean, 1936 Auburn Boat Tail
Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: MDS61] #559273
11/02/19 10:15 PM
11/02/19 10:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,383
Devonshire
+8Rich Offline
Member of the Inner Circle
+8Rich  Offline
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,383
Devonshire
I'm not an MSCC member but I do feel a bit sorry that this has been made very public on here and hope it doesn't create any negative effects for Simon etc.
I do feel sorry for the OP but feel that an email to the MSCC Classifieds maybe would have worked more effectively.


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green
1994 Connaught Green +8





Re: Disappointed by fellow Morgan owner/member! [Re: +8Rich] #559311
12/02/19 08:29 AM
12/02/19 08:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 308
Northern England
Northernmorgan Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Northernmorgan  Offline
Learner Plates Off!

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 308
Northern England
I agree Richard. It’s really between the OP, vendor and the club. These things happen in life sadly, it’s a shame but not the end of the world.


John
1936 Austin Seven Ulster Replica
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