Having just read the post about 'Factory visit 2nd September', this 'Plus Six' thing is actually beginning to bug me!

I see it as a big step away from all the virtues that drew me and probably many other proud Morgan owners to the 'Trad' in the first place. Seeing the photo of all those aluminium chassis/bodies reminds me of my tour of the Lotus factory. Repeated 'mass production'. The use of wood is minimal. I even wonder why MMC bother with it... as in the Plus Six it seems to be very much a 'sit on top of the chassis/body' rather than the entire body 'integration' that the trad has. This could be done much cheaper and more efficiently using a modern material... it's almost that they realise that they still have to use wood in order to retain a sense of Morgan DNA...

That DNA also includes shuttle shake, questionable 'handling', the traditional suspension systems, skinny tyres, small rev happy engines and the knowledge that the trad has been built in virtually the same way as it was over 80 years ago,

The Plus Six to me, I think its not a Morgan. It just looks like a Morgan. It's obviously great for jobs and the company and as a 'car', it seems like a great product. Clearly it is also attracting an entire new 'type' of purchaser/owner because it is faster, handles like a modern car, is safer and more comfortable. What's not to like?!

I think we will see lots of used versions hitting the market again in 1-2 years as the 'shine' wears off and 'modern car' boredom sets it. I personally could never imagine feeling truly 'connected' when I opened my garage door on a sunny and frosty winters day, to reveal and drive a Plus Six ... but most certainly I do feel that and much more with the 'Trad'. It's not just the car... its the whole adventure and the connection and 'escape' to a bygone era that the trad gives. Especially the 4/4.

All IMHO of course!

Good summary but what's the difference to the present Plus8?
Actually the Plus 8 has nothing in common with technology of the trad-models. It only looks close to a traditional Morgan, it is not raintight, has got poor aerodynamics and there is no trunk.

Most likely quality issues and limited end control will remain within the Morgan standards.

I thought the same regarding the new Plus six vs. the BMW/Aero Plus 8. Not so much difference principally. The emotional difference may be that one had a choice until now between those and a Trad, but when all new Morgans should become CX platform cars then it is a new situation and the era of the traditional fully coach builded cars is gone. TBH some of us will be sad including me but the new buyers less so I think.

Pete -precisely the reasons that the 4/4 should be allowed to carry on, and its the one with the most history, now what 1600-2000cc or little turbo can we use?

As long as it leaks and rattles and takes a bit of effort on the owners part it’s a real Morgan to me. Love it!

If it is built in the Morgan works in Malvern — it IS a Morgan!!!

The plus 6 does have wood , just as much as other Morgans , it has a better chassis because its stronger but lighter , the company can't stand still and this car has been well recieved and has 200 orders already , its a success , well done MMC. I've been round the factory 2 weeks ago and it was great to see whats going on , and with the new investment its a very exiting prospect !!

Ask 10 Morgan owners "what makes a Morgan?" and you'll get 12 different answers! Using the definition "That DNA also includes shuttle shake, questionable 'handling', the traditional suspension systems, skinny tyres, small rev happy engines..." would mean that my '96 Plus 8 isn't really a Morgan. I have little if any scuttle shake, SSL suspension front and rear (transforms the handling and comfort but retains the Morgan drive characteristics), fat tyres (to cope with the V8 power) and a large torquey 3.9litre V8.
I think the Plus Six looks like a great car but I wouldn't swap it for my Plus 8 because if I wanted a modern automatic gearbox car I'd drive our Merc or 911, the Mog is a very different drive and it's "back to basics" feel is what makes it so appealing to me to drive.
It looks like the Plus Six is going to be a great success and that will be beneficial to MMC and ensure that they're around in the future, so good for us trad owners in the long run.

200 orders already! Would have been 201 had my premium bond numbers come up this morning!

A straight six has it's own lovely sound. Better or worse than a V8 is subjective.

Interesting that the DVLA registration site shows the two MMC registered test cars I've seen (VF19 DGZ, VF19 DGA) as having CO2 emissions of 149g/km. The latest price list quotes BMW figures of 170g/km admittedly commenting this may vary with tyre choice and other options, suggesting to me it may be higher and highlighting the difference in the two. Has anyone seen a dealers car fully registered yet?

Settle down guys....(-: Perhaps best not to slip into creating divisions as seems so simple to do, what might be the advantages in doing that..?

I am a self confessed CARsonova when it comes to machinery of many types, I like to look around and appreciate, touch, feel, listen smell...(-: Smell you ask..? Yeah well you ain`t lived until you have caught the aroma of Castrol R on a misty morning at the race track...(-: I have been fortunate to have hands-on with a variety of vehicles and have developed a fondness for a number of marques, therefore the idea of being some sort of mechanical monogamist lacks appeal for me. I do understand that it is in the nature of some to require to be faithful and perhaps overly so to some sort of ideal, but that might just seem to have potential to create division..? Note to self ....Don`t mention Brexit..(-:

I have identified myself as holding Luddite tendencies..(-: I have also typed perhaps too much on my ideals re my choice of a Morgan, also how and why I arrived at feeling most fortunate to find an old Morgan +8 filled the bill, and in truth even exceeded my expectations of it, in terms of my requirements for a recreational vehicle/fun car. Are there other vehicles that could replace my Morgan`s current duties.... yes, but not within my budget and not quite as well, thus the Morgan has inhabited my garage for the last 16 years or so and may stay there for a bit longer. Would I swap it for a new +6, the short answer is no... I do not usually do short answers..(-:

As for the evolution of Morgan I think it is great that the factory still exists providing folk with job and families with incomes when so many others are loosing their employment opportunities in the automotive and other UK industries, be it to robotics or culturally adopted inefficiencies compared to "foreign" workers prepared to work harder and for MUCH less... Perhaps try beaming up Netflix movie... American Factory.... a documentary with a difference ....?

As our American cousins can be heard to say... "Wake up and smell the coffee".. ?

In an attempt to get back on topic... I ever thought the 4/4 was THE quintessential four wheel Morgan with the potential to be the more balanced all rounder in it`s traditional configuration..

Just thinking in type, and happy to discuss in a friendly manner..

The horse and cart were great, why do we need a motor car....

I got into Morgans when the Aero was launched, ordered one and was about 560 on the ordering list. For various reasons, when I was offered a build slot (numbered in the 60s) I swapped the order for the Trad +8 that I still have. So I had, and still have, a lot of time and respect for the Aero Cars. When the AeroTrad was launched it did not appeal to me at all, I regarded it as a silhouette car and thought that they would sell 10! As it turns out and fortunately for the MMC many people had different views.

With the launch of the Plus 6, I have finally come round, and it is a car that i could see myself owning (If I could justify the cost, which I cannot).

Morgan have to change, If the trad range finally disappears it will be in the same way as the Land Rover, a lack of profitability dressed up as a regulatory issues.

I would rather have Morgan existing with the CX chassis range, than fail producing Trads.

Very good Mark - but you would be in a different trade!



As of the end of last Thursday it was 177 - Peter exaggerated slightly Steve
I'm not back in until this Thursday coming, will enquire how things stand then - for tour information, obviously (someone always asks the question now!).

Perhaps the Trad 4/4 needs, like the Lotus 7, to be taken into care by a smaller company and made for those who want them, and as a provider of spares.
It worked for Caterham, why not for "Malvern Cars"?

That is a good idea Peter.

The Plus Six has a significant wood frame.......go and look!

And lets face it, if in twelve months or so the market is awash with green or silver Plus Sixes........then those who want a bargain should get one.

I do think though, that the "two colour" launch, while making it cost effective, in the long term might make these early cars less popular than the later bespoke ones.

And there are one or two 4/4's in build.........one in the chassis shop.

Unfortunately I do think the Plus 6 sounds the death nell of the Traditional Mog, not immediately but over time and while I think that is a great shame I can see it as progress for Morgan. I can also see the point that there may be considerable numbers of second hand Sixes on the market after a couple of years as owners of a “more normal car” do not get the same affinity with the car that we the traditional owner get. It won’t do any harm to second hand values of the trad.

On a quick scan it seems that s/h prices remain strong anyway, and when one waits a bit before deciding that one would like to change there is little loss and in some cases a gain. Coincidently
as there is often a reference to questionable handling, I have not found this to be the case. Indeed my new P4, with its adjustable shocks and panhard rod seems to have a quick turn in, a very planted feel and is well able to make good progress. The test for me is a long steep hill near us which has many twists and three very sharp turns. My Roadster behaves very well on it but the new car might well outperform it as it certainly does with folks trying to keep up. So okay I am not finding the limit of adhesion and I am after all driving on public roads never the less I have no complaints and only wish that I could keep them both. I drove one of VW's offerings on the same hill recently and enjoyed it much less.

I think the plus 6 is brilliant. Brilliant better quality, brilliant engineering, brilliant number of orders, brilliant move forward for the factory. To move with the times takes brilliant management vision. I applaud them.

I won't be buying one though because I fell in love with Morgan cars when they were relatively cheap. By which I mean that the 4/4 was mgb price, the plus 8 offered supercar performance for saloon car money. I remember reading the review of the first plus 8 and it talked of the driver rejecting everything about modern cars except performance. Then when I looked at the factory history I saw it was built upon the cheap, reliable 3 wheeler models which were cheap to buy, cheap to tax and cheap to run. That was what I fell in love with and that is a situation or philosophy which has completely reversed today. The cars are expensive. The 3 wheeler is not cheap to buy, tax or run. It's a complete reversal of what I saw.
But that's the modern world. It's me that's out of step not the factory. They're successfully moving on and I'm not! So I love and applaud them, but for me, I'm moving towards selling my modern 4/4 and buying a really old one. Just as a pet really.
The MMC won't miss me and I won't miss them because I shall still visit and admire the modern output. I'll still cheer them on wherever possible. But an automatic roadster just isn't for me.
Nick

... "but for me, I'm moving towards selling my modern 4/4 and buying a really old one. Just as a pet really..."

I totally 'get' this concept!

My 90 year old dad frequently effuses stuff about the early Morgans... he was so pleased that I changed from a Plus 4 to a 4/4. I love my car for that and many other reasons... I would also love to buy a really old 4/4 as well...

Having given this a LOT of thought over the last few months, would I buy a Plus Six... No. I would keep my 4/4 as my 'Morgan' and buy an bonded aluminium chassis, hand built, Lotus Exige 'Roadster' as my 'modern go faster, handle better weekend sports car. Bloody good DNA as well. And a bit cheaper :>)

I totally agree and am so pleased for the MMC that the Plus Six is starting off it's life so well. It will indeed be great when we begin to see the 'bespoke' ordered cars hitting the streets and even more so if it's eventually offered as a manual. I don't think the Plus Six will 'fit' the traditional colours etc... as a 'modern Morgan' I can see some really neat contemporary colour combinations looking totally awesome. I am sure there will be a 'track focused' version as well.

Jeez it's great that we are all different! It's also great having such a great 'forum' here .

Well spotted Richard, one of my apps says DGZ is registered as an Aero 8, with 367bhp !

You are not being consistent. In the spectrum from old 1930s car to modern car, all tha has happened is that the trad in the form of the plus 6 has been moved on a bit. The Trad you have is not an old or classic car - it has modern mechanicals even if the chassis and running gear is archaic. The Plus 6 modernises the runing gear but the construction and style and aero etc are all from the 30s. The lack of any sensible luggage space for example. The lack of proper windows. The use of wood. The location of the engine.

The Plus 6 is not a modern car. The Trad is not an old car. Both are a sanitised pastiche of a 1930s roadster. But it looks as if there is a good demand for just such a car which is great news.

I might even buy one myself if MMC get rid of that horrific gear lever and gear box. Currently the plus 6 with that gear lever is like a picture of the Mona Lisa holding an I phone. Totally incongruous

Steady on chaps, we're beginning to sound like some of the old three wheeler stalwarts who tried to ban the owners of the modern 3 from even joining the MTWC

For me if you like (or love) Morgans, then the new PlusSix may be the saviour of the future security of MMC, especially if it opens up new markets & new to Mog driver appeal

If you prefer your Trad, great, keep it. If you want to try the CX platform cars, great, MMC will not survive long term without evolving

This pretty much sums up my attitude to modern Morgans except I don't think the Plus 6 is brilliant, it's an automatic FFS. It's not just the cars that are expensive either, the price of spares is stupid nowadays: the other week I went to the factory to buy a pair of engine mounts for my 4/4; they wanted £62 a side for them and even the guy on the spares counter seemed embarrassed; I bought them off Burtonpower for £9 each.

The Aero 8 came along and people still bought the Trad. The Plus Six will not stop people buying the trad as it is very different. I hope it attracts a new range of buyers as the Aero8 did 18 years ago. They are not mutually exclusive or at the cost of the other from my viewpoint.

I am certain the team have considered the future as we have all speculated on several other threads.

Today
CX chassis with TurboIL6
Trad (various)
M3W

Perhaps Tomorrow
CX with Turbo IL6 to rget
CX with Turbo IL4 to reduce cost in many markets but still more expensive than Trad
CX with Turbo IL3 as above (emissions)
Trad to get Turbo IL3 as engine ranges consolidate
Trad to get Turbo IL4 as sporty model with lower emissions for other markets.
M3w to get Plus Six engine - didn't you ever see Honda 1986 CB-X 6 cyl!

Nice CBX Alistair!

I have to say that when I purchased the Plus 4 it was more the vintage look that attracted me and the fact that it had modern mechanical components. I have to say that I would have been happier not to have to grease kingpins, to have ABS, and to have more modern suspension. If you go back to look at some of my earliest posts you would see that I had always desired, and felt Morgan should build, something more modern in the underpinnings whist maintaining the classic look. The last of the V8s did exactly this but I did not want so much power. The same applies to the Plus 6.

As a concept I love it. For me the 2 litre, 4 cylinder, version which must be on the horizon will sell like hotcakes.

My only criticism of the Plus 6 is that I firmly believe Morgan should have fitted traction control. To my mind the car is too powerful for its weight not to have traction control.

Very probable

Some time ago I was told a turbo charged engine in a trad was not possible, but none the less is has been done


Or

You completely highlight all the reasons why I want to buy an old Morgan. It's a fun car and I don't want any of those "driver aids" in it! I've got all that in my daily car; I want a difference in my fun car. And all the electronics...the pictures Dave W posted seem to me to show electronic boxes in the doors...!
That's why I don't feel I can go forward with them....all future models will have to have all this stuff that makes us forget how to drive (e.g. my daily has a thing where the brakes stay on after you release the handbrake to allow you to get the clutch to biting. But all it does is trip me up because I learned to do it without the delay.).
So that's not MMC's fault that I don't want what they are forced to incorporate. They move forward (thank goodness for newer owners) but for me, as a dinosaur, I want purity, no electronic aids, I actively want to know which way up the coin I'm running over is.
There's more fun for me in getting round a tough corner at 35mph knowing I had to use skill, than getting round it at 60mph thanks to the car automatically braking some wheels and getting me round.
Nick

But as in everything, there is a balance. Most of us petrolheads dont want the fancy electronics. But do we really want floppy chassis, cart springs, drum brakes, leaks and bits that drop off? Surely you want a car that incorporates the best of modern design and manufacture but without the electrons whizzing round integrated circuits. Something like say the Lotus of the late 90s. Or indeed the plus 6 without that horrific gearbox.

After all, you mostly all go for modern engines in your Trad. Why stop at engines? Why not proper brakes as well?

+1

ABS is a valuable safety feature. I don't care how good a driver you think you are unless you train yourself in emergency stopping on a regular basis you will not out brake ABS in an emergency. When something happens in front of you, say a child running onto the road, you will plant your foot on the brake and lock up. You may have time to ease off and reapply but you will not beat the stopping distance of ABS. When I was a bike riding instructor I used to practice emergency stopping on a regular basis.

Still didn't stop me having a serious accident when a drunk driver turned in front of me

Regarding traction control: the same applies. How many times have we seen videos of drivers loosing control of super cars because they used too much right foot. As mentioned in another thread most Morgan buyers are no longer young. That equates to slow reaction times, and not all of us were hot shot rally drivers in our youth (even if we thought we were). I worry abut the lack of traction control on a car that has the power to weight ratio of the Plus 6. It is probably not needed on the smaller trads but even a Roadster must be getting marginal.

An automatic with paddle change can be a lot of fun but does take getting accustomed to. I often use it on the Jaguar which is the first automatic that I have owned other than the temporary ownership of a small Mazda when I could not drive a manual till I recovered from an injury. More and more cars will be offered only with an automatic gearbox so you might as well get used to it. The Maserati Ghibli is one example that springs to mind.

There are still those out there who believe the last true Morgan was a flatrad but the world moves on regardless

Believe me, when I open my garage door and drive this- I am “ escaping”

There's a difference between driver aids and safety systems. Basically, if a safety system (e.g. ABS, traction control) kicks in, and you haven't deliberately provoked it; you've got it wrong somewhere and aren't as good a driver as you think you are. I want those.

What driver aids does the +6 come with?

Also it will no longer be a choice, nanny mandates the nags are fitted with blinkers now.

I agree re being in charge of my car but at the end of the day when it rains on an autumn day and the wrong type of leaves are on the road you can be thankful when the V8 barks and the wheels just spin up with steering lock applied.

I'd just like to say that I am most definitely not in the "last real Mog was flat rad" category. I think I made it very clear that I'm totally behind MMC's modernisation.
I wouldn't buy an everyday car without all these "aids" and legislation wouldn't let me anyway. But I bought my Mog to have a different driving style, a change for fun.
That's all. I fully understand that things move on.

Just a technical thing though.ABS is a valuable safety feature because it allows you to steer not because it stops you more quickly. It's quite possible to beat abs stopping distances in a non abs car. The friction quotient is far higher with a locked tyre, so you stop in a shorter distance. Abs allows you to steer around the child, but you can do that by releasing the brake pedal. But for straight line stopping distance non abs wins.
Abs not good on leaves either.....

Nick

Abs is rubbish on mud and ice as well....

With ABS you can slow, steer and stop.
Without ABS you can stop in a straight line.

I had a session on the Mercedes World Stopping Straight. On both wet and dry I stopped in the shortest distance by braking jut to the point of ABS activation, but this was absolutely a "non panic" situation.
Panic braking on both surfaces, and trying to avoid a cone, ABS wins every time.

Except where the mud/ice is on one side / wheeltrack...

If you think that locked up tyres will stop you faster than rolling tyres on anything short of snow and gravel at relatively low speeds then you need to go out and practise! Maximum braking force is when the tyre is just on the point of locking up but definitely not locked up.
One of the less discussed joys of good ABS systems is that you can practise hard braking by increasing the pedal force till the ABS starts to kick in and then easing and re-applying the brake. Rather like cadence braking but with the ABS safety net.
While you can out brake an ABS equipped car on an even, consistent surface, the chances of managing it when the friction is different side to side - think puddle or some gravel on the road - are very low indeed. What ABS is brilliant for isn't maximum braking force, it's much more about maintaining control when a sudden panic brake is required. I'm quite happy to do without ABS in my three wheeler but am delighted to have it in pretty much everything else.

"What ABS is brilliant for isn't maximum braking force, it's much more about maintaining control when a sudden panic brake is required. I'm quite happy to do without ABS in my three wheeler but am delighted to have it in pretty much everything else."


Exactly... that's what I said I think.
Actually it depends on the road surface. Gravel builds up in front of a locked tyre and helps braking considerably, as does snow.
Braking hard to just before abs kicks in is the same efficiency as braking in a car without abs, one is braking to just before lockup. In other words, there is no way of stopping more quickly than properly applied brakes. Abs and cadence braking allow you to add steering that's all....I say, that's all, it's a pretty big advantage to be able to steer round the obstruction if there's room. But abs won't stop you quicker if there's nowhere to steer to.
If you think it will, you need to get out and try it!

Nick

As I think I hinted in my earlier mail (if I can remember that far back with any degree of accuracy) creating division seems less than ideal..?

I suspect there will be a variety of preferences that come together under the Morgan banner. Old codgers such as I and hopefully some younger folk with a whole different set of preferences and greatly appreciating the appearance of an old car but with at least some modern-day motoring advantages built in. In the case of what might be determined a non-trad Morgan may well fit the bill better for the young would be Morgan buyer yet still seem to be a bit old hat to some degree, if their pals are driving around in 500 HP machinery whose on road performance safety and stability may well require the inputs and outputs of it`s on board management systems.. Which when I come to think of it might be similar to my own group of sports car owning friends when I chose to buy a Morgan all those years ago in that I was most fortunate to have enjoyed a history of ownership and involvement with some quite impressive machinery, well machinery that impressed me..(-:

As For Morgan providing auto transmission in the new breed, that seems entirely logical given the exponential increase in traffic on the road today.. and not just in the London area. If I consider the traffic found today on the once deserted Roads up the West coast of Scotland or the traffic in Edinburgh, Glasgow and other cities, then it seems there must be many who may no longer enjoy having to ride a heavy clutch and coax a manual vehicle along a few yards at a time in traffic for mile after mile until a relatively free bit of tarmac is found, which indeed may be the reality for many in search of an escape from the norms of everyday life...? I consider myself blessed in not having to be involved in that kind of traffic situation should the need to sample a bit of vintage entertainment to find a bit of interesting Tarmac, however I fear that age is tapping my upon shoulder to make getting in and out of my old Mog just that bit more difficult..

If you have read any of my contributions you will hopefully understand that I have no wish for my old non digital Morgan to be other than it is and for my own good reasons, which may or may not suit YOU, but it sure suits ME. I even had ideas that I might modify it to make it appear MORE vintage in appearance by perhaps fitting an alloy engine turned dash in place of the original, in that regard how then could I criticise others for travelling in the opposite direction in the hope of modifying their suspension or anything else to more match their modern expectations...?

While travelling in Southern Europe I kinda set a max daily mileage of circa 300 miles, which as well as being near the limit of our duration in hot weather, also allowed for reasonable intervals for greasing of the front suspension, which truth be told is part of owning a machine based upon some vintage ideals which were found to be a tad inconvenient while touring, more so when I ran out of grease and the Mog started to steer like a boat.... Greasing being accepted as all just part of the vintage experience while at home though less so when far from home, at least I had a pair of overalls stowed in the spare wheel bracket..?

Had I the wherewithal at the time I bought my Morgan, my choice would have been a vintage LM Bentley, Bugatti or something very similar, but that was not to be, however in a very short time I became very happy with my old non-vintage Morgan, sure, the guys who own REAL vintage cars may be expected to determine my Mog is in their and my own eyes is not vintage enough in some aspects of it`s construction to be classified as vintage, that matters not a jot to me, it does however provide a measure of a vintage driving experience without the probable costs involved in the adventures we engaged in with our old +8 had it been a REAL vintage machine.

Another considered aspect of distant travels was that parts supply in the countries visited would be less of concern in my Morgan than a true vintage machine given it`s V8 and gearbox are of Land Rover manufacture and LR`s were sold in the countries that we intended to visit... Other than the possible advantage of spare parts availability, my non-vintage Morgan and it`s constituent parts were well understood as the result of my many years of hands on experience gained while repairing and restoring my own machines.... Had my choice of Morgan included some degree of digital programming then the more of it involved in any Morgan, the less opportunity I would have of being self sufficient, which is HIGH on my list of personal ideals and more so when travelling, these days much less so..... At the time of purchase of my Morgan I was no stranger to repairing a wide variety of leading edge digitally controlled equipment , just that was more than aware of it`s possible failings.... Given that I am no stranger to digital advantages, and indeed make use of many of them today, perhaps I should have identified myself as a selective Luddite... (-:

Today..? Well for me like many of us who have been around a while there are bound to have been ups and downs and as technology and accompanying regulation has evolved our datums have more than likely shifted to some degree... the idea of buying an ICE car as an investment or involving the man maths required to justify it`s existence on that basis seems nuts to me, thus those buying rather what seem to be rather expensive Morgans today, may not need to consider as I once did that if things get tight, at least I could turn it back into cash relatively easily..Hmm..?

My old Mog..? I suspect looking at advertised prices of those which have not had the benefit of a nut and bolt rebuild by a professional Morgan enthusiast and which may not have the benefit of hand crafted panes as opposed to Superform, the non-trade ADVERTISED prices of Morgans of circa 1986 are in excess of that which I paid for it circa 17 years ago... though £1 could buy a lot more in 2001 than it does today...hmm..? In truth the returns have exceed the amount invested in my old Mog, I hope the same applies to all Morgan owners if not right now, at some future time, so best to enjoy them while we are still allowed out on the road..?

JB 62 if you are reading this, that like the last one you posted is a GREAT image of your car..(-:

Graham in the very first ABS equipped sports car I drove I tested exactly that, with the two nearside wheels on the grass and the two off-side wheels on the Tarmac..... I was greatly impressed with ABS. Not much later, on a wide open dual carriageway with no traffic to be seen and while horsing along I came round a slow ish bend to find traffic at a standstill in both lanes..... boy did ABS impress me then too, I stopped long before I expected so to do... Technological advance indeed has many benefits though perhaps one needs to be careful not to become too dependant on it..?

I understand it well when one has further developed his own skills. Personally I will never be able to brake as effectively as a well programmed ABS can. I drove a lot of cars without ABS. But I am glad that my Elise is from 2007, the first year of construction with ABS. Especially if you consider such a light car with relatively wide tires (I drive Exige dimensions in front) you are lost in heavy rain without ABS.
If my 4/4 would be equipped with ABS and everything else would be the same, I would welcome it. Of course I can also drive the 4/4 without ABS. It lets me ride very concentrated and awake in the 4/4. I imagine riding a motorcycle in such a similar way which I never did.

Having seen first hand how airbags and other safety features have saved countless lives over my 30 year career in the Fire and Rescue Service, I would like to see airbags fitted on all Morgans.

+1

Fox terrier.. I suspect anyone who has witnessed the carnage of some vehicle accidents very much has the right to think what they will re the advantages of safety equipment... But then some rules and regulations relative to construction and use can be avoided by small volume manufacturers and perhaps fortunately so in some cases...? Fortunately today`s regs do not apply to my old Mog, or I would be deprived of the enjoyment it brings. I am very aware of my vulnerability when driving my Morgan as opposed to my wife`s modern 4x4.. If one is or becomes somewhat risk averse, then choosing Morgan may not be ideal..?

We do all need reminding that aesthetics are well down the order when it comes to human safety by someone that knows about these things, thanks for the reminder.

The ABS and EBD have saved me on more than one occasion on both our dailies, why fight the technology I love my Plus 8 for what it is but do drive very defensively in it as the knowledge that you are surrounded by cars with such aids mean you cannot compete with their capabilities no matter how fantastic a driver you think you may be.

Back "on thread" I think the Plus Six and CX chassis augers well for the future of MMC and imagine the new share holders will be pretty chuffed by the reception the model has received from every quarter so far.

I might even buy one myself if MMC get rid of that horrific gear lever and gear box. Currently the plus 6 with that gear lever is like a picture of the Mona Lisa holding an I phone. Totally incongruous


[/quote]

Brilliant Howard

Howard nearly wants to buy a Morgan!!! surprise!

Muddy fields, ice and snow - I’d rather no ABS. In fact I think the last Defenders had switchable ABS because JLR had come to the same conclusion?

In everyday driving , whatever the vehicle , I’m not a good enough driver not to want all the help I can get to safely swerve or stop to avoid hurting someone.

I am amazed how many of you drive your Morgans in mud and snow. Must be an English thing like driving with the top down in a downpour

Don`t mix up ABS with ESC.
Doing better than ESC when cornering is only possible if you have four brake pedals;-)

Saved many lives!

The new PlusSix really bugs me

It bugs me that I haven’t got the space nor the funds to get one

+1 Stewart

Nothing like a 'new mistress' eh!

I'm guessing 10% of us will have one in around 3 years time once the manual gearbox is in place and a decent sound coming out the rear as to me they are deal breakers

It will be interesting to see if they produce a 4 seater version on the CX platform .

Steve Morris told me, in a brief encounter a few weeks ago, that there was no manual box option available for that engine. So it may take some time.

+2

Popped into Williams today, sat in the new PlusSix. A couple of observations from me and verbal input from the Williams sales guy (nice chap!):

I am just over 6' tall and had to have the seat one notch forward - i.e. closer to the steering wheel. I believe you could therefore be 6'.3" or so before leg room becomes an issue?
I was surprised by the quality "feel" - the doors close - with a "thunk" that many VM's would like!
I did not feel as though the seat was too high?

Overall very impressed and cannot wait for a drive

The Williams employee stated, that their demonstrator cannot be sold, until their next car - arrives from Morgan (they are looking to order a Gun metal grey with mulberry interior - all "launch models are now allocated" - so normal colours can be placed).

Williams have sold 4 - PlusSix's only one to an existing Morgan customer the rest are "new to Morgan" owners.

I thought the last fact very interesting.......

Mark

Or an additional one!

Got to agee. I was converted to ABS when I bought my first BMW bike and the demonstrator told me to go out and brake hard on what was a wet greasy road. I managed to work up the courage to do so and to my surprise the front didnt fold under and I didnt end up on my backside.




Here I disagree. I dont see it as a safety aid except perhaps in a car like the Roadster which has IMO dangerously too much power for the chassis. In a well balanced cars a bit of wheelspin is no issue. In fact it can be useful in a FWD car.



Yes more and more cars will be autos. There is fun to be had in blipping down a flappy paddle box as you enter a roundabout at speed but the thing that always got me with the F type , and likely will apply to the Plus 6 with the same box, was that it had way too many gears for the paddles to be any fun. There never was a single right gear to be in. Much of the time you never knew what gear you were in.At 40 mph you effectively had a choice of 7 gears. Ridiculous.

Howard,

I agree 100% with your views on modern auto boxes.
The Plus 8 has a 6 speed box, but only uses 5: in normal Drive it starts in 2nd and gets to 6th as quickly as possible. In Sport it starts in 1st and doesn't use 6th.
Even 5 gears are 1 too many.

The AMG C43 has 8 or 9....I forget. I never know what gear it is in: its choice of gears is dependent on which of the 4 modes you have selected.
The trick is to use the rev counter. Keep below 2000 and the car is economical and easy to drive. From 2500 to 5000 it is quick and from 5000 to 6500 it is an animal. I'd suggest the same applies to the PlusSix.

Wow, abs must be great on a motorbike.
In a car though, which continues in a straight line once the wheels lock, there is no quicker (not necessarily safer) way to stop, in a straight line, than to lock the wheels.
Check out Roadcraft, the police driving handbook.If you, say, go round a corner to find the road completely blocked, locking up is your best chance of stopping.

I can't resist adding this rather controversial thing, which I have to fictionalise but is a truth I assure you.

In 1971 ish a young man was a front seat passenger in a Volvo 145 estate being driven by a member of the security services. The car was heavily loaded with hospital equipment. The vehicle was making extremely rapid progress through the Battersea district when it rounded a corner to find the road completely blocked just a few yards away. The driver then performed a manouvre which consisted of (more or less) spinning the steering wheel to the right and then slamming on the brakes. This positioned the car at 90 degrees across the road (effectively parallel with the obstruction) and we stopped absolutely dead. The car rocked but stopped instantly. The young man was in shock but the driver just grinned and said...."oh yes that's called the xxxxx stop". He then turned us fully round and set off again. Unfortunately no amount of memory raking can produce the missing word. But it's a taught manouvre.
Not one I'd care to try though, but does improve on normal stopping distances, that's for sure.

Great story Nick, however, I cannot see that the car would have stopped any quicker than normal? The same patch of tyre is in contact with the road regardless....just my thoughts?

Mark

This is a moot point, and is often the subject of much bar room debate, but the reality is that if your wheels lock under braking then you've lost control of what's happening. Newton's Law takes over and you continue in the direction you were travelling in, unless something changes that.

ABS is absolutely stunning in use. I had the opportunity to test HGV ABS technology on a test track at Lucas HQ back in the day, and steaming around on a wet & greasy surface in full control was awe inspiring.

Good to know it's there, wrapped up in your "Just in Case" box..

Motorcycle ABS is also many generations along now, too. My new Scrambler has cornering ABS built in, to (hopefully..) avoid those awkward panic moments when leant over on a poor surface.

As others have said, switch it all off when off-road. Still hurts when you fall off, but at least you're going slower..

I can be completely wrong but I understood the story in such a way that the brake performance may be was better, but by putting the car across more space was gained so that the stop could happen without impact.

Well I take my hat off to those with superhuman reactions who cadence brake when they are hurtling towards possible pain or worse, as opposed to those like me who might be inclined to try to bury the brake pedal through the bulkhead... Which causes me to wonder at fitting larger callipers with far more grab potential on the disc in a similar impending situation... they seem bound to lock the wheels up earlier with what effect on overall braking distance...hmm..??

As for throwing it sideways to stop quicker..!!! Saw a fire engine going side on in snow, until it hit a bit of dry Tarmac... You guessed it... the thing rolled...JEEZ... so perhaps best not tried in a Morgan..???

As I built My +8 out of old used Morgan Parts and a few odd bits I ended up with Lorne Goldman's '87 front Girlings and Chevy S10 rear drums which are significantly bigger than Morgans. On one of My first runs I almost rear ended Marge's Beautiful DHC that She had bought new in 1959. Not once but twice. When I got Home I described My peril with My Friend and Mentor. "I don't like those Girlings but the S10 drums are ok but We need to get this rig balanced out with better front Brakes". $1,000 and a bit of machining I was soon breaking in the Rotors and then the Pads. I now had Wilwood Brakes. Kind of the standard for aftermarket brake systems. I initially thought these Wilwood brakes would merely lock up. Not so, but the distance it took Me to stop was dramatically shortened. I had a XJ6 Jag sedan with Brakes with sensors so that if the wheel tried to skid it would not be allowed and the other 3 took up the slack. Anti skid or something. I liked this feature and would entertain this on My +8 if I could easily fit it.

Mark, the new owners of MMC will be pleased, if you look at the reality of us old crocks on here, most of us keep our Mogs too long, to survive MMC need new cars sold, and 'new to Morgan owners' is good news

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with that. Once the tyres start to skid you will take a longer distance to stop. The only exception is if you really know what you are doing and turn the car sideways as you mentioned below. If you don't know what you are doing you will probably roll the car because as the car starts to spin you will automatically back off the brakes, the skidding tyres will then bite and over you will go. This, by the way, is a clear example of the fact that tyres that are not locked up have more grip.


I saw someone do exactly that when a motorcycle went done in front of him.Without the skill and instant reaction of the driver the rider would have been seriously hurt or worse.

I had a similar experience when out with a trained ex-military person who was the chauffeur and bodyguard of a top insurance company managing director. The car was a Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow and he often brought it home if he was out late or an early start was required. Apparently there were some concerns about possible kidnapping at the time and he showed me just how quickly he could turn the car around for a getaway if the road was blocked. He checked to make sure no traffic was around and at about 50 or 60 kph locked up the wheels, spun the car around almost in its own length, and then accelerated away in the opposite direction. Something similar to a handbrake turn but perhaps quicker to put into action. Most impressive.

Interesting debate on both ABS and the Plus 6.

Regarding ABS my thoughts are having no ABS on a racetrack in the dry is much preferred, most systems will have a tolerance margin built in and will intervene to early and cost valuable time to a professional racing driver as well as pedal judder being very annoying. However this is at the pinnacle of motorsport and thus negates much of the real world viability, on a race track the speed is built up and drivers will hit their braking points lap after lap after lap.
In the real world ABS will pull up faster than any non-ABS car on the road in any conditions I believe 99% of the time, providing of course that the cars being compared are identical, have the same tyres, and the ABS system is modern and a good one (i.e. not one of the obstrusive ones you sometimes come across that activates far to early).

Let me explain why - in my experience as soon as you need the brakes on the road (lets assume dry and straight braking) you can hit them at 100% immediatly and use all of their power, with non-ABS you have to build the pressure to the point of maximum adhesion, and for most of us this will add a portion of time that the brakes are not being utilised 100% (this is why EBD exists alongside most modern ABS systems as most people do not hit the pedal hard enough to use the brakes fully). This delay will add significant stopping distance to any test with a non-ABS car.

The caveat to this is of course a professional driver who can apply non-ABS brakes to their maximum ability in a split second on a track as mentioned earlier, but even a professional will struggle to do this outside of a track environment, where the surface varies, is not constant and not-repeatable (as in lap by lap building speed and confidence). Thusly in the real world ABS will stop you faster, in pretty much any situation.


Over to the Plus 6 and I believe it is a good thing for Morgan, "change or die" is a famour phrase uttered more than once before and it is very true, me personally I don't have any interest in one from an ownership perspective - but plenty of people do and that is a fantastic thing, as it means Morgan can continue building other cars I do want such as the 3 Wheeler. With regards to the Trads legislation might well put them to bed one day, but as long as they are profitable and legal I am sure Morgan will continue to make them to cater for a wider audience.
Either way I think the new chassis down the line will give rise to a smaller engined, cheaper manual version - and that will be fantastic.

A lot of good points being made here (joining the thread rather late, I haven't read all 8 pages) however I agree with some and not others.
From my perspective and only having sat in one, it gives me the impression of being the best quality of Morgan made to date; time will tell.

Is it too much of a departure from the 'trad'? Dunno. But when should a car manufacturer stop seeking improvements? It is a fine balance between maintaining the 'house' style and making cars that will sell new, meet changing regulations and the changing demographic of the potential buyers.

From my perspective all new Morgans today are ridiculously over priced.for what they are, but as cars are 10% value and 90% emotion hey ho!

I've been trying to remember as accurately as possible what the driver told me about stopping. I think it was this (and I'm making no claims to have the skill to do this remember, I was just a passive witness...and I was also amazed the car didn't roll over):
I think he said that he flipped the steering and pulled up the handbrake at the same time, then when the car was sideways he stamped on the brakes. The reason this works (!!) Was that stopping involves losing momentum. Some of the momentum was lost in turning the car. Further, when we lock up our brakes we very rarely lock up all four wheels, normally just the front. As the loss of momentum is at it's most efficient when the tyres are locked, if only the front are then around half of max efficiency occurs. By having the handbrake on first he'd locked all four wheels. We stopped absolutely dead. There was no skidding at all. Happily for me I've never seen it again!

On cadence, when I was taught it, brakes were nothing like as good as they are today. And the speed of applying/releasing was nothing like the abs rate. Basically it was taught to me that I should brake as hard as possible to lock the wheels.At the point of lock I no longer have access to steering. Therefore, if I need to steer to avoid an obstacle I should release the brake at which point I regain steering. Steer until I can again brake to travel in a straight line. It wasn't necessarily a fast motion more a sharing of steering and braking alternately, a regular pumping. It isn't fair to say that when the wheels are locked the driver has lost control in this circumstance as the driver has complete control, he either slides straight with brakes on or steers by reducing braking.( Unlike say on ice where the skid does involve loss of control.)

That was all many years ago and obviously in today's world I'm happy to rely on abs but surely I'm not the only person to have slammed on in an abs car and thought Hell why am I not stopping!
Nick

Interesting 'thread drift'...!

ABS... I had this on my Lotus Exige S2 Supercharged cars and also on my Lotus Evora.

Even on track days, I never felt the ABS coming on... or saw it, courtesy of the little ABS light that came on when the ABS was activated. I knew where the limit of the tyres was by experience and feel... not relying on 'stamp on the brake pedal' and hope for the best! Sure... the wheels won't lock. But if you do this in mid corner on a wet road, even ESC differential braking will not be able to compensate for weight transfer and hence un-loaded tyre/road interface. At least with no electronic intervention, you can feel that happening!

I learnt to drive on a 1962 Mini 850! No ABS! No TC (43 bhp!!). No synchromesh either! You learnt from such a car how to drive to the limits of tyre adhesion, cornering, braking. Obviously not accelerating! So I always felt, translated to 'modern' electric cars, that I had an 'advantage'... in being able to 'feel' the interaction and adhesion limits of the tyres... and as such, learnt to drive accordingly, with many 'lessons' in 'get out' options! Cadence braking, steering, weight transfer to get the chassis to move about to assist faster and safer driving!

Young drivers of today have never had this. Sad really. Because, even with all the electronic trickery in modern cars, physics is physics. Friction, velocity. They still exist!

Plus Six. Great it at least has ABS. Still find it hard to understand why they were not able to 'pinch' or translate the BMW 140i powertrain, with TC and ESC etc, into the Morgan. It was obviously an expensive R and D exercise to do so. I juts hope the Plus Six does not end up us a 2019 vision of the 1980's TVR's.

All good stuff. Time will tell a great story here, especially if we re-read this thread in a few years time...

Love my underpowered, skinny tyred lightweight trad 4/4!

There could be two views on that.
1. Is the ancient engineering and lack of modern safety equipment on a Morgan suitable for a car costing >£45k
2. How many other companies provide a largely handmade/assembled product on that scale for £45k ? I remember watching one of the old Morgan youtube videos with Charles talking about a well known shotgun company provide a pair of guns for the same money, What does £45k get you in the BMW three series range these days. Money is no longer worth what it used to be.

I don't disagree that they are a fair chunk of change but perspective and man maths are wonderful capabilities.

One of the reasons, probably the main reason, why just stamping on the brakes does not work is that if you lock the front wheels immediately you do not get the weight transfer to the front. The reason why disk brakes are used at the front of cars (or more powerful brakes in the case of all disk cars) is that the front tyres and brakes give the main stopping forces. This is because in correct braking a very high proportion of the weight of the car is transferred to the front wheels. You see this more clearly with a motorbike when the front of the bike dips under braking.

The correct braking procedure is to increase pressure on the brakes in a controlled way so that the weight of the vehicle transferred to the front places more downward force on the front tyres thereby increasing grip due to a combination of the forces and the increased contact patch. As the weight transfer takes place you can increase the force on the pedal until the moment that the tyres are almost losing grip. At this point you need to adjust pressure to keep it at that point.

I don't do it as often as I should but I highly recommend that those without ABS should practice this on a quiet road from time to time. If you do this often enough in an imagined emergency stop your brain will automatically take over in a real emergency and you will have a much better chance of minimising or avoiding the accident.

This has been previously covered on the forum but the video below shows that the wheels were well and truly locked up before impact.

ABS also has the important job of keeping the rear wheels from locking.
Locking these will make the car rotate around it's centre of mass, and once again, you're out of control.

Do you think that Mog would have stopped if it had abs fitted?

Given the difference between life and death can be millimeters or milliseconds I suspect any improvement in braking can make a difference and in some cases a HUGE difference it would seem. In the case of the vid, who knows how much quicker the poor chap might have come to a standstill given the car he hit was part of the distance involved in bringing the Morgan to a stop...? Given the opportunity to have abs or not in heading towards such a situation which would you choose..?

Agree Jon, the Sales guy also made the same point, conquest customers are good for Morgan.

I like ABS and am sure it has saved me a few times from stupid Kangaroos on roads with a bit of snow or ice. Seeing we hardly ever get ice of snow here when we do it is scary and unexpected. All my cars are non ABS, but all my wife's have had ABS and they certainly stop better in an emergency. Given the choice I would take it but would I buy a Mazda MX5 instead of a Morgan Plus 4 just because it has ABS? Probably not but the fact the +4 is 3 times the cost with no safety features at all certainly makes it a hard sell to the household finance controller who sees both as just another 2 seat uncomfortable convertible toy like every other car her husband has owned.

I hate automatic gearboxes but a CX chassis with a smaller engine and manual gearbox could be something I would really like.

Does the Plus 6 body use wheel arches formed in this?



If so does that help it keep the tradition and therefore make it a real Morgan? Also does the jig then become a bottle neck that will limit the number of CX and Trad Morgans that can be made in total?

I think yes
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o4r471nfh6aa5x9/IMG_5944.jpg?dl=0

With or without, that driver could not stop in that distance.He woke up too late.
My point is that there's a belief abs reduces stopping distances which it doesn't. It enables steering which is it's great safety benefit. There is no manufacturer who claims abs reduces stopping distances. On the contrary, it is freely admitted that on a less than perfect surface abs can considerably increase stopping distances. Which is why you can turn it off in off road vehicles.
So the presentation of that video as some sort of endorsement of abs encourages the dangerous belief that abs will help us out in situations such as the one on the video.
What I'm claiming is easily confirmed by any investigation, even on wikipedia!
Anyway, I'm going to stop going on about it now
Nick

Re the jig, it would be very simple to produce more jigs like the originals, or indeed a modern hydraulic alternative to speed up production. I'm sure MMC only keep them in public view because it upholds the tradition and is a fantastic public relations tool. They could "hide" the new ones through the back where the visitors wouldn't see them.

ABS is an automated system that uses the principles of threshold braking and cadence braking, techniques which were once practised by skillful drivers before ABSes were widespread. ABS operates at a much faster rate and more effectively than most drivers could manage. Although ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and some slippery surfaces, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces ABS may significantly increase braking distance, while still improving steering control.[2][3][4] Since ABS was introduced in production vehicles, such systems have become increasingly sophisticated and effective. Modern versions may not only prevent wheel lock under braking, but may also alter the front-to-rear brake bias. This latter function, depending on its specific capabilities and implementation, is known variously as electronic brakeforce distribution, traction control system, emergency brake assist, or electronic stability control (ESC).

I remember when the Interceptor fitted Dunlop Maxaret system on the FF which was taken from the system designed for aircraft....

Do you suppose it was this contentious when the factory added a fourth wheel? "Bah! It's not a real Morgan if it has more than three wheels... isn't driven by a chain... has reverse..."

I would and will try to grab a a full hand brake (not easy in a trad ) as well as a foot brake in an emergency as this is more likely to give you four wheel braking. Watch the rally boys they constantly use the handbrake to slow and control the car.

If the pedal doesn't give you four wheel braking then there's something wrong with the system. Using the handbrake in tandem with the hydraulic system in a Morgan won't force the shoes against the rear drums any harder.

Guys, Guys, Guys... Settled down, Holding on to fundamentalist ideals has caused enough trouble in the world, perpetuated by continuous argument for and against whatever...???

My old 1985 Morgan is a fantastic bit of kit to provide a somewhat vintage enough driving experience for ME, given it`s coach built bodywork, suspension design (other than tubular shockers) and build quality are decidedly vintage, however it`s running gear most definitely is NOT, with it`s V8 Engine 5 synchromesh gears, LSD, disc braking system operated by hydraulics and up to the minute radial tyre technology....Electrics by way of alternator, improved battery technology, headlights, indicators.....Best not forget seat belts..? With the benefit of all that technological advance in my Morgan... I think the true vintage guys can rightly thumb their noses at me... (-:

As I have typed elsewhere and perhaps too often, my old +8 is the closest I can get to a vintage driving experience with the sort of performance levels that I PERSONALLY desire, to that end I consider myself most fortunate to have found it in my Morgan.

As for those who need to be Faithful... I ain`t one of them, I come here to discuss, not argue or declare myself an expert on ANYTHING.

The CX format would seem to be a necessary stage in the evolution of Morgan. I remember well JHJ trying to convince Peter that they had to re-jig to take advantage of their wonderful heritage and Peter being somewhat resistant, Charles perhaps less so, when I think of the Superform wings...?

The 4/4 in the Scottish dealership mentioned as perhaps being one of the last available, would seem to have the captured the concept of what an ideal Morgan might be to a more up to date level of more ..err..mature customer desires, with all the toys that attracted my eye... (-:

Today`s more youthful Morgan buyer is likely to hold a whole different set of priorities relative to his/her influences, though I suspect that their EXPECTATIONS may differ greatly from mine. I also suspect they may be a tad less forgiving of the foibles that were perhaps built in to older Morgans or that which occurred in time as the Mog aged.. All the ..lawyers for you... adverts on TV seem to increase the expectations of everything for the young, and self reliance seems to have diminished accordingly..?

While I have a measure of technical ability, my Morgan still displays it`s occasional foible, which also reflects the passage of time in terms of the foibles it has presented on occasion, but then given I wanted a somewhat vintage experience I have little room for complaint... (-: And as far as foibles may affect my old car, I am truly grateful for another aspect of modernity that was unavailable when I swapped toy soldiers for a set of spanners, the interweb.. which is greatly advanced my ability to keep my Mog running given the access to folk on forums and web sites the likes of GoMoG and others to provide almost instant assistance on occasion..(-:

BRAKES..? You have to make your own decisions there... If you think you are not the type to ever look for a way round of a dangerous/emergency situation right right up to the moment of impact, and may be more inclined to try to force the brake pedal through the bulkhead...hmm...? While in that situation have you truly assessed all that might affect your braking over the possible changes in the surface your tyres are and will travel over in the distance available..? I suspect that on.. average.. most folk could do with all the help they can get...?

I wonder if the... average... serious road accident might have been assessed given the police take measurements and have the ability to utilise data in many and varied ways.. hmm...? Perhaps the road transport research laboratory and other technical bodies have got together and decided that on ..average...cars may be safer with ABS installed...I know not..!

Seem to remember there was resistance to fitting and wearing seat belts when they were promoted on the grounds of increasing safety.... Can any of you remember any of the arguments against them, and from a very dull memory I think there there were quite a few from the ridiculous to the reasonable.. We humans are ever arguing, be it climate change, Brexit or what is a trad or non-trad or even what constitutes a REAL Morgan..?

As for grabbing the handbrake to further assist your attempts at stopping... Unless you are using it skilfully to assist in a rapid change in direction, I suspect that the continuous pressure you have already applied to the footbrake will negate any effect of pulling on the lever, and it may just be possible that concentrating on whatever steering you have available may be a better option or at least using your hands arms to brace yourself, having hands and arms flailing about seems less than ideal in the case of an unfortunate collision..?

Just thinking in type as ever and happy to discuss..

i wanted to like the Six. i find my bedstead a little tiresome (i'm not yet 60, too young you see!).
However, i find proportions unattractive (just like the BMW Plus 8) and it's too wide to fully enjoy down b roads (as are so many other modern cars).

CX is the future. the trad market is literally dying away.
Rather than jumping to full EV (a realistic possibility) i hope they can slot in a 48V hybrid system with a characterful 3 cyl motor to enjoy out of town.
150hp and loads of torque.

Has the new Plus Six got drums then ?

Never thought of that Alistair... does the Plus Six use a set of handbrake pads as per the old Jags or Lotus Elan...??? even so if the foot brake has managed to lock the rear wheels, then I suspect trying to pull on the handbrake would impart no benefit...?

But wait... has it incorporated an electrically operated handbrake.... oh, Jeez, best not go there..?

God forbid...there is the dame lever on the transmission tunnel as is used on all Aeros, but only one calliper on the rear discs. The Aeros have 2, one just for the handbrake.
So I presume that MMC has gone all modern and the handbrake operates a cam on one of the pistons. Or something.

When the ethos of a company, if you like its USP, is to keep selling cars from the 1930s. Sure Merc should continue to improve, assuming for a moment that their latest cars are an improvement, but it has to be questioned for MMC as can be seen from the posts so far.

Most manufacturers make bigger cars year on year.

Just look at early Fiestas......

Look at a Granada compared to modern blobs.

I like small cars. No interest in lardy cars from anybody. Even my Mk6 Golf feels lardy and its a small car by todays standards.

A todays Polo is quite larger than a Golf 1 or 2.

I would have thought pressuring the existing hydraulics would have been the easiest. Probably a simpler possibility with electric handbrake although the Plus 6 is manual. Our BMW Mini seems to work in this fashion, as when electric handbrake is applied you can feel the pressurisation through the footbrake pedal. Appears to work on all four wheels as well given the way the car halts when just trickling forward.

. Most production road cars are set up with a front bias to stop the the rears breaklng before the fronts when the brakes are applied while cornering. This allows a bit of slack which the handbrake can take up in a straight line.

Richard, while the ease of use of the electric handbrake auto release with fractional timed hold on hill starts and push button start automatically engages park in auto gearbox applications..... ALL and more seems to lure those of us who learned to drive when perhaps a bit more brain and mechanical input were required, into a false sense of security at times when it really is necessary to keep the brain in gear.

Apparently the numbers are not few of folk injured and maimed in car parks or outside their homes having being run over by their own cars since all this FOOL proof stuff was built into vehicle systems...?

Forgot to add

I think it is possible that when the handbrake is applied it may push the shoes away from the rear wheel cylinders to some extent, and that could be why you feel the pedal move while your foot is on it and applying the brake as the pistons then extend with no resistance against them as the auto handbrake mechanism is doing the job of extending the shoes till they make contact with the disc/drums...? Dunno for sure..?

Yes on the ML you can feel the pedal drop/raise when the electronic parking brake is applied, removed.

We all know the rule. Every time I make it more fool-proof they seem to find a better fool. More bleach for the gene pool please.

With or without, that driver could not stop in that distance.He woke up too late.
My point is that there's a belief abs reduces stopping distances which it doesn't. It enables steering which is it's great safety benefit. There is no manufacturer who claims abs reduces stopping distances. On the contrary, it is freely admitted that on a less than perfect surface abs can considerably increase stopping distances. Which is why you can turn it off in off road vehicles.
So the presentation of that video as some sort of endorsement of abs encourages the dangerous belief that abs will help us out in situations such as the one on the video.
What I'm claiming is easily confirmed by any investigation, even on wikipedia!
Anyway, I'm going to stop going on about it now
Nick[/quote
I strongly disagree. Being a norwegian citizen and having had my license since 1968, I have considerable experience driving car with and without ABS, on snow, ice, slush and the worst of all - wet ice. ABS prevents locking the road wheels. As long as your wheels are rotating while braking, you have some sort of control, the moment you lock them you have none. When I took my drivers education in the pre-ABS era, I was told to "pulse-brake" in emergency situations, never slam the brakes. Pulse-braking was pressing the pedal just until the wheels locked, then lifting your foot so the wheels unlocked, press - lift - press - lift etc. Just what the ABS does. If you pulse-brake or brake super gently you might avoid activation of the ABS, but if you need harsh or panic braking, ABS is very important. If somebody wants to challenge me, I will be glad to participate. Let us find a little downhill slope with wet ice, go down with some speed and panic brake at the bottom. Two equal cars, one with ABS deactivated and the other (which I clearly will prefer to drive....) with ABS, then measuring the stopping distances. I will gladly donate my Morgan to the winner.

Based on the 100 metre long straight skid marks on the road before the impact with the street light when my son crashed my car soon after he got his licence I think ABS might have saved it from the accident.

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly62FoZH_Dc shows 4 stops,

1, ABS
2, No ABS Panic braking at same speed takes longer
3, ABS at slower speed
4, Threshold braking at the same speed as 3 take less distance than 3.

So yes confirms with Nick that yes you can stop quicker without ABS if you use threshold braking, but why did the guy demonstrate it at a slower speed? My view is probably because the higher the speed the harder it is to do threshold braking so he wanted less risk.

On a driver training course with a skid pan run for newly licensed drivers we had to change lanes between two rows on cones and then come to an emergency stop, the instructor said no way will the old RWD non ABS convertible do it but some how I did it and my son and no-one else did even though they were in modern FWD cars with ABS and probably other stability control. But I bet the only car badly damaged soon after was the old RWD non ABS convertible driven by a then over confident 17 year old

I used to race Mountain bikes on pretty hairy tracks and still ride a lot, I think on the bike I have pretty good skill at threshold braking either front or rear brake individually or both together depending on what I am doing, or just feathering the rear brake gently to get the bike to track a steep sharp corner much tighter, but like the skid pan I am prepared for danger and ready for it. In a car on the street the dangers come fro many direction and the speeds are faster and I am sure even after years of practicing threshold or pulse braking I would panic brake just like the second stop in the video.

I agree that poor Plus 4 was doomed because the driver reacted much too late regardless of the brakes, I also agree in a controlled situation it is possible to stop quicker, but unlike Nick I would chose the ABS equipped car any time if it was an option.

Sorry to read of your sons accident, I trust he learned something all be it at a rather high cost... I quite fancied myself as a m/cycle rider and car driver at onetime, but the aging process is just bound to have a measure of reduction in ability..and there are definite advantages to modern driver aides for old duffers like me, though as ever it seems there can be disadvantages too...hmm..?

When I was 16, I thought my dad a fool, by the time I was 21, I was amazed by how much HE had learned in five years..

I still think this is the best illustration.