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Roadster toe in #595866
19/09/19 09:55 PM
19/09/19 09:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,985
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Richard Wood Online NoMood OP
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Richard Wood  Online NoMood OP
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,985
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Following fitting the new SSL coil spring/damper units for the factory 5 link rear, turn in has noticeably improved, Fitting their RS front kit has increased the turn in still further. You can almost think the car round corners now, but am concerned although very chuckable, the steering may now be too sensitive and light. Dan White at SSL noticed this improved turn in after fitting the rears and suggested I had the toe in checked.

Now the handbook quotes 0 - 3.2mm, the latter equating to a tad under 0.5° toe in angle with my 16" wheels. I understand though that turn in is improved by toe out, so wonder if my car as been set up with this ex factory, only revealed with suspension improvements. Anyone noticed similar?


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Richard Wood] #595873
19/09/19 11:37 PM
19/09/19 11:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,874
Seattle, USA
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Button Offline
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Seattle, USA
I have never heard good things about "toe out" and My experience tells me this is a NO NO. However Neutral or slight Toe In is OK. -3.2 MM seems to me to be a bit excessive. This relates to My +8 Bitsa with standard suspension. No idea why SSL coil/damper and RS front kits would be different.


Button
Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Button] #595886
20/09/19 06:58 AM
20/09/19 06:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,985
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Richard Wood Online NoMood OP
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Richard Wood  Online NoMood OP
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,985
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted by Button
I have never heard good things about "toe out" and My experience tells me this is a NO NO. However Neutral or slight Toe In is OK. -3.2 MM seems to me to be a bit excessive. This relates to My +8 Bitsa with standard suspension. No idea why SSL coil/damper and RS front kits would be different.


I agree that toe out is not a good thing for road cars, just offering it as a possibility for the oversensitive steering. I think the change has come about due to increased roll resistance provided by the new suspensions. I assume the 0 - 3.2mm toe in clearly stated in MMC handbook for all the current Classic range is a total figure between the two wheels. If so this equates to less than 0.25° on each wheel as a max.

Need to find a local garage that can check.

Last edited by Richard Wood; 20/09/19 07:26 AM.

Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Richard Wood] #595897
20/09/19 08:28 AM
20/09/19 08:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,804
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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DaveW  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,804
South Yorkshire
SSL are the experts on this. My experience is that toe out causes twitchiness. But the wheel alignment and track rod angles do interact on turn in, so for example, if the track rod length shortens on bump on the outside wheel, it will sharpen turn in.


DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4
Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Richard Wood] #595899
20/09/19 08:30 AM
20/09/19 08:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 287
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Posts: 287
Richard, I am with Mr Button... I note you are a m/cyclist, or at least own a motorcycle, you may well know the effects of a tyre change from race spec to road spec tyres on a two wheeled machine... in that with race spec rubber, all that is needed is to "think" your way round the corner hitting the apex with pin sharp precision.... However that also equated to having to think your exact positioning the whole way round the corner, the bike prepared to change it`s angle of attack on any and every inch of Tarmac passedunder it`s tyres... GREAT for racing but for road work a machine like that can be very tiring requiring 100% concentration for 100% of the time..!

A change to road tyres and the bike seemed to know it`s way round the corners a slight body weight shift in the saddle or just above one`s waist height, and the bike would lined up and follow a steady course once set, all very relaxing by comparison to race tyre profiles... well as much as it is wise to ever relax while riding a m/cycle, but hopefully you get my drift..?

Changed tyres...nothing else.

Now my old 85 +8 has four wheels on the road, most of the time..(-: However I did swap the tyres round once, and the old thing felt immediately different as if the tyres had worn slightly to suit their position on the Mog but by swapping them round seems I created a different feel in that I had changed their position, it did not last long, either I got used to it or the tyres did...(-:

I suspect for those with Z chassis Trads the alignment of wheels front to back may vary to some degree from Mog to Mog even when brand new..? While you may be able to have it laser aligned on a jig, but I suspect the old thing will twist it`s self in many ways to suit any of the many forces placed upon it as you climb a rather steep section of road steering into a very tight Z bend ahead perhaps even some loose gravel and a pot hole or two thrown in.... Yup, a whole lot of variables and I suspect there would be a lot of creaking and groaning to be heard as everything twists and rattles... Dont believe me...? (-: Just park up on such a section of road and try opening the doors... perhaps one will be a tad tight and the other far less so... (-:

Before any kind soul jumps in to tell me my chassis or frame are suspect, the door opening test was carried out on a then recently totally rebuilt Morgan.. Perhaps the DPC was a mill or so to thick or the torque on the frame to chassis screws was not correctly set....IT`S A MORGAN for goodness sake..!!! (-:

Yeah, rambled well off line, apologies... I can`t help it having read of engineering perfection being incorporated in what are/were vintage underpinnings...

Toe in... Set mine at 1/8th inch since fitting a replacement steering rack and track rod ends,the tyres are showing no signs of stress so far circa 300miles, the steering feels just fine.

I suspect toe out would tend to give the feeling of bump steer which can be very uncomfortable in terms of accurate road positioning on an uneven surface...

Just thinking in type claiming ZERO expertise.

Re: Roadster toe in [Re: DaveW] #595902
20/09/19 08:47 AM
20/09/19 08:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,985
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Richard Wood Online NoMood OP
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
Richard Wood  Online NoMood OP
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,985
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted by DaveW
SSL are the experts on this. My experience is that toe out causes twitchiness. But the wheel alignment and track rod angles do interact on turn in, so for example, if the track rod length shortens on bump on the outside wheel, it will sharpen turn in.


Thanks Dave. The basis for my comments on oversensitive steering were found here. Dan White from SSL didn't specifically say my car had toe out but did confirm after a spirited test drive, that wheel toe needed checking. Can anyone recommend a home spun method?

Thanks also Luddite. 1/8 inch is near enough 3mm so that ties in with factory recommendation.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Richard Wood] #595904
20/09/19 08:52 AM
20/09/19 08:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,104
Dorset, UK
milligoon Offline
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milligoon  Offline
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Dorset, UK
Had a weird experience in my smart Roadster.

I noticed my car was turning quicker than normal, hands off ran straight as a die, but the turning increase peaked my curiosity. So I took it for a laser alignment.

Turned out some how I had considerable almost equal toe out, luckily I spotted it as I'd recently replaced my tyres and if I had left it, I would have scrubbed out the front tyres prematurely, after sorting it my economy improved by a few mpg too!


Mark - No Longer driving
Archie the Old English Sheep Mog...........
2010 Roadster 3.0 V6 (S3) wink
Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Richard Wood] #595910
20/09/19 10:09 AM
20/09/19 10:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 287
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Richard. home spun may take up a lot of fiddle time to still end up WRONG... Quick Fit or others should have kit to enable the task to be carried out quickly and cheaply , though perhaps wise to check cost prior to booking..?

Me..? I used an old set of Dunlop tracking gauges that I owned for years and used perhaps half a dozen times over the time I owned them, thus buying equipment to measure track might be less than worthwhile. I do remember there were relatively cheap plastic plates which were centrally riveted together the top plate having degree measurements and the bottom plate having an indicator.

The idea being that a pair of those devices were placed directly in front of the wheels with the degree measurement indicating zero... the car then pushed forward over the devices then once clear of the front wheels a read out could be taken from the scale....

I have no idea if such devices are still on the market, though I suspect that is about as home spun as you can get other than messing about with very tight string trying to measure things up a tad..?

Good luck in your choices.

Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Richard Wood] #595911
20/09/19 10:36 AM
20/09/19 10:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,804
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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Posts: 17,804
South Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Richard Wood
Originally Posted by DaveW
SSL are the experts on this. My experience is that toe out causes twitchiness. But the wheel alignment and track rod angles do interact on turn in, so for example, if the track rod length shortens on bump on the outside wheel, it will sharpen turn in.


Thanks Dave. The basis for my comments on oversensitive steering were found here. Dan White from SSL didn't specifically say my car had toe out but did confirm after a spirited test drive, that wheel toe needed checking. Can anyone recommend a home spun method?

Thanks also Luddite. 1/8 inch is near enough 3mm so that ties in with factory recommendation.


My homespun method has been in use for ...... well, probably over 40 years. It's a simple wooden frame, maybe 3/4" x 1&1/4"....dimensions don't matter. Wide enough to go under the car and with two uprights, also in wood, which I drilled for 10" to 14" diameter rims when that's all there was. Into the hole on one side goes a big nail. The nail is rested against the rim on one side and I measure the gap on the other side, First at 3 o'clock and then at 9 o'clock. This method has worked for me so well that I never use garages for tracking the front wheels. Obviously modern rear wheel alignment is different!

Oh yes and I work to 1/16"-1/8" toe in.


DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4
Re: Roadster toe in [Re: Richard Wood] #595913
20/09/19 10:46 AM
20/09/19 10:46 AM
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Posts: 287
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DaveW… How very Morganesque….. WONDERFUL.. thumbs

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