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Structural Failures #600299
21/10/19 04:18 PM
21/10/19 04:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 11,761
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 11,761
Salisbury, UK
I took Tarka in to Williams Morgan today for the annual service and some other, suspension related work"

1. New front uprights, only £600 or so easy, plus VAT - better than the original quoted price of £900 VAT each.
2. New front coil over units from SSL
3. New rear coil over units from SSL.

To fit the front suspension parts the front cowl, bonnet and both wings have to come off: I hung about and watched Stewart start to take things off.
This was the first surprise:

[Linked Image]
It is the alloy bracket that holds the front of the bonnet hinge to the bulkhead. The downward sloping upper part shouldn't be there.it should continue up to a flat plate that picks up the front of the bonnet. ...
It has snapped clean off.

The we found this:
[Linked Image]

The plates that are bonded to the inside of the front wing and which then hold the bottom edge of the wing to the chassis had failed: they had separated away from the bonding material, two on each wing and on both sides.
So the wings were not secured at the front in any meaningful way.

Tarka was built in the summer of 2013 and has run some 41,500 miles. The metal to metal adhesive has failed. The question is what was the root cause? Did the fractured upper bracket cause the adhesive to fail, or the reverse.
It is all fixable, but the failure of the adhesive is a bit of a worry, given the car is essentially glued together.....

It will be interesting to see what else comes to light!


Peter,
Tarka the 'Otter Mog
2014 Plus 8


Re: Structural Failures [Re: Peter J] #600305
21/10/19 04:40 PM
21/10/19 04:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,722
Co Wexford, Ireland
Robbie Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
Robbie  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,722
Co Wexford, Ireland
Sorry to see your woes, Peter. However, just as well they have been found as not fixing them could have made matters much worse. The thought of the bonnets flying up at the front and the following accident is ahorrible thought. No doubt the Williams boys will soon have Tarka back in fine fettle!


Robbie
2018 Plus4 - The Black Pearl
181-WX-3082

"Fettlebodge"-- chief of the PaddyMogs
Re: Structural Failures [Re: Peter J] #600308
21/10/19 05:50 PM
21/10/19 05:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,309
Newcastle Upon Tyne
James B W Offline
Has a lot to Say!
James B W  Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,309
Newcastle Upon Tyne
quite surprised at the first bracket 'fail' Peter and ,like you I would be concerned as to the cause and possible future issues.It looks to be fairly heavy duty already confused2

In regard to the lower wing ,bonded plates - I have had this on my Aero, several times now sadly doh

Mark (Middleton) who does the servicing always checks them as they seem to be a regular problem.He generally uses 'Araldite' or similar to re-bond any that have come loose.

I made up a new top bracket for the N/S headlamp unit ( as the N/S unit does not have one as standard?) , which I had to bond to the underside of the wing.

After much head scratching I decided on JB-Weld / Marine Weld (which is the waterproof version).

Touch wood, it seems to have held up.......

James


Aero8 , Series 1 - Boston Green
Range Rover Evoque
Smart Brabus Convertible
Re: Structural Failures [Re: Peter J] #600324
21/10/19 07:19 PM
21/10/19 07:19 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 6,412
Llanelli
sospan Offline
Talk Morgan Sage
sospan  Offline
Talk Morgan Sage

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 6,412
Llanelli
The adhesive that SHOULD be used in the initial bonding during chassis build is not ordinary stuff. It is a stronger and more expensive adhesive than general off the shelf stuff. Typical variants are used in aerospace builds so you can imagine the requirements for the whole prep/application/curing process. Remember the Spaceshuttle tiles...
Your move to JB weld is better than ordinary Araldite though.
I have an aluminium rad and the top steadying bracket failed. It was welded to the top tank and the weld cracked and eventually fully failed. No leaks. The cause was a mis-alignment of the bracket to it’s mounting point on the cross brace bar, resulting in side strain putting stress into the weld. I used JB Weld to stick it back after thorough cleaning/prep plus elongated the mounting hole to re-align the fixing.but it started to separate again, obviously still causing a pull and vibration combination. I did look for the better adhesives but saw the ££££ ! I then made a replacement bracket to fit over the tank with padding to replace the original. This new one is not fixed to the rad but bends over the top and so no undue stress/strain imparted. It steadies the rad well.
Out of curiosity, do the dealers have these “super adhesives” available to do repairs?


Red Plus8
Re: Structural Failures [Re: Peter J] #600327
21/10/19 07:31 PM
21/10/19 07:31 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 6,412
Llanelli
sospan Offline
Talk Morgan Sage
sospan  Offline
Talk Morgan Sage

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 6,412
Llanelli
PeterJ....looking closer at your pic of the broken bracket there seems to be some weld spatter on the top and the inner wing?
Has someone tried welding the bracket after early signs of impending failure/cracks? If so then has the metal been affected by heat?
The hole at the top of the bracket looks odd too. Possibly a crack initiated there and subsequently grew due to stresses. The fracture surface looks odd with a “line” running along it suggesting crack propagation and then sudden fracture. Two separate surfaces either side of the “line”.


Red Plus8
Re: Structural Failures [Re: Peter J] #600344
21/10/19 09:07 PM
21/10/19 09:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,009
Mandello del Lario, Lake Como,...
Gambalunga Offline
Member of the Inner Circle
Gambalunga  Offline
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,009
Mandello del Lario, Lake Como,...
I would not be too worried about the tub itself Peter. The ancillary parts are no doubt bonded on at the factory under less than ideal conditions whereas the tub is bonded together under much more controlled conditions and, if I recall correctly, baked in a hot chamber to cure the adhesive. It works for aircraft so it should be fine on Tarka smile


Peter

[Linked Image]
Re: Structural Failures [Re: Peter J] #600348
21/10/19 09:22 PM
21/10/19 09:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,389
Northamptonshire UK
Stringers Best Mate Offline
Talk Morgan Sage
Stringers Best Mate  Offline
Talk Morgan Sage

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,389
Northamptonshire UK
I'm a bit shocked and surprised to read this, Peter.

I know Williams will sort you, but keep us in the loop if you can, please..


Steve
Re: Structural Failures [Re: Peter J] #600359
22/10/19 05:27 AM
22/10/19 05:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,433
Taunton
deano Offline
Charter Member
deano  Offline
Charter Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,433
Taunton
Keep us in touch with the progress Peter.


Martin (Deano)
Re: Structural Failures [Re: sospan] #600372
22/10/19 07:21 AM
22/10/19 07:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,480
howard Offline
Part of the Furniture
howard  Offline
Part of the Furniture

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,480
Originally Posted by sospan
PeterJ....looking closer at your pic of the broken bracket there seems to be some weld spatter on the top and the inner wing?
Has someone tried welding the bracket after early signs of impending failure/cracks? If so then has the metal been affected by heat?
The hole at the top of the bracket looks odd too. Possibly a crack initiated there and subsequently grew due to stresses. The fracture surface looks odd with a “line” running along it suggesting crack propagation and then sudden fracture. Two separate surfaces either side of the “line”.


I can see what you are getting at but I think you are mistaken. It looks to me as if the T shape has been made by welding a piece of ally to a flat plate of ally and the line you see down the sticky out bit is where it has been sheared to shape. Difficult to be sure because the photo doesnt show the fracture site end on and there should be something there to indicate why it happened at that precise location. A photo of the mating part would be useful. But there is no indication of any prior repair where the failure has happened

Re: Structural Failures [Re: howard] #600378
22/10/19 08:22 AM
22/10/19 08:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 11,761
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 11,761
Salisbury, UK
I had a good look at the faces of the bracket failure. There is a clear line or rib running down the centre of the broken face, with lines at about 60 degrees from the centre to the sides. It is almost like a birds feather, with the quill and vanes.
At the top, where the bracket joints the plate bolted to the car there are signs of hammer effect, probably due to the two parts of the bracket hitting each other.

So, is it a fatigue crack, or due to a flaw in the sheet material used to make the bracket?

I've asked Williams to replace the part, but even if MMC don't have one it would be easy enough to repair with a couple of fish plates, bolts and bonding material.

As to the "glue failure" Williams have seen this before and will clean up and re-glue. If it happens again a pair pf spotlights would be the answer, with a retaining bolt going through the wing into the fixing point on the chassis!


Peter,
Tarka the 'Otter Mog
2014 Plus 8


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