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Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: John V6] #597093
28/09/19 08:37 AM
28/09/19 08:37 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,013
Gloucestershire, UK
Hamwich Offline
Talk Morgan Guru
Hamwich  Offline
Talk Morgan Guru

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,013
Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted by John V6
The argument is that for pre 2004 cars where the nipple replaces the oiler pipe then the hole drilled through the kingpin is very small so very little grease if any gets through it and it comes out above the stub axle so does nothing. Read Gomog for the various arguments. http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/remotegreasing.html


Exactly. If they've started fitting top nipples again then it implies that the diameter and exit location of the king pin drilling has been changed. Can anyone confirm?


Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar
Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #597102
28/09/19 10:25 AM
28/09/19 10:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,973
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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DaveW  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,973
South Yorkshire
The kingpins on my Roadster were for Devol bushes, so were not drilled for the upper grease nipple. Notwithstanding that, when the first owner replaced the stub axles with the revised geometry items, the dealer who did the job fitted upper lube bolts and nipples, which led nowhere.

The replacement pins I fitted later had the tiny drilling at the top, only a couple of mm.

The pins on my 2012 were the same with the tiny drilling. From memory it emerges just above the Bush.

Last edited by DaveW; 28/09/19 10:26 AM.

DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4
Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: Hamwich] #597104
28/09/19 11:03 AM
28/09/19 11:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,094
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Richard Wood Online NoMood
Talk Morgan Expert
Richard Wood  Online NoMood
Talk Morgan Expert

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,094
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by John V6
The argument is that for pre 2004 cars where the nipple replaces the oiler pipe then the hole drilled through the kingpin is very small so very little grease if any gets through it and it comes out above the stub axle so does nothing. Read Gomog for the various arguments. http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/remotegreasing.html


Exactly. If they've started fitting top nipples again then it implies that the diameter and exit location of the king pin drilling has been changed. Can anyone confirm?


Yes on latest cars there is a circumferal groove machined into kingpin, below static height of stub axle, with cross drillings at base of groove approx 2-3mm if memory serves. These intercept the vertical hole drilled from top of kingpin to allow passage of grease.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1967 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #603198
11/11/19 09:13 PM
11/11/19 09:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 5
Bath
J
jackmorini Offline
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jackmorini  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 5
Bath
Looking back at DaveW's & Jimmyw's comments I too find that the BRBs are rubbing the tyres. This is on a 2013 4+4 with standard 165/80 tyres. After less than 1,000 miles both metal & rubber are shiny. The dealer who fitted them says that it's not unusual & nothing to worry about. But to me it's simply bad design & I'm tempted to remove them.
Forgive my ignorance but what are "chassis rollers"? - they don't sound like a standard Morgan part.

Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #603206
11/11/19 09:58 PM
11/11/19 09:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 437
L
Luddite Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Luddite  Offline
Learner Plates Off!
L

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 437
I think you may find the rollers in the Rutter catalogue...? I suspect they acted as a steering stop placed on the chassis at the point where the tyre would come into contact with the roller on a tight turn. I suspect many an old Trad Morgan has signs of the tyres rubbing somewhere, perhaps more so if driven enthusiastically... (-:

Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #603227
12/11/19 08:05 AM
12/11/19 08:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 154
Bergen, Norway
R
Robbie Mathisen Offline
L - Learner Plates On
Robbie Mathisen  Offline
L - Learner Plates On
R

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 154
Bergen, Norway
If it is only a slight contact between the BRS and the tyre I wouldn't worry. It only happens when the stering wheel is on full lock, and that hardly occurs driving on the road. You should be able to hear it (when parking etc) and thus avoiding the last cm of turning the wheel. But I know people that have overcome the problem by putting some washers between the ower end of the BRS and the chassis, so to lift the BRS a few mm up and away from the tyre. And some have also put the BRS in a vice, then thightened the vice to flatten the BRS slightly where it touches the tyre. As for removing it; did you notice any difference putting them on? If not, you might as well remove. I did notice improvement when I put them onto my Roadster (luckily no chafing), but the difference was subtle, calming the front end down - as a matter of fact most of the time, not only braking


Robbie the Norseman
2004 V6 Roadster
Sherwood green
Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #603233
12/11/19 09:12 AM
12/11/19 09:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 682
A
Arwyn Williams Offline
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Arwyn Williams  Offline
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A

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 682
When I've fitted brake reaction bars, I've always fitted them in such a way as to ensure clearance between the bar and the tyre on full lock. I've also moved the rubbing block outwards by a few mm to get the clearance at the theoretical loss of a bit of steering lock.

My interpretation of the Testers Manual is the exemption (which is actually not specific to Morgans) relates to contact between tyre and chassis. The exemption refers to rubbing blocks rather than chassis fittings.

Arwyn

Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #603511
14/11/19 01:10 PM
14/11/19 01:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 5
Bath
J
jackmorini Offline
New to Talk Morgan
jackmorini  Offline
New to Talk Morgan
J

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 5
Bath
An update of my own investigations.
The parts man at Melvin Rutter says that the chassis rollers are intended for earlier Morgans before rack & pinion steering and couldn't comment on whether they would help. If they did help I assume that it would be at the cost of reducing full lock to some degree.
I also visisted the factory shop for a couple of items and spoke to a mechanic. He was more forthcoming and was surprised that there was contact and suggested two reasons:
- there is not enough toe-in
- a third party accessory that's too long (factory BRBs have oblong holes so they can be jiggled to avoid contact)
My thoughts are that the toe-in might be wrong because SSL suspension was fitted at the same time; and I don't know who made the BRBs.
The mechanic then suggested a simple solution is to flatten the end of the bar, cut off the old end piece then drill new holes in the bars and chassis. This would give bars angled further forward but with some reduction in their bracing.
I'm now pondering whether to attempt the work myself.
As an aside, while at the factory I saw a new Plus without its body in the open garage near the spares shop. It had both top & bottom braces to the kingpins; it also had Spax dampers on the rear & a panhard rod so I guess these were all options chosen by the buyer. (I didn't have the nerve to turn the steering wheel to full lock)

Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #603512
14/11/19 01:29 PM
14/11/19 01:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,973
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
DaveW  Offline
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Posts: 17,973
South Yorkshire
Contact varies car to car. The 4/4 wheels have more inset than either Plus4 wheels or Roadster wheels.

I fitted BRBs to my 2012, and drilled the holes as inboard as possible, filing the corners to allow maximum adjustment, and they didn't touch with 185/70s.

My 2016 as delivered did touch, and this caused a braking effect on full lock. Again with 185/70s, which are standard on the narrow Plus 4.

So I squeezed the lower section in the vice, and slotted the holes, and added washers to lift the ends, and now I can fit a piece of paper between tyre sidewall and BRB. So still tight.


DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) Plus 4
Re: Brake Reaction Bars [Re: MDS61] #603521
14/11/19 04:14 PM
14/11/19 04:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 878
Staffordshire
I
IvorMog Offline
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IvorMog  Offline
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I

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 878
Staffordshire
IMHO & FWIW, I don't think the BRBs make much difference on the 4/4 with standard 165/80R15 tyres.

The brake effect torque is less because of the skinny tyres and the lighter wheel and tyre assembly helps as well.

I fitted the BRBs and didn't notice any significant benefits. I only fitted them as it seemed to be a recommended must have and not because I had a particular problem that I was trying to solve.

The only change I noticed was a reduction in steering lock due to rubbing well before full lock was reached. (BTW the car passed it's MOT even with the rubbing).

I did crush the bars slightly as per DaveW's suggestion but still got some rubbing so I took them off and went for a good test drive.

I didn't notice any change to the handling or braking but I was very happy to have my full lock back again.

Probably do make a difference to wider tyre cars but not in my opinion to the Narrow 4/4 with the 165s

Only my opinion but I don't fit anything unless I can discern a significant improvement and in this case I could not.

Last edited by IvorMog; 14/11/19 04:15 PM.

Bob

1999 4/4 2.0 Zetec
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