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Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609086
20/12/19 03:59 PM
20/12/19 03:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Online content OP
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Heinz  Online Content OP
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Dave my rack is also on the loose side a little bit now when driving straight ahead. Did you have had a comparison with another Roadster or did you adjust it to your personal preference?


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609119
20/12/19 05:57 PM
20/12/19 05:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,612
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Luddite Offline
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Heinz, from your description of your steering feeling loose while driving straight ahead, it seems likely to be the result of play somewhere in the system.

That you have checked over everything, it seems probable that the pinion to rack adjustment (mesh) may need a fraction of a turn to provide a bit more direct feel to the steering..

PLAY can be measured by turning the steering wheel from clockwise to anti clockwise UNTIL you feel resistance in both directions. That resistance being created by the road wheels contact with the ground before they start to move even fractionally.

This PLAY on my old +8 with a 15" /400mm steering wheel, when measured on the outer edge of the steering wheel, is about 7mm in total, (left to right) if more than that on your car, perhaps that is the reason you describe the steering as "loose" caused by the the lack of pressure in the mesh between rack and pinion.. ?

The same thing can occur if the rack and pinion become worn, which tends to show up in a situation when the steering is in the straight ahead position just as you describe as on a high mileage vehicle most of the steering action is in that area of the rack... Also in that situation the free play reduces once the wheels are turned away from the straight ahead position..

This usual procedure may be complicated by the issue you describe due to possible misalignment in one of your Universal Joints when trying to feel resistance as described above...?

Hope this helps and does not add confusion..?

Good luck.

Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609133
20/12/19 07:43 PM
20/12/19 07:43 PM
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IcePack Offline
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I'm sure this has been checked, but when I took delivery of my 4/4 it felt awful in a straight line. (felt very like play) Seems the factory had somehow set a tiny bit of toe out. Bit of a re jig of the front end which as it happens included different shocks solved the problem.


4/4 Ivory 4.1:1 axle, Jaguar XE R-Sport.
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609134
20/12/19 07:45 PM
20/12/19 07:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,832
Mandello del Lario
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Peter

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Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609156
21/12/19 01:52 AM
21/12/19 01:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Online content OP
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Heinz  Online Content OP
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Posts: 5,886
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Thanks all for your comments.
Luddite, there is no play, the steering reacts to the smallest turn even when driving straight ahead. It is under control but we have adjust the rack a little bit on the light side the way Dave W has described the steering of his Roadster before he screwed the pinion a tad more in. We will do the same. This time we will turn the steering wheel to get a proper feel for the right amount of resistance when altering the pressure of the pinion. As I mentioned the rack was too heavy resistant and now it is just a bit to loose and gives a weird feel during the straight ahead part of steering. Play should not occure regarding this system at all and I do not feel play. See Lorne Goldman Watchpoint IV. http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/steeringr&p.html
And as you can see in the photos above, the condition of rack and pinion still looks pretty good.

Regarding the U joints, without U joint shafts connected my steering turns smoothly and even when moved at the wheels.
Jon, the first part of the steering shafts which starts directly from the steering wheel looks very good in our case. It is the following part that is not „round“. We will have another close look at it.

IcePack, the steering was adjusted to 1mm toe in with the change to new tyres in spring. I know what you mean. A little bit of toe out gives a strange feeling and disturbs the straight ahead driving quite sensitively.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609164
21/12/19 08:36 AM
21/12/19 08:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 19,305
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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DaveW  Offline
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South Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Heinz
Dave my rack is also on the loose side a little bit now when driving straight ahead. Did you have had a comparison with another Roadster or did you adjust it to your personal preference?


I didn't compare Heinz, it just wasn't right. Fortunately I'm familiar enough with steering racks to realise that!


DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) AR Plus 4
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609228
21/12/19 03:40 PM
21/12/19 03:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,943
Seattle, USA
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Button Offline
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Seattle, USA
FWIW: I have a Jack Knight Rack on My +8 Bitsa. Steering got sloppy. There is a block of Nylatron that pushes the Pinion into the rack. It had swelled. I was able to get the Nylatron out but could not get it back in. A Machinist Friend used a lathe file and re-fitted the Nylatron, About 3 years ago. So far so good.


Button
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609234
21/12/19 04:21 PM
21/12/19 04:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 732
Manitoba, Canada
BertL Offline
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BertL  Offline
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Posts: 732
Manitoba, Canada
"Regarding the U joints, without U joint shafts connected my steering turns smoothly and even when moved at the wheels."

IMHO, therein lies the crux of the problem, no reason to search elsewhere, repair or replace the offending U-joint.... cheers


Bert & B1800
"Tis well enough to know how much to know; and when to know, not to know, too much."
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609246
21/12/19 05:05 PM
21/12/19 05:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,612
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Luddite Offline
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Posts: 1,612
Heinz, I am pleased that you found the cause creating the change in feel as you rotated the steering wheel, and seemingly identified it as the result of a universal joint that for some reason is out of alignment, and which you can hopefully rectify. I would be far less than happy with any universal joint adding anything to the feel of the steering, be that by adding play when worn, or resistance to turning either due to internal corrosion, misalignment, or being used outside it`s design parameters..

As you have determined there is now no play in the steering, I am unsure if that may be ideal in a road car, where the slightest driver input to the steering wheel could create an alteration in direction, thinking perhaps s a sneeze or body movement caused by hitting a pot hole etc...?

With no play whatsoever in the steering I suspect it may require constant correction..? If you consider a similar input to the system can also come from from the road surface given the many influences found on it...camber changes, repairs, puddles, etc. A small measure of play felt at the steering wheel may enhance the feel of the steering, and perhaps require slightly less corrective input...?

The play I mentioned can relate directly to the feel of the steering system, and the only play likely to be found should be at the interface of the rack to pinion gear teeth, If your pinion to rack adjustment has too much pressure in it caused by over adjustment, the steering will feel tight and require constant correction while driving and rob the driver of the ability of the steering system to self centre / return to straight ahead after turning a corner...

I can well understand that on a race car that zero play maximises the very direct feel in the steering system which may be an ideal , perhaps less so on the road, and in a car with vintage suspension design...?

Increasing play in steering (under adjustment) can also equate to wear found in other components within the system which generally can be detected by the driver at the steering wheel. In the case of my Morgan more than the 7mm or so measured at the outside of the rim of the steering wheel would alter the feel, the more that play increases the more urgent it is to look for the problem causing the increasing play, which similar to an overly stiff steering will require more driver input to keep on course...?

IcePac`s suggestion on the loose feel that may be experienced at the steering wheel if even slight toe out is found in the alignment, is something I have experienced on vehicles..

Thanks for posting the GoMoG link Heinz, I am a long time BIG fan of GoMoG and the huge amount of effort that Lorne the web master there has over many many years put into providing totally FREE access to a huge wealth of Morgan related data to help Morganeers maintain and repair their cars, and all devoid of advertising.. I suspect there is many a Morganeer who would perhaps grudgingly be forced to admit the answer to resolving their issues was found on GoMoG...?

I do hope your steering FEEL can be adjusted to match your requirements of it.

Good luck Heinz.

Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609250
21/12/19 05:20 PM
21/12/19 05:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Online content OP
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Heinz  Online Content OP
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Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Bert, I agree, this is the major issue. And it should be solved easily by changing the in the meantime identified bad shaft.
The smaller second issue is that the steering rack itself was adjusted way to hard. The rack and pinion itself is ok without any wear but it was almost all the way turned in during the 5.5 years of the cars lifetime. Therefore the spring below the screw may be pressed too much because I do not feel a smooth change of resistance but a relatively abrupt change at ca. 1/8 turn out of the pinion adjustment screw. And unlike in Dave’s case who described 9 years ago in his old TM thread that it was very hard to set the adjustment screw in, which follows the spring, the adjustment screw following „our“ spring can be turned into it‘s thread without the need of any power. So could it be possible that our spring was pressed too much and too long time and is consequently out of shape? Or keeps such a spring shape and elasticity once released?
All that saying I think when using a spring which is stronger I could fine tune the steering resistance in smaller steps.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
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