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Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Robbie] #633551
28/04/20 01:27 PM
28/04/20 01:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,896
Köln Germany
Heinz Online content
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I agree. But probably the question is meant in the sense of whether the mapping has been adapted to the different vehicle. For example, whether the BMW 4 cylinder with manual transmission also has less torque than the automatic version, or whether the torque curve is the same in the Morgans as in the BMWs.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Heinz] #633564
28/04/20 02:34 PM
28/04/20 02:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,683
East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Online NoMood
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Originally Posted by Heinz
I agree. But probably the question is meant in the sense of whether the mapping has been adapted to the different vehicle. For example, whether the BMW 4 cylinder with manual transmission also has less torque than the automatic version, or whether the torque curve is the same in the Morgans as in the BMWs.

I agree that engine performance figures are probably tweaked within the PCM to suit the two Plus Four variants, but they probably are for each BMW car variant using that engine version as well.

What surprised me after the Plus Four launch were the big differences in max torque figures quoted between manual and automatic versions, although the same bhp confused2


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1966 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Robbie] #633570
28/04/20 02:56 PM
28/04/20 02:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,896
Köln Germany
Heinz Online content
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Just a guess, maybe the high plateau of torque at medium rpm has been capped in the manual version to protect the gearbox, and the maximum power is the same for automatic and manual at the higher rpm range. There the torque is lower and also the same for both versions but there is no more danger for the manual gearbox.
In addition perhaps with the manual box the same HP is realized at slightly higher revs with a little less torque.

Last edited by Heinz; 28/04/20 03:10 PM.

'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Heinz] #633679
29/04/20 06:20 AM
29/04/20 06:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,683
East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Online NoMood
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Originally Posted by Heinz
Just a guess, maybe the high plateau of torque at medium rpm has been capped in the manual version to protect the gearbox, and the maximum power is the same for automatic and manual at the higher rpm range. There the torque is lower and also the same for both versions but there is no more danger for the manual gearbox.
In addition perhaps with the manual box the same HP is realized at slightly higher revs with a little less torque.

I was going to suggest it didn't make sense for BMW to supply an engine and manual transmission package that wouldn't take to the full torque of their 190kW variant of the B48 engine. However having had a closer look at the other cars that use that engine variant it appears they all use the ZF 8HP auto box, excepting hybrids.

I wonder therefore if the situation was as you suggest. Maybe MMC feeling they needed to offer a manual option to satisfy cutomer demand on their +4 replacement, asked BMW to provide a manual engine transmission package. Pure speculation but possibly BMW's response was to offer a gearbox from a less powerful variant that required re-programming of the powertrain to limit torque down from the standard 295lbft (400Nm) to 258lbft (350Nm), a surprisingly large reduction IMO, and one of the first things I noticed when the Plus Four was first announced, reflected by the slower 0-100 kph figure.

Would be interested to hear if anyone knows any different on this issue.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1966 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Robbie] #633689
29/04/20 08:18 AM
29/04/20 08:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 605
Suffolk Uk.
Hawki Offline
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It’s amazing how things have changed. It wasn’t many year ago when the manual always had the best performance and an automatic option always meant a slower car with worse fuel economy.

I feel fortunate becoming disabled at the right time so an automatic is a bonus not a liability. I perfectly understand however why people still like manuals.

Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Hawki] #633904
30/04/20 08:35 AM
30/04/20 08:35 AM
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East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Online NoMood
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Originally Posted by Hawki
It’s amazing how things have changed. It wasn’t many year ago when the manual always had the best performance and an automatic option always meant a slower car with worse fuel economy.

I agree, although the ZF 8HP gearbox is a tough act to follow, turning the trend of quicker dual clutch auto's trans back to torque converters. Nevertheless I guess we both know how slick it is having driven the Plus Six.

[Linked Image]

The case for the new manual Plus Four's performance is seemingly engineered though. Less torque hence worse performance, slightly worse fuel economy and higher CO2 emissions just don't stack up. At least it's cheaper than the auto version though.

On a side note, interesting that BMW can swap out the torque converter for an electric drive as easy adaption for hybrid cars.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1966 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Robbie] #634042
30/04/20 05:33 PM
30/04/20 05:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,262
european union
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european union
I think it is smart to lower the torque on the manual and keep the hp
as you have too much torque due to the turbo
now you can build up power rather than too much low-rev oomph


now: NoMog
sold: A'max/M3W/V6/444seater
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Robbie] #641593
01/06/20 11:13 AM
01/06/20 11:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,333
Luton, Bedfordshire
Fox Terrier Offline
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Luton, Bedfordshire
Is there a fully electric Plus Four E planned? If so, I'm really intrigued.


Morgan Plus 4
Brompton M6L
Giant TCX Advanced
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Fox Terrier] #641601
01/06/20 12:35 PM
01/06/20 12:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,735
Gloucestershire, UK
Hamwich Offline
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Hamwich  Offline
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Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted by Fox Terrier
Is there a fully electric Plus Four E planned? If so, I'm really intrigued.


If there was, I'm pretty sure I could get clearance from the domestic authorities. Here's hoping!


Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 1957 R4 CV, 2005 Ferrari Vipar
Re: New 4cylinder car [Re: Robbie] #641706
02/06/20 07:52 AM
02/06/20 07:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
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East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Online NoMood
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Given the ZF 8HP auto box in the present Plus Four is already the base for BMW hybrids, wouldn't such be an easier first step towards full electric for MMC [Linked Image]


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - "Morton"
1966 Land Rover series 2a SWB
1960 Velocette Venom
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