Click here to return to the home page.
Image of a road.
Who's Online Now
14 registered members (Alistair, Sir Percival, V8Dave, +8Rich, HowthHead, Steve62Hope, Marmota, Tresco, IcePack, Paulxj, DJC, SFG, JohnS, jimmyw), 191 guests, and 16 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
John V6 364
+8Rich 214
TBM 149
CooperMan 123
Newest Topics
front stub axle failure
by bruce. 23/10/20 11:06 PM
Lockdown!
by Gambalunga. 23/10/20 05:54 PM
LAND ROVER..GRAHAM G4FUJ
by KEVFITZ. 23/10/20 02:11 PM
Battery...Again!
by Peter J. 23/10/20 02:01 PM
Continental Trail Attack 3 front tyres
by WarBird. 23/10/20 01:42 PM
Pop Master
by lowebird. 23/10/20 09:50 AM
AERO S3 NEW FACE...
by KEVFITZ. 23/10/20 07:19 AM
Latest Photos
Another Lancastrian
For Sale: Luggage rack & front bumper
Malvern Show 2
Malvern Show 1
MGB`s can corrode..?
Newest Members
LOLO 04, sss6000, Dylan614, kbac, Gwyn D
7205 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics39,655
Posts655,843
Members7,205
Most Online1,033
Dec 28th, 2019
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Luddite] #659387
30/08/20 03:15 PM
30/08/20 03:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,670
Petersfield, Hampshire
Ian Wegg Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
Ian Wegg  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,670
Petersfield, Hampshire
Originally Posted by Luddite
That which seemed acceptable in the past has altered considerably perhaps more so in the world of high value old cars, such as the Bentleys, more so if the law get involved...?
Yes exactly. This modern obsession with "matching numbers" would seem bizarre to the original owners. Bentley was known to swap engines between cars in their own workshops, some of their models didn't even have matching numbers when they left the factory.


1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater.
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Kevcaster] #659483
31/08/20 07:45 AM
31/08/20 07:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,306
L
Luddite Offline
Has a lot to Say!
Luddite  Offline
Has a lot to Say!
L

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,306
Back in the mists of time as best I can remember one was grateful to find a donor of any parts in a scrap yard to keep an old car running, numbers relative to originality and identity were never a concern. I suspect Morgans were the most modified of old cars given so many folk are encouraged to think they can improve so much of the rudimentary aspects of the design and build..

I have a dull memory of a "passport" created for vehicles taking part in European events, whereby the identity of the vehicle was established and certified for whatever reason. It may be that non-DVLA registered vehicles such as competition machinery were required to be identified by some means. Such issues may be related to the number of vehicles disappearing from the UK into Eastern Europe or perhaps some sort of customs issue... I have no real idea.

I am all for keeping old cars going by whatever reasonably legitimate means possible, and I am in favour of a car wearing it`s history to some degree, as opposed to it looking like the paint has just dried. I remember an imported Model T turning up at a local car show many years ago, it was entered into the concours, the T looked like it was straight out of the box, and the owner provided a very detailed record documenting it`s full professional restoration in the USA. It of course walked off with the trophy, but that seemed unfair to me at the time when the rest of the entrants had been beavering away in their garages to keep their old cars looking smart... Yeah, a lot has changed in the passage of time.. oldgit

Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Kevcaster] #659510
31/08/20 10:26 AM
31/08/20 10:26 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7,315
Llanelli
sospan Offline
Talk Morgan Guru
sospan  Offline
Talk Morgan Guru

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7,315
Llanelli
There was a legal battle over a Bentley a few years ago. It had a good racing history and as a result it had been rebuilt, parts changed etc as a consequence of the normal racing repair and maintenance.The woman who bought it subsequently tried claiming a mis-selling as she thought the “originality” described was untrue due to many replacements , including engine. She lost her case in the High Court as the changes were documented and were the norm for a racing car.
Also, on a Chasing Classic Cars episode at a Pebble Beach auction the US authorities stepped in to inspect the cars, looking for true originality. VIN plates was a big cause of concern as they weren’t accepting new replacement plates or even newly riveted on original plates! They were looking for fake cars. I think some cars were removed from auction pending more verification and others sold with a caveat of non original plates/rivets being recorded.


Red Plus8
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: sospan] #659516
31/08/20 10:35 AM
31/08/20 10:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,477
Powick
tmg513 Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
tmg513  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,477
Powick
Originally Posted by sospan
There was a legal battle over a Bentley a few years ago. It had a good racing history and as a result it had been rebuilt, parts changed etc as a consequence of the normal racing repair and maintenance.The woman who bought it subsequently tried claiming a mis-selling as she thought the “originality” described was untrue due to many replacements , including engine. She lost her case in the High Court as the changes were documented and were the norm for a racing car.

If that's Brewer v Mann she won.

https://www.bermans.co.uk/asset-finance-publications/article10/


1972 4/4 2 Seater
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: tmg513] #659520
31/08/20 10:48 AM
31/08/20 10:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,670
Petersfield, Hampshire
Ian Wegg Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
Ian Wegg  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,670
Petersfield, Hampshire
Originally Posted by tmg513


She won initially but Stanley Mann successfully appealed:

Conclusion of the Speed Six Bentley Case

I mentioned it a few posts back. The Brewer rulings cited the earlier "Old Number One" case, mentioned by Luddite, which established the "continuous history" principle.


1980 Royal Ivory 4/4 4-seater.
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Kevcaster] #665304
02/10/20 04:22 PM
02/10/20 04:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 419
Surrey
K
Kevcaster Offline OP
Learner Plates Off!
Kevcaster  Offline OP
Learner Plates Off!
K

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 419
Surrey
VIN Plate restored. B&C managed to obtain a new one for a princely £20.


Kevin

2009 Morgan Plus 4 4 seater
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Luddite] #665436
03/10/20 02:16 PM
03/10/20 02:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,584
Mandello del Lario
Gambalunga Offline
Member of the Inner Circle
Gambalunga  Offline
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,584
Mandello del Lario
Originally Posted by Luddite
Back in the mists of time as best I can remember one was grateful to find a donor of any parts in a scrap yard to keep an old car running, numbers relative to originality and identity were never a concern. I suspect Morgans were the most modified of old cars given so many folk are encouraged to think they can improve so much of the rudimentary aspects of the design and build..

I have a dull memory of a "passport" created for vehicles taking part in European events, whereby the identity of the vehicle was established and certified for whatever reason. It may be that non-DVLA registered vehicles such as competition machinery were required to be identified by some means. Such issues may be related to the number of vehicles disappearing from the UK into Eastern Europe or perhaps some sort of customs issue... I have no real idea.

I am all for keeping old cars going by whatever reasonably legitimate means possible, and I am in favour of a car wearing it`s history to some degree, as opposed to it looking like the paint has just dried. I remember an imported Model T turning up at a local car show many years ago, it was entered into the concours, the T looked like it was straight out of the box, and the owner provided a very detailed record documenting it`s full professional restoration in the USA. It of course walked off with the trophy, but that seemed unfair to me at the time when the rest of the entrants had been beavering away in their garages to keep their old cars looking smart... Yeah, a lot has changed in the passage of time.. oldgit

I have occasionally acted as a concours judge of classic motorcycles and I have never given an award to an over-restored and over-polished motorcycle. I have always favoured originality and well cared for machines.


Peter

[Linked Image]
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Kevcaster] #665449
03/10/20 03:13 PM
03/10/20 03:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,306
L
Luddite Offline
Has a lot to Say!
Luddite  Offline
Has a lot to Say!
L

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,306
Terms such as over restored and over polished would seem difficult to determine when the event is identified as Concours de Elegance...? One has only to look at the entrants at Pebble Beach to see the levels of money involved, which is so very far away from someone giving their best shot at keeping an old machine in very nice roadworthy condition.

As an occasional judge myself in times past, we tried to even things up a bit by utilising a points system for different aspects of the vehicle to avoid the gleam machines walking off with the prizes... Points for miles travelled and convoy drives prior to the judging, so no turning up with no oil in the sump etc.etc.etc.

I remember one lady turning up with her barn find Edwardian tourer, which had not been touched other than to dust it down and get it running, she was unsure what to do with it in terms of restoration, the general consensus was not to restore it, but to preserve it in running order given that it might be one of very few in the passage of time that may be polished within an inch of it`s life...?

Another story I have oft repeated was that of a well travelled old Morgan that clearly showed signs of almost every mile travelled in terms of fit and finish and with scars a plenty... It turned up at a hotel based Morgan event, amongst all the glittering Morgans that one might expect to find at such a marque gathering ... The tired old Mog was elevated to pride of place in the foyer of the hotel... I liked that tale.

Also in the early days of GoMoG there was a little column, perhaps written by the webmaster there on the variation of the range of appreciation to be found across the Morgan community for Morgans of all types from the bling to the tied together with string.... Pity I can not find it now as it was so well written... well at least I thought so..

In times past I ever valued a machine on condition, though such seem to be the vagaries of the "Classic Market" today that documented history of everything is a prerequisite in terms of determining the value of a machine... Hmm..?

Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Kevcaster] #665457
03/10/20 04:12 PM
03/10/20 04:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18,797
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
DaveW  Offline
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18,797
South Yorkshire
Different clubs use different regulations for Concours Competitions and it can vary widely.

The Meguiars NEC event is clearly focused on mega restored examples, and many of the viewing public do seem to enjoy seeing "pristine".

In the end, there is a slot for every taste. People get drawn into Concours, and it becomes super competitive, which is why clearly defined rules are essential, both for the entrant and the judges.

Without having experienced the pull, it's probably hard to see the attraction.


DaveW
2005 Corsa Red Roadster S1
2016 Saffron Yellow (Narrow) AR Plus 4
Re: VIN plate missing [Re: Kevcaster] #665487
03/10/20 07:23 PM
03/10/20 07:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 419
Surrey
K
Kevcaster Offline OP
Learner Plates Off!
Kevcaster  Offline OP
Learner Plates Off!
K

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 419
Surrey
Veering off line for a moment. The Rory Gallagher Band were revered among musicians of the 60s for being the hardest working band on the road, pitching up at gigs of 40 people as well as the festivals of the day. They travelled in a clapped out Bedford van lived a paupers life but always turned in a blistering set.
You only needed to see his beaten up and threadbare Stratocaster to know the whole story. I was in Dublin and found myself in Rory Gallagher place marked by a bronze Strat mounted on the wall - a fitting tribute.
Anyway the point is made above, beaten up, unpolished and well used is also great


Kevin

2009 Morgan Plus 4 4 seater
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Aeroman, Simon 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1