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Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665307
02/10/20 04:26 PM
02/10/20 04:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,916
Suffolk, England
John V6 Offline
Brooklands Register contact
John V6  Offline
Brooklands Register contact
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,916
Suffolk, England
Richard so did you then buy non canbus indicator LEDs? I agree with you on the side lights & am working on it.

Steve the H4 replacements are amazing. Far brighter at night but on a test drive no one flashed me so I think they must be OK. The MOT next year will tell.



JohnV6
2014 Brooklands Edition Roadster "Brookland's Belle" #5 of 50
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: John V6] #665334
02/10/20 06:35 PM
02/10/20 06:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,103
East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Offline
Talk Morgan Sage
RichardV6  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,103
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted by John V6
Richard so did you then buy non canbus indicator LEDs? I agree with you on the side lights & am working on it.


Long story but found that indicators flashed quicker with one bulb removed - maybe 70% faster - but with Cobra brake LED in its place flashed normally. Then discussed with Duncan. He suggested despite my findings that I went for the canbus type as they have internal resistors - except he only had two! Then he did some current draw checks whilst on the phone finding canbus amber type draw 1.2 and normal ones 0.7 amp each. He's confident that with the tiny help from repeaters this will collectively present enough load for the electronic flasher within BCU to flash normally. Consequently has sent two of each.

Regarding your front sidelights would the same LED headlamp bulbs work with the ARV6 type headlamp lens as with Tony's car? Other suggestion would be to change front indicator lamps to BA15d double filament type. You could then use the white/amber LED's Duncan offers with auto switch over when indicators active. Clear lens would be needed of course.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - Morton
1966 Land Rover S2a 88 - Lenny
1945 Moto Guzzi Airone
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665341
02/10/20 07:16 PM
02/10/20 07:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,916
Suffolk, England
John V6 Offline
Brooklands Register contact
John V6  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,916
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I have a cunning plan Richard. I'll explain when we meet next


JohnV6
2014 Brooklands Edition Roadster "Brookland's Belle" #5 of 50
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665374
03/10/20 08:06 AM
03/10/20 08:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 469
Bergen, Norway
R
Robbie Mathisen Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Robbie Mathisen  Offline
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R

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 469
Bergen, Norway
Originally Posted by DaveW
The standard Trad headlamps are really quite pitiful compared to modern cars, producing a dim yellow glow, which is hardly safe on today’s roads. If you are a fair weather Morgan driver this may not trouble you much. But my early morning outings often begin in the dark, and it can often be dark for quite some time. I have replaced both pairs of headlamps on my Morgans. The Roadster has a pair of Halo sidelamp units designed for Land Rovers. My Plus 4 has Cibie units, sold by Librands. In both cases I fitted good quality H4 bulbs, but the light output is still poor.

First the legal disclaimer. Technically, aftermarket LED bulbs are not road legal according to the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations, as they are not E marked. Sections 4 & 5 state that dipped beam and main beam headlights are required to have an approval mark - usually E mark or a British Standard mark. For nearly every other application, an approval mark is also required. If the bulbs for your headlights are H4, the “H” stands for Halogen meaning the headlight unit including the reflector has been purposely built for a Halogen bulb. The number that follows the “H” indicates that only an H bulb with the same number can be installed.
Rear brake lights are required by law to operate between 15 and 36 watts, however a 15w LED would produce an immense amount of light, and so is totally unsuitable at that wattage. Unfortunately, the legislation is old and outdated. Written in 1986, there are still many things that need to be changed. For example, the legislation doesn’t take new technologies into account. It was written at a time when the idea of replacing one technology for another within the same headlight unit just wasn’t on the table.

The MOT manual states “Check HID and LED headlamps for mandatory levelling and cleaning devices” and the tester should check the lighting for “Operation“, “Security” and “Condition” which essentially means that they need to make sure that the lights work, and are fitted correctly. Nothing else is mentioned regarding the use of LED headlight bulbs. In respect of self levelling and cleaning devices, section 4.1.5 of the MOT inspection manual states that not all vehicles are fitted with a levelling device, and so if your vehicle doesn’t have one, it would not be tested. With no other mention of after-market LEDs in the MOT guidelines, all that is left is for them to check is that the beam pattern is correct and the colour of the light is predominantly white, white with a blue tint or yellow. Any good quality after-market LED bulbs will meet this criteria. As long as the beam pattern and the colour of the light is correct – then there is no reason an LED upgrade bulb will fail an MOT.

Having made the case that this technology is technically not road legal, I’ll now justify making these changes on the grounds of safety. And also bear in mind that there is a strong anti LED lobby out there, if you search the internet. My headlamp bulbs were sourced from Classic Car LEDs (www.classiccarleds.co.uk)….no connection, (coughs), and other suppliers are out there.

Fitting is fiddly. Be under no illusions about that. The first one I did, probably took me about two hours, as I tried various ways of fitting the control box and much larger bulb unit into the available space in the headlamp cowl. Both my Morgans have plastic headlamp bowls. The headlamp unit will just fit inside the plastic bowl if the black heat sink is reversed. But the control unit has to be fitted behind the plastic bowl inside the cowl. This is a weatherproof component, but inside the cowl is weatherproof anyway. Interestingly inside my cowls showed dried water droplets, but touring Scotland does mean driving in torrential rain over long distances. I wanted to do a quality fit with two holes cut into the plastic cowl, with grommets, but the reality is that the control box wires are only just long enough to reach and the positioning of the box is “suck it and see”. So in the end I put two large holes in the plastic cowl at roughly nine o’clock and three o’clock positions. Then juggled the cowl back into place until I could refit the four self tappers which hold the plastic cowl securely onto the headlamp nacelle. One of the self tappers was odd.........handmade cars eh!

Then the headlamp unit with LED bulb can be connected. One end of the control box wiring is plugged into the H4 three spade plug. The other end is a 4 pin screwed weatherproof connector, with an idiot proof fitting, so I was good. I checked the alignment before removing the old bulbs, on a piece of brown paper, attached to my bench with drawing pins. The new lights needed lowering slightly. I’ll get the alignment checked when I can. A few days later I was out in the dark and was not flashed by anyone approaching, so they obviously don’t dazzle. Light output is transformational. Hopefully the images attached will show the difference. The light is white, rather than yellow, and with a much better spread. So for me, while recognising that these lights are not technically road legal, I feel that the safety improvements are worth making this change. I may at some point change the brake lamps. Still thinking about that!

I might change the Roadster to the Cibie Units, because the dip spread is significantly better than with the Halo lights.

Now the pictures......................

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

This is one bulb and the control unit.
[Linked Image]

Mark the position of the "marker".
[Linked Image]

Two holes in the cowl, with control unit behind.
[Linked Image]

Headlamp with heat sink.
[Linked Image]

Dip beam. LED on the right,
[Linked Image]

Main beam. LED on the right.
[Linked Image]








FYI, Philips is now manufacturing second generation H4 LEDs without a control box. I have no personal experience wether they fit well or not, but at least the box is not there.
From DaveW's pictures, it seems that the light pattern of the LED is more diffuse than the halogen, much less pronounced boundaries between lit and unlit area. Thus they might produce more glare. As the Wipacs are known for not-so-good optics, I would be hesitant to a LED/Wipac combination.

My path will be as follows:
1. Install Philips Racing Vision H4, somewhat more intense that Nightbreakersbut estimated life span of 180 hours (done already, mine are good so far as I mainly go with DRLs)
2. Fit relays for both headlamps, to avoid loss of voltage at the filaments.
3. Fit Cibie 180 reflectors, known to be much better optically.
4. If I am still not happy, get LEDs

As for the Norwegian equivalent of MOT (aren't MOT regulations equal for all EU? We are obligated to comply in spite of being outside), LEDs are considered road legal. You are free to fit them; PROVIDED you have automatic cleaning and levelling devices. If the car in question does not have that, sorry - no LED or even xenon. So really not on a Morgan, but of course one can be a little pragmatic and/or creative....


Robbie the Norseman
2004 V6 Roadster
Sherwood green
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665376
03/10/20 08:21 AM
03/10/20 08:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,916
Suffolk, England
John V6 Offline
Brooklands Register contact
John V6  Offline
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Posts: 23,916
Suffolk, England
I have the LED headlight bulbs without the control box. They are far better than the standard H4


JohnV6
2014 Brooklands Edition Roadster "Brookland's Belle" #5 of 50
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665377
03/10/20 08:29 AM
03/10/20 08:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,103
East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Offline
Talk Morgan Sage
RichardV6  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,103
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Dedicated LED headlamps designed for the light source and using accurate projector optics for dipped beam at least, are the way to go.

I would question your need for the electrical complexity of a relay for the headlamp circuit Robbie, given the substantially lower current draw of the LED light source. Generally with electrics KISS rules.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - Morton
1966 Land Rover S2a 88 - Lenny
1945 Moto Guzzi Airone
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: RichardV6] #665389
03/10/20 09:46 AM
03/10/20 09:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 469
Bergen, Norway
R
Robbie Mathisen Offline
Learner Plates Off!
Robbie Mathisen  Offline
Learner Plates Off!
R

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 469
Bergen, Norway
Originally Posted by Richard Wood
Dedicated LED headlamps designed for the light source and using accurate projector optics for dipped beam at least, are the way to go.

I would question your need for the electrical complexity of a relay for the headlamp circuit Robbie, given the substantially lower current draw of the LED light source. Generally with electrics KISS rules.

You have definately got a point, I have already thought about it. I think I will start with the Cibies. Another matter is wether it is really needed. With the bright nordic nights I seldom use more than DRLs, exept in tunnels. How good is good enough.....


Robbie the Norseman
2004 V6 Roadster
Sherwood green
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665391
03/10/20 09:54 AM
03/10/20 09:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,826
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline OP
Roadster Guru
DaveW  Offline OP
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,826
South Yorkshire
Don't take too much from the headlamp glare in those pictures, because the camera doesn't show up the definition.

The Cibie units on my Plus 4 provide the sharpest dipped beam cut off. The Wipacs now on my Roadster are not quite so good as the Cibies, but more defined than the Halo units.


DaveW
'05 Red Roadster S1
'16 Yellow (Not the only) Narrow AR GDI Plus 4
Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665437
03/10/20 02:20 PM
03/10/20 02:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,318
L
Luddite Offline
Talk Morgan Addict
Luddite  Offline
Talk Morgan Addict
L

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,318
Not that I have any intention to fit LEDs, just curious if there was info on beam alteration for "foreign" trips, as per the adhesive patches we used to stick on our headlights for foreign holidays etc..?

Re: Workshop Note: LED Headlamps [Re: DaveW] #665441
03/10/20 02:36 PM
03/10/20 02:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,916
Suffolk, England
John V6 Offline
Brooklands Register contact
John V6  Offline
Brooklands Register contact
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,916
Suffolk, England
I have used the adhesive patches on standard bowls with LED lights. The LED bulbs can also be rotated in the standard H4
fitment


JohnV6
2014 Brooklands Edition Roadster "Brookland's Belle" #5 of 50
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