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Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Luddite] #609260
21/12/19 06:05 PM
21/12/19 06:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Heinz  Offline OP
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Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Originally Posted by Luddite
Heinz, I am pleased that you found the cause creating the change in feel as you rotated the steering wheel, and seemingly identified it as the result of a universal joint that for some reason is out of alignment, and which you can hopefully rectify. I would be far less than happy with any universal joint adding anything to the feel of the steering, be that by adding play when worn, or resistance to turning either due to internal corrosion, misalignment, or being used outside it`s design parameters..

As you have determined there is now no play in the steering, I am unsure if that may be ideal in a road car, where the slightest driver input to the steering wheel could create an alteration in direction, thinking perhaps s a sneeze or body movement caused by hitting a pot hole etc...?

As I understood Lorne, this kind of steering is not supposed to have play in the design, Luddite. Something very different are recirculating ball steering systems like in an old Mercedes. They always have some play in the center.


With no play whatsoever in the steering I suspect it may require constant correction..? If you consider a similar input to the system can also come from from the road surface given the many influences found on it...camber changes, repairs, puddles, etc. A small measure of play felt at the steering wheel may enhance the feel of the steering, and perhaps require slightly less corrective input...?

If the toe-in is correct, the car should pull itself straight ahead. And this is also the case with my car. But so that the steering is not too nervous and does not follow all the influences of the road, I would like to increase the pressure between pinion and rack very slightly. Then the steering becomes calmer and is still light enough, especially to move back on its own.

The play I mentioned can relate directly to the feel of the steering system, and the only play likely to be found should be at the interface of the rack to pinion gear teeth, If your pinion to rack adjustment has too much pressure in it caused by over adjustment, the steering will feel tight and require constant correction while driving and rob the driver of the ability of the steering system to self centre / return to straight ahead after turning a corner...

This was exactly the case before I started the whole investigation and the car had not passed any MOT at first. Only I had gotten too used to the too stiff steering during the whole time. Self centering was working but all was too stiff. And only because of this circumstances the MOT inspector noticed too much forces needed because the U joint issue came on top and added the peak points resistance.

I can well understand that on a race car that zero play maximises the very direct feel in the steering system which may be an ideal , perhaps less so on the road, and in a car with vintage suspension design...?

Increasing play in steering (under adjustment) can also equate to wear found in other components within the system which generally can be detected by the driver at the steering wheel. In the case of my Morgan more than the 7mm or so measured at the outside of the rim of the steering wheel would alter the feel, the more that play increases the more urgent it is to look for the problem causing the increasing play, which similar to an overly stiff steering will require more driver input to keep on course...?

IcePac`s suggestion on the loose feel that may be experienced at the steering wheel if even slight toe out is found in the alignment, is something I have experienced on vehicles..

Thanks for posting the GoMoG link Heinz, I am a long time BIG fan of GoMoG and the huge amount of effort that Lorne the web master there has over many many years put into providing totally FREE access to a huge wealth of Morgan related data to help Morganeers maintain and repair their cars, and all devoid of advertising.. I suspect there is many a Morganeer who would perhaps grudgingly be forced to admit the answer to resolving their issues was found on GoMoG...?

I think Gomog is a very helpful site! Unfortunately, it is a pity that the relationship to TM is obviously not very close, for reasons that do not have to interest me.


I do hope your steering FEEL can be adjusted to match your requirements of it.

I am on a good path and I am very confident. Maybe I have to find a source where I can buy such a cardan shaft with the right dimension
s of everything[/color]



Good luck Heinz
Thank you very much for your kind and eloquent input, Luddite smile thumbs

.



'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609282
21/12/19 09:58 PM
21/12/19 09:58 PM
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Heinz, thank you for your very kind comments. I am no expert, thus I am only sharing my thinking and am ever open to an alternative line of thought, I come here to learn.

Interesting that you determine recirculating ball systems as in Merc`s have a degree of play in the straight ahead (central) steering position... which I might expect for the reasons I stated.

In worm and peg steering boxes and rack and pinion, when badly worn the wear ever occurs up to a few degrees either side of the straight ahead position as measured at the steering wheel. The reason for the wear in that particular area is that as we drive we are continually operating the steering system in that small area... Again increasing play shows up at the steering wheel and can be measured as I suggested.

If attempting to adjust any excess play out of the system in the central position caused by wear, and in the hope of returning it to match the original feel, once the adjustment has been made in the central position.... on turning the steering wheel towards lock in either direction, the steering will become tight indicating that the wear can not be adjusted out, without introducing further issues..

With no wear in the system the feel should be the same from lock to lock.

The spring loaded pad in the rack and pinion system would seem capable of compensating for differences in mesh across the range of the rack as the result of a degree of engineering tollerances, and to some degree for a small degree of wear. I also suspect the spring loaded pad can provide a degree of shock absorption in the system..?

I too have zero interest in personality clashes, unfortunately in the early years of the web without emojis, it was all to easy to misjudge meaning which seemed to happen all too often in discussion groups of all kinds creating issues..a great pity.

Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #609293
22/12/19 12:10 AM
22/12/19 12:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
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Seattle, USA
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"I too have zero interest in personality clashes, unfortunately in the early years of the web without emojis, it was all to easy to misjudge meaning which seemed to happen all too often in discussion groups of all kinds creating issues..a great pity."

I agree with Luddite. I was involved in the same discussion group. I now take great care what I write and how I express myself. Even then I often make a mess of it. But it is too bad as I often do not take part in an interesting debate for fear of being misunderstood.


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Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #613574
22/01/20 04:13 PM
22/01/20 04:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Heinz  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Small update.

As reported, we had made the Quaife steering smoother. But it remains with the resistance peaks every half turn. I had identified exactly the cardan shaft between the steering and the first point of deflection in the wheel housing as the culprit. It went a bit up and down when turning at the wheels in the air. All other shafts are smooth.

In the meantime this shaft was tested by a highly recommended specialist company in Cologne. Really great service, I am just a satisfied customer. There everything is individually rebuilt or repaired what you need.

https://www.elbe-gmbh.de/gelenkwellen/oldtimer/

The result: This cardan shaft is absolutely ok. Straight and without bend, with centered welded joints, bearings as good as new.

Only one thing was suspect to the expert. The alignment of the joints on both sides of the connecting rod are not in the same direction. But in his opinion they should be. They are offset at an angle of about 130 degrees to each other (in my memory, I'm on a long-distance train)
The expert says that sometimes this is done to balance forces at strong redirection. For example, the steering of the Mercedes G model he said, has a 75 degree offset at one of the shaft joints to run smoothly.

This results in two questions:

1) Are the joints on both sides of this Morgan shaft deliberately mounted in a twisted position? (The one end with the screw connection has a forced guidance. But the other end is pressed on and might be pressed on incorrectly and might have to be straight with the opposite joint? But I don't want to test this and therefore damage the part but I will leave the press connection undamaged.

2) If it is intentionally twisted (the relation of both joints to each other) is there a recommended alignment of the joint to the next shaft below? I can of course try it but any advice would be of great help.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #668837
25/10/20 05:15 AM
25/10/20 05:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 784
Lancashire
RobCol Offline
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Hi Heinz

Uneven steering feel as you describe was mentioned by my MOT tester last week. I had noticed it myself with the wheels off the ground but it isn't really noticeable when driving the car. The car passed the MOT without it being an advisory.

I can live with it so if its normal its not really a problem, but seem to recall that both top & bottom UJs have to be connected in a certain way. Were the UJ's alignment part of your problem and did you ever completely cure your uneven steering feel?



Rob

4/4 Sport Grey

Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #668992
25/10/20 05:19 PM
25/10/20 05:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Hi Rob, I think this thread could be of some help.
http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/615088/finally-i-have-a-smooth-steering#Post615088

If you have any further questions, I will gladly try to answer them.

BTW, I have left all with original parts as it works fine in my case, but alternatively I have learned that Cain at Wolf Performance offers his own U joints and a very good alignment at the first joint after the steering rack, just in case. I have no relationship with WP, I am just a happy customer.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #669370
27/10/20 05:27 PM
27/10/20 05:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
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Lancashire
RobCol Offline
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Lancashire

Thanks Heinz

Did you realign the UJ forks yourself and if so is it just a matter of disconnecting the UJ under the bonnet and aligning the UJ forks with the UJ under the dashboard and then taking the steering wheel boss off and refitting the steering wheel so the steering wheel spokes are level?


Rob

4/4 Sport Grey

Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #669378
27/10/20 05:53 PM
27/10/20 05:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Köln Germany
Rob, I did it exactly the way you describe it. Of course you first may have a look if this topic is the culprit before you disconnect the U joint under the bonnet. You can see the most upper U joint when removing the lower half of the shroud. Let us know if this was the issue. Also have a look at the very first U joint just following the steering rack. When I remember it right this was also possible to be disconnected, just in case it should not be properly aligned.

Last edited by Heinz; 27/10/20 06:14 PM.

'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #669620
28/10/20 09:59 PM
28/10/20 09:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
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Lancashire
RobCol Offline
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Originally Posted by Heinz
Hi Rob, I think this thread could be of some help.
http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/615088/finally-i-have-a-smooth-steering#Post615088

If you have any further questions, I will gladly try to answer them.


Hi Heinz


Just a couple of questions.

On your photos in the link above of the UJ under the Steering wheel and UJ next to the bulkhead, are the photos after you had corrected / realigned the UJ's?

I understand that all 4 UJ's have to be aligned in line + + + + . I also understand the UJ under the steering wheel should be horizontal in the + position so the wheel can be adjusted up and down without stress. So am I right in thinking that it doesn't matter which UJ you start realigning as long as they are all horizontal + + + + ?

On my car from the steering wheel it is + + x x so its the last 2 that may need realigning?


Rob

4/4 Sport Grey

Re: Uneven steering feel [Re: Heinz] #669639
29/10/20 12:08 AM
29/10/20 12:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Heinz  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,886
Köln Germany
Rob, first of all, apologize for my awkward and edgy English. Especially when it comes to mechanical descriptions...even if I use in such cases the help of www.deepl.com. A help but not always delivering the final text I put in.
The summary first, after I wrote everything below. All U joints must be in the same alignment. The starting position to the steering wheel is "in principle" not important. Note: the second rod after the steering wheel which we can see under the bonnet is a three-dimensional special case, more on this below.

My two photos of the first two rods with their U joints, which you mentioned, should show how it is put together correctly. Let me put it this way. Each U Joint connection must be such that the input on one side and the output on the other side must match in orientation. So about like this:
-–|–––––––|—
At least in principle it doesn't really matter in which position the first U joint is at the beginning of the steering wheel. Imagine it like this: If it was important that the first U joint is horizontal to the steering wheel, then it would be a thought that it might be harder to put the steering wheel up and down if you turn the steering wheel by 45 degrees. But even then you have to be able to put it up and down just as easily...not only when you turn it straight. In everyday life, you wouldn't think twice about adjusting the height of the steering wheel in any position. The only important thing is that the U Joints are correct in themselves.

The second rod, which is directly connected to the first rod coming from the steering wheel in the engine compartment, is a special feature. It is a three-dimensional configuration as you can see in your link of my post in the third schematic blue picture.That's why in this case the U joints are fixed at both ends and can't be changed in the odd alignment. In other words, here the U joints are twisted in themselves and that must be the case. But afterwards downstream to the rack everything has to be put together again in a straight alignment, like at the beginning, because there are again only two-dimensional joints.

I did not really understand your symbols with the + and x. I suppose + means horizontal and x means vertical? It is important that every entrance (the first link) and every exit (the last link) are in the same plane. Consequently, the two inner links are offset 90 degrees to the outer links, but also in one plane to each other. (except for the second fixed and twisted special rod).

Now comes some fine tuning. Even though all the rods/U joints are finally in tune, the Morgan steering is not quite even (but much better than with wrong connection angles).
So it makes sense to try out that any resistance is distributed symmetrically when you turn the steering wheel to the left or right. For example at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock resistance is better than at 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock. But this does not mean urgently, that the first U joint upstream is horizontally to the straight orientated steering wheel. It may be but it must not.
So if all U joints are correct, you can align the whole connection by turning it after disconnecting the whole thing at the top of the steering wheel and at the bottom of the rack and pinion steering in a way that any irregularities are distributed symmetrically. This is a bit of a try and error.

To your question, regardless which u joint is wrong aligned it needs a realigning. If none of this should help yet, contact Cain at Wolf Performance. He has a higher quality U joint in his program for the last connection to the rack and pinion steering downstream. I don't have it yet, but I could perhaps buy and replace it to make everything even smoother...the last 10%.



'14 4/4 graphite grey
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