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Re: Morgan GTR [Re: +8Rich] #689588
18/02/21 11:19 PM
18/02/21 11:19 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7,849
Llanelli
sospan Online happy
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sospan  Online Happy
Talk Morgan Guru

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7,849
Llanelli
So a “continuation” series of £££££ cars using existing chassis found somewhere and a shame to waste. Nothing wrong with that as it puts money into the coffers. Here’s the buggeration though, devalues other limited/last of the type cars?
Yes, sir, we are limiting the production to 50 cars as they will then be rarer. No more will be made, your investment is safe!
OK, maybe not strictly the case here but I remember a fuss when lightweight e-type chassis were found and built to original spec. Didn’t Lord March not want them at Goodwood as they were new with no history?

Anyway they look interesting. Aggressive. They look fast just parked there. Good publicity plus a swansong for internal combustion top end Morgans?


Red Plus8
Re: Morgan GTR [Re: MR11MOG] #689590
19/02/21 12:01 AM
19/02/21 12:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,096
Devonshire
+8Rich Offline OP
Member of the Inner Circle
+8Rich  Offline OP
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,096
Devonshire
Originally Posted by MR11MOG
Plus 8 Anniversary on sale at Sytner for £85000 . Now bought by Hartley Jnr On sale at £119,000 .. now that’s a mark up .

There are two advertised on Autotrader one with Syntner and the other with Hartley but with differing mileages and prices, it would appear that they are two different vehicles the difference is in the order of 2,000 miles. Plus 8 search

The Hartley one the Radiator grille "8" is offset to the left.. It's number 1 of 50 so they possibly think it more valuable.

As today they just found another nine V8 chassis that's kind of devalued the last 50 a wee bit in the real world..

I fail to believe it is pure coincidence that these 2 of 50 "last" Anniversary models have appeared on the market by chance, these dealers have been hedging their bets to turn a profit when the market is right and that vaporised overnight.

The MMC announcement today has made them realise that the value of these will drop with the extra nine appearing on the market and as Dennis was aware of the move a month ago so these dealers may well have been aware.

I'm sure the Italian masters will be pleased with the extra income, not so pleasing for their loyal 50th Anniversary purchasers that bought them in good faith that they really were the last of the line.

I don't have a vested interest in Syntner, Hartley or MMC just stating the situation as I see it.


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green prev
1994 Connaught Green +8 prev





Re: Morgan GTR [Re: +8Rich] #689599
19/02/21 07:07 AM
19/02/21 07:07 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 133
J
John Winn Offline
L - Learner Plates On
John Winn  Offline
L - Learner Plates On
J

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 133
The Sytner car has 2 Petrol Filler caps obviously not a standard fitment, I assume the previous owner did not like the usual slow filling problem.

Re: Morgan GTR [Re: SimonH] #689613
19/02/21 09:15 AM
19/02/21 09:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,384
C
cerealsurfer Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
cerealsurfer  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
C

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,384
Originally Posted by SimonH
Originally Posted by cerealsurfer
So a good fantasy thread would be... if you were doing the GTR - how would you do it?


Well if we’re stuck with using the S5 Aero chassis, then it’s a bit floppy forward of the bulkhead

A sheer plate/undertray under the engine bay (Chris L did I have a clue what he was doing with the S1) and a tubular cruciform over the engine would help...
And a roll cage tying the front suspension inputs to the rear suspension would help tremendously and stop the whole feeling like two halves...

It doesn’t need more power
Some design detail taking weight out could save circa 50 kilos for negligible production cost

The wing vents in the sketches are leaning in the right direction, but there’s none in the rear arches to prevent drag there....


I’d want a better wiper motor than a 1950’s Land Rover so at least I could see where I was heading away from backwards in the wet.... scared

More feel through the steering

And bin the standard exhaust manifolds and system- they’re completely strangling the engine....


How about.. take a blank chassis... mill up an approx 50x50cm mounting plate to attach to the bulkhead - tap and die the back end of a dry-sumped S62 motor (for endurance reliability... not just for its extra hp) and attach.. harad mounting the engine to the bulkhead - result is moving it back and down. Move back engine mounts accordingly and build a spider frame to mount front of motor to forward chassis arms.

Use a small fly and clutch pack. Short input shaft Drenth D400 or Hewland H or SGT and hard mount to the rear of the bulkhead plate. Flat floor engine bay (I thought the removal of that from the S1 was a retrograde step).

As for manifolds... in this set-up... from the exhaust ports, run long primaries forward 4-1 style into a vertically mounted cross over collector at the front of the motor.. then back down the LHS into the Left/NS wing. Ceramic coating from the primaries back

Run a Motec M190/M880 (or similar) with digital dash and run a solid state programmable PDU with all the switches built in.

Make suitable horizontal baffles to mount to the inner bonnet to split the heat zones... run the air intake to the base of the windscreen... I've always seen forward facing intakes on the Aero chassis being squashed over the top of the radiator in the small gap below the cowl. seems odd.

As for the body work... agree.. a few more vents would be handy.... one area learned from the SuperSport GT racers was the height of the roof and angle of the windscreen... it would be great to lower the drivers seat as much as possible and attempt an increase in windscreen rake whilst also lowering the overall roof line by a couple of inches.

On the rear diff... get a cooler in place on it and also site a cooler for the gearbox.

The diffuser could also extend slightly more... even on a road car you are allowed upto 100mm protrusion from recollection......and what about the rear wing!

I recall the earlier wishbones needed plate welding to stop them flexing under race conditions... obvs all that would need to be looked into..... ideally given its a GTR... carbon ceramics on the braking side of things. Centre lock and mag wheels.

Totally agree on the cage and also the addition of air-jacks on the front and rear bulkhead anchor plates.



In my more radical moments I have even thought about adding 6x3 inch ducts from the front of the inner wheel arch area through to the slope behind the wheel (but on the inside near the bonnet).... the intention it to help with the slab front of the front bodywork and also re-purpose the apex of the wing parabola as a dive plane.. so adding front end downforce rather than the lift it currently creates.





Re: Morgan GTR [Re: cerealsurfer] #689621
19/02/21 09:52 AM
19/02/21 09:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,078
SimonH Offline
Has a lot to Say!
SimonH  Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,078
Originally Posted by cerealsurfer
Originally Posted by SimonH
Originally Posted by cerealsurfer
So a good fantasy thread would be... if you were doing the GTR - how would you do it?


Well if we’re stuck with using the S5 Aero chassis, then it’s a bit floppy forward of the bulkhead

A sheer plate/undertray under the engine bay (Chris L did I have a clue what he was doing with the S1) and a tubular cruciform over the engine would help...
And a roll cage tying the front suspension inputs to the rear suspension would help tremendously and stop the whole feeling like two halves...

It doesn’t need more power
Some design detail taking weight out could save circa 50 kilos for negligible production cost

The wing vents in the sketches are leaning in the right direction, but there’s none in the rear arches to prevent drag there....


I’d want a better wiper motor than a 1950’s Land Rover so at least I could see where I was heading away from backwards in the wet.... scared

More feel through the steering

And bin the standard exhaust manifolds and system- they’re completely strangling the engine....


How about.. take a blank chassis... mill up an approx 50x50cm mounting plate to attach to the bulkhead - tap and die the back end of a dry-sumped S62 motor (for endurance reliability... not just for its extra hp) and attach.. harad mounting the engine to the bulkhead - result is moving it back and down. Move back engine mounts accordingly and build a spider frame to mount front of motor to forward chassis arms.

Use a small fly and clutch pack. Short input shaft Drenth D400 or Hewland H or SGT and hard mount to the rear of the bulkhead plate. Flat floor engine bay (I thought the removal of that from the S1 was a retrograde step).

As for manifolds... in this set-up... from the exhaust ports, run long primaries forward 4-1 style into a vertically mounted cross over collector at the front of the motor.. then back down the LHS into the Left/NS wing. Ceramic coating from the primaries back

Run a Motec M190/M880 (or similar) with digital dash and run a solid state programmable PDU with all the switches built in.

Make suitable horizontal baffles to mount to the inner bonnet to split the heat zones... run the air intake to the base of the windscreen... I've always seen forward facing intakes on the Aero chassis being squashed over the top of the radiator in the small gap below the cowl. seems odd.

As for the body work... agree.. a few more vents would be handy.... one area learned from the SuperSport GT racers was the height of the roof and angle of the windscreen... it would be great to lower the drivers seat as much as possible and attempt an increase in windscreen rake whilst also lowering the overall roof line by a couple of inches.

On the rear diff... get a cooler in place on it and also site a cooler for the gearbox.

The diffuser could also extend slightly more... even on a road car you are allowed upto 100mm protrusion from recollection......and what about the rear wing!

I recall the earlier wishbones needed plate welding to stop them flexing under race conditions... obvs all that would need to be looked into..... ideally given its a GTR... carbon ceramics on the braking side of things. Centre lock and mag wheels.

Totally agree on the cage and also the addition of air-jacks on the front and rear bulkhead anchor plates.



In my more radical moments I have even thought about adding 6x3 inch ducts from the front of the inner wheel arch area through to the slope behind the wheel (but on the inside near the bonnet).... the intention it to help with the slab front of the front bodywork and also re-purpose the apex of the wing parabola as a dive plane.. so adding front end downforce rather than the lift it currently creates.










Essentially make it into a Panoz then.....


Simon @ Sifab.co.uk

Sifabtemporary@gmail.com
Re: Morgan GTR [Re: John Winn] #689622
19/02/21 09:54 AM
19/02/21 09:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,096
Devonshire
+8Rich Offline OP
Member of the Inner Circle
+8Rich  Offline OP
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,096
Devonshire
Originally Posted by John Winn
The Sytner car has 2 Petrol Filler caps obviously not a standard fitment, I assume the previous owner did not like the usual slow filling problem.

I like the symmetry of that with the bare plate it adds detail to it, and at least that one has been filled up a couple of times wink


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green prev
1994 Connaught Green +8 prev





Re: Morgan GTR [Re: SimonH] #689627
19/02/21 10:04 AM
19/02/21 10:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,384
C
cerealsurfer Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
cerealsurfer  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
C

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,384
[
Originally Posted by SimonH


Essentially make it into a Panoz then.....


Sort of... but keeping the very top of the wing section in place as a dive plane.... rather than the Panoz GTR1 doing away with them completely.





Re: Morgan GTR [Re: SimonH] #689628
19/02/21 10:12 AM
19/02/21 10:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 913
TheCustomer Offline
Talk Morgan Regular
TheCustomer  Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 913
Originally Posted by SimonH
Originally Posted by cerealsurfer
So a good fantasy thread would be... if you were doing the GTR - how would you do it?


Well if we’re stuck with using the S5 Aero chassis, then it’s a bit floppy forward of the bulkhead

A sheer plate/undertray under the engine bay (Chris L did I have a clue what he was doing with the S1) and a tubular cruciform over the engine would help...
And a roll cage tying the front suspension inputs to the rear suspension would help tremendously and stop the whole feeling like two halves...
[]
I’d want a better wiper motor than a 1950’s Land Rover so at least I could see where I was heading away from backwards in the wet.... scared

More feel through the steering

And bin the standard exhaust manifolds and system- they’re completely strangling the engine....


Ah, of course, you noticed that the Bristol cars are Aero chassis, and Morgan describes the car as an Aero Plus 8 - I guess they're taking a hacksaw to the rear end to get the trad shape.

Go on then, how much of that list can be retro-fitted to an S5 Aero? :-)
And how much of it would make a useful improvement in a road car?

SSL's suspension helps make the car feel like the front & rear are working together - and I guess stiffening the chassis can only help the suspension work even better.

A c21 wiper motor sounds like a straightforward swap?

What would you do to put more feel through the steering?
I think it's about OK for road use, and I'm always up for more feedback...

& would these non-standard manifolds still be road legal?!

Will


Aero 8 S5
BMW i8 Coupe
Triumph Stag '72
Re: Morgan GTR [Re: +8Rich] #689643
19/02/21 10:43 AM
19/02/21 10:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 8,408
Hampshire
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
Alistair  Offline
Smile, it confuses them
Talk Morgan Guru

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 8,408
Hampshire
Well the engine is likely to be limited by the emissions and selling it as new issue. Sports cats and exhaust obligatory.

I cannot see (but would like to if they are going to use that title) a real power change which is the whole point for me. Given the current noise around Plus Six's that self park in an unplanned manner, if bolt a supercharger on these cars it could provide a spectacular moment given the V8 can make it lively already.

Add the suspension upgrade kit a few from the site have already proven is great for balancing the car out.

Lighten, Carbon wings and things?

Manual gearbox and lowered back axle ratio for a bit of in-gear zing.

Tillet seats and a roll hoop.

A bit of steampunk brass and slightly beyond distressed leather. Almost bare aluminium interior (might have a heat issue)

As mentioned by others, don't lower it unless you dry sump it!

Stack digital dash

Dual sidepipes


Just time to burn a little more petrol before dinner.
Re: Morgan GTR [Re: +8Rich] #689673
19/02/21 12:38 PM
19/02/21 12:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,096
Devonshire
+8Rich Offline OP
Member of the Inner Circle
+8Rich  Offline OP
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,096
Devonshire
Originally Posted by +8Rich
Originally Posted by MR11MOG
Plus 8 Anniversary on sale at Sytner for £85000 . Now bought by Hartley Jnr On sale at £119,000 .. now that’s a mark up .

There are two advertised on Autotrader one with Syntner and the other with Hartley but with differing mileages and prices, it would appear that they are two different vehicles the difference is in the order of 2,000 miles. Plus 8 search

The Hartley one the Radiator grille "8" is offset to the left.. It's number 1 of 50 so they possibly think it more valuable.

As today they just found another nine V8 chassis that's kind of devalued the last 50 a wee bit in the real world..

I fail to believe it is pure coincidence that these 2 of 50 "last" Anniversary models have appeared on the market by chance, these dealers have been hedging their bets to turn a profit when the market is right and that vaporised overnight.

The MMC announcement today has made them realise that the value of these will drop with the extra nine appearing on the market and as Dennis was aware of the move a month ago so these dealers may well have been aware.

I'm sure the Italian masters will be pleased with the extra income, not so pleasing for their loyal 50th Anniversary purchasers that bought them in good faith that they really were the last of the line.

I don't have a vested interest in Syntner, Hartley or MMC just stating the situation as I see it.


I do love the colour of these cars.


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green prev
1994 Connaught Green +8 prev





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