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Re: Jaguar car brand to be all electric by 2025 [Re: Fuel.inj] #689163
16/02/21 09:55 PM
16/02/21 09:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,899
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline
Charter Member
Heinz  Offline
Charter Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,899
Köln Germany
Porsche only cares about itself, classic cars and modern gasoline engines with synthetic fuels.
But the principle could set a precedent. Perhaps the energy balance is not so important if, for example, a new generation of safe nuclear power plants that do not produce residues provide the energy. It is climate neutral and one could produce synthetic fuels or hydrogen in this way. Maybe in 50 years fusion power plants that do not emit dangerous radiation will work. Then it doesn't matter how good the energy yield is if clean mobility is ensured on the other side.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Jaguar car brand to be all electric by 2025 [Re: Fuel.inj] #689201
17/02/21 09:46 AM
17/02/21 09:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 157
Nr Watership Down UK
J
JMD Offline
L - Learner Plates On
JMD  Offline
L - Learner Plates On
J

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 157
Nr Watership Down UK
Jaguar have failed for the last couple of decades by trying to be BMW or Audi and never getting the scale...the UK motoring press have been generally supportive but sales have not followed and consequently the products have been under-developed. This move is bold/interesting but probably 5 years too late.

Re: Jaguar car brand to be all electric by 2025 [Re: JMD] #689857
20/02/21 11:54 AM
20/02/21 11:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 753
Madrid, Spain
Marmota Offline
Talk Morgan Regular
Marmota  Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 753
Madrid, Spain
Originally Posted by JMD
Jaguar have failed for the last couple of decades by trying to be BMW or Audi and never getting the scale...the UK motoring press have been generally supportive but sales have not followed and consequently the products have been under-developed. This move is bold/interesting but probably 5 years too late.



Sorry to disagree. Since acquired by Tata, the cars were a step beyond the German competition. Now the gap is no more so big, but JLR products are not behind the Germans.

But at the beginning there was a huge difference. I purchased a new XJ in 2010, after obviously testing the S-Class, the 7 series and the A8. And no color… the Jag was 400kg lighter than any of them thanks to its aluminum monocoque (still the Germans don’t work with full aluminum platforms and body as Jaguar does) and its diesel engine developed 275 hp, this was 25 hp more than any of the others. My XJ was much lighter and with more power was faster than any of the Germans. Even more than the Panamera with the 250 hp diesel engine. And on the top of that more economic to run. And cheaper.

When the German pushed up the power of their engines, Jaguar did it too, rising to 300 hp the 3.0 V6 diesel, again a step beyond them and still on their lighter cars (significantly lighter in the big saloons and SUVs, not so much for the small XE sallon and SUVs such as the Evoque and the E-Pace, these last two SUVs being the only ones not having a real full aluminium monocoque amongst the entire JLR family).

And since 2010 with this XJ, the central screen was way bigger and touchscreen as standard (only now the Germans start to include a central touchscreen but not always as standard, while Jaguar does since 2010 in all his models). Also the main driver screen was a TFT screen in the XJ. Something that none of the Germans got even as an option (just the S-Class and partially if you included at a silly price the infrared night vision). They're now, 11 years later, stating to implement optional TFT driver's screens.

Then JLR developed the Ingenium engines, claimed to be amongst the 10 best engines in the market. And now new 3.0 straight 6 diesel and petrol, with power again above the competition.

So, I can’t disagree more about the term “under-developed”. Sorry (again) to disagree. They're still not at the volume sales of the Germans, sure.... but they have in the last decade multiplied by 5 their sales. Which other brand can say so?

Last edited by Marmota; 20/02/21 11:55 AM.

Javier - Madrid, Spain - Commander of Speedy Marmots Bomb Squadron
www.speedymarmots.com
Re: Jaguar car brand to be all electric by 2025 [Re: Fuel.inj] #689923
20/02/21 04:01 PM
20/02/21 04:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 8,428
Hampshire
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
Alistair  Offline
Smile, it confuses them
Talk Morgan Guru

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 8,428
Hampshire
Javier.

I agree re the level of the chassis engineering, the XJ remains a nicer car to drive than many much newer models from other vendors. I test drove the XJ with the 3.0D years back and it was far sweeter than it's size would lead you to believe it could be.

But as a company they still have some painful gaps. Worse their sales figures announced for 2019 and 2020 (admittedly odd years) show that they have collapsed almost back to the 100,000 car mark that they were when Tata came into play and the X-Type was a spectacular error. As much as I like the XE I think history will once again look back and show it was an error like the X before it.

The market has changed and the car was not exciting or value enough. Volvo and Skoda have all made a niche where Jaguar might have been with the XE and E SUV. I wish they had been brave and gone for Porsches market given the chassis skills that they have. Jag XJ - Panamera/Estate, F-Type (slightly better spec'd) - 911. A sub F-type against the Cayman.

Your mention of the in car entertainment. The last ten years have not seen great improvements in this until very recently. Even then I would have to say it has just caught up with the very recent cars (Defender PIVO unit etc) rather than done something special. I put this in context with the other premium brands it is usually compared to not general context.

Other issues were some of the materials unless you paid (a lot) for the leather upgrades and extended leather packs. I had a friend with the V6 F-Type and the interior of his car almost fell off within the 30k over 2 years he ran it. The engine light was on for 7 months because the dealer could got work out what the issue was and just reset it and gave him a series of b__ls__t answers.

This is a great loss as their interior design has long been among (if not) the best to my eyes. The current gen RR interior is beautiful. My ML63 is totally loaded and has all the leather upgrades but still looks like a leather coal pit compared to an RR.

Given the writing has been on the wall for some time about the emissions standards you have to ask why they released the iPace but took forever to equip the rest of the fleet with PHEV 48v solutions to avoid the problems. I love the iPace and am sad it has not done better but in truth the better value would have been on the 48v PHEV side.

New Discovery and Velar alongside RR, RRS, F-Pace, DiscoSport seems a bit dumb and then to add the Defender?
Easy to criticise I guess but how about if they had

Retained the RR and gone more upmarket after the Bentugly.
Made the Velar the RRS replacement, it is more sporty and lowered after all.
Just maintained the old Disco for a little longer and accelerated the Defender as this is a more natural migration in truth?
Not bothered with chasing volume with the Jag XE and made a better smaller sports car with higher margins (SLK market)
Bought out a further upmarket F-type replacement, bigger money - bigger margins

Put the money from the other developments into PHEV earlier.
Pulled the XF/XJ replacement in earlier and replaced them with a single model like the MB CLS and Shooting Break?

Why go toe to toe with the big premium brands given your heritage is agile, delightful handling and smooth refinement. I think the 5 series and E Class are a bit soft these days.
They also need to sort out the leasing as they have never been competitive and this is a BIG area of the market decision these days.

I think they have a great design and engineering but perhaps this was allowed to overpower some of the more serious considerations over the last seven-ten years?

Just saying they are going all Leccy is like saying "we are still going to be making cars" but which cars and will they be class leading.


Just time to burn a little more petrol before dinner.
Re: Jaguar car brand to be all electric by 2025 [Re: Fuel.inj] #690091
21/02/21 01:34 PM
21/02/21 01:34 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,209
Oxon
PaulV Offline
Has a lot to Say!
PaulV  Offline
Has a lot to Say!

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,209
Oxon
Its great to hear Javier's great experiences with JLR. Being British we like to downplay the local team more than we should, I suspect.

I'm also an armchair product manager (well, as far as the car industry is concerned anyway!) and my thoughts are similar to Alistair's:
- XE not differentiated enough from XF; could have been a lead-in model like the A3, 1/2-series and A-series.
- E-Pace a cynical 3rd repackaging of Freelander internals (competing with the Evoque and Disco Sport) - but why? No real USP?
- F-Pace vs Velar - again why compete with yourselves? Reliving the BL badge engineering policy?
- Slow to hybrids and PHEVs... I'm amazed they are not in-tune with even UK policy. If they wanted to shift some XE's then producing a competitive PHEV version instead of pushing petrol and diesel versions would surely make an impression on the fleet market, for example?
- Defender nice as a supersized Yeti, but expensive to run and heavy. Not exactly something to attract the Greta eco brigade, making it niche in the 2020s (great fun to spec out on their configuration web site).
- i-Pace appears a one-off.


M3W5sp 2015, MSCC, MTWC, Oxon UK
Re: Jaguar car brand to be all electric by 2025 [Re: Fuel.inj] #690161
21/02/21 06:30 PM
21/02/21 06:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 753
Madrid, Spain
Marmota Offline
Talk Morgan Regular
Marmota  Offline
Talk Morgan Regular

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 753
Madrid, Spain
I got the XJ for 5 years. Impressive. Still in love with that car... But I changed it for practical reasons for the F-Pace. The interior of the F-Pace is basically the same of the XE. Despite it's supposed to be the SUV equivalent to the XF. I was a little bit disappointed by this fact. But still amazed by the massive torque and power of its 3.0 V6 diesel engine. The torque is 700 Nm, something stratospheric. I pull the trailer with the 3-Wheeler in it and really don't feel a difference in normal driving. It pulls like a beast.

And in none of the two Jags I ever had a single problem. Neither mechanical nor electronic. Neat cars with zero problems. The New F-Pace is more beautiful. I love it and wouldn't hesitate to change mine for the refreshed model with its 6 in-line cylinders.

But traveling a lot as I do (not so much this last year for obvious reasons) I try all new fresh models from BMW, Mercedes and Audi while I rent cars.And I got a new BMW 3-series three weeks ago in a trip to France. And I have to admit that the new infotainment system is finally as good if not better that the one I have in my 2016 F-Pace. Finally! Because the previous infotainment systems of these Germans, with their terrible mouse-pad-wheel-round-awful-control was truly like changing my iPhone by an old Blackberry with small screen and keyboard LOL!

Last edited by Marmota; 21/02/21 06:32 PM.

Javier - Madrid, Spain - Commander of Speedy Marmots Bomb Squadron
www.speedymarmots.com
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