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Re: Vaccination update [Re: JohnHarris] #695876
27/03/21 03:41 PM
27/03/21 03:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,951
South Yorks
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Posts: 3,951
South Yorks
Originally Posted by JohnHarris
I do wonder whether the Covid vaccination card will be a backdoor into an UK ID card that has been touted by Governments for decades and resisted. Lets see how much information and personal details they try to capture on the card.
.

Regards

John


If it gives us a backdoor into my local Wetherspoons im’ not bothered - and there won’t be any students for a while clogging the bar up while they get their green potions mixed up in the fish bowl.


2017 Ravenblau Blue Aero S5
2021 Lapis Blue Plus 6 evil You know it makes sense! thinking





Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #695877
27/03/21 03:52 PM
27/03/21 03:52 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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sospan  Offline
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
Definitely something fishy going on.
I am taking part in the ONS/Oxford Covid survey.
Monthly blood and swab tests. All Covid negative so far.
I have had jab1 of the AZ vaccine and the first blood/swab test past that date after just under 4 weeks shows a negative antibody result. swmbo had her jab1 a week after me and came back antibody positive.
I am waiting to see what happens after jab2 with test results.
So....a few things to think about.
Am I slower producing antibodies? One possibility thought to happen due to natural variation. There may just be a delay due to natural variation.
Am I in the small percentage the vaccine doesn’t work with? Will the second kick in antibody development?
Was the test a false negative?
A possibility is very low antibody production that the test can miss as mentioned in the literature.
Was the test done correctly?
I think we are lucky being part of the survey as the regular testing has thrown up my individual circumstance re no antibodies. I wonder who else is in the same situation but doesn’t know?
When asked about joining the survey it was a no-brainer to say yes for two reasons. Firstly to help with the survey and secondly to get regular testing as a bonus.
One thing that I am thinking about is how will my neg antibody result be dealt with re vaccine effectiveness both for myself and in the overall statistics picture for the management of the pandemic.
I will we watching my next test results. Next test in about 2 weeks then a few days before results.
Fingers crossed!





Last edited by sospan; 27/03/21 03:55 PM.

Red Plus8
Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #695895
27/03/21 05:13 PM
27/03/21 05:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 14,232
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 14,232
Salisbury, UK
Antibodies are not the full story.
The really important part of the immune system are the T Cells, it is only the T-cell that can cleverly sense and destroy pathogens inside infected cells using “sensors” which detect foreign protein fragments.

THIS is a link to a good explanation in the BMJ.


Peter,
Power Corrupts.....
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Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #695924
27/03/21 07:15 PM
27/03/21 07:15 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
Yes, the T cells are crucial but what is puzzling me is what is the reason for the neg antibodies result?
Inquisitive me is wondering why? I am waiting with interest on the next test results.
Being from a scientific background I am curious as to the reason(s). It is part of my natural thinking when seeing anomalies or variations from the norm.
From my days as a metallurgist....Phil, they just had to tip 150tonnes of molten steel onto the floor as it wouldn’t flow through the nozzle when they tried to cast it. Go and find out why and come up with a solution. Real head scratcher that was solved by looking at any and every avenue.
Same thinking when in quality management. Investigating anomalies and deviations from the norm, not just reporting them.
Before throwing broken things away I enjoy taking them apart to see how they work.
The antibody question might have health issues for me and influence future behaviour and lifestyle. I would like to know more. Simples, tchhhhh


Red Plus8
Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #695959
28/03/21 12:44 AM
28/03/21 12:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,409
Dorset, UK
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Dorset, UK
sospan - your antibodies are down to your system.

Everyone's body reacts differently, age being one factor, your body may simply have missed seeing the parts of the vaccine and flushed it out of your system without any reaction, if I were you I would put your concerns to your GP and maybe not take advantage of the restrictions easing for the time being.


Mark - No Longer driving
Archie the Old English Sheep Mog...........
2010 Roadster 3.0 V6 (S3) wink
Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #695999
28/03/21 09:55 AM
28/03/21 09:55 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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sospan  Offline
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
That is basically what my plan is. The second test is due soon so the result will help. Even with a positive antibody result I had no intention of overdoing the easing up on precautionary habits. It is still too soon in my view. I could be out playing golf again under tight on course rules but decided to wait a bit longer. A longer drive in the Morgan to quiet locations is on the cards however. I will DEFINITELY avoid tourist hot spots. Yesterday the A40 area round Carmarthen was full of traffic headed towards Pembrokeshire. I dread to think what Tenby was like : swear ooo
My main concern is about the vaccine effectiveness for ME so test 2 plus GP are key.


Red Plus8
Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #696054
28/03/21 01:36 PM
28/03/21 01:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 138
Berkshire UK
docock Offline
L - Learner Plates On
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 138
Berkshire UK
Don't know what antibody test the Oxford/ONS study is using. However, all test have false negative and false positive results.

If you want to check your antibodies this can be done commercially via a simple finger prick test.

The standard Roche (Anti-SARS-CoV-2 N) test only looks at antibodies from infection, so isn't of any use if looking at AB response from vaccination. If you want to know your response to vaccination, the test you need to do is the Roche (Anti-SARS-COV-2 S) test which reports antibody level in U/mL.

This is about £50 and can be ordered from here: https://www.testingforall.org/product/covid-19-immunity-tracker/

Did mine last week as I work in a V high risk environment. Nice to know I've got AB's, won't change my precautions, but does takes away some of my day to day anxiety.

Re: Vaccination update [Re: sospan] #696062
28/03/21 01:57 PM
28/03/21 01:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 96
Malvern UK
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Just Getting Started
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Just Getting Started

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 96
Malvern UK
Originally Posted by sospan
Yes, the T cells are crucial but what is puzzling me is what is the reason for the neg antibodies result?
Inquisitive me is wondering why? I am waiting with interest on the next test results.
of The antibody question might have health issues for me and influence future behaviour and lifestyle. I would like to know more. Simples, tchhhhh


There are two inter-related facets of the immune response, the so-called humoral immune response whose effector arm are antibodies produced by B lymphocytes and the cell mediated immune (CMI) response whose main effector arm are CD8 positive cytotoxic T lymphocytes usually referred to as CTLs. As has been indicated by others, the job of antibodies is to attack viruses before they enter cells of their host organism and begin replicating and the main way in which they achieve this is to bind to the invading virus particles and block their entry into susceptible host cells. By contrast the job of CTLs is to screen the surface cells for any evidence of the expression of viral protein fragments on the surface of the cell in association with class 1 Major Histocompatability Antigen (MHC) molecules (these are proteins expressed on the surface of all our cells with the exception of red blood cells and are involved in the self vs non-self recognition by the immune system and so are important in so-called graft vs host disease that is so important in organ transplantation). When a CTL detects fragments of viral proteins in the context of Class 1 MHC it triggers the release of cytolytic factors that kill the virus infected cell thereby blocking completion of the virus replication cycle and so the release and spread of progeny virus particles. Because of the involvement of MHC molecules in this recognition process CTLs cannot be used for so called passive immunisation except between identical twins whereas you will have seen reports of passive immunisation being used where convalescent sera, containing anti-viral antibodies, taken from people who have recovered from a virus infection is used to either treat those newly infected with the virus or to provide short-term (3-6 months) protection against infection and disease development. So antibodies operate to attack the virus before they enter cells of the host and start to multiply and are transferable between people whereas CTLs attack virus infected cells to block the spread of the virus within the host and are effectively restricted in their action to the person in which they generated. The other major difference between these two effector arms of the immune response lies in their speed of development and longevity. So when we are infected for the first time by a virus, a specific CTL response to that virus will develop very rapidly (just days) and their varying effectiveness in an outbred host such as humans is seen as being largely responsible for governing if and how seriously clinical disease develops following an acute infection. However, in the absence of continuing viral stimulation, the CTL response will wane away relatively quickly to background so called memory levels in 3-6 months. Consequently, historically triggering a strong CTL response has not been the focus of efforts to develop effective vaccines against a new viral pathogen, not only because the response itself has until relatively recently been much more technically demanding to measure than an antibody response to a vaccine, but also because its short duration means that any vaccine dependent on it would only give protection for a few months before re-vaccination would be needed to maintain protection.

The situation for the antibody response is more complex. First, there are different structurally and functionally classes of antibody, with three classes, IgM, IgA and IgG being involved in responding to infection. Like CTLs, development of the IgM is rapid (days) and wanes away within 3-6 months in the absence of re-stimulation. So while detection of an elevated igM response against a specific pathogen is widely used as an indication of a recent infection by said pathogen, the triggering of a strong igM response is not the focus of attention when developing new vaccines. The IgA response is slower to develop (typically 2-4 weeks) and much longer lasting (can be years) but IgA molecules are localised predominantly to what are termed mucosal surfaces ie: the gastro-intestinal tract, the respiratory tract and the uro-genital tract. Consequently, stimulating a strong IgA response has become a focus for vaccines that target viruses whose primary site of infection/replication is in mucosal tissues. Finally there is IgG, the main circulatory antibody. Like IgA it is slow to develop (2-4 weeks) to its maximum levels and is also long lasting. Because it localises to the circulatory system and has a long half-life, often years and sometimes decades in terms of providing protection from disease, it is the type of antibody that is most sought in response to vaccine based immunisation.

Turning finally to your apparent absence of an antibody response following immunisation with the AZ vaccine. Yes it may be that your serum igG levels take longer than the norm to develop. It is also that you are a non-responder to the particular vaccine formulation that you have received, for example approximately 20% of people did not give a protective antibody response to the first hepatitis B virus vaccine developed. However subsequent work on developing the vaccine formulation has reduced the level of non-responders. It is also the case that the fact that an individual responds poorly/not at all to one vaccine does not necessarily mean that they will show a similar lasck of response to other vaccines. So just because you have not as yet shown a detectable antibody response to the AZ vaccine does not mean that you should start thinking about serious changes to your lifestyle.

I hope that the above is in formative and helpful.

Stay safe.

Malcolm

smile smile

Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #696185
29/03/21 10:36 AM
29/03/21 10:36 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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sospan  Offline
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,111
Llanelli
Great response Malcolm. Excellent info.
Finding that detail, particularly on antibodies reinforces how individual responses vary and that old devil “time” is important in seeing results.
I am not overly worried by the neg antibody result hence waiting for the next test.
The varying effectiveness of different vaccines is interesting. Maybe switching types might be more effective. One query is that my neg result is known because I am included in the survey but the majority of recipients would be unaware. Would there be interested parties looking at this to get more definitive data on vaccines? Would my results be passed on so that data re the AZ could be further added to? For example, will the Oxford/ONS survey data be passed to those looking specifically at vaccine effectiveness for their benefit in vaccine development? Lastly, and more for people like me testing neg antibody development, would there be follow up?
My long term plan, irrespective of test results, is one of sensible caution anyway. My inquisitiveness from a scientific ( metals not bio) and quality management is causing me to think along the lines I am doing.
I am currently ok with waiting for further tests and definitely no overly worrying! I will query the results as and when necessary. The Oxford/ONS survey people don’t give out info on results or what to do as they are only running the survey/testing. They do indicate where more info can be sought if needed.
Interesting times!


Red Plus8
Re: Vaccination update [Re: DaveW] #696315
29/03/21 09:42 PM
29/03/21 09:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,409
Dorset, UK
milligoon Offline
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,409
Dorset, UK
It was an excess of a certain antibody in my blood that gave me a scare a few years back (cancer of the marrow) after many a repeated set of blood tests it turns out that I have funny blood (that was my doctors term for it!), basically I am one of a few in a million that naturally have high levels as the norm, more blood tests in May. Pin cushion mode engaged, when I got the At Severe Risk letter for Covid I thought that I'd been misinformed, but no I shouldn't have been given that, apparently quite a common occurrence I was informed. Phew was my reaction


Mark - No Longer driving
Archie the Old English Sheep Mog...........
2010 Roadster 3.0 V6 (S3) wink
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