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Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature #712008
29/07/21 09:54 PM
29/07/21 09:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,067
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Heinz  Offline OP
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Köln Germany
I bought an aluminium radiator from Simon years ago and had it installed here in my 4/4 Sigma. The cooler actually performs better than the standard plastic factory cooler, at least that's my assumption. But the car got warmer at high speed than with the old, smaller plastic radiator. After about four years, my head gasket broke. It is now new. We installed a new thermostat that is supposed to open at 82 degrees. Still, it's like that again...when I'm driving on the motorway at about 90 mph it goes up to 96 degrees. But when I stop at a red light after driving on the motorway, the temperature immediately drops to a good 89 degrees. It's a strange phenomenon.

I dimly remember this topic being discussed here a few years ago. If I'm not mistaken, an expert explained that the Ford engine cools paradoxically worse with a more powerful radiator than with the less powerful standard radiator. It's as if the engine "thinks" it's winter because the cooled water is too cold. Was I dreaming that or is it the case? The inflow of cold water to the engine does not seem to be let into the engine.
Maybe someone can shed some light on this.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712010
29/07/21 10:25 PM
29/07/21 10:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 2,183
Aberdeenshire
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Aberdeenshire
Heinz .... not a clue as to the electrics of your age of car, but it couldn't be that the regulator that provides the reference voltage for your temperature gauge is faulty and your gauge is following the voltage rises and falls with engine revs??

K

Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712013
29/07/21 10:42 PM
29/07/21 10:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,760
Suffolk
John V6 Offline
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Heinz
Teknome told me he replaced his thermostat on his +4. He found new ones were set high at 96. He tried three before using an old unit he had that works properly.

Maybe the thermostat is set wrong
John


JohnV6
2014 Brooklands Edition Roadster "Brookland's Belle" #5 of 50
Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712014
29/07/21 10:48 PM
29/07/21 10:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,067
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Köln Germany
Image, that is perhaps one possible reason. Only, I measured the temperature via OBD2 and the water cooling sensor is also new. I noticed one thing (as a layman). On most cars, the thermostat is at the outlet of the hot water. It opens when the water gets too hot. But on my Sigma 4/4, as I see it, the thermostat is at the cold water inlet. So it controls how much cold water flows in. It does not regulate (as is usually the case) how much hot water has to flow out.
This may also explain why the original thermostat is calibrated at 82 degrees. That would be much too low if it were working "normally" at the outlet of the hot water.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712016
29/07/21 11:18 PM
29/07/21 11:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
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Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Köln Germany
John, thank you very much for this idea. The thermostat we bought new is explicitly marked as an 82 degree thermostat. My guess is that the "too good" radiator is irritating the circuit. I also don't know if a Plus4 has a "classic" thermostat arrangement...i.e. at the outlet of the hot water. Someone said here on the forum a few years ago that on some Ford models the radiator's output must not be "improved" for the control loop to work?
but that a very specific value of cooling capacity must be maintained? In other words, an "improvement" of the cooler could upset the rules?


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712026
30/07/21 07:15 AM
30/07/21 07:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 2,183
Aberdeenshire
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Heinz .....if you feel you're now 'over-radiatored' have you thought of blanking off some of the radiator as people did in winter in the old days .... with some cardboard and tape you could play with the amount of blanking .... if you found a sweet-spot you could then make something more permanent

K

Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712035
30/07/21 08:44 AM
30/07/21 08:44 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,203
Sumerset
Rog Offline
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Sumerset
Heinz I had a similar conundrum with my earlier car running hotter with a bigger rad. So have a theory that the cooling dynamics of modern Ford engines with stats on the cooling system input at the bottom of the engine appear to behave completely different to older convential engines with stats on the output where the stat is just opened from the heat of the coolant exiting from the head.

Stats on the input at the bottom are opened with the merged combined coolant heat from the bypass coolant and from the cooled coolant exiting the rad. So if you improve the efficiency of your rad (lower the output temp) the engine has to run hotter to raise the bypass coolant sufficiently to offset the cooler coolant from the more efficient rad in order to open the stat.

Just a theory but the reason I bought one of Simons 'shorty' rads for my later car. I suspected that it would be a closer thermal match to the original rad and am very pleased with how it behaves compared to my previous Duratec with a larger rad.

Last edited by Rog; 30/07/21 09:37 AM.

Roger
2011 Plus 4
Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712038
30/07/21 09:21 AM
30/07/21 09:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,487
Derby
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Derby
Heinz, I have an aluminium rad on my 2010 Sigma. Sadly, in the UK we cannot travel at 90mph - but have had it up there on track. My gauge always shows about 70c when moving. The fan cuts in at just below 100c but it only rarely reaches this and always when in a long queue or stop/start driving. I would suspect the sender to the gauge.


2010 4/4 sport - le mans green
Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712045
30/07/21 09:55 AM
30/07/21 09:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,197
SimonH Offline
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I've seen this problem with the monster radiators that I make for Land Rover Defenders fitted with 7 ltr Chevrolet LS V8 engines.
These cars are destined for the Gulf states and so the radiator is massively overspecced for the UK.

Because the radiator is so efficient, and the 'stat is in the bottom hose- ie the "cold side" of the radiator, when the car gets up to temperature and the 'stat opens, the radiator then massively cools the sudden influx of hot water, and the 'stat slams back shut again and the engine gets hotter rather than reaching an equilibrium

We cured it by fitting a lower temperature thermostat


Simon @ Sifab.co.uk

Sifabtemporary@gmail.com
Re: Strange behaviour of the cooling water temperature [Re: Heinz] #712057
30/07/21 11:07 AM
30/07/21 11:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,067
Köln Germany
Heinz Offline OP
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Köln Germany
Thanks to all the explanation makes a lot of sense, Rog, Simon and all.
Simon, which temperature in Celsius would you recommend (original is 82 degrees)…and is such a stat easily to purchase?


'14 4/4 graphite grey
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