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Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714054
13/08/21 12:44 PM
13/08/21 12:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 14,425
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 14,425
Salisbury, UK
Buying cars seems to be all about the cost per month.
The Tesla cost me, per month including fuel, insurance and servicing, the same as the AMG C63.
A comment by the head of Renault I read in Autocar was that it will be 5 to 10 years before the cost of a new EV is the same as a new ICE car.
I suspect that the car industry sees EVs as a way to improve margins.
After 2030 I also suspect that the price of used ICE cars will firm up as for many even a used EV will not be affordable.


Peter,
Power Corrupts.....
Tarka the 'Otter Mog....2014 Plus 8
Tesla Model 3 AWD.


Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714062
13/08/21 01:23 PM
13/08/21 01:23 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,147
Llanelli
sospan Offline
Talk Morgan Guru
sospan  Offline
Talk Morgan Guru

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,147
Llanelli
Peter, a more realistic view is cost of ownership over a given period. With EV’s the higher up front purchase cost is the killer in the comparison versus ICE equivalent.
Moving to PCP mitigates this price difference and changes the comparison maths results. Basically you rent/lease the car rather than buy and own an asset.
We tend to buy and keep the workhorse household car for extended periods rather than trade in/replace after 2/3 years.
I have not been convinced that stepping onto the train of early, repeat car changing works for us. We have a Kia still within the 7 year warranty period. Very pleased with it and I don’t see a reason to exchange it early.


Red Plus8
Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714070
13/08/21 02:05 PM
13/08/21 02:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 11,382
Lancashire, England
Stewart S Offline
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Stewart S  Offline
Wave & smile... It's a Morgan
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 11,382
Lancashire, England
Originally Posted by Peter J
Buying cars seems to be all about the cost per month.
The Tesla cost me, per month including fuel, insurance and servicing, the same as the AMG C63.
A comment by the head of Renault I read in Autocar was that it will be 5 to 10 years before the cost of a new EV is the same as a new ICE car.
I suspect that the car industry sees EVs as a way to improve margins.
After 2030 I also suspect that the price of used ICE cars will firm up as for many even a used EV will not be affordable.


I doubt margins are greater for EV’s but I think the high costs only reflect the recuperation of their design and development costs and the lower volumes

It’s new technology and no one really knows what the residuals, obsolescence or costs of long term ownership actually are at the moment

Two thirds of the entire life carbon footprint of any car is solely in its manufacture so if we keep our old vehicles for just a little bit longer rather than buying new, even if it’s an electric vehicle, is way better for the environment

Manufacturers don’t want us to think like this of course as they want to build and sell new cars but consumerism and buying new cars is the killer


2008 XXVII Platform, Bugatti Blue Roadster 4 Seater
Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714074
13/08/21 02:33 PM
13/08/21 02:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 2,346
Aberdeenshire
Image Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
Image  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert

Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 2,346
Aberdeenshire
Interesting to see the suggestion that we shouldn't worry about home charging as we can charge away from the house .... overnight charging is pivotal to integrating EVs into our electricity infrastructue .... if drivers who can't charge at home (let's face it that will be most of them in urban situations, the obvious target market for EV) now have to charge during the day when electricity demand is high and little headroom is available in the system ... we will need massive investment in new generation.

Strike's me you can have overnight home charging and a difficult, but hopefully manageable, increase in infastructure or daytime charging and insoluble supply issues.

K

Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: PeterG] #714096
13/08/21 04:04 PM
13/08/21 04:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,793
N
nick w Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
nick w  Offline
Talk Morgan Expert
N

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,793
Originally Posted by PeterG
PCP'S

VW ID3 Pure 150ps 5 door £205 per month
Tesla Model 3 STD £402 per month

BMW 128ti £235 per month
Vauxhall Insignia 1.5 Diesel £299 per month

The argument regarding terrace housing is nonsense, you don't currently have a petrol pump so why would you have a charger. There is a compromise with EV it takes a bit longer to fill up and you have to get used to that if you want one.


Whatever size charging stations are you envisioning? When you think that everyone ahead of you in the queue is going to be at least 20/30 minutes. Can you imagine how long the queues will be? Unless the charging station is the size of a Heathrow car park..and where is that real estate going to come from in Fulham and Wandsworth and Hackney...or anywhere where the housing is dense?

Nick

Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: nick w] #714100
13/08/21 04:38 PM
13/08/21 04:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,883
Norfolk
PeterG Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
PeterG  Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,883
Norfolk
Originally Posted by nick w
Originally Posted by PeterG
PCP'S

VW ID3 Pure 150ps 5 door £205 per month
Tesla Model 3 STD £402 per month

BMW 128ti £235 per month
Vauxhall Insignia 1.5 Diesel £299 per month

The argument regarding terrace housing is nonsense, you don't currently have a petrol pump so why would you have a charger. There is a compromise with EV it takes a bit longer to fill up and you have to get used to that if you want one.


Whatever size charging stations are you envisioning? When you think that everyone ahead of you in the queue is going to be at least 20/30 minutes. Can you imagine how long the queues will be? Unless the charging station is the size of a Heathrow car park..and where is that real estate going to come from in Fulham and Wandsworth and Hackney...or anywhere where the housing is dense?

Nick


The vast majority of new EV owners are in the lucky position to have a driveway at least and come out each morning to a fully charged vehicle these owners only need to top up on longer journeys. Ten minutes or so and they depart, thats what happens with the Tesla we have at work. If you fill up at the average garage /shop its around ten minutes or more if you get someone in front of you doing their weekly shop...The change over to EV isn't going happen overnight and in the meantime battery technology along with charging times are being reduced.

The problem as you say is regarding housing with no parking facilities. Not sure about car ownership in London, put it this way they must hide their cars because any housing estate I visit at work there are very few vehicles let alone anywhere to park one and have you tried getting through London in a car lately, Park Lane used to be three lanes now down to one, Embankment almost all down to one lane. At this rate London will be a pedestrian zone in 30 years time. Near me they are building 4 bed houses with no garage and no drive. The builder quotes AI vehicles will be used in the near future so no need for a personal vehicle. Nothing to do with squeezing an extra house in here and there.

Until the infrastructure and battery technology has improved there will ultimately be a queue.

Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714101
13/08/21 05:00 PM
13/08/21 05:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 14,425
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline OP
Formerly known as Aldermog
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 14,425
Salisbury, UK
Two thoughts about the future....

1. If I have a home charging point can I sell the use of it when I don't need it?

2. If EVs make petrol stations rare will we who remain loyal to ICE all have to carry a spare petrol in a 5 gallon "Jerry Can"?

Peter


Peter,
Power Corrupts.....
Tarka the 'Otter Mog....2014 Plus 8
Tesla Model 3 AWD.


Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714104
13/08/21 05:09 PM
13/08/21 05:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,883
Norfolk
PeterG Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
PeterG  Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,883
Norfolk
Originally Posted by Peter J
Two thoughts about the future....

1. If I have a home charging point can I sell the use of it when I don't need it?

2. If EVs make petrol stations rare will we who remain loyal to ICE all have to carry a spare petrol in a 5 gallon "Jerry Can"?

Peter


1. In theory yes but check out Ofgem.gov.uk It might come under "supply" so a licence maybe needed.
2. Hope so, then its a Morgan CT-xish (cheaper version) with Jerry cans on the back instead of spare wheels smile

Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714105
13/08/21 05:12 PM
13/08/21 05:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 29,169
Devonshire
+8Rich Offline
Tricky Dicky
+8Rich  Offline
Tricky Dicky
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 29,169
Devonshire
2. I'll get my mate to knock up an extra alloy tank in the luggage space, no problem anything to keep the Morgan ICE going.


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green prev
1994 Connaught Green +8 prev





Re: Time for Electric Power? [Re: Peter J] #714108
13/08/21 05:15 PM
13/08/21 05:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 19,982
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
Roadster Guru
DaveW  Offline
Roadster Guru
Member of the Inner Circle

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 19,982
South Yorkshire
Affordability will drive this change, which let's face it is political rather than environmental.

We live on a small estate which is primarily retired people, and there are very few new cars here. There is one EV and he has a charger on the wall, but he also has two old ICE vehicles and a caravan.

Most of the area close by is terraced houses, with minimal spaces, so all those people, if they could afford EV's would take up charging spaces during the day because they can't charge at home. But since the average age of cars on those streets is over ten years, it's not likely to be a problem, and only the cost of fuel will drive them out of ICE cars and probably off the road.

Politicians who ignore the less well off, will probably feel the consequences, especially if this involves closure of petrol stations, which then means more journeys further afield to fill up, which hardly helps emissions.

I don't think it's possible to predict how this will roll.


DaveW
'05 Red Roadster S1
'16 Yellow (Not the only) Narrow AR GDI Plus 4
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