Have a look here:

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/...hId=acbdac33-7410-254b-9504-6abfeb16deb0

I think someone was on an optimistic way.

Greets René

Another bent Plus Six!

Oops!



Bud
4/4 - Stanley

They look so sad bent.

Yes they do, and it's only Morgan's that affect me in this way. Just 7,000miles on it..

Rene, optimistic is right I wouldn't want it as a gift.

Aie ! Sorry for the unlucky owner...
By the way, what is this strange gear shifter knob ?

Looking at this "Work" I remember Trini Lopez...

If I had a Hammer....

I think they had a first try of the repair and beat the parts more or less in shape. For the first try to work with alloy it’s not too bad. Than they realize that to work with alloy is a special thing and also the chassis is damaged.

Greets René

Weird, lots of outward lumps in the wings suggesting someone has spent considerable time trying to knock the dents in the bodywork 'out'

Brings these words to mind..dedicated to all Morgan PlusSix owners, everywhere

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust

I have driven 2 cars with the BMW B58 motor. My M140i and the Plus Six. I disliked both... for the way the power was delivered and the ride quality.
The M140i, even with BMW's complex drive management software aids always felt like a vicious animal that wanted to bite, but at least it gave notice.
The PlusSix, without any drive management and 400kg less mass was like a Rottweiler, restrained but waiting to bite without any warning.

The Plus Six could be a great car, in my view it needs a Quaife LSD and a full remap to change to way the engine delivers torque, moving the peak from 1250 rpm to something like 3000 rpm and making the power delivery more controllable..just like the Plus 8: they have similar bhp, but totally different torque delivery. It is the sudden massive torque snap and lack of traction control that makes the PlusSix so vicious in the hands of the unwary.
One web source claims that the B58 engine will deliver 600-650whp and 550-600wtq on the stock block and internals... so it is already at a low state of tune.

Might be even nicer with no turbo....
Or 2 fewer cylinders...
Oh, that is the PlusFour.

Very sad to see any cars in this condition, let’s hope there have been no seriously injuries.

I think ESP is essential for the Plus Six.

+1

I haven't driven a Plus six yet, but all those who have disassembled a Plus six can't all drive worse than I do. Without ESP, I would constantly have the feeling that I can not give the car to my heart's content the spurs. Without ESP then maybe better a Plus Four, but that's just me.

I have my Plus six from a bit more than 18 month now and honestly if you keep it in "drive" mode it's surprisingly a quite calm horse even under rain !
In "sport" mode it spin-off if you push throttle on the floor but keep his target in strait line, in a corner of course the back try to pass the front but it seems still not too hard to control when dry (personally I will not try it on open road under rain without a good rain stage on circuit with it...it's on my plan for next year)
But if you put it in "sport plus" then the wild horse appair directly when putting the foot on the floor !!!
In strait line at 60 km/h on dry road the horse kick your back in less than one second and if the road is not totally flat it the rear spin-off immediately by a good 50 cm before you are able to react !
The plus 6 is easy to drive but if you go "sport plus" mode you need to be an good, concentrate and ready driver...

I think one of the MY23 updates is to include TC as standard

They need it.
Even so, my BM! M140i, with the same engine and BMW traction/stability control still felt like the back end wanted to explore dew places...
If it is true I could renew my interest...

Problem is basic TC is not full-on ESP, so I suspect some less experienced CX owners will still visit the odd hedge

If MMC are adding the BMW TC it is highly likely that it will include ESP.

BTW, I have been informed from a reliable source that the 2023 CX caars will have some form of Traction Control.

All the S4 Aero based cars have EBD and ABS, the CX cars have ABS and I assume EBD.
All these aids are software driven by data from the engine, gearbox and brakes:I suspect the CX has all the hardware needed to make TC and ESP function, but it will need a software adaption to deal with such a light car.

This sums up my previous thoughts and comments on the frequency and reasons for the crashes. Basically a power train designed for a heavier car being let loose on a much lighter car. Add in overenthusiastic and ability optimistic driver = disaster.
Was there a rush to get the car out without the “upgrades” ?
The M3W seemed to be in that category with the quickly discovered problems that full development testing should spot. Chassis cracks, bump steer, rear sprocket, bevel box, cush drive......
I haven’t driven a CX car so only making observations from what owners are experiencing.
It reminds me a bit of the early Porsche 911 rear end traction losses.
I really need to get in the CX cars to see what they are like.

I suspect it will be just luck that will secure a decent integration of engine management, gearbox behaviour, suspension tuning and ESC/TC intervention on the Plus 4/6. Morgan simply do not have the resources to do all the tuning of handling/ride/safety that BMW et al do in collaboration with their suppliers (ZF/Bosch etc).

I have driven the Plus series but in general am not a fan of most modern turbo engines which have a big step transition from nothing to loads of torque....Ferrai and a few others have tuned theirs to have a steadily rising torque/rev curve that at the top end fully exploits the beneft of turbocharging. We will continue to enjoy our NA M3W and Boxster for now and live with the turbo-diesel hack....

It seems it is only the plus six that has the traction problem - I now have 17000 Kms on my Plus Four and have no problems at all with traction, neither have I issues withe auto transmission which I find very smooth indeed. I felt the plus six was a bit scary when I test drove one and am delighted I chose the plus four.

Is the issue that they need to use the crate engine as it arrives in order for it to pass type approval/emissions etc in order to meet compliance. As mentioned before a fatter car has less issue as the ass will absorb the power and weight will improve traction. Until it does let go and then rotation/ditches remain the same option!

I would never suggest that anyone has three years before this will be MoT tested and consider a (warranty) re map to reduce and smooth the lower end. Applying a tune to make a 140hp engine produce 200hp is a bad thing but softening and adjusting the shape of the map at the lower end seems less obstructive? Bloke with a laptop, not so difficult, there are dozens of quite practiced people out there with skills around the N58. My guess is that it would make it a lot nicer to drive without the big step in the power curve, or should I call it torque plateau.

Using the custom option to soften it here maybe https://williamsperformance.co.uk/products/b58-custom-tune-by-odin-tuned. Maybe the dealers will come in on it to protect their demo cars!

I think the kickdown control on the autu box is too severe. The combination of engine map and gearbox control seem ok for the heavier BMW originals. I agree that a “ detune” of the map to compensate for less weight would be a good move. Maybe a selector to choose map variants. More cars seem to begetting this option. Even the basic bottom end map would deliver a good performance in a lighter than BMW barge car like the Plus6.
Out of curiosity, what map changes does the Odin offer? Just tuneUP or a TuneDown? I haven’t had a look at the options offered.
When driving a manual you can moderate your right foot, stay in higher gear to prevent sudden torque snatching.
It creates a gentler, smoother power control. A handy technique in the wet.

As Alistair and Sospan have said, the problem is that the B58 engine reaches peak torque at less than 1500 rpm. The absolute value isn't much different from that of the engine in the Plus 8, the difference is that the peak torque is reached at 3400 rpm, so it is much easier to modulate the torque through the throttle and gears. A remap to move peak torque to 2500 rpm would be a big help, add in TC and ESP and then the PlusSix becomes a delight.

+1

Yes, I also believe that with today's programming possibilities one can design a beautiful NA-like flow. Of course, it costs time and money, and then there are the emission regulations. I'm not an expert, but it could be that such regulations stand in the way of such an approach.

Possibly. Lotus were and are very limited in what they can do to the Toyota engines they use without losing the Toyota engine guarantee.

As a Plus 6 driver for over a year and now covered 6000 miles, I find it delightful just as it is……

Mike
1982 4/4
1999 +4
2004 Roadster S1
2010 Roadster S2
2021 Plus 6

Good to hear!

Indeed, well done sir

I'm sure you are the typical owner who knows exactly what he is buying into and there are a great many of you, enjoy your miles

The problem with TM and many other forum is that only the bad news comes to light, those that are happy don't shout about it

All the gadgetry in the world won't save the fools out there, it's natural selection we just have to hope we don't meet one on their lemming journey..

Absolutely, there are plenty of Morgan enthusiasts out there who want what the Plus Six delivers, and are skilled and wise enough to drive them properly. For them, it's a wonderful car.

I'm a little bit concerned however that especially for those new to the Morgan ownership experience, the desire to have the 'Top of the Range' model might outweigh the need for a more circumspect approach, especially if age is starting to erode the skills of youth. For many/most/nearly all purchasers, I believe the Plus Four makes a much more usable option.

I'm pretty sure I no longer have the reaction times and handling skills to make a Plus 6 a safe choice for me. Actually TBH a Plus Four might be a bit much as well. I'm perfectly content with my 165bhp.

A lot of truth in there in that some new owners have to have the top of the range no matter what that means in reality but at this price point a lot of owners will be people that appreciate and understand cars that can bite, I have read enough about the Plus Six to know that I do not possess the reactions or talent to use one.

The Plus 8 with it's 190bhp keeps my attention at all times and can and will bite readily so I'm happy to stay with it until the day comes when I can no longer get under it or get in it.

I am a total devotee to the vee eight music and it was the reason why I didn't go for a Plus Four last year at the last moment, this could have been a good thing bearing in mind slowing reaction times.

I definitely would have lost my cool over the radiator debacle too....

The fear of not being able to control the monster in the rain made me choose the Plus Four. Too bad, the Plus six is ​​a fantastic car.

Maybee, Gaston, but the Plus Four looks better...

I note your last comment Richard, but in fairness much larger manufacturers also have ‘issues’ with cars often resulting in recalls. The CX-model line also went through the BMW new car programme and was extensively tested and driven on their test track, the first Morgan to do so and nothing untoward was found on the car and it was signed off by BMW.

As regards the Plus 6 and its driveability , I currently have a Plus 6 courtesy car whilst my Plus 8 has some work done at the Works and it certainly makes for an exhilarating drive with effortless performance - faster than the Plus 8 too. As any Aero-Plus 8 driver is aware there is no electronic stability control on the car, part of its charm and in the rain or damp conditions one has to be pretty circumspect with the right foot. My own car has been chipped with an emphasis on torque rather than peak power. The base Plus 8 (Aero) develops 490 Nm @ 3400 rpm, I do not know the actual figure for my chipped car, but it is certainly higher than the 500Nm that the Plus 6 develops though in its case from a low 1600 rpm all the way to 4500 rpm.

The Plus 8 has a BMW derived ZF 6-speed auto box (on my car) and on kick-down in sport setting it usually changes down one gear, the Plus 6 has a more modern version of this box again BMW derived, but with 8-speeds and on kick-down particularity at median speeds in sport setting, it changes down quite often two gears and sometimes three gears! I personally feel it is not necessarily the torque generated that is the issue per se, but if you kick-down and change down three gears and then get 500 Nm of torque delivered it will break traction on a very light car, especially in wet or slippery conditions.

I’m sure that many new owners to the marque are used to the modern cars “nanny state” with electronics sorting out the indiscretions caused by a heavy right foot, but I feel that even the 350 NM of the Plus 4 if indiscriminately used is enough to cause a problem. Caveat emptor, maybe MMC should have an insert in the handbook for newbies to the marque!

The handbook does say, “ …..it is recommended that the owner undergoes advanced driver training….” - but who reads handbooks or instruction manuals?

My thoughts are along aeroman’s. A hard kickdown with multiple downshifts puts the car into the high torque region resulting in rear end traction reduction.
The more power/torque an engine puts out needs learning to control through the right foot.
I learned my trad Plus8’s response gradually over varied driving. Small liberties only with selected places to test.
There’s no need to be on the limits on roads, as opposed to track, but learning the car’r response can mean better enjoyment. Reading road conditions adds to that.

Accelerator pedals move in 2 directions, I have driven some vehicles, competition and pre production evaluation ‘test beds’ that were scary and on the point of being lethal. All of them had throttles that would return to idle. I have ridden a couple of insane motorbikes, one (Hyabusa) would pick the front wheel up at 100MPH if you wound the throttle fully open, again it would bimble along at 5MPH if required.

Like many things in life it’s all about self control surely, there are many things I would have liked to have tried when I was younger and had better reactions but would never try them without considerable training and advice. Playing with the limits where someone else is likely to be hurt in an on the public road situation is foolhardy at least.

My own stupidity and belief that I was indestructible caused me to leave various parts of rally cars all over Wales and Yorkshire but as I had a consenting adult strapped into the passenger seat it was acceptable, jumping into a high power vehicle without considering what it’s capabilities were are a recipe for trouble.

Running out of ability takes you straight to the scene of the accident.

BR
Colin

Sadly we see the outcome of self belief over real ability quite frequently with fast cars. You Tube is full of live action idiocy.

I drove the Mog to play golf this morning. About 5 miles there but took a longer route back. Well known routes with places you don’t take liberties and some where you can....but up to a limit. Winding roads that allow a combination of sensible enjoyment and careful driving. Passed a couple of horse riders...slowly and big gap. Heard a comment from a rider “ I want one of those”. Probably meant the car not me!
On the way back I was 3 cars behind a car doing 25 in a 40 limit. The two cars between were crawling over each others boots and passed on a brow. Luckily no near misses. Neither were high powered so not quick moves. Me? Just trundled along behind as no need to spurt past. The Plus8 had the capability to do it but why? Had my fun earlier reading the road and enjoying the feeling. No high speeds just making progress.
So, should I modify the standard tune V8 to get more ? No. I don’t need more power/torque. It’s road car not a track car for competition. No need to chase power. The torque is in a decent place and rev management kicks in more if desired.

Torque is great to have on tap and available when you need it , but in reality how much of your driving requires a massive continuous reserve of torque? I find I have more issues with trying to access the torque reserves either through poor gear ratio spacing or poor road surfaces and lack of traction thru the rear wheels especially in damp or wet conditions, that sometimes its a hinderance to smooth fast overtaking in anything other than dry, level roads with no undulations so I rarely use the torque reserves to their full potential because of other limiting factors. Its great for those rare journeys where everything comes together, but I normally have the wife with me, I tend to be very circumspect unless I know the conditions are absolutely perfect to execute a safe manoeuvre.

It's the old thing about race cars again. People seem to want to be able to buy road cars that have race car levels of performance, without considering the entirely different driving environments. It's one thing to be able to take a car with hundreds of bhp and enormous torque out on a racetrack where sight lines are clear and you know nothing is coming the other way, but on a road, it's often positively dangerous.

The lane that leads down from our field joins the main road on a curve. The surface at the exit is usually covered with silt and gravel as all the rain run-off comes down the lane. Visibility back up the main road is about 100m max. The speed limit on that stretch is 50, and although in theory the oncoming drivers know there is a minor road joining ahead, precious few take any notice of it - or indeed of the speed limit either. You've got about 4 seconds to pull out and get up to speed to avoid the possibility of someone coming round the corner and hitting you up the arse.

So exit the lane safely, you have to accelerate briskly whilst turning left, and make sure you don't run wide and stray into the path of incoming traffic. In my car I sometimes overdo it a bit, but it's dead easy to catch any slide and straighten up without drama. But in a Plus Six that hits maximum torque with the tiniest whisper of throttle? I'd be terrified. It's great that there are drivers out there with very high levels of driving skill who are able to fully enjoy supercar levels of performance safely, and it's great that there are cars available to allow them to enjoy their skills to the limit, but for most, it's altogether just too much.

Like Dave says, self-belief can be a dangerous thing.

There are two ways of looking at it.
1.You have learned how the car responds and have an empathy with it. You have the physical-mental link that means you understand how to moderate and control the response. Add in your reading of the road, conditions etc.
2. You don’t have that mental- physical combination so have to avoid a car that takes you beyond your ability to sense, control the response and/or read the road/ conditions.
Every person has abilities that range between 1 and 2 and the important part is recognising your limits.
What are you comfortable with?

You should try the Toyota Supra. I would be interested to know if it is the same or whether Toyota have tuned the engine nicer.