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German Write off #743022
27/05/22 01:28 PM
27/05/22 01:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 798
Germany, Rhein-Main Area
X
xc68anc Offline OP
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Germany, Rhein-Main Area
Have a look here:

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/...hId=acbdac33-7410-254b-9504-6abfeb16deb0

I think someone was on an optimistic way.

Greets René


2018 plus4 (sports green)
with a homemade really shiny red tinted dash…
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743026
27/05/22 02:10 PM
27/05/22 02:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 7,168
Devon
Budster Offline
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Devon
Another bent Plus Six!

Oops!

doh

Bud
4/4 - Stanley


Bud
4/4 "Stanley"
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743028
27/05/22 02:17 PM
27/05/22 02:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,438
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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South Yorkshire
They look so sad bent.


DaveW
'05 Red Roadster S1
'16 Yellow (Not the only) Narrow AR GDI Plus 4
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743029
27/05/22 02:41 PM
27/05/22 02:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,031
Devonshire
+8Rich Online content
Tricky Dicky
+8Rich  Online Content
Tricky Dicky
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Posts: 31,031
Devonshire
Yes they do, and it's only Morgan's that affect me in this way. Just 7,000miles on it..

Rene, optimistic is right I wouldn't want it as a gift.


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green prev
1993 Connaught Green +8 prev





Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743031
27/05/22 03:39 PM
27/05/22 03:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 201
Belgium Nivelles
Dada Offline
L - Learner Plates On
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Posts: 201
Belgium Nivelles
scared Aie ! Sorry for the unlucky owner...
By the way, what is this strange gear shifter knob ? sherlock

Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743032
27/05/22 03:40 PM
27/05/22 03:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,231
Northern Germany
bmgermany Offline
Has a lot to Say!
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Posts: 1,231
Northern Germany
Looking at this "Work" I remember Trini Lopez...

If I had a Hammer.... doh


2005 4/4 1800ccm Duratec and a lot of HONDA CX500.......
Re: German Write off [Re: bmgermany] #743033
27/05/22 03:49 PM
27/05/22 03:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 798
Germany, Rhein-Main Area
X
xc68anc Offline OP
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xc68anc  Offline OP
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Germany, Rhein-Main Area
Originally Posted by bmgermany
Looking at this "Work" I remember Trini Lopez...

If I had a Hammer.... doh


I think they had a first try of the repair and beat the parts more or less in shape. For the first try to work with alloy it’s not too bad. Than they realize that to work with alloy is a special thing and also the chassis is damaged.

Greets René


2018 plus4 (sports green)
with a homemade really shiny red tinted dash…
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743034
27/05/22 03:50 PM
27/05/22 03:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,105
Northern Capital of Cool
CooperMan Offline
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Weird, lots of outward lumps in the wings suggesting someone has spent considerable time trying to knock the dents in the bodywork 'out' doh


Jon M
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743046
27/05/22 05:55 PM
27/05/22 05:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,073
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline
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Member of the Inner Circle

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Posts: 15,073
Salisbury, UK
Brings these words to mind..dedicated to all Morgan PlusSix owners, everywhere

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust

I have driven 2 cars with the BMW B58 motor. My M140i and the Plus Six. I disliked both... for the way the power was delivered and the ride quality.
The M140i, even with BMW's complex drive management software aids always felt like a vicious animal that wanted to bite, but at least it gave notice.
The PlusSix, without any drive management and 400kg less mass was like a Rottweiler, restrained but waiting to bite without any warning.

The Plus Six could be a great car, in my view it needs a Quaife LSD and a full remap to change to way the engine delivers torque, moving the peak from 1250 rpm to something like 3000 rpm and making the power delivery more controllable..just like the Plus 8: they have similar bhp, but totally different torque delivery. It is the sudden massive torque snap and lack of traction control that makes the PlusSix so vicious in the hands of the unwary.
One web source claims that the B58 engine will deliver 600-650whp and 550-600wtq on the stock block and internals... so it is already at a low state of tune.

Might be even nicer with no turbo....
Or 2 fewer cylinders...
Oh, that is the PlusFour.




Peter,
66, my 2016 Porsche Boxster S
Tarka 2014 Plus 8....Off the road, since March!


Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743163
29/05/22 09:53 AM
29/05/22 09:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 39
MikeFromPembroke Offline
Just Getting Started
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Posts: 39
Very sad to see any cars in this condition, let’s hope there have been no seriously injuries.


Mike
1982 4/4
2004 Roadster S1
2010 Roadster S2
2021 Plus 6
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743167
29/05/22 10:38 AM
29/05/22 10:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 103
France, Dunkerque
G
gaston Offline
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France, Dunkerque

I think ESP is essential for the Plus Six.

Re: German Write off [Re: gaston] #743197
29/05/22 04:03 PM
29/05/22 04:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,309
Köln Germany
Heinz Online content
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Heinz  Online Content
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Köln Germany
Originally Posted by gaston

I think ESP is essential for the Plus Six.


+1

I haven't driven a Plus six yet, but all those who have disassembled a Plus six can't all drive worse than I do. Without ESP, I would constantly have the feeling that I can not give the car to my heart's content the spurs. Without ESP then maybe better a Plus Four, but that's just me.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743199
29/05/22 04:58 PM
29/05/22 04:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 201
Belgium Nivelles
Dada Offline
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Belgium Nivelles
I have my Plus six from a bit more than 18 month now and honestly if you keep it in "drive" mode it's surprisingly a quite calm horse even under rain !
In "sport" mode it spin-off if you push throttle on the floor but keep his target in strait line, in a corner of course the back try to pass the front but it seems still not too hard to control when dry (personally I will not try it on open road under rain without a good rain stage on circuit with it...it's on my plan for next year)
But if you put it in "sport plus" then the wild horse appair directly when putting the foot on the floor !!! Devil6
In strait line at 60 km/h on dry road the horse kick your back in less than one second and if the road is not totally flat it the rear spin-off immediately by a good 50 cm before you are able to react ! scared
The plus 6 is easy to drive but if you go "sport plus" mode you need to be an good, concentrate and ready driver...

Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743227
29/05/22 08:41 PM
29/05/22 08:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,105
Northern Capital of Cool
CooperMan Offline
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I think one of the MY23 updates is to include TC as standard


Jon M
Re: German Write off [Re: CooperMan] #743320
31/05/22 09:55 AM
31/05/22 09:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,073
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline
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Posts: 15,073
Salisbury, UK
Originally Posted by CooperMan
I think one of the MY23 updates is to include TC as standard


They need it.
Even so, my BM! M140i, with the same engine and BMW traction/stability control still felt like the back end wanted to explore dew places...
If it is true I could renew my interest...


Peter,
66, my 2016 Porsche Boxster S
Tarka 2014 Plus 8....Off the road, since March!


Re: German Write off [Re: Peter J] #743339
31/05/22 12:43 PM
31/05/22 12:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,105
Northern Capital of Cool
CooperMan Offline
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Northern Capital of Cool
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by CooperMan
I think one of the MY23 updates is to include TC as standard


They need it.
Even so, my BM! M140i, with the same engine and BMW traction/stability control still felt like the back end wanted to explore dew places...
If it is true I could renew my interest...

Problem is basic TC is not full-on ESP, so I suspect some less experienced CX owners will still visit the odd hedge


Jon M
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743364
31/05/22 05:09 PM
31/05/22 05:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,073
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
Peter J  Offline
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Salisbury, UK
If MMC are adding the BMW TC it is highly likely that it will include ESP.

BTW, I have been informed from a reliable source that the 2023 CX caars will have some form of Traction Control.

All the S4 Aero based cars have EBD and ABS, the CX cars have ABS and I assume EBD.
All these aids are software driven by data from the engine, gearbox and brakes:I suspect the CX has all the hardware needed to make TC and ESP function, but it will need a software adaption to deal with such a light car.


Peter,
66, my 2016 Porsche Boxster S
Tarka 2014 Plus 8....Off the road, since March!


Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743387
31/05/22 09:59 PM
31/05/22 09:59 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,465
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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Llanelli
This sums up my previous thoughts and comments on the frequency and reasons for the crashes. Basically a power train designed for a heavier car being let loose on a much lighter car. Add in overenthusiastic and ability optimistic driver = disaster.
Was there a rush to get the car out without the “upgrades” ?
The M3W seemed to be in that category with the quickly discovered problems that full development testing should spot. Chassis cracks, bump steer, rear sprocket, bevel box, cush drive......
I haven’t driven a CX car so only making observations from what owners are experiencing.
It reminds me a bit of the early Porsche 911 rear end traction losses.
I really need to get in the CX cars to see what they are like.


Red Plus8
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743400
01/06/22 06:02 AM
01/06/22 06:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 259
Nr Watership Down UK
J
JMD Offline
Learner Plates Off!
JMD  Offline
Learner Plates Off!
J

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 259
Nr Watership Down UK
I suspect it will be just luck that will secure a decent integration of engine management, gearbox behaviour, suspension tuning and ESC/TC intervention on the Plus 4/6. Morgan simply do not have the resources to do all the tuning of handling/ride/safety that BMW et al do in collaboration with their suppliers (ZF/Bosch etc).

I have driven the Plus series but in general am not a fan of most modern turbo engines which have a big step transition from nothing to loads of torque....Ferrai and a few others have tuned theirs to have a steadily rising torque/rev curve that at the top end fully exploits the beneft of turbocharging. We will continue to enjoy our NA M3W and Boxster for now and live with the turbo-diesel hack....

Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743405
01/06/22 07:12 AM
01/06/22 07:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,216
Co Wexford, Ireland
Robbie Online content
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Posts: 3,216
Co Wexford, Ireland
It seems it is only the plus six that has the traction problem - I now have 17000 Kms on my Plus Four and have no problems at all with traction, neither have I issues withe auto transmission which I find very smooth indeed. I felt the plus six was a bit scary when I test drove one and am delighted I chose the plus four.


Robbie
2021 Plus Four -- Helga
211-WX-1433

"Fettlebodge"--A chief of the PaddyMogs
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743413
01/06/22 08:44 AM
01/06/22 08:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,567
Hampshire
Alistair Offline
Smile, it confuses them
Alistair  Offline
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Needs to Get Out More!

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Posts: 9,567
Hampshire
Is the issue that they need to use the crate engine as it arrives in order for it to pass type approval/emissions etc in order to meet compliance. As mentioned before a fatter car has less issue as the ass will absorb the power and weight will improve traction. Until it does let go and then rotation/ditches remain the same option!

I would never suggest that anyone has three years before this will be MoT tested and consider a (warranty) re map to reduce and smooth the lower end. Applying a tune to make a 140hp engine produce 200hp is a bad thing but softening and adjusting the shape of the map at the lower end seems less obstructive? Bloke with a laptop, not so difficult, there are dozens of quite practiced people out there with skills around the N58. My guess is that it would make it a lot nicer to drive without the big step in the power curve, or should I call it torque plateau.

Using the custom option to soften it here maybe https://williamsperformance.co.uk/products/b58-custom-tune-by-odin-tuned. Maybe the dealers will come in on it to protect their demo cars!


Just time to rent a thimble more petrol before dinner.
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743421
01/06/22 10:01 AM
01/06/22 10:01 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,465
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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Llanelli
I think the kickdown control on the autu box is too severe. The combination of engine map and gearbox control seem ok for the heavier BMW originals. I agree that a “ detune” of the map to compensate for less weight would be a good move. Maybe a selector to choose map variants. More cars seem to begetting this option. Even the basic bottom end map would deliver a good performance in a lighter than BMW barge car like the Plus6.
Out of curiosity, what map changes does the Odin offer? Just tuneUP or a TuneDown? I haven’t had a look at the options offered.
When driving a manual you can moderate your right foot, stay in higher gear to prevent sudden torque snatching.
It creates a gentler, smoother power control. A handy technique in the wet.


Red Plus8
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743424
01/06/22 10:28 AM
01/06/22 10:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,073
Salisbury, UK
Peter J Offline
Formerly known as Aldermog
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Salisbury, UK
As Alistair and Sospan have said, the problem is that the B58 engine reaches peak torque at less than 1500 rpm. The absolute value isn't much different from that of the engine in the Plus 8, the difference is that the peak torque is reached at 3400 rpm, so it is much easier to modulate the torque through the throttle and gears. A remap to move peak torque to 2500 rpm would be a big help, add in TC and ESP and then the PlusSix becomes a delight.


Peter,
66, my 2016 Porsche Boxster S
Tarka 2014 Plus 8....Off the road, since March!


Re: German Write off [Re: Peter J] #743428
01/06/22 11:01 AM
01/06/22 11:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,309
Köln Germany
Heinz Online content
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Heinz  Online Content
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Köln Germany
Originally Posted by Peter J
As Alistair and Sospan have said, the problem is that the B58 engine reaches peak torque at less than 1500 rpm. The absolute value isn't much different from that of the engine in the Plus 8, the difference is that the peak torque is reached at 3400 rpm, so it is much easier to modulate the torque through the throttle and gears. A remap to move peak torque to 2500 rpm would be a big help, add in TC and ESP and then the PlusSix becomes a delight.



+1

Yes, I also believe that with today's programming possibilities one can design a beautiful NA-like flow. Of course, it costs time and money, and then there are the emission regulations. I'm not an expert, but it could be that such regulations stand in the way of such an approach.


'14 4/4 graphite grey
Re: German Write off [Re: Alistair] #743448
01/06/22 02:48 PM
01/06/22 02:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,557
H
howard Offline
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Originally Posted by Alistair
Is the issue that they need to use the crate engine as it arrives in order for it to pass type approval/emissions etc in order to meet compliance. As mentioned before a fatter car has less issue as the ass will absorb the power and weight will improve traction. Until it does let go and then rotation/ditches remain the same option!


Possibly. Lotus were and are very limited in what they can do to the Toyota engines they use without losing the Toyota engine guarantee.

Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743450
01/06/22 03:14 PM
01/06/22 03:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 39
MikeFromPembroke Offline
Just Getting Started
MikeFromPembroke  Offline
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Posts: 39
As a Plus 6 driver for over a year and now covered 6000 miles, I find it delightful just as it is……

Mike
1982 4/4
1999 +4
2004 Roadster S1
2010 Roadster S2
2021 Plus 6

Last edited by MikeFromPembroke; 01/06/22 08:03 PM. Reason: Signature added

Mike
1982 4/4
2004 Roadster S1
2010 Roadster S2
2021 Plus 6
Re: German Write off [Re: MikeFromPembroke] #743470
01/06/22 05:47 PM
01/06/22 05:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,312
Lampeter, Wales
Jon G4LJW Offline
Has a lot to Say!
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Posts: 1,312
Lampeter, Wales
Originally Posted by MikeFromPembroke
As a Plus 6 driver for over a year and now covered 6000 miles, I find it delightful just as it is……


Good to hear!

Re: German Write off [Re: Jon G4LJW] #743476
01/06/22 06:12 PM
01/06/22 06:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,105
Northern Capital of Cool
CooperMan Offline
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Originally Posted by Jon G4LJW
Originally Posted by MikeFromPembroke
As a Plus 6 driver for over a year and now covered 6000 miles, I find it delightful just as it is……


Good to hear!


Indeed, well done sir thumbs


Jon M
Re: German Write off [Re: MikeFromPembroke] #743477
01/06/22 06:16 PM
01/06/22 06:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,031
Devonshire
+8Rich Online content
Tricky Dicky
+8Rich  Online Content
Tricky Dicky
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Devonshire
Originally Posted by MikeFromPembroke
As a Plus 6 driver for over a year and now covered 6000 miles, I find it delightful just as it is……

I'm sure you are the typical owner who knows exactly what he is buying into and there are a great many of you, enjoy your miles thumbs

The problem with TM and many other forum is that only the bad news comes to light, those that are happy don't shout about it wink

All the gadgetry in the world won't save the fools out there, it's natural selection we just have to hope we don't meet one on their lemming journey..


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green prev
1993 Connaught Green +8 prev





Re: German Write off [Re: +8Rich] #743482
01/06/22 07:29 PM
01/06/22 07:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,813
Gloucestershire, UK
Hamwich Offline
Scruffy Oik
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Gloucestershire, UK
Originally Posted by +8Rich
'm sure you are the typical owner who knows exactly what he is buying into and there are a great many of you, enjoy your miles thumbs


Absolutely, there are plenty of Morgan enthusiasts out there who want what the Plus Six delivers, and are skilled and wise enough to drive them properly. For them, it's a wonderful car.

I'm a little bit concerned however that especially for those new to the Morgan ownership experience, the desire to have the 'Top of the Range' model might outweigh the need for a more circumspect approach, especially if age is starting to erode the skills of youth. For many/most/nearly all purchasers, I believe the Plus Four makes a much more usable option.

I'm pretty sure I no longer have the reaction times and handling skills to make a Plus 6 a safe choice for me. Actually TBH a Plus Four might be a bit much as well. I'm perfectly content with my 165bhp.


Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 2022 Mini Cooper SE
Re: German Write off [Re: Hamwich] #743483
01/06/22 07:41 PM
01/06/22 07:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,031
Devonshire
+8Rich Online content
Tricky Dicky
+8Rich  Online Content
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Devonshire
Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by +8Rich
'm sure you are the typical owner who knows exactly what he is buying into and there are a great many of you, enjoy your miles thumbs


Absolutely, there are plenty of Morgan enthusiasts out there who want what the Plus Six delivers, and are skilled and wise enough to drive them properly. For them, it's a wonderful car.

I'm a little bit concerned however that especially for those new to the Morgan ownership experience, the desire to have the 'Top of the Range' model might outweigh the need for a more circumspect approach, especially if age is starting to erode the skills of youth. For many/most/nearly all purchasers, I believe the Plus Four makes a much more usable option.

I'm pretty sure I no longer have the reaction times and handling skills to make a Plus 6 a safe choice for me. Actually TBH a Plus Four might be a bit much as well. I'm perfectly content with my 165bhp.

A lot of truth in there in that some new owners have to have the top of the range no matter what that means in reality but at this price point a lot of owners will be people that appreciate and understand cars that can bite, I have read enough about the Plus Six to know that I do not possess the reactions or talent to use one.

The Plus 8 with it's 190bhp keeps my attention at all times and can and will bite readily so I'm happy to stay with it until the day comes when I can no longer get under it or get in it.

I am a total devotee to the vee eight music and it was the reason why I didn't go for a Plus Four last year at the last moment, this could have been a good thing bearing in mind slowing reaction times.

I definitely would have lost my cool over the radiator debacle too....


Regards Richard

1999 Indigo Blue +8
2009 4/4 Sport Green prev
1993 Connaught Green +8 prev





Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743486
01/06/22 08:17 PM
01/06/22 08:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 103
France, Dunkerque
G
gaston Offline
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France, Dunkerque
The fear of not being able to control the monster in the rain made me choose the Plus Four. Too bad, the Plus six is ​​a fantastic car.

Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743498
02/06/22 08:36 AM
02/06/22 08:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 622
Bergisches Land (near Cologne)
Jens Offline
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Bergisches Land (near Cologne)
Maybee, Gaston, but the Plus Four looks better...

Last edited by Jens; 02/06/22 08:36 AM.

2003 Morgan 4/4 2-seater

Re: German Write off [Re: +8Rich] #743506
02/06/22 11:01 AM
02/06/22 11:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,338
Eton, Berks
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Eton, Berks
Originally Posted by +8Rich
Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by +8Rich
'm sure you are the typical owner who knows exactly what he is buying into and there are a great many of you, enjoy your miles thumbs


Absolutely, there are plenty of Morgan enthusiasts out there who want what the Plus Six delivers, and are skilled and wise enough to drive them properly. For them, it's a wonderful car.

I'm a little bit concerned however that especially for those new to the Morgan ownership experience, the desire to have the 'Top of the Range' model might outweigh the need for a more circumspect approach, especially if age is starting to erode the skills of youth. For many/most/nearly all purchasers, I believe the Plus Four makes a much more usable option.

I'm pretty sure I no longer have the reaction times and handling skills to make a Plus 6 a safe choice for me. Actually TBH a Plus Four might be a bit much as well. I'm perfectly content with my 165bhp.

A lot of truth in there in that some new owners have to have the top of the range no matter what that means in reality but at this price point a lot of owners will be people that appreciate and understand cars that can bite, I have read enough about the Plus Six to know that I do not possess the reactions or talent to use one.

The Plus 8 with it's 190bhp keeps my attention at all times and can and will bite readily so I'm happy to stay with it until the day comes when I can no longer get under it or get in it.

I am a total devotee to the vee eight music and it was the reason why I didn't go for a Plus Four last year at the last moment, this could have been a good thing bearing in mind slowing reaction times.

I definitely would have lost my cool over the radiator debacle too....

I note your last comment Richard, but in fairness much larger manufacturers also have ‘issues’ with cars often resulting in recalls. The CX-model line also went through the BMW new car programme and was extensively tested and driven on their test track, the first Morgan to do so and nothing untoward was found on the car and it was signed off by BMW.

As regards the Plus 6 and its driveability , I currently have a Plus 6 courtesy car whilst my Plus 8 has some work done at the Works and it certainly makes for an exhilarating drive with effortless performance - faster than the Plus 8 too. As any Aero-Plus 8 driver is aware there is no electronic stability control on the car, part of its charm and in the rain or damp conditions one has to be pretty circumspect with the right foot. My own car has been chipped with an emphasis on torque rather than peak power. The base Plus 8 (Aero) develops 490 Nm @ 3400 rpm, I do not know the actual figure for my chipped car, but it is certainly higher than the 500Nm that the Plus 6 develops though in its case from a low 1600 rpm all the way to 4500 rpm.

The Plus 8 has a BMW derived ZF 6-speed auto box (on my car) and on kick-down in sport setting it usually changes down one gear, the Plus 6 has a more modern version of this box again BMW derived, but with 8-speeds and on kick-down particularity at median speeds in sport setting, it changes down quite often two gears and sometimes three gears! I personally feel it is not necessarily the torque generated that is the issue per se, but if you kick-down and change down three gears and then get 500 Nm of torque delivered it will break traction on a very light car, especially in wet or slippery conditions.

I’m sure that many new owners to the marque are used to the modern cars “nanny state” with electronics sorting out the indiscretions caused by a heavy right foot, but I feel that even the 350 NM of the Plus 4 if indiscriminately used is enough to cause a problem. Caveat emptor, maybe MMC should have an insert in the handbook for newbies to the marque! oops


Brian

1970 Morgan Plus 8 - Moss Box (was Black, now in the original Indigo Blue)
2014 Morgan SP1 (Rocket Red)
2015 Morgan Plus 8 (Rocket Blue)
2022 Morgan Threewheeler (Colour TBC)
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743512
02/06/22 12:38 PM
02/06/22 12:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,312
Lampeter, Wales
Jon G4LJW Offline
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Lampeter, Wales
The handbook does say, “ …..it is recommended that the owner undergoes advanced driver training….” - but who reads handbooks or instruction manuals?

Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743554
03/06/22 11:32 AM
03/06/22 11:32 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,465
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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Llanelli
My thoughts are along aeroman’s. A hard kickdown with multiple downshifts puts the car into the high torque region resulting in rear end traction reduction.
The more power/torque an engine puts out needs learning to control through the right foot.
I learned my trad Plus8’s response gradually over varied driving. Small liberties only with selected places to test.
There’s no need to be on the limits on roads, as opposed to track, but learning the car’r response can mean better enjoyment. Reading road conditions adds to that.


Red Plus8
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743558
03/06/22 02:11 PM
03/06/22 02:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,365
Solihull
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Solihull
Accelerator pedals move in 2 directions, I have driven some vehicles, competition and pre production evaluation ‘test beds’ that were scary and on the point of being lethal. All of them had throttles that would return to idle. I have ridden a couple of insane motorbikes, one (Hyabusa) would pick the front wheel up at 100MPH if you wound the throttle fully open, again it would bimble along at 5MPH if required.

Like many things in life it’s all about self control surely, there are many things I would have liked to have tried when I was younger and had better reactions but would never try them without considerable training and advice. Playing with the limits where someone else is likely to be hurt in an on the public road situation is foolhardy at least.

My own stupidity and belief that I was indestructible caused me to leave various parts of rally cars all over Wales and Yorkshire but as I had a consenting adult strapped into the passenger seat it was acceptable, jumping into a high power vehicle without considering what it’s capabilities were are a recipe for trouble.

Running out of ability takes you straight to the scene of the accident.

BR
Colin


BR Colin
Who used to be a Spanner Juggler
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743560
03/06/22 02:37 PM
03/06/22 02:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,438
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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South Yorkshire
Sadly we see the outcome of self belief over real ability quite frequently with fast cars. You Tube is full of live action idiocy.


DaveW
'05 Red Roadster S1
'16 Yellow (Not the only) Narrow AR GDI Plus 4
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743601
03/06/22 09:34 PM
03/06/22 09:34 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,465
Llanelli
sospan Offline
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Llanelli
I drove the Mog to play golf this morning. About 5 miles there but took a longer route back. Well known routes with places you don’t take liberties and some where you can....but up to a limit. Winding roads that allow a combination of sensible enjoyment and careful driving. Passed a couple of horse riders...slowly and big gap. Heard a comment from a rider “ I want one of those”. Probably meant the car not me!
On the way back I was 3 cars behind a car doing 25 in a 40 limit. The two cars between were crawling over each others boots and passed on a brow. Luckily no near misses. Neither were high powered so not quick moves. Me? Just trundled along behind as no need to spurt past. The Plus8 had the capability to do it but why? Had my fun earlier reading the road and enjoying the feeling. No high speeds just making progress.
So, should I modify the standard tune V8 to get more ? No. I don’t need more power/torque. It’s road car not a track car for competition. No need to chase power. The torque is in a decent place and rev management kicks in more if desired.


Red Plus8
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743611
04/06/22 05:14 AM
04/06/22 05:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 1,099
Lytham St Annes, Lancashire
J
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Posts: 1,099
Lytham St Annes, Lancashire
Torque is great to have on tap and available when you need it , but in reality how much of your driving requires a massive continuous reserve of torque? I find I have more issues with trying to access the torque reserves either through poor gear ratio spacing or poor road surfaces and lack of traction thru the rear wheels especially in damp or wet conditions, that sometimes its a hinderance to smooth fast overtaking in anything other than dry, level roads with no undulations so I rarely use the torque reserves to their full potential because of other limiting factors. Its great for those rare journeys where everything comes together, but I normally have the wife with me, I tend to be very circumspect unless I know the conditions are absolutely perfect to execute a safe manoeuvre.


John
2008 Roadster 4 seater FELIX
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Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743612
04/06/22 06:40 AM
04/06/22 06:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,813
Gloucestershire, UK
Hamwich Offline
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Gloucestershire, UK
It's the old thing about race cars again. People seem to want to be able to buy road cars that have race car levels of performance, without considering the entirely different driving environments. It's one thing to be able to take a car with hundreds of bhp and enormous torque out on a racetrack where sight lines are clear and you know nothing is coming the other way, but on a road, it's often positively dangerous.

The lane that leads down from our field joins the main road on a curve. The surface at the exit is usually covered with silt and gravel as all the rain run-off comes down the lane. Visibility back up the main road is about 100m max. The speed limit on that stretch is 50, and although in theory the oncoming drivers know there is a minor road joining ahead, precious few take any notice of it - or indeed of the speed limit either. You've got about 4 seconds to pull out and get up to speed to avoid the possibility of someone coming round the corner and hitting you up the arse.

So exit the lane safely, you have to accelerate briskly whilst turning left, and make sure you don't run wide and stray into the path of incoming traffic. In my car I sometimes overdo it a bit, but it's dead easy to catch any slide and straighten up without drama. But in a Plus Six that hits maximum torque with the tiniest whisper of throttle? I'd be terrified. It's great that there are drivers out there with very high levels of driving skill who are able to fully enjoy supercar levels of performance safely, and it's great that there are cars available to allow them to enjoy their skills to the limit, but for most, it's altogether just too much.

Like Dave says, self-belief can be a dangerous thing.


Tim H.
1986 4/4 VVTi Sport, 2002 LR Defender, 2022 Mini Cooper SE
Re: German Write off [Re: xc68anc] #743713
05/06/22 11:01 PM
05/06/22 11:01 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,465
Llanelli
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Llanelli
There are two ways of looking at it.
1.You have learned how the car responds and have an empathy with it. You have the physical-mental link that means you understand how to moderate and control the response. Add in your reading of the road, conditions etc.
2. You don’t have that mental- physical combination so have to avoid a car that takes you beyond your ability to sense, control the response and/or read the road/ conditions.
Every person has abilities that range between 1 and 2 and the important part is recognising your limits.
What are you comfortable with?


Red Plus8
Re: German Write off [Re: Peter J] #743716
06/06/22 12:40 AM
06/06/22 12:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 482
C
ChrisConvertible Offline
Learner Plates Off!
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Learner Plates Off!
C

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 482
Originally Posted by Peter J

I have driven 2 cars with the BMW B58 motor. My M140i and the Plus Six. I disliked both... for the way the power was delivered and the ride quality.


You should try the Toyota Supra. I would be interested to know if it is the same or whether Toyota have tuned the engine nicer.

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