Hi All,

Anyone know what the 'real' torque setting is for the single wheel retaining nut is for spoked wheels?

The handbook is somewhat vague with the instruction 'hammer tight'! How very 'Morgan'!

Hello Andy

perhaps this link helps.
This factory makes som of the Morgan whire wheels.

Torque for wire wheels

Regards von Germany
Bernt

Hi Bernt,

Thank you for that. 102Nm sounds about right. I was going to call the technical people at customer services at the factory but knew common sense would prevail on this forum!

Kind regards,

Andy

That link is for conventional wheel bolts

For my S1 Roadster it was 80Nm. I checked with MMC . This is for alloys not for wire wheels.

I have assumed that the original poster is talking about knock on centrelock wire wheels? If so 80Nm would probably result in them falling off

Sorry!

Here the link for Knock-on centre caps - not the torque Info you want

Fitting wire wheels

Oh sorry. I don't think folk used torque spanners on wires. Please ignore the 80Nm.
For wires they need to be tight.

This is new to me too, my car is getting wire wheels too...

Wire wheels this link works

Go down to the bottom of the page, it says "don't overtighten them" and "As long as the hubs are fitted correctly then the spinners will self-tighten and lock as the car is driving"

The page linked to has the following line:



I have always relied on a couple of knocks with the supplied hammer or a light tweak with the breaker bar I use for removal. They do self tighten in use - to the extent that mine can be tricky to remove as my painted wire wheels “grab” the nuts.

As the text on the MWS site says:

Particularly relevant for those with 2 metre long breaker bars and custom spinner removers!

My spinner tool & breaker bar is mainly used for undoing the spinners, the long bar isn’t necessarily used for tightening.

Mine is used to undo them Richard (see picture, made from Thule roof bar , Mulfab spanner & clips).



I have a hex nut socket on a short bar to fit them. I don't like swinging hammers next to the wings.

Hi Paul,

I recall we discussed this back in May at the auto test. I have sourced a 70mm A/F socket (Facom) stocked by Machine Mart, which I am just off to buy now. My drive back from Oakmere on the 4th in torrential rain resulted in the Via Gellia road turning the inside of the wheels white (quarry slurry on the road), hence the need to remove the wheels and clean them properly. Only just walking again after the surgery so this is my first opportunity to address the issue.

I will call the factory technical department on Monday and try and get a definitive answer, which I will then post here. After a working lifetime in engineering, the thought of tightening something as critical as a wheel retaining nut 'hammer tight', frankly makes me shudder!

Thanks everyone for all the input, gratefully received and appreciated. For what it's worth, and based on experience, I suspect 110Nm is about right as all wheel nuts should self-tighten with driving. Of greater concern is getting the wheel nuts off without potentially adding the possibility of damaging bodywork when swinging a mallet.

KR, Andy

I'm with you there, John. Hence the original question.

'Hammer tight' leads to visions of damaged bodywork!

I've been using this little flogging spanner for years, so compact it fits in the car easily, never failed to shift an overtightened centre nut, or fit one without damaging 'owt

An old school mechanic once told me to clean off the old grease and redo with a thin layer of copaslip each time & to never use anything with Moly additives on centre nuts as it's potentially too slippy on critical torque threads

I carry the same tool as Jon in my Roadster. When I bought my Roadster, the front nearside nut had been overtightened. The symptoms were that it was tight all the way off, and could not be removed by hand, the spanner was needed all the way. I tested the nut on the rear, and it was fine, meaning that the damaged threads were on the hub.

When I upgraded the front brakes, I took the opportunity to replace that hub unit, which I did, and the nut now comes off by hand.

Yes I clean & redo the copper slip on the nut & rhe splines, BUT A WARNING THE SPLINES CAN BE RAZOR SHARP IF WORN.

My front nuts (ooh Matron) always seem more tight than the rears.

As promised, I made a call to the factory this afternoon and spoke to one of the shop floor mechanics who deal with wheel fitment. And this is what he told me:

Put your supplied wheel nut spanner in a vice and bend it twice to introduce a crank at the nut end of the spanner.
Grease the threads with copper slip before reassembly.
Fit the retaining nut by hand and hand tighten.
Tighten the nut with the spanner until no longer able to turn the spanner.
Strike the spanner shank until a change in tone is audible. At this point, the nut is as tight as required .

I was informed that they have NEVER used torque wrenches for wheel nut fitment and use the ‘good old fashioned spanner and mallet method’.

So there we go, a typical ‘Morganism’! There we are, a proper noun develops to become a verb!

I will attempt to measure the torque whilst undoing all the wheel nuts and see if I can establish a mean torque level. Further reporting at a later date.

Unfortunately, this will not help, as the breakaway torque (I hope the translation is correct) is very high...

We've gone through all this dozens of times over the years. There really isn't any point trying to establish the 'correct' torque to use when doing up the wheel nuts, not least because they have a self-tightening action when on the road anyway. Threads of this size and pitch can take enormous amounts of torque before deforming so all that is needed is to tighten them up by hand and then give them a whack or two.

Exactly. I love the way morgan supply a not fit for purpose spanner that needs bending

Which after you bend it as recommended, won't fit in the tool tray

Totally agree Tim, I only nip the spinners up (not tight) but always need the spinner tool & breaker bar to undo them.

Of course, you are right as the self-tightening due to wheel rotation will make breaking torque much higher than tightening torque.

Tool tray?! What tool tray. I got something that looks like a wash bag which contains the spanner and a can of sealant.

My newly deformed spanner will fit my wash bag fine! I intended to heat the spanner up before I start manipulating it to avoid over stressing the steel.

Tim, I am new to Morgan ownership, hence my question. Whilst it may have been discussed at length in the past, it is not something I am familiar with. I have worked on many vehicles over the years, two and four wheels and this is the first time I have come across a safety critical securing nut which requires ‘ a whack with a hammer’! Frankly, I find the notion totally absurd in this day and age but that it seems, is that.

I use this tool Andy, I only nip them up, not tight at all (supplied by wheel widget) but much easier for removing the spinners. I never whack them.

Mine has 70mm AF retaining nuts, not spinners. I have purchased a 70mm AF socket and have a 1m long breaker bar. I intend to do as you, Tim. I really cannot bring myself to whack anything with a mallet or hammer!

An entirely understandable sentiment, but I would urge you to consider what you would do if you had a puncture whilst on a remote lane in France well out of cell phone range and you didn't want to have to wait for recovery? It's happened to me twice. Those nuts do up flippin' tight, and some sort of shock to reach the breakaway torque is going to be needed. You are not actually hitting the car after all if you use the spanner.

The eared spinners of course were specifically designed to be directly clouted with a lead hammer and personally I like a bit of patina, to my mind it's all about the traditional appeal of Morgans.

Alas due to retirement wheelwidget is no more - does anyone else make the removal tool?

I have indeed, particularly as I elected to order the car without a spare wheel. I know it's shallow, but I prefer the aesthetics of the car without a spare wheel. I am also mindful of the fact that if one does have a spare wheel then a jack of some kind must also be carried.
The CX Plus Four has virtually no storage space so a jack becomes something to consider carefully if to be carried and that's before consideration of whether a small pump should also be carried? The car, as mentioned perviously, was supplied with a can of Tyre Weld, however, my previous experience of this is not great. Further thought on the whole issue required before I embark on a tour!

Sounds like the opportunity for the factory to put a new £300 optional part on the price list (when it should be included in the car).

Don't give them ideas!

I can make them....

If they are your usual quality Simon then that would be just perfect!

Any idea of cost?

He may have retired and enjoying some sunshine, but I know Lionel has stock left, approx ten octagonal tools, and one 3 eared tool.

But no stock of two eared spinners when I spoke to him yesterday.

I replaced the hexagonal wheel nuts on the 2010 4/4 with two eared spinners. As an engineer I just used my trusty wooden mallet to give them a few well-placed hits. Then drove down the road and back and then retightened them again - never had a problem! If they are not tight enough you will hear a clonk when you reverse out of the garage.

And yes the 4/4 was built light with no spare wheel; so I always carried, but never used, and small tire compressor and a can of sealant. I've done the same with the Plus 4 and the Six. Pays to also carry a rabbit's foot!!

Just catching up on this thread, SimonH you state that you could make this socket, are you going to? If you did I’m sure you would have many owners who would purchase one including me.

Hi all. An update.

In the end I purchased a 70mm A/F socket and a 1 metre breaker bar. First attempt to remove wheel nut resulted in the breaker bar deflecting like Robin Hood’s bow (appropriate perhaps as I am a MSCC Sherwood group member!). In the end I resorted to the trusty mallet and hammer supplied with the car. I can tell you it took quite some effort to shift the week nuts. I torqued the wheel nuts to 120NM with a large torque wrench the gave them a further quarter of a turn with the socket and breaker bar. They are very tight indeed and as they will continue to self tighten. I am confident this will be a good working solution.

Well worth removing them for an inboard fettle and a wipe with an ACF50 soaked rag though. Once a working garage solution was derived I found I could remove, clean and refit all four wheels in a couple of hours (with the aid of a 2 tonne trolley jack) which I think is quite reasonable. Wouldn’t do it more than twice a year though.

Don’t over do it, as you can ruin the threads! Also, I think acf50, wonderful though it is, is not the stuff for splines and the mating surface betwixt hub and wheel; a generous greasing is recommended otherwise you will get clonking when changing direction snd worn splines.

Yes no need to overdo it, by all means check after 50 miles or so. I use copper slip on the splines. You need a good grease not a thin oil.

Blimey John, I don’t know what makes you think I would use anything other than copper slip or similar on the splines etc. the ACF50 was wiped on the inner polished stainless steel rims and back of spokes. A lifetime of stripping and building motorcycles comes in handy ;-)

Just in case you have an old tin on the shelf...I was told many years ago by an old proper 'motor engineer' to not use Black Moly grease on spinners or wheel nuts as the Molybdenum Disulphide sort of modifies and lessens the thread grip IIRC

Good idea to clean the wires with ACF50

Apologies from me too Andy. In trying to be helpful, I misunderstood your inboard fettling!

This subject comes up with far too greater regularity causing I suspect raised eyebrows from many old school folk. Hopefully we can put this thread and others to bed with the quote from MWS who supply the centre lock wire wheels to MMC:

There are no recommended torque settings for spinners and the exact number of turns will vary from one vehicle to the next

Given the shape of spinners why does anyone think when used as originally intended there ever would be . Common sense needs to prevail, so the handbooks "hammer tight" should be sufficient advice.

I will admit to using one of Lionel's aluminium tools to save cosmetic damage to spinners but only with a 700mm breaker bar. The removal tool I carry with me is shorter still but I can still just manage to undo in an emergency away from garage.

For those with two metre breaker bars here are situations to be avoided

The design of the spinners will encourage the spinner threads to tighten when in use, eg braking. IMHO the bigger issue is whether you can get the wheels off at the roadside, if they have not been regularly taken off during a service , routine maintenance etc. I had real problems with a 4/4 I purchased with full dealer service history, but old tyres, when I came to replace them so after buying the car, the tyre fitter who had extensive Morgan experience couldn't get the spinners off, they had been on so long and become almost seized on. Two hours and lots of wood etc later the wheels eventually came off. There was no way I would have gotten those wheels off on my own, let alone at the roadside.

For me the moral of the story is not so much an issue to secure the spinners and wheels on, but can you get them off, especially at the roadside in an emergency.

Having cleaned the paint off the contact areas, mine are better to remove, but still need heat on occasion. Obviously really not practical at the road side.

I for one, need a two ear one.

This has to be the best technique for spinner removal - gentle persuasion by SWMBO . If I ever get brave enough to ask that is 🤪

Could it be the spinners have been damaged by overtightening? This is definitely a situation that requires correction. No point in carrying a spare (assuming you do) if you can't use it by the roadside.