I understand that the MY23 has better brakes. I wonder how much better and could we retrofit. If you, I wonder how for how much.

Hi, I’ve asked my dealer for a quote. They have requested the details from the factory. Planning to drive the 2023 demonstrator when it arrives to confirm it’s a worthwhile improvement. It will be interesting to hear how much the upgrade is.

I’ve been informed by the factory that it’s not possible to upgrade, as many other things have changed including the radiator.

I get the feeling that any improvements made to new CX cars will not be made available to upgrade older versions. That was the case with the exhaust anyhow.

Our 2020 Plus Six has just had a radiator change. The dealer informed us it is the latest design. Now its possible that is different again to the MY2023 cars.

Ah well, looking like I will have to take a different route then.
To me, once the suspension was sorted out (via SSL) the weak link was the brakes. They improved once the recall work was completed (perhaps I had failing seals ?) but are still not good enough in both feel and performance.
I will upgrade the brakes as I don’t want a 2023 with all of the added paraphernalia.

The brakes are not great, my aero 8 brakes are far superior, surely there are some performance pads that can be fitted?

Certainly worth a try and will be step 1, but will be surprised if it works. Let’s hope I’m wrong 😀

Hi
Our 2019 Launch Edition Plus Six has had a replacement master cylinder and a brake booster unit. And YES our master cylinder seals had failed. However while the Plus Six is a vast improvement on earlier Morgans the brakes were scary from Day One.

After the work done under warranty, the brakes, and in particular the brake pedal travel (60mm on average) was the same as before all the work. Presently the car is in the NZ Morgan dealer's workshop where it will stay until we get to the bottom of this brake problem. There will be a solution!

If MMC have managed to improve the brakes on the Y23 CX cars they surely will know what they have changed. Maybe it may not be possible, or desirable, for MMC to rectify the brake problem on earlier cars but that knowledge should be made available to all owners. I suspect that the problem could well be a mechanical and involve changing the brake pedal lever arm, hinge points etc.

The brake problem is in the same basket as the sagging suspension where the quality of the springs was the source of the problem. YES we have replaced our coil over damper units with those specified by SSL. Not only do we have the original ground clearance but we have greatly improved handling. BUT have MMC acknowledged that there was a problem? NO! Will MMC accept that the Plus Six brakes were faulty beyond the master cylinder problem? Not on your Nelly!!
Kerry

While discussing brakes.... as they are such a new invention it is so simple to just get it wrong...!

For sure the name of the game in industry for quite some time seems to have focussed on cost cutting as opposed to improving quality of componentry, which I suppose is standard thinking for an old and somewhat selective Luddite..?

I tripped over this brake fluid vid which explains is reasonable detail the variations in brake fluid and the ways in which different fluids can affect system components so thought it was perhaps worth posting..?

https://youtu.be/M6UrH_mDBrU

My Mog is a mid 80`s Trad, has no ABS and after restoration circa 20 years ago, had DOT 5 brake fluid used in it`s system, which was fully rebuilt at the time... DOT five can not be mixed with any other brake fluids. which you will know if you watched the vid.

Frustrating and a long-term blight on the vehicle and the brand....

Hi Ian
Luddite could be right in that brake fluid could be part of the problem, and YES you should get your brake fluid tested for water and replaced when required. We have already done the twice in the Plus Six.

However there is nothing in your car's brake system that cannot be retro-fitted. The brake system is simply an collection of components that starts with the brake pedal and ends with the pad gripping the rotor. To rectify the situation short of ripping the whole system out you need a brake expert with considerable experience. As with your suspension problem you went to suspension design engineers, in our case Peter and Dan at SSL. You didn't just replace the springs or the dampers, but you fitted a purpose designed system. With your brake system it is not an simple as just replacing four complete assemblies. We may well have more than one simple problem so you/we will need to work through the whole system. YES starting at the end of the system by replacing the brake pads may well be a logic, simple and relatively cheap point. And yes you may well effect some improvement.

It's worth a CRACK!!
Kerry

Hi Kerry,
New pads and brake fluid replacement it is then. As you say, it’s the logical thing to do and the cheapest option. Car currently in winter storage so won’t be done until April.
Hope you get your issues resolved. It does sound as though they are more significant than mine. In some respects I think I’ve been spoilt having driven Lotus for 15 years and they all had brilliant brakes I.e. Elise, Evora and Exiges. I am just trying to get a similar feel and performance.
Please keep us posted.
Cheers
Ian

NZplus six. Yes brakes are brakes & agree this can be sorted. My 4/4 has a completely different system but exhibited similar symptoms re brake travel. It transpired that somehow race spec rear shoes had been fitted. Also the auto adjusters were badly set up. Hence the peddle travel was caused by having to expand the shoes & then not a lot of friction as normal driving, does not really heat up the rears.
How all this came about is still a mystery as I have the invoices for standard shoes not race spec.
Anyway it was all sorted free of charge by the garage owner. Really interesting in how quickly he disassembled & rebuilt the rear brakes, without removing the hubs. But they do support some well known race teams.

Iain Litchfield is the man to talk. to re. brake/suspension upgrades for the CX range.. He did the development work for Morgan on the earlier CXs and had a package that transformed the cars. However Morgan did not follow through with it as it was too expensive for them, so they cobbled their own solution together and the result was a recall for brakes and numerous reports of saggy springs and dodgy ground clearance.
I do know that Litchfield developed springs and dampers for the CXs with Nitron and much R&D went into the Nitron package. I believe the brakes Litchfield used for the package were AP Racing but I don't know any more details. Needless to say, Litchfield is not very happy with the way Morgan treated them. but you can go to them and have all or part of the package retrofitted to your CX. This is what I am doing the early part of next year.
If you don't know who Iain Litchfield is, look him up, he has quite some resume and Litchfield Motors is a stone's throw away from the Malvern Works.

Same Litchfield that did all the Japanese import stuff when 22B and GTR was all the rage.
I did not realise that they were so close.

Did they develop the 'Godzilla' GTR ? I know the Litchfield name from somewhere...

He is probably the best known BMW tuner in the country and yes he did the GTRs and Supras etc, etc, but his workshop was full of Ferraris, Lambos and McLarens when I was there a couple of weeks ago most being race prepared. There was also a Porsche that had been so modded that I couldn't work out what it was (and forgot to ask).
He is a guru and has been in the top tier for many years.
Morgan were shortsighted (mad) not using the package he developed, as the recall must have cost them far more £££ than the extra cost of the Litchfield package over their failed solution.
Typical Morgan mentality...

ThAnks for sharing. I will contact Lichfield in the new year.. 👍👍👍

Let us know how you get on, if all goes well there could be a long queue, me for one.

So much for the new year.............I couldn't wait. Phoned this morning and spoke to Tom in service. He was really helpful and would be happy to answer any other questions from forum members.

As already shared they did some work earlier for MMC and the brake upgrade consisted of PAGID RS29 front brake pads and higher grade brake fluid. Prices £526 and £200, respectively (inc. VAT). You could save a little on the brake fluid by not going for the racing fluid. Tom indicated the major improvement came from the pads and not the brake fluid change.

We also discussed engines and he shared that they did a 420hp PlusSix upgrade last week, £600 (inc. VAT).

The lead time they need is circa 4-6 weeks notice.

All in all, to say I am interested, is an understatement. I suspect we will be visiting Lichfield Motors and MMC in July.

Thanks to Barry M for the initial Lichfield Motors info.

Good to know. Thanks for posting this info!

Brake upgrade sounds interesting, but I ain’t brave enough to go for any power upgrade…..

The 420hp power upgrade last week was me, The extra power is nice (of course) but the tune was mainly to alter the "Snappy" torque created by the Morgan map. By moving the torque curve much farther down the rev range, the car is now a delight and the power is much more progressive and most importantly, much easier and more predictable to drive - how it should have been in the first place!

Hi Barry, thanks for the information, I’ll never say never….be interested in you thoughts after living with it for a while.

Ah, I was wondering if it was you.
The power upgrade sounds sublime. I will have to get it now. For £600 it is a 'no brainer'.
How have your insurance company been with the power upgrade? Did it impact the premium much?

sorry, responding to Barry M

Ian
I would rather not answer the insurance question :-)

I work in the field of damaged cars in France. I can guarantee you that there will never be anyone who will dig into your electronic box.If you wanted to, do it and don't tell your insurer. You risk nothing.

I am too honest, I declare everything. Currently with LV, declared when fitted sports exhaust and SSL suspension and it was £50extra/mod. Suspect 420bhp will take it outside of LV underwriting and I will have to go to a specialist.

Don't forget it is not a Morgan map, it is a crate engine from BMW and is optimised to deliver low emissions during the WLTP cycle. I always say a new engine map is not just for power but also for tractability.

I am not sure that is true, as the Supra map is not the same as Morgan's, presumably to account for extra weight. It may be remapped by Toyota before sale, but it is not the same map. The Z4 may have yet another map, I don't know.
They will all be mapped to comply with specified emissions parameters, but I am fairly sure there is a degreee of customisation involved.

This thread is drifting into the matter of re-mapping the engine computer. A good topic and certainly worthwhile to explore. Strangely I find our Plus Six very docile to drive round town and the power band great but you never know what a bit of fine tuning will do. You/I don't know what changes MMC made during the production un. I do know that you cannot go in to the car computer with Toyota software - we have tried! You need to have a Morgan version.

Ian - more to the point YES change the brake pads, and while the brake fluid change may not make a big difference, change it as the brake fluid, as in our case, had picked up too much moisture and that affects hot operation.
The only question is, "Are you going to keep us waiting until July to find out if it has worked?"

Our Plus six was unpredictable when you put your foot down to overtake in auto or sports mode. It would sometimes drop a couple of gears and you would find yourself at high revs with rear wheels spinning up. This didn't happen in manual of course, but the original map made the car a bit of a baby at low revs and the turbo didn't get going until higher revs were reached. There was no lag to speak of but the boost was too low for too long if that makes sense. This led to the snappy torque that is so talked about within the B58 community.

I apologise for the thread drift.

I’ve been thinking the same….,,,,,,,i will do the brakes April but will have to wait until July for the remap.😀😀👍👍

Sorry reply was to NZPlusSix

Barry - it sounds like your engine management computer was way out of line and you were right to get it re-mapped. As I have said our Plus Six is great in every respect when accelerating, cruising, overtaking etc.

BUT when it comes to stopping then that is another story! The car is presently at the Morgan agents to be worked on until we have better brakes. In their defense I must say that they have loaned us a near new Mazda CX-5 SUV - all the bells and whistles including "self-steering"!

I would most certainly like to hear from other Plus Six owners as to their brakes and even better those who have made real improvements. The number One thing I'm trying to improve is a reduction in brake pedal travel from the 60mm I presently have. Ever other car I have have excellent brakes - the Jaguar E-Pace brakes are almost too severe.

We have factory brakes on our Plus Six and they have no discernible issues and have good feel. Interestingly, Morgan confessed to us that they had no idea why the brakes were so much better than the ones on the demonstrator, but it had been noted by several Morgan staff who had driven it. There is no excess pedal travel and stopping is progressive and predictable. Litchfield also commented on how much better they are than they expected.
I have a feeling that the pads are not the standard pads, as the car was a development car before we bought it from the factory, but I haven't had them out to check. This may not be the whole story though and as I say, no-one at the Morgan Works had any explanation.
I will still fit the Litchfield upgrade later this year, but our car's brakes seem to be a bit of a "happy accident".

Barry, it would be helpful to compare your brake system at any point with a normal so so one.

Our 2020 Plus Six came with a fairly wooden feel to the brakes from new.. After the general recall M/Cylinder replacement the brakes "feel" seemed slightly better, but not by a huge margin. The pedal travel still seemed long though. The car then had to go back shortly after the M/Cylinder replacement for another issue and I mentioned the brakes again to the dealer, who undertook further work on them.. I do not know what was done, but the brakes now feel better again, plus there is slightly reduced pedal travel. I suspect the brakes were re-bled, from my own experience with ABS on motorcycles it can be tricky to completely purge the system of all air, even with a purpose designed bleeding system. I had a BMW K1200RS which took me two days to get the air completely out of the ABS pump.

I bled my brakes a month and a few hundred kilometers after changing the master cylinder. Now it's perfect and I no longer have the feeling of having a sponge under my feet.

I am no expert on anything let alone brakes.. and always happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

Were I suffering poor brakes I might be inclined to crawl underneath and use brake hose clamps to close all the flexible lines and then check pedal travel. The idea of locking them all off is to test all of the kit involved in creating and initially distributing pressure to the system, such as servo ABS etc. Neither the servo or the abs system will operate without the engine running, though brakes should still operate with a dead engine and no ignition, just that it takes more pedal pressure to gain a "reasonable" braking.

Pedal travel with all flexible hoses locked off/clamped should be as good as it ever could be.... With possible issues and the cap removed from the fluid reservoir I would be looking for either signs of bubbles of fluid flow within the reservoir indicating possible master cylinder seal failure allowing fluid or air to escape back past the seal into the reservoir..

By releasing the clamps and comparing pedal travel on each individual brake drum/disc set-up it should be possible to detect if there might be an issue affecting one brake more than the others.

Logic dictates that if brake shoes are not correctly adjusted it can require more pedal travel/fluid displacement to bring the shoes into contact with the drums to them create the braking effect

With discs there is no adjustment to go wrong, however on poorly maintained brakes I have seen seized pistons in a calliper that stop one side of the caliper pushing it`s piston out and the pad being unable to move. in this situation it is possible that the piston(s) on the opposite side of the calliper do operate normally when the pedal is pressed forcing the pad to contact the disc which in turn forces the disc to flex to the extent that it is forced over to make contact with the seized pad on the other side of the calliper.. The effect of this feels not a lot different in relation to pedal pressure and the amount of spring normally associated with applying the brakes, however the brakes are less efficient when out on the road.

Mixing fluid types or thewrong type of fluid can cause all sorts of issues for seals, ABS etc....

Reading your post, George, I would also think that a brake system is not witchcraft.

It is good to know that I am not totally waisting my time typing and that on occasion someone might read any one of my rambles...Thanks Heinz..

I think Barry, or rather Barry's Plus Six holds the key to solving our brake problems. As we now have replacement brake master cylinders and brake booster units we must now look at the brake pads and/or the brake calipers. My guess is the Barry's development car has different brake pads fitted.

What is disappointing is that once MMC realized that the brakes on the development car were superior to their demonstrator that they did not ask WHY? Instead MMC have their dealers and clients all "chasing their tails" to get to the bottom of this problem.
Regards
Kerry

Bad when you have to say that after buying a new £100,000+, 335 hp sports car...

Fortunately we have an excellent Morgan agent in New Zealand, Pearce Bros., and they are determined to put the brakes right under warranty.

Don't get me wrong this is by far the best Morgan I have purchased, but like the first of any new model car there can be teething problems. I would just like to good brakes to stop the car!!
Regards Kerry

The Plus Four only has a front single pot calliper!

Are you satisfied with the brakes on your PlusFour in terms of pedal travel and braking performance p8mog ?

Thanks for the heads up on the Plus Four having only a single pot calliper p8mog

Even in such a situation it is possible that the disc can be deflected under braking in a situation where the rails on which the pad travels to meet the disc become seized with corrosion, which seems unlikely to play any part in the case of any reasonably well maintained Morgan.. ?

NO, The brake pedal drops about 2” on startup even after the master cylinder upgrade, thank god it’s an auto as the handbrake is a joke. But I can’t justify spending 30 grand plus on exchanging it for a MK23 model. Someone somewhere must be able to come up with a suitable alternative.

I did a small experiment, I put a small scratch on the inner and outer of the rotor, it took over 2000 miles to remove the mark on the outer and over 3000 on the inner.
The trouble is in my opinion is , the pads are to hard and the sliding mechanism isn’t covered it’s open to the elements and if left standing for a while will seize.

All this chat on brake issues caused me to try to update my limited knowledge on brake systems.... Jeez the extra degree of complexity and no doubt cost to make it safer for the brain dead to pilot vehicles on the road is somewhat astounding... For sure the days of DIY are all but done and dusted for owners of modern vehicles, except for those with a real determination and ability to get in amongst their machinery...

I have no idea of the master cylinder type fitted to the Mogs with issues, but it seems some units have an electric motor driving a hydraulic pump which pressurises a ECU controlled multi valve unit dependant on read back from wheel speed sensors.... Seems the KISS principal has long since been binned..!

https://youtu.be/RfAzB_IcWuk

p8mog, on the assumption that you have your foot on the brake pedal, it is interesting the distance that your pedal drops on engine startup, though not unusual on old style servo assisted systems which multiplied pressure applied to the brake pedal by utilising vacuum derived from the inlet manifold. I guess if there is an electric pump and ABS system it may not be unusual that something similar occurs on your Morgan..?

Also interesting that you suspect one side of a wheel disc receives more pressure from the brake pad than the other and perhaps indicated by a degree of less wear on the disc via your test... My expectation might be that the pad wear generally shows up any such situation..with the pad on one side of the calliper being more worn than the other..? As discussed earlier with a brake design where the pistons are mounted on one side of the caliper only and a rail system of some sort employed to ensure even pressure applied to the pads on both sides, any restriction of movement on the rail system will cause uneven pad wear... and thus affect braking performance.

I am again guessing that when you criticise the handbrake performance and find comfort in that your Mog has an auto box, you are typing of the ability to park safely by using the P selection which can lock up an auto box...? Whereas when driving I ever found comfort in the ability to slow down by dropping down through the gears in a manual gearbox and careful use of the handbrake lever to avoid locking up the rear wheels... All of which has been removed in the case of auto boxes and electrically operated handbrakes..?

Hard pads are generally designed to work when brakes are up to temperature as on a race track or fast road driving, where brakes are regularly and perhaps heavily applied causing the discs and pads to retain heat... The down side is that they do not work too well when cold and require more pedal pressure to create a reasonable retardation effect... The correct choice of pad should be based upon your average usage... Sorry not trying to teach my granny to suck eggs.. just that I do like the KISS principal...

These days with so many hobby vehicles laid up for long periods it would seem there may be more potential for corrosion issues affecting brake systems and electrics.

Given the amount of seals likely to exist in an ABS master cylinder unit, I can only begin to imagine the possible problems caused if ever the wrong type of brake fluid was introduced to the system...?

I repeat, I am NO expert, just thinking in type and could be entirely wrong about anything.

The simple truth is, the factory made a mistake with the braking system, if the brakes had been right in the first place, then three years the on factory wouldn’t have had to replace them.
I do hope that a replacement 4 pot calliper will be available at some point from hopefully Mulfab?

I have been thinking about this over the past. couple of days and as Ludite has said, (Paraphrasing) "Brakes is brakes" The one thing that can throw a spanner in the works of what is a fundamentally simple system, is control interference, in our case, in the form of an ABS system.
I haven't studied the Morgan system, but using only logic, I would guess there is a high chance that the issues being experienced by owners are somehow rooted in the ABS.
No-one seems to be talking about the ABS and it is technically beyond me, but it is surely a suspect in the enquiry?

As I’ve said before, I’ve never felt the ABS working under very heavy braking! Other cars I drive, under heavy braking you can feel it through the brake pedal.

ABS, ANTI LOCK BRAKING, only works when the senors located on the hub detect a wheel locking up, when the wheel locks up the ABS pump kicks in, the effect is like cadence braking in the old days when you would pump the brake pedal so you could still steer your way out of trouble, ABS would not operate under heavy braking if the wheels did not lock up. Under normal braking conditions the ABS will have no effect.

I did not know that the CX cars have ABS...Has anyone ever felt it in action on wet or slippery roads?

Mikemog6, Im with you all the way on ABS being similar to old style cadence braking, however I suspect it may be worth investigating ABS further, as for me ABS works under emergency braking much the same as it does in normal braking... The First car I drove with ABS was a Porsche 944 and I purposley put the nearside wheels on a grass verge with the offside wheels on Tarmac and conducted the equivalent of an emergency stop ... the 944 pulled up straight and true..No drama.. Much to my surprise I must admit...

As ever more than happy to be corrected.

I wonder if Litchfield's upgrades to softer pads and brake fluid involve to easy upgrade to DOT 5.1 fluid ? It has viscosity improvers for 'cold' brake feel and ultimately a higher boiling point (without the hassle of full swop to silicone based fluids)

These are the multiple pipes from the ABS unit located in the Plus Six, gets nice and warm in the engine bay...

What brake fluid is in it now. A change usually means new seals and new hoses.

DOT 4 as standard, easy to upgrade to 5.1 with just the usual flush through and bleed (which should be done every 2 yrs or so with DOT 4) compatible with existing seals & hoses etc

5.1 is not to be confused with 5 which is silicone based and should not be mixed

CooperMan, when I called Lichfield and spoke to Tom the other day, he gave two choices, the best being CASTROL SRF. I can’t remember the other. So Silicone based.
He did say that the improvement from the brake fluid was less than the pads. Given we have all had new fluid this summer, perhaps test to make sure it has not absorbed too much moisture. Assuming fluid within limits, just change pads.
Cheers
Ian

Are you sure ? In my opinion Castrol Racing SRF is a DOT 4 brake fluid.

Castrol SRF racing brake fluid conforms to DOT3 and DOT4 specification. But unless you want to operate your car under racing conditions why would you need such

ABS on my Plus 6 kicks in regularly, as I live up a very steep gravel track on side of the hills. The ice hung around before Christmas, but main roads all clear, so going down track, ABS was kicking in , I could feel it through pedal, and it wasn’t skidding down track with wheels locked. It was still an arse clenched moment though.

CLPlus4 and RichardV6, thanks for clarifying. That will teach me to quickly check on Google 😀
RichardV6, agreed you don’t need it

Based on the comments above?

If the CX brake system was weak and unable to create strong pressure then the wheels would not be able to lock up and so the ABS would never kick in. Given the comments from several people saying the system felt soft on the pedal and reports of pressure fail it would make sense.

Do we know if it is fair to say they underspec'd it or was the volume of components that arrived following the prototype being below spec? I figure they gave the prototype a good hard run a few times before they said yes. It's not like the factory team don't enjoy a good drive?

I follow a Mini forum and find the discussion around the installation of "track" discs & pads humorous. They spend ages discussing which uprated road/track pads to fit then, once fitted, moan about the fact that they are dead, noisy and numb. Before they had them fitted did they ever find the pedal hit the bulkhead? Do they really brake that late and hard?

I have fitted uprated discs and brakes to the ML63 as it weighs 2+ tonnes and I have felt fade a couple of times when in a rush. EBC are among several good vendors making aftermarket upgrades for the MB. Given the standard brakes are Brembo it's quite a step to improve things. So it has EBC uprated front discs and Yellow Stuff road/track pads plus uprated Brembo discs and Yellow Stuff pads on the back. When they are cold they take longer/harder to stop the car from any given speed. So the uprated bit is not really an improvement for the daily traffic. If I am pushing the lorry around Basingrad roundabouts on a clear day they are brilliant once warmed through. I am only surprised that the front spoiler does not have scrape marks on the bottom given how well they work when up to temp. So the benefit is only really seen in extremis. You just have to be aware of what you are looking for.

I remember doing an emergency stop from 70+ mph in a Plus Four at Bicester Heritage on the Morgan Experience session in August. Assume that had standard brakes. Could feel the ABS kicking in and stopped quite quickly and kept pretty straight with a little input. Haven’t noticed any ABS yet in normal winter breaking on my car, but still limited miles and not pushing it for obvious reasons.

So easy to become confused with all this chat...

Best not to think of alternative brake fluids, stick to manufacturers specifications.

The days of owners modifying modern Morgans is fast disappearing along with the generation of baby boomers who thought modifying their Morgans to "improve" them was very much a part of the Morganeers culture.

Part of the modification culture seemed to be based upon bragging rights as opposed to actual driver demands on the vehicle... Racing spec anything incorporated into a road car can create a pig of a machine to spend time in when in traffic.

Morgans are light vehicles and unless driven hard will take a while to get race spec pads up to their best operating temperature on the road..if ever..?

I have no idea as to which type of ABS system might be fitted to any Morgan.

Either long travel or soft pedal would seem to go against normal driver expectations. If a soft pedal is combined with poor retardation performance on the road, I would have to understand why this could occur and exactly what caused it, also what repair techniques were involved to resolve the issue...

With brakes being the primary safety system on any car my expectation would be that even in a situation of total electrical or ECU failure that the hydraulic aspects of the system would provide "reasonable" retardation effect. Though logic determines that on an electrical system failure, an electrically operated handbrake activation may be lost..! Worth looking into the design of that..?

I suspect that any MOT equipped garage could take no more than 15 minutes to check the efficiency of braking on each wheel for you, including handbrake performance, for a reasonable cost. No need to wait till an MOT is due.

A lot of sense there George!
It would be interesting to know from those who have long pedal travel, whether that shortens if the brakes are pumped repeatedly. If so, I would look to re - bleed. Just because it’s been done during recent factory recall, doesn’t guarantee it was done successfully. (due to time pressures etc)?

The following is just my opinion.

A soft brake pedal often pointed to air in the system, sometimes this gives a feel of longer travel.
In the days prior to ABS and servo assist you could check this by rapidly pumping the brake pedal, if the pedal went hard and travel reduced and then when left for 5 to 10 minutes went back to a soft pedal again it pointed to air in the system. Even a very small amount of air can make quite a difference on a brake system.The ABS pump itself can be difficult to completely bleed depending on its type and its position in the brake circuits. I do not know what make/type of ABS pump Morgan have used in the Plus 6 ( no parts scematic available to owners ). My experience with motorcycle early ABS pumps was that it took quite a few goes to get the air out of the pump, some even had bleed nipples on the pump itself. There was also a set sequence to bleed the early ABS systems.
In my previous post I mentioned that after our Plus Six M/Cylinder replacement I was not happy with the pedal travel/feel and asked the dealer to look at it again. I am fairly certain they re-bled the system. After their second intervention the brakes on the Plus Six are acceptable and better than pre M/Cylinder change.

Lastly, ref poor handbrake.. Our Plus Six initially had an excellent handbrake, but was noisy from cold in the area of the NSR wheel. The noise sounded like rubbing but gradually stopped after 1 to 2 miles as everything warmed up. The dealer looked at it and reported that the brake pads needed cleaning and light greasing in their retaining area. After this work the brake noise from the NSR wheel area was gone, but the handbrake was lousy, would not hold on a 5 deg incline, so it went back to the dealer and they adjusted it.. Its now back to working well and its not producing noise. So from this I am inclined to think that adjustment on the Plus Six handbrake is borderline and does not take much to either work well or not at all.

Deejay, thanks for commenting. Had I that degree of sense in my yoof, I would have saved a lot of cash spent on modifications that demanded further modifications and ultimately threw many a practical machine out of balance and made it a pig to ride/drive except when operating the very narrow window of performance I had created.... and that I did so man more times than once....

Dave, in my limited experience air in the system is usually associated with leakage, or may be found when the system requires bleeding after having work carried out on it and not being properly bled.... For sure some machines can be far more ackward to bleed than others..

The soft pedal that can be realy scary, is the one where as an example... After lay-up, where a caliper may have partially seized and is holding a pad or pads against the disc to the extent it is no more than rubbing, perhaps not in any way first noticed when one fires up the Mog to head out for that first run in the sun, brake pedal feel s fine, brakes seem to be working well, then after a few miles, the pedal hits the carpet under braking.... The rubbing pad has heated the caliper and disk and in the process boiled the fluid, which can manage in a shorter period of time if the fluid has not been changed as recommended, and as a result has a high water content, the water boiling at a lower temperature than good condition brake fluidwould ever do so...?

As always just thinking in type..

Ref the air, yes totally agree. But its quite possible that A: The factory did not get all the air out at time of manufacture and B: The dealers could have had the same issue when the M/Cylinder recall happened. Bleeding some ABS systems can be tricky. This may account for a small % of cars reporting poor feeling brakes and longer travel. I am not saying this is the total reason, as there seems to be quite a lot of reported variation in brake quality. But it could be one of the reasons for some cars. Also the CX cars are relatively new, most will not have done high milage, so the hardware should be in good to fair condition...

That's a bit low spec, ok for a Ford Fiesta, Is the P Six a better spec ?

Agreed. I thought they only used single piston floating calipers on the rear of modern cars as they better support cable operated handbrake action as well.

I think we are boxing round the question that the thread posed "Are the brakes on the M23CX cars better?"

Somebody needs to test drive a Plus Six that the dealer claims is up to the specs re braking performance, then test drive a 2023 Plus Six demonstrator. Original reviewers of the Plus Six commented on the soft pedal and the long brake pedal so it was a known. What we don't know is an accurate comparison between the models. If there is a difference then we need to find out what has been changed.

Presently my dealer is in contact with MMC as to what to change on our car to get maximum brake performance. Watch this space!
Kerry

Looking forward to the answer...

RAMBLE ALERT..!
As I typed a while back it is so easy to get confused with all this chat, and I am perhaps more guilty than most when it comes to rambling on...(-:

On the other hand the chat has caused my old brain cells to become more active than they might otherwise be, which at my age might be considered worthwhile.. (-:

I suspect we have all learned by now that mistakes abound in discussions, I know I have typed a few myself and been grateful for them to have been corrected by more knowledgable folk.

Back to fundamentals on brakes... or at least trying to brake (no pun intended) down the complexities of operation into a form of more basic understanding..?

As suggested best to stick to manufacturers spec on much, especially brake fluid. No harm in seeking better understanding and if so motivated this link has had some work put into simplifying things, even if the presentation is less than professional..?

https://youtu.be/SdnSlBG71G4

As no one has yet asked, I think DOT as in brake fluid and much else equates to Department Of Transport..?

Bleeding ABS.... I have only ever bled two ABS systems and managed to do so without causing issues which may just have been down to luck..? Both NON-MORGAN.

The likely more modern and complex system was on a sports car where each calliper had two bleed nipples, one for each side of the calliper which had four pistons in total. Apparently during bi-annual fluid changes it seems possible if not likely that the garage mechanics will seek to save time and reach through the spokes of the wheel and use the outer nipple on the caliper to bleed it leaving the harder to reach nipple untouched...?

OK call me a cynic by all means, but it seems quite often on this marque that the inner and harder to reach brake nipple is often found to sheer off when disturbed for bleeding purposes whereas the outer and easier to reach nipple often loosens without issue...

If I might be in any way correct in my assumptions, it would then seem obvious that only one side of each calliper bled in such a way will have the benefit of it`s brake fluid being replaced and in such circumstances over time and if the same flawed bleeding process is followed then dependant on the passage of time who knows what age the brake fluid might be contained within the inner section of the caliper and just how much quicker it might come to the boil under braking creating some degree of increase in pedal travel...Hmm..?

If you come across seized nipples that seem likely to sheer, or have a caliper with a sheered nipple, there as specialists in removing sheered nipples, though the task is simpler if the nipples is not sheered off, but not impossible.. Even on painted callipers, where I believe some form of ultrasonics is involved in the removal process. Such specialists can also supply original nipples or stainless if preferred...

Bleeding... As has been typed it seems there may well be a variety of processes suggested dependent on which system is in use..?

I used gravity and nothing else... and it has worked out well to date, brake pedal felt fine and vehicles pulled up straight and true.. I had removed two callipers, the front offside and the rear nearside and had closed off both flexible pipes with clamps to save loosing all the fluid with whatever complications that might have created in the ABS system.. After replacement of each calliper, starting with the rearmost one first and with the fluid reservoir topped up first released the clamp on the flexible, followed by opening up one nipple at a time on that calliper, the one closest the flexible hose opened first and left opened watching the fluid begin to appear in spurts until the air bubbles stopped spurting, hopefully indicating that side of the calliper was full of fluid, I then checked and topped up the brake fluid in the reservoir, and then followed the same process on the outer side of the calliper, after which I again checked the reservoir. I then checked the pedal travel which seemed OK, it took a couple of pumps to extend the pistons in the caliper I had just bled to the extent that the brake pads made firm contact with the disc. At which stage I then let the system sit for a couple of minutes and checked the brake pedal action for travel and to check if it would pump up and change the length of travel, which it did not...

Exactly the same process for the replacement and bleeding of other calliper with exactly the same results... After topping up the reservoir and replacing it`s cap, I then fired the engine up and again tested pedal travel, which felt fine, followed by a road test which again seemed to confirm I had created no issues when I bled the brakes..

Using no more than logic... It seems that for the brakes to conform to my expectations of fail safe design, that all circuit ABS control valves would surely be opened, to then allow the master cylinder to create pressure to all circuits were the brake pedal pushed down, with no need for the engine to be running or electricity applied to the ABS control system..? Thus with the cap removed from the reservoir gravity bleeding with a bit of forethought seemed to work well enough for me.. I stress again this was NOT on a Morgan.

As for attempting to find answers on brake efficiency one car against another, even with the same driver on exactly the same road surface and in exactly the same weather conditions tyre type and on and on and on... I suspect the variation in assessment could be considerable..? As suggested in my last I suspect any MOT or garage with brake testing equipment can compare and provide readings for all four wheels independantly of each other or in combination, along with handbrake performance on each wheel.... Thus anyone who cares to can create reasonably accurate comparable readings for brake performance to share with others, the only variable other than the performance of the brake testing machinery, would perhaps be the amount of pedal pressure required to be applied create the readings obtained..?

Pedal travel can be relatively simple to measure reasonably accurately..?

My guess is that UK construction and use, if not EU regs, will contain a number of specifications for brake usage and efficiency figures as a minimim for a variety of vehicles as no doubt will MOT regulations..?


Again using no more than logic with zero professional training....As for what the problem might be with Morgan brakes if any.... I would hope that they were bled as required before they left the factory for anything other than that would be too much to ask me to accept as in any way reasonable from a motor manufacturer.

Simple logic would also seem to dictate ..As the MMC do not manufacture brake components other than perhaps the pedal arrangement and linkages specific to Morgan, that MMC are then dependant on other manufacturers supplying DOT approved parts, it would seem to be incumbent upon the MMC to consider the compatibility of the combination of all the parts used to make up the whole system, including the type of brake fluid that the MMC would then specify for use in the vehicles brake system..?

With ABS in circuit given the many valves and seals in that system let alone all the seals elsewhere in the system, the choice of fluid seems best not to be taken lightly..?

As ever more than happy to be corrected if I have been wrong in any of my assumptions

Let's come back to the detailed question of whether the brakes from MY23, which are supposed to be better, can be converted to MY22 and earlier.
The question for me here is what components are actually installed.

Which brake fluid does MMC specify?
Which brake booster is used?
Which brake master cylinder is used?
Which brake caliper with how many pistons?
Which brake pads are used?
Which ABS is installed? Definitely a four-channel system, as you can see from the photo.

Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the brake disc and caliper.

Are the components on the PusFour and PlusSix the same?

Maybe one or the other member can answer one or the other question.

Once the questions for the different model years up to MY23 have been answered, the question of retrofitting can be answered.

The MY23 brake system cannot be retrofitted, I believe that the ABS unit is by Bosch. I would hope that on the MY23 Plus Four it would be twin pots on the front rather than the single pot as on my MY21 Plus Four.

Didn't the factory try flipping the existing front calipers to a reverse (upside-down) orientation on the early Plus range if owners complained of poor brake feel / squealing ?

Apology for not having the ability to answer any of the logical questions and thanks for posting the pic Clemens. Interesting that the brake fluid reservoir is remote from the master cylinder, perhaps selected relative to maintaining the lowest possible bonnet line.

Another worthwhile question might be related to whether or not the ABS unit has a pump and if it`s ECU is built into the unit.

I did a bit of web wandering and was surprised to find a variety of faults related to Bosch ABS control units some where it affected speedometer read out, though found NO Bosch unit on the site below listed as being fitted to Morgan.

Bosch ABS Pumps & modules (ecutesting.com)

Seems the only mention of the brake rectification process carried out by the MMC has been related to a soft pedal and master cylinder replacement... No mention of MMC carrying out known work on any other part of the brake system..or have I picked that up wrong..?

Having noted the Litchfield comments...To further expand in the theme of modification for those interested in such pastimes and that Morgan might even have made use of something like this..? :-

ABS M5 Kit | Bosch Motorsport (bosch-motorsport.com)

A neighbour had two Nissan GTR`s from different eras, and told me he had planned to have the underside of the older one ice blasted and returned to look as new, the quote for all the work was reported as circa £10k with quite a few months to wait before they could take the car in.... Could all just be neighbourhood chat, though the cars were very real.

I think that was just to stop the squealing at low speeds Jon. After the mod they then only squealed in reverse

This is what I understood by the mod.

DOT (in brake fluid) comes from the US standard Department of Transportation test for boiling point

Can be confusing for the UK users as DOT (in roadbuilding specs) is Dept of Transport, and even MOT which was Ministry of Transport

Luddite as far as I can see the ABS has an ECU and certainly a pump on the other side of the block as I know ABS systems. Have unfortunately no better photo ... which I made during my visit four weeks ago in the factory

thanks Thierry for the picture

So there could be software issues with the ABS ecu or the main ecu, assuming they talk to each other, both or either of which could be causing excess pedal travel and/or inefficient braking. You will need someone cleverer than me to sort that lot out IF that is the case!

I may have imagined this, but I'm sure I read somewhere on TM that someone had an excessve pedal travel after the brake cylinder fix, took it back to the dealer who re-bled the system and they then had a massive improvement. Can't remember who!

By the way, the Plus Six has 4 pot calibers (2 pistons on either side if the disc). I cannot tell the make of the calipers as they are sprayed yellow with a Morgan decal and no manufacturer marks can be seen from outside the wheel.

Cooperman thanks for confirming and adding info re the DOT acronym.

Thierry, thanks for your pic of the ABS unit confirming it has an integral pump.

Clemens with the benefit of your pics, it seems that the master cylinder is of the dual circuit type, and operates with servo assistance.

As ever I claim no expertise, I come here in the hope of learning.

I suspect the dual circuit master cylinder will supply braking pressure to two wheels on each circuit.

With the engine running and thus supplying vacuum to the servo, the servo will multiply the pedal applied pressure, which should provide all braking power required and which alters braking performance relative to the variation of pedal pressure applied by the driver.

In a situation of servo failure, increased pedal pressure is required to equal the same braking effect as was the case when the servo was operational.

With the car stationary and a foot applying pressure to the brake pedal, then the engine started, it can often be the case that the pedal will move further under the originally applied pressure, suggesting that an increased amount of pressure has been applied to the brake circuit..?

If any one hydraulic circuit fails, i.e due to fluid leakage, then both wheels on that one circuit will loose pressure, the remaining two wheels on the other circuit will still have braking power applied relative to the pedal pressure applied, however I suspect the pedal travel will increase before pressure build up in the remaining operational circuit is achieved.

I expect if one circuit fails, a brake failure indication will appear on the dash, and the relevant signal sent to the ABS unit`s ECU in order that it operates according to the way it has been configured to operate it`s valves in a circuit fail situation....?

I do not know the lay out of dual circuits configuration on new Morgans, could be diagonally across the car or front and rear fed separately.

This vid seems to provide a reasonable generic explanation of ABS operation for any one wheel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUZWwMm7nY

I spent some time wandering the web in an attempt to define the ABS unit`s hydraulic pump motors exact function (if fitted) and failed to do so to my own satisfaction/understanding.

if anyone knows the exact function of the pump, I would be grateful if they could educate me/us.

If you watched the vid via the link above, it suggests the purpose of the pump is to "return" fluid in a pulsing action back up the same line that is supplying pressure to any one circuit of brakes, these being the pulses which can be felt through the brake pedal when the ABS unit is called into action.

I do wonder if any fluid is being "returned" as suggested in the vid..? It seems more likely that the pulsing of the valve is that which is felt at the pedal and it is the pump that generates the pulsing pressure felt while at the same time the valve is being electrically pulsed to restrict pressure to the brake at risk of locking the wheel, the pump relieving the pedal generated pressure at the wheel by working against it, described in the vid as "returning" fluid..???

Given that I suspect any one of the two lines supplying pressure generated by the master cylinder to then merely pass through the inactive ABS unit and on to the two wheels in that one circuit, It would seem that if/when the ABS unit is called into action, that "pumping" fluid back up the line to the master cylinder would affect the brake pressure being applied to both wheels on that one circuit..?

I have found web site suggestions that the ABS pump supplies pressure to the wheel brakes, as opposed to "returning" fluid to the master cylinder as in the vid, or perhaps more likely to be making pulses felt through the pedal to advise that the ABS unit is active..?

As is ever with ECU controlled units they can be programmed to operate in a variety of different ways relative to the variation of inputs at any one moment in time, and trying to apply simple electro/mechanical logic is unlikely to cover all possible operational scenarios.

To add to the complication of gaining full understanding, it seems manufacturers may be unlikely to provide a step by step guide as to the way the ECU`s outputs are designed to operate relative to input signals, tending to quote intellectual copyright protection as a reason for not providing information on the programming/configuration of any ECU`s control strategy...? All of which creates probable misunderstanding when using electro/mechanical logic when attempting to understand the stages of operation of any particular control unit..

With the above in mind it seems possible that a few different interpretations of actual operation of the same unit may be found out in the www..?

Always happy to be corrected if I have got anything wrong.

Hi Luddite, perhaps the term hydraulic pump is simply confusing. In an ABS system, this is an eccentric pump, so a motor with an eccentric bearing. This is exactly the unit that is called M in your video and the downstream eccentric pin. I hope my explanation is understandable ... despite my limited english

Your English is far better than my very few words of German... I had trouble trying to find the words to explain my thinking and although I am a Scot, Engilsh is my native language..

Thank you for taking the time to respond. In my web searches I learned of the pumps method of producing pressure, though I was unable to find out exactly what the hydraulic pressure it created was actually used for when the ABS system was activated...? There seems to be some different explanations as to its purpose out in the www.

The purpose of the pump is only to generate the pressure that would otherwise come from the brake pedal. The ABS, if it is active because a wheel indicates zero rotation, separates the pressure from the pedal on the brake pistons and the pressure from the pump takes over this task. About the four valves in the ABS block is then controlled on which brake disc pressure is exerted or not.
Another mode of operation of the pump does not exist to my knowledge.



Here is another video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfAzB_IcWuk

Have first inserted the wrong video. Now it fits ... sorry

At last CLplusfour as stated the facts, I have been watching with amusement some of the misleading comments, ABS is not TC traction Control or any other form of anti skid control it just stops the brakes locking up so you can steer your way out of trouble under severe braking when the wheels lock
I have had ABS ECU failed and the brakes still functional normally.under normal braking.

Well done CLplusfour

Clemens, great vid, thanks for posting..



As it seems such a simple matter to make mistakes, I am not of the type to be amused by "misleading comments" such as
" ABS is not TC traction Control or any other form of anti skid control it just stops the brakes locking up so you can steer your way out of trouble under severe braking when the wheels lock"

My limited understanding is that ABS is primarilly designed to prevent "skidding" of any or all wheels that might struggle to grip on a road or other surface under braking..?

Also ABS function seems designed not only to maintain the ability to steer out of trouble under braking on a poor road surface, but also to assist in braking efficiently in a straight line in tricky conditions when otherwise wheels might lock-up, potentially causing loss of directional control..?

As ever more than happy for my thinking to be corrected if/when I get things wrong.

ABS prevents skidding for braking. Traction control prevents skidding when accelerating.
I will probably repeat myself but a second bleeding of the brake system greatly improves braking. My plus four now behaves like a normal car.

Agree ref bleeding, same thing on our Plus Six..

This month i am going for the overhaul . I will ask the bleeding again.
We will see the results later.

I wonder how many have heard of or better been taught cadence braking which when performed in a practiced manner maximised braking action in conditions of minimal grip by taking advantage of retardation before tyres completely lost grip then quickly repeated in a dabbing action. In so doing, as well as stopping in shortest distance, it allowed some degree of steering in an emergency.

ABS simply seems to be an automatically applied and electronically monitored version of this efficient form of braking in marginal grip conditions.

I learned that technique in the 1960s and still employ it today (in all our cars). Especially when approaching a junction (e.g. to turn left) because it causes the brake lights to flash -- as a warning to the idiots behind who insist on getting just a couple of feet away while I'm completing the turn.

On the off chance that there are any here who might be interested in looking at ABS units in a bid to get to grips with possible issues, I found this vid to be rather interesting in terms of the software configuration.

In this case a replacement ABS unit was fitted by a garage to resolve a problem and apparently the vehicle still had issues the garage seemed unable to resolve. It seems this guy may hire himself out as some sort of higher level tec, who specialises in resolving digital issues...

I found it interesting the number of sequences involved in using the programmer/scan tool that were involved in resolving the issue, any one of which if not performed in precisee sequence could have created an issue..?

To save all the chat if you beam in at circa 02:10 you can follow his processes.

https://youtu.be/0aacrGIAQYo

Interesting..?

That is exactly right

Just how ABS works is not the question unless at this very time you are skidding on ice or in the NZ mud on the road!

I would like to hear from someone who has driven a 2023 Plus Six as to how the brakes were especially in comparison to older model Plus Six.

I understand that the 2023 version also has Traction Control which once again you will not need unless you are skidding on ice or mud!

All I want is short brake pedal travel and more positive braking!
Kerry

Kerry I'm afraid I can't answer that question for you. In Germany are still no MY23 for a test drive available. I am the next week or the week after next at my dealer near Stuttgart to pick up my PlusFour. I will ask when that is possible.
Can imagine that in UK or directly in Malvern a test drive is possible earlier. Maybe a TM member from the area has the possibility to report

I prefer Cadence to ABS, which of useless in snow and ice on downhill sections, much better to use the old fashioned seat of the pants 'feel' for when you have grip or not, ABS just cuts braking off far too early in some situations

why not just take a suspect car down to your MoT station where the equipment exists to measure the effectiveness of the brakes and take the opinions out of the subject?

The problem with this sort of discussion is that doubt feeds on doebt. Its a bit like someone saying to you in the pub "does this beer taste off to you".

The first production CX’s must be due for their first MOTs soon so let’s see what happens? It should answer many questions.