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Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key #772016
20/03/23 07:53 AM
20/03/23 07:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 282
Preston, Lancashire
Saxonian Offline OP
Learner Plates Off!
Saxonian  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 282
Preston, Lancashire
Just recently one of my car keys has stopped turning off the immobiliser on my 2019 Plus 4 GDI.

Starting procedure is "touch end of key to the ignition key block" (I mean the plastic end of the key where the RFID chip is)
Immobiliser light goes out - insert key - start engine.

Did this several times the other day - and immobiliser light didn't go out - therefore non starting car swear

Got my spare ignition key - procedure as above - immobiliser light goes out - car starts no problem happy3

From reading the forum and my simple understanding, the RFID chip in the key is "inert" - There is no battery in the key (basically like the security tags on whisky bottles / clothes etc in shops).
So in "theory" - nothing can go wrong with the chip?

Thoughts?

[Linked Image]


Ian S

2019 Sports Green Morgan Plus 4
2019 Gunmetal Mercedes 220 CLA
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: Saxonian] #772017
20/03/23 08:16 AM
20/03/23 08:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,826
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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DaveW  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,826
South Yorkshire
The chip is inert. No battery. But sensitive to temperature, and super sensitive to distance from the sensor ring.

In theory both keys should respond the same, although 1mm difference in location in the key would be enough to make that difference.

Remove the cowl, and check that the sensor ring is as far out towards the key as possible.


DaveW
'05 Red Roadster S1
'16 Yellow (Not the only) Narrow AR GDI Plus 4
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: Saxonian] #772021
20/03/23 08:46 AM
20/03/23 08:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,914
Suffolk, England
John V6 Offline
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John V6  Offline
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Suffolk, England
As Dave says that is a well known issue.


JohnV6
2014 Brooklands Edition Roadster "Brookland's Belle" #5 of 50
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: DaveW] #772030
20/03/23 09:45 AM
20/03/23 09:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 282
Preston, Lancashire
Saxonian Offline OP
Learner Plates Off!
Saxonian  Offline OP
Learner Plates Off!

Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 282
Preston, Lancashire
Originally Posted by DaveW
The chip is inert. No battery. But sensitive to temperature, and super sensitive to distance from the sensor ring.

In theory both keys should respond the same, although 1mm difference in location in the key would be enough to make that difference.

Remove the cowl, and check that the sensor ring is as far out towards the key as possible.



I physically touch the red section of the key (pic above) to the ignition barrel - so no problem with distance


Ian S

2019 Sports Green Morgan Plus 4
2019 Gunmetal Mercedes 220 CLA
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: Saxonian] #772037
20/03/23 10:07 AM
20/03/23 10:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,100
East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Offline
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RichardV6  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,100
East Harling, Norfolk UK
The RFID is a passive transponder usually embedded in the key but can be standalone as with M3W. The car immobiliser transceiver in the steering column sends out pulses of a very weak RF signal at 13.56 MHz which the transponder in the key bounces back modified with its unique code. The transceiver gates out any incorrect code but allows correct to disable immobiliser. Being a very weak therefore range sensitive signal added to the anomalies of RF transmission there are many factors contributing to it not functioning correctly.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - Morton
1966 Land Rover S2a 88 - Lenny
1945 Moto Guzzi Airone
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: Saxonian] #772041
20/03/23 10:27 AM
20/03/23 10:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 118
UK
SCX358G Offline
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SCX358G  Offline
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Posts: 118
UK
Would the RFI chip in they keyfob of a 2019 car be truly inert ? I understand it does not need a battery as it derives its power from the incoming RF signal, but would it perhaps have an EEPROM to store the particular code for that car and some digital processing circuits. So there would be active components (in the transistor sense) that could fail, rendering the key inoperative. Though it does seem that super sensitivity to key proximity is the main fault mechanism for the immobiliser not being unlocked.

Does anyone know exactly which chip is used in the keyfob ? Just curious (as ever....)


Dave
Blue 4/4 1969, Green +4 1953
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: Saxonian] #772051
20/03/23 11:35 AM
20/03/23 11:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,539
Lampeter, Wales
Jon G4LJW Offline
Talk Morgan Enthusiast
Jon G4LJW  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,539
Lampeter, Wales
This is one version of a car key RFID system:

https://cecas.clemson.edu/cvel/auto/AuE835_Projects_2011/Velankar_project.html

It may be possible for the capacitor to lose its ability to hold charge.


Last edited by Jon G4LJW; 20/03/23 11:35 AM.
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: Saxonian] #772067
20/03/23 12:49 PM
20/03/23 12:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,826
South Yorkshire
DaveW Offline
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DaveW  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 20,826
South Yorkshire
Ian's key is not the same as my 2016 key. No red block on mine, the transponder is in a drilling at the key end, and covered over with a sort of epoxy filler.


DaveW
'05 Red Roadster S1
'16 Yellow (Not the only) Narrow AR GDI Plus 4
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: SCX358G] #772070
20/03/23 12:58 PM
20/03/23 12:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,100
East Harling, Norfolk UK
RichardV6 Offline
Talk Morgan Sage
RichardV6  Offline
Talk Morgan Sage

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6,100
East Harling, Norfolk UK
Originally Posted by SCX358G
Would the RFI chip in they keyfob of a 2019 car be truly inert ? I understand it does not need a battery as it derives its power from the incoming RF signal, but would it perhaps have an EEPROM to store the particular code for that car and some digital processing circuits. So there would be active components (in the transistor sense) that could fail, rendering the key inoperative. Though it does seem that super sensitivity to key proximity is the main fault mechanism for the immobiliser not being unlocked.

Does anyone know exactly which chip is used in the keyfob ? Just curious (as ever....)

Not inert but maybe passive Dave in the sense it uses none of its own energy. The RF energy comes from the car. Probably simpler than you imagine although likely a programmable chip.

FWIW just found another source which suggest transceiver frequency is 433.92 MHz in Europe so bottom end of UHF band.


Richard

2018 Roadster - Red/Magnolia - Morton
1966 Land Rover S2a 88 - Lenny
1945 Moto Guzzi Airone
Re: Plus 4 2019 (GDI) - Isolator / Key [Re: Saxonian] #772150
21/03/23 09:02 AM
21/03/23 09:02 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 450
North Yorks
John07 Offline
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John07  Offline
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 450
North Yorks
On my 2018 key I took the pill out,turned it through 180deg and moved the working end beyond the body of the key and stuck it on the outside of the key with silicone. Then put some heat shrink around it.
Just put the key in the barrel and it works first time 99% of the time.
Edit. PS, the heat shrink does need replacing every year to 18 months.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by John07; 21/03/23 09:37 AM.
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