Just come across this as the emissions specification after the recent visit from the ministry on the M3W.

How does this translate into the UK emissions bands for vehicle excise duty (car tax)?

Salcombe

Are you sure you have this right as it must be running on fresh air. For comparison a Prius is 92g/km?

Well...I hope it isn't 384g/km

Does'nt sound right if that equates up to 384 as you say. There is a specification update on the Mogwire site with speeds, weight etc. where this was listed.

It would make the tax disc very expensive, I think there is a mistake somewhere.

The specification on the Mogwire site must be incorrect.

They also list the horsepower as 82 vs the original quoted 120.

It probably won't be very green CO2 wise...motorbike engines, especially large twins don't tend to run as cleanly as car engines. I seem to remember a figure around 260 quoted at one time.

Maybe it's 0.384kg
Wouldn't surprise me if Mogwire had the '.' in the wrong place...

Mogwire does seem a bit tabloid and I am not sure where they get their information from. Phone hacking? Perhaps they should be interviewed by Leveson.

Maybe the Mogwire specification refers to carbon monoxide (CO) emitted rather than (CO2) hence the confusingly low value. Who knows?

Note the difference:
CO = Carbon Monoxide (Fatal gas, data from Mogwire)
CO2 = Carbon Dioxide (global warming gas, data used for Road tax)

The CO2 figures are related to and can be estimated from the Fuel consumtion.

There was a figure published when Clarkson scribbled a brief (positive!) review a couple of months back. Might have been Sunday Times or similar but can't remember. The figure given there was about 214g/Km CO2 or similar. That's the only time I've seen something quoted as far as I can recall - no idea if it was right or is being re-tested / reassessed.

That would still be rather high but would be more consistent with other comments above. I don't think 384 g/Km is possible - that would mean about 16 mpg.

Unless Clarkson was driving for the emissions tests?

Appears that UK road tax will end up as either £260 or £460 (first year £580 or £1000), depending which of those two CO2 emissions figures is correct (that's assuming that attempts to qualify for tricycle classification -under 450Kg kerb weight - have failed. As a trike, it would have been £74 pa.). Ouch!

I understand from someone who was at the factory recently that they are taking the weight issue very seriously, and are weighing each component in the car to see exactly where the weight is, and they seem confident that they could easily reduce the weight to the necesary level to get into the cyclecar tax band, time, however will tell!

Car levels of tax are a huge dampner and will go a long way in spoiling the ownership experience.

Im surprised that Morgan would have made such an error as that is a huge difference in expense passed onto the customer for someone over on that side of the pond. Fortunately for those of us in the US, it doesn't work that way. I do wonder if as time goes by that Morgan will make 3W that reach under the 450Kg limit for those of you over there. Quite possibly, Morgan may have already fixed these issues as it wouldnt be the first time that Mogwire was not correct.

Also, I would be shocked if the CO2 numbers are that high considering how much S&S does with emission standards both for their company and how much other companies pay to have S&S help them with emissions. BTW, the current lineup of HD motorcycles, the highers CO2 I could find was 147.6, with more of them being in the 120 range. I would be shocked that the S&S motor was that much higher.

This whole Road Tax thing mystifies me. There need to be a 'Fairness Factor' built in by the Boffins (with half a brain).
I have seen a Massive Ford Based Camper Van and a recent Ford Puma Engined Land Rover SWB Defender, both taxed for £125.00

Has anybody tried to contact S&S directly to ask them? It would be in their own interest to correct any misinformation being put out, we could also ask why the power has mysteriously shrunk from 115bhp to 80bhp - according to Mogwire anyway.

"Mogwire"? .... .....

....

If the tax is too dear
Just tax half a year........

The figure is CO not CO2 it seems. Where that leaves the banding I am not sure, but as you say perhaps a 6 months disc in the first year is a way of keeping the costs down.

Well in the UK with no heater, windscreen or roof you may as well tax it for the better 6 months of the year and keep it tucked away over winter.....and save money

So, is Mogwire not very highly thought of? Why?

Taxing for half a year of course misses the point, maybe if the tax is £75 I can still tax for half a year and save even more!

Shall we just say that there are a number of inaccuracies published there-in. These are not irregular, either...
It can be a handy source of information, but only if you are prepared to validate any info.

Cheers,

just never trust the "wires" in your "morgan"

No, I'm slowly replacing mine

Hey Guys?
Are we Talking 'Car Tax' or 'Motorcycle & Sidecar' Tax?

And what does the Equivalent CC 'Bike' cost to Road Tax nowadays ?

Motorbikes cost £74 per year

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

M/C and Tricycles are well down the page Frank.

Cheers,

Just heard from my Dealer that the M3W tax will be £215.00 p.a. (plus £55.00 which I suppose is additional for the 1st year). As far as I'm concerned that's a pretty good result and he goes on to say that the necessary documentation will be with him next week to register my car.

will try to be faster (belgian ministry is on strike monday,
so if I loose=their fault)

Does that old law still apply that you can drive a 3W on a motor bike license . Just a thought as it used to apply to the Reliant . Now thats put the mog among the ,judge for yourself Im off .

Presume then that the M3W is still over the 450kg weight limit, and unable to be taxed as a Trike.

What seems odd is that I can't see £215pa in the list of rates on the DVLA for modern vehicles at all (unless I'm missing something which is more than possible!)

Malcolm T

I couldn't see this rate, apart from pre-2001 registered cars. I'm told that it will be registered as "M3W Body Tricycle, and wheel plan 3".

So far I haven't been able to confirm this information from the Works, so I'm as confused as you!

No! Until Oct 2000 if you passed a motorbike test, you got B1 automatically. B1 is a cyclecar 550kg or less. Pass a motor bike test now - you don't get this category.

A car licence, group B includes B1. New Morgan is a B1 vehicle.

Note the 550kg weight only applies to the licence needed, and not to the taxation or MOT class. The new trike is a class 4 (car) MOT, but few class 4 MOT stations will have the gear needed, so the new owners are best advised to seek a MOT station that is class 3 (light three wheelers) and class 4.

The plot thickens! We are lucky to have a 3-wheeler owner to explain the intricacies to us Martyn!
At least we'll have 3-years to get up to speed on the MOT requirements.

What your UK driving licence means:
Driving licence groups

Good guide to law on three wheelers:
http://www.trikeshop.co.uk/trike_law.htm

Should cure anyone's insomnia

I was starting to get information overload before you listed those two...
Work wants me to take on a number of courses that have no relevance to what I do now, or am ever likely to do in the future.
I'm not getting very far with my environmental scrutineer training...
There's only so much one poor little tired mind can accept.
My brain needs a defrag...

Has this been confirmed by the factory today. I was told by a source that we both know that they were registering some vehicles today and the relevant boxes to tick was unclear

In answer to your question about confirmation from the Works John?

Thats not bad at all........next thing....insurance!

According to http://www.mogwire.com/ today:
"The first M3W was successfully UK road registered and passed the UK governmental requirements"

I now want an official confirmation from Morgan...

Do you know what the law is on front number plates for Trikes is Martyn, do we have to fit one on the new M3W?

for me very simple:
or: NO WAY
(I hardly drove my roadsterV6 with front nr-plate
once almost forgot to put it back on when entering the EuroChunnel)

willing to pay the fines, because: have you seen the beauty of a Belgian nr-plate?????

This is one of those, "I thought I did" moments!

My answer would have been, "yes, you do need one in the UK". My understanding was that only motorbike derived three wheelers - ie with a single front wheel for the most part are exempt from a front number-plate.

One does see Grinnal Scorpions without a front number-plate but I assume they are stretching the 'motorbike derived' designation to the limit.

I won't say never, as things fall off all the time but I've not seen any classic Morgan three wheelers without a front numberplate in the UK.

But - I have seen a few shots on new Morgan three wheelers without one, and been told second hand that Morgans were saying one was not needed. But that was second hand, and could be like their apparent 'understanding' of the convoluted weight regulations

I'm told in the UK lack of a front numberplate where one is needed is a £30 fine and no points. Probably why some Ferraris have no front numberplate, their owners can afford repeated fines (note though, if is a 'personalised plate' DVLA might take it back...).

Still think you need one really, but there are some doubts.

Will the M3W need a front number plate?
The answer seems to depend on whether the law thinks it has a body that is car-like. If it looks like a car then it needs a front NP, if it doesn't look like a car then it must not carry a front NP, unless it was made before 1st September 2001, in which case it may have a front NP if it likes. This means that the pre-war original M3Ws, which once upon a time had to have a front NP under English law, have not needed one since 2001, but can carry on showing one if they wish.
I think the current law is The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001. For the purposes of these regs the M3W is defined as a motor tricycle:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/regulation/2/made
Section 2 (1) says a motor tricycle means a vehicle having 3 wheels symmetrically arranged.
For a motor tricycle, section6 (5) of the regs says:

(5) In the case of a motor cycle or a motor tricycle which does not have a body of a type which is characteristic of the body of a four-wheeled vehicle—

(a)a registration plate must not be fixed on the front of a vehicle if it was first registered on or after 1st September 2001, .
(b)a plate need not be fixed on the front of the vehicle if it was first registered before 1st September 2001.

So, if the M3W looks like a car, these regs do not apply, but if it does not have a car-type body then the regs must apply.
In my view, the M3W does not have a car-type body because it has received (last Friday) type approval for the road without meeting the rules required for a car: it has exposed exhausts, a pedestrian-unfriendly exposed engine at the front and so on... The registering authorities must have assessed it as a vehicle which does not have a car-type body. Therefore, it seems to me that if we put front number plates on our new M3Ws we will be in breach of Section 6 (5) of the Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001.

Clear as mud?
Any other views out there?

Notlob

Looked at regulations and they are badly written but my take is:
In the case of a motor cycle or a motor tricycle which does not have a body of a type which is characteristic of the body of a four-wheeled vehicle

will not cause the courts to have the same view as you. This says, 'characteristic' not compliant, and my take on the body style is a body that has twin front headlamps and parallel seating is 'car like'.

You may get away with not having one for a while, but I think the MOT inspector could well fail it for not having one.

It would be neat if, instead of a license plate, one could attach a tube across - like a continuation of the longitudinal tubes, but with a small rise to it (5cm?). It could be used to attach a bash plate to, or even those badges some people like.

I agree, it all hangs on how we interpret that pesky phrase
"a body of a type which is characteristic of the body of a four-wheeled vehicle"
If the law interprets it one way we get fined for having a front number plate, but interpret it the other way and we get fined for not having one!
Sounds like we had better wait for the MMC to issue a ruling based on sound legal advice that we can hope they will have taken and that can form a safe harbour for us when we get stopped by plod!


notlob

I've sent an email to MMC as mine should be being registered by them this week, asking what thier official view is on a front number plate.

Hopefully I'll get a prompt reply...

Ya reeli goona put a plate on ya nooooze?

I heard back from MMC this morning and the short answer is that they are waiting an official reply regarding the front number plate and its fitment in the UK. As soon as I hear further on this issue, I'll post accordingly.

As it's my intention to run without a front number plate, I did ask if the Works could get some Burt (timing) struts made up to act as bumpers on my car. Matt is drawing up a couple of suggestions and once I see them I'll let you know. Apparently, MMC like the idea as they are thinking of offering them as an optional extra in the future.

burt struts sound like a good addition, though I dont know how much is going to hit low enough to make a difference.

Any news on the road tax and what it'll be classed as?

tax in .BE
first year = 517,27euro
second and following = 52,27euro

got to get a new insurance quote, due to lower Kw on CoC
it'll be lower than 227euro (quote for the higher Kw)

guess running an Aeromax now looks like

I think this pic from the works yesterday may answer the front number plate question

The two that has been delivered to Sweden has also got the "number plate mounting plate" even if there is no doubt about us not needing a front plate...maybe it is a...bumber

A bumper sticker plate

got my "tax" papers yesterday:

anual tax: 52,27 euro
on the road tax (first year suplement): 61,50

to compare:
for an Aero, that "on the road tax": 10 000,-euro