Talk Morgan

Compensator dilema.

Posted By: Dab of oppo

Compensator dilema. - 13/10/19 04:57 PM

Hi All

Got the motor out today and stripped the compensator out to see what was going wrong.

The only thing I could find was the big nut that screws onto the crank shaft that holds it all together was loose! Not even finger tight. Harley D. quote 140 lbs/ft for this clamping nut but I cannot find out what it should be on the X-Wedge.

So the nut had come loose which stopped the belleville washers from exerting their force against the tri-lobe wheels allowing them to ramp over each other stopping drive to the flywheel.

After cleaning and inspecting all the components nothing looks worn except the tips on the lobes. So if the nut had not come loose there would not have been a problem even after 19,000 miles.

Dilema:

Do I

1. Replace the spring pack and lobe wheels and carry on with the original compensator design.

2. Fit the Centa compensator with the inherent problems that has.

3. Go the Krazy Horse route with Z4 doughnuts.

Your thoughts please.
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 13/10/19 05:09 PM

[Linked Image][Linked Image][/url[url=https://www.tm-img.com/image/eaU6a][Linked Image][/url[url=https://www.tm-img.com/image/eaj4Q][Linked Image]
Posted By: Laurens

Re: Compensator dilema. - 13/10/19 05:19 PM

Hmmm if you keep on driving with the old design you need to keep on greasing all the time.
The Centa has shown his own weak spots
Are there any owners with enough mileage to tell if the Crazy Horse solution is reliable in the long term ?
But ......... I'm missing the Phil Bleazey solution on your list.
If I was you I would overthink that last one.
Posted By: nippymog

Re: Compensator dilema. - 13/10/19 05:43 PM

A dilemma indeed as your HD unit has proved so reliable to date, and it sounds like it has not failed on this occasion and the loose nut was at fault.
I would be tempted to simply replace as is maybe adding some method to ensure the nut doesn't come loose in use.
Then reassess in another 20K miles - by that time the KH solution should be a known factor. smile
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 13/10/19 08:53 PM

I wonder if MMC has any old stock compensators kicking around in the back of the stores they want to get rid of for a small fee🤔
Posted By: planenut

Re: Compensator dilema. - 13/10/19 11:06 PM


Morgan probably do have a pile of old HD type compensators as I remember getting some core value back on my dead one when I had the Centa conversion done about 5 years ago. I know you have been very meticulous with the greasing of the HD compensator and it has lasted a remarkably long time but they generally don't last many miles, you may have been lucky. In addition to that they are not very good to drive with the HD compensator fitted, from memory, very clunky.

If you did go for Phil Bleazeys mods you will need to add the cost of a Centa unit to the price as you will require one to modify. Rob Pike seems happy with his KH BMW M4 Doughnut conversion when I spoke to him at Cadwell Park a few weeks ago and I assume that you don't require any of the Centa parts for that conversion. Not sure if Krazy Horse are doing the conversions at the moment though, that may rule out that option? If you are happy with the HD compensator clunking then Nippymogs idea, or your option 1, has a lot going for it and lockwire the big nut. It would certainly be the cheapest option.
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 14/10/19 06:09 AM

I must have been lucky not to have any clunking or backlash from the HD compensator, it always felt solid.

Took ages to clean all the grease out of it though, it was well packed. Quite a lot had migrated right up the crank and into the stator/rotor assy. which lubricated all the bushes, a bit like a semi solid oil bath.

You might have a point with the lock wire though. The item in question is in picture 2, bottom row 3rd from the left. It is a big hollow bolt with an internal thread that screws onto the end of the crank.
Posted By: nippymog

Re: Compensator dilema. - 14/10/19 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dab of oppo
The item in question is in picture 2, bottom row 3rd from the left. It is a big hollow bolt with an internal thread that screws onto the end of the crank.


Could you do some more pics of it please Lee, to understand what the options are for locking it.
Also if possible, what is around it and stationary relative to it when in situ.
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 14/10/19 08:59 AM

Yes, I’ll mock it up when I get home tonight and take a few photos.
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 15/10/19 05:57 AM

A few more pictures of how it all goes together.[img]https://www.tm-img.com/images/2019/10/15/IMG_6572.jpg[/img[img]https://www.tm-img.com/images/2019/10/15/IMG_6573.jpg[/img[img]https://www.tm-img.com/images/2019/10/15/IMG_6575.jpg[/img[img]https://www.tm-img.com/images/2019/10/15/IMG_6576.jpg[/img]

It was the big hollow bolt on the last picture that came loose.
Posted By: Swedewheeler

Re: Compensator dilema. - 15/10/19 10:50 AM

Dap of Oppo...I think you were lucky not to have a total internal meltdown......

Sorry to hear about the problem but an interesting question it is!! I have a friend (lurking in here somewhere) that is facing the same question.....Which compensator to go for??

I myself have had the Centa Compensator conversion.....not due to any failure to the HD compensator but due to stator/rotor failure after which our dealer in Sweden recommended the Centa kit conversion. This was last winter. but since I have learned that the stator/rotor issue probably was due to the well known issue with engine running hot due to the restricting baffles in exhaust and air filter constriction. My friend also had the stator/rotor meltdown but a couple of months before me and he had the original compensator installed....needless to say he had a yet another stator/rotor meltdown.

So his question is also which compensator to go for? Almost the same option as you:

1. Replace with Centa Drive original version

2. Replace with Centa Drive Phil Bleazey version?

3. KH version?

Have you not had any problems with the HD compensator and overheating of stator/rotor?? Or did you remove the cats baffles early in you M3W ownership?

Input from anyone with KH version compensator or Bleazey kits would be very appreciated!
Posted By: Swedewheeler

Re: Compensator dilema. - 15/10/19 11:11 AM

BTW..I still have my old compensator in a box in my garage.
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 15/10/19 05:00 PM

Hi Swedewheeler,

No issues whatsoever with the HD compensator, I always kept it lubricated with JCB high pressure blue grease. Which after inspecting the internals was doing a sterling job as there is no wear or discolouration on any of the parts. It did take an awful lot of cleaning out though.

Back in 2014 I removed all the exhaust baffles but kept the cats in and fitted the G56 air filter.

This allowed the engine to breathe so have not had any issues with pinking or running too hot since then.
Posted By: Dan_Lockwood

Re: Compensator dilema. - 16/10/19 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dab of oppo
Hi All

Got the motor out today and stripped the compensator out to see what was going wrong.

The only thing I could find was the big nut that screws onto the crank shaft that holds it all together was loose! Not even finger tight. Harley D. quote 140 lbs/ft for this clamping nut but I cannot find out what it should be on the X-Wedge.

So the nut had come loose which stopped the belleville washers from exerting their force against the tri-lobe wheels allowing them to ramp over each other stopping drive to the flywheel.

After cleaning and inspecting all the components nothing looks worn except the tips on the lobes. So if the nut had not come loose there would not have been a problem even after 19,000 miles.

Dilema:

Do I

1. Replace the spring pack and lobe wheels and carry on with the original compensator design.

2. Fit the Centa compensator with the inherent problems that has.

3. Go the Krazy Horse route with Z4 doughnuts.

Your thoughts please.




Sorry you've experienced the down side of the Harley type compensator setup in your M3W.

A few years ago JV had a similar situation and he upgraded to the Centa and sent me his old Harley comp unit. Upon tearing down the system and looking things over, it was clear that a very small portion of this design really doesn't get any grease to speak of, even when pumped full.

Your rotor shows the same signs of internal comp wear that JV's did.

[Linked Image]

This is the picture of his original rotor. You can see how it's been worn with the end cap of the compensator housing.

CLICK HERE FOR ORIGINAL POST PICTURES AND BETTER DETAILS

The bottom line is these two key components.

[Linked Image]

The sprocket is what is resisting, or compressing the Bellville washer springs. When the crank nut is tightened, it tightens upon the splined hub shown above, forcing it against the rotor on the crankshaft. You can see that it will be near on impossible to get grease into this area when it's metal to metal and under extreme pressure from the spring pack.

When the two mating surfaces wear, as in JV's case here, the sprocket which is the first part to go into the compensator housing, gets closer to the rotor and when worn enough, will wear metal to metal against the rotor. Dap, this is already showing in your pictures. At least in a Harley there's primary oil flinging around inside and that does get into the cracks giving better lubrication than trying to pack grease into the compensator.

Even with a brand new Harley style compensator from Morgan, these two parts are what go first and then allow the twin ramps to become loose because of the new extra space given to the spring pack due to the worn two parts. In JV's case, I measured around .065" (1.65 mm) of wear on the two overlapping parts. Belleville spring packs do not move very much and they're only under compression of around .080" (2 mm) to keep all things tight.

I have a bike project on my lift and it has an Ultima 113" v-twin with the same crankshaft design as the S&S as well as pre-07 Harley v-twins. When I installed the parts onto my crankshaft I would rotate the components without any force at all; although they did tighten up a bit on the ramps, but had WAY too much free play because of the wear.

So Dap, I think it's time to upgrade. You'll get a new rotor with the package, and you need one now.

I can see some wear on our splined hub, but you don't show the underside of the sprocket to be sure. There are many places in this design to wear and multiple places with a bit here or there will loosen the Belleville spring pack to a point that you have now.

Good luck and let us know how it all works out for you.

Have a great evening!
Posted By: rcmatt

Re: Compensator dilema. - 16/10/19 12:43 PM

really a poor use of the HD unit. On our heritage softail the compensator is in the clutch/primary chain oil bath
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 16/10/19 05:34 PM

Hi Dan

I don't have any wear on the splined spigot or chain wheel sprocket unlike the ones in your pictures, which do show a definite lack of lubrication.

The grease in my unit had gone all the way down to where the crank comes out of the engine and had even packed the magnetic rotor.

What I find most bizarre is the magnetic rotor does not have any splines which I would have thought it should have. So the only way in which it rotates is to be clamped firmly between the shoulder on the crank and the back face of the splined spigot/ compensator housing.

As the hollow bolt came loose it has allowed this clamping pressure to relax and there fore allow some slippage between these 2 components which has left a small amount of surface scarring. If the rotor had splines this would not have happened.

Does the HD rotor have splines I wonder.

Do you think the lobed rotors are serviceable with the burrs dressed off?

I wonder if the HD SE compensator would fit as the belleville washer pack on the SE compensator looks to be much more robust than what I have.

Decisions, decisions.....
Posted By: Dan_Lockwood

Re: Compensator dilema. - 17/10/19 11:47 AM

Dap,

Sorry to hear that you have no splines in your rotor. There has to be splines. It cannot rely upon just the clamping force of the compensator.

[Linked Image]

ALL Harley type rotors have splines, even my '76 Shovelhead has them.

Because of your loose crank compensator nut, and the fact that you did NOT have significant wear on the sprocket and splined hub, the wear on the outside of your rotor is still very evident.

IF your comp did not wear like JV's did, the rotor scuffing wear has to be from it being loose on the crankshaft spline. Running like this would eventually chew up the soft metal rotor splines and you would then just have a round hole. I would check the crank for wear in the splines and also scuffing on the stator may have happened if the rotor was very loose and could wobble. The clearances between the magnets in the rotor and the stator are quite close. I doubt there would be any operational damage to the stator, but cleaning it up should be done if scuffed. Also, is there any major metal dust in the magnets?

If there is some wear on the cranks splines, it will be just where the rotor thickness is, about 2mm to 3mm wide. The good thing is that when you go to the Centa conversion, the new hub adapter and rotor will be a full spline coupling and just a couple mm will not be any issue at all. But if your splines are worn a bit, fitting in new stock rotor could be a problem getting the splines to hold like new.

I don't know if you have intentions of sticking with the Harley style compensator or updating to the Centa with maybe Phil's pucks, but now would be the time to do upgrade to the Centa. I know it's a LOT of money, but no more greasing and out of sight out of mind mentality with the Centa unit. Just drive now and be happy! smile
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Compensator dilema. - 17/10/19 11:56 AM

I don't know what happened there but your img tags, except the last one, had lost the final ] (square bracket). Below in the quote I have put each one on a separate line and added the final ]
Originally Posted by Dab of oppo
A few more pictures of how it all goes together.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

It was the big hollow bolt on the last picture that came loose.
Posted By: rcmatt

Re: Compensator dilema. - 17/10/19 11:56 AM

Dan is absolutely right. your rotor should have (probably did have) splines
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 18/10/19 01:15 PM

Thought it looked a crap design.

It looks to have chattered on the crank when the locking bolt came loose and wore them away, the grease must have absorbed the filings.

Got me home from Grindelwald like that and never had a charging problem.

Thankfully the rotor is made from chocolate so no wear on the crank just a little surface polishing.
Posted By: Phil Bleazey

Re: Compensator dilema. - 19/10/19 08:06 AM

Here are some observations and an idea but please be aware that I have only seen pictures of this set up and never had my hands on one. My experience is with Velocette motorcycles and in 50 or more years I have never had any problems with this design of Cush drive. The Velocette engine breathes through the drive side main bearing giving a continual oil mist to the heart of the Cush drive in the primary chain case. this is just one of many areas which leak oil and if there is no leaking then the primary chain case has to be drained of oil occasionally.

The trouble with grease is that it does not easily return to a mating face when it has been scraped, squeezed or pressed out. Add to this the centrifugal force effect which causes the grease to be thrown to the outside of the cylindrical housing leaving any air to collect in the middle, where the bits needing lubrication are and you see that it is a very difficult thing to keep lubricated.

If an oil slot were cut across the face of the splined sleeve where it butts up to the shoulder of the crankshaft then the engine would breathe along the splines delivering a small but continuous flow of oil to the centre of the Cush drive mating parts - right where you need it. You might also need a hole or two drilled at the bottom of the splines, half way along, to let the oil spray out directly between the two cam faces. The down side of this would be the need to drain it off regularly but this could be done by replacing the grease nipple with a drain plug and no more onerous than regular greasing? Would the assembly be sufficiently oil tight to keep the oil in till you drained it? - don't know. Be aware of the balance issue if you replace the grease nipple with a drain plug.

On the subject of balance, I note that your alternator rotor has been balanced ( row of drilled holes round one side). If the whole assembly was balanced together and your rotor turned independently when it's splines failed this could have caused problems.

All conjecture really but I hope it gives you some ideas - that type of Cush drive works on so many motorcycles I can see no reason why it won't work on the M3W - just needs some thought.

Good luck

Phil
Posted By: Swedewheeler

Re: Compensator dilema. - 21/10/19 09:58 AM

My old rotor had the axel with splines welded to the rotor? I also believe that the welding process was part of the problem with the magnets coming loose which caused my meltdown...:-)

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 21/10/19 03:55 PM

I won't be welding them together then.

If the splined bush is case hardened I can't see welding it will do it much good either.
Posted By: Dan_Lockwood

Re: Compensator dilema. - 22/10/19 03:46 PM

Phil,

The rotors are always balanced separately. They are replacement part so they cannot be balanced "with" other parts.

Swedewheeler, I've never seen a rotor welded to the splined hub like yours. And yes, I would say that the welding was not a good thing for the magnets.

This whole Harley style compensator setup the way MMC designed it is so bad, it's almost laughable. Like Phil said, grease in a spinning housing is not good. Harley's use the comp inside their primary chain drive and is lubed by primary oil flinging about. But in the more recent years with larger cubes and hp, the comps have worn out exceedingly fast. Harley went through about 4 generations in about three years. Baker Transmissions has even come out with their own comp to sell as Harley's is still a crap shoot if it lasts or not. The newer Harley primary covers have a web cast into the outer housing cover that directs a flow of oil into the center of the comp to better oil it. Harley's last version when used in a previous model year has a plastic glue in web that directs the oil just as the new cast in webs do.

My old '76 Harley Shovelhead 1200cc motor only puts out about 55 hp and that comp will last forever. So put 2L of displacement into the comp and all bets are off.

Something similar to the Centa or Krazy Horse coupling style is going to be the end all to the comp issue. I still say my Lovejoy idea that still allows for "some" wind up would work well without any moving parts other than an input shaft bolted to the outboard diameter and the output shaft to the inner bolts of the coupling.

Dap, I think it's time to invest in the new Centa with Phil's pucks and be happy to not have to shove grease into the housing anymore.

Good luck with your comp.
Posted By: Bitsobrits

Re: Compensator dilema. - 22/10/19 06:03 PM

Dan,

The Centa compensator is essentially a Lovejoy coupling. Different form, but very same idea.
Posted By: rcmatt

Re: Compensator dilema. - 22/10/19 06:40 PM

From all I have been reading are you sure it is not a love/hate coupling cheers
Posted By: Phil Bleazey

Re: Compensator dilema. - 22/10/19 08:41 PM

Love / Hate for sure!
Posted By: rockabilly john

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 02:12 AM

Harley Davidson make different compsaters of different designs for different power outputs.

They are all bathed in oil.

So, no lube = failure someware down the line.

Not easy to come up with a design if you were not aware of the foiabels of the engine.
No excuses though.
The BMW M4 coupling looks the way to go.
Pity it was not invesgated earlier.
Posted By: Obie

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 07:01 AM

If the electric 3 wheeler is ever resurrected it will eliminate many of the drivetrain issues the ICE sufferers from, although knowing Morgan it will have its own unique set of issues!
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 07:29 AM

Still awaiting a reply from MMC regarding availability of parts or cost and availability of the Centa kit.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Obie
If the electric 3 wheeler is ever resurrected it will eliminate many of the drivetrain issues the ICE sufferers from, although knowing Morgan it will have its own unique set of issues!
They would want to replace the S&S with something equally charismatic... say a Tesla coil? wink
Posted By: Bunny

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Dab of oppo
Still awaiting a reply from MMC regarding availability of parts or cost and availability of the Centa kit.
Might be worth giving Nobby at Krazy Horse a call. He knows his stuff and KH keep a good stock of parts.
Posted By: PaulR

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 11:38 AM

Dab
If it was me once I had the Centa kit I would pop over to Phil Bleazey for the mods to enable you to change the rollers from under the car in 30mins
I now plan to change mine yearly regardless of condition.
Posted By: Laurens

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by PaulR
Dab
If it was me once I had the Centa kit I would pop over to Phil Bleazey for the mods to enable you to change the rollers from under the car in 30mins
I now plan to change mine yearly regardless of condition.

Paul
Do you have the Bleazey kit ?
Posted By: PaulR

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 12:15 PM

Laurens
Yes I do..
a happy customer
Posted By: rcmatt

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Obie
If the electric 3 wheeler is ever resurrected it will eliminate many of the drivetrain issues the ICE sufferers from, although knowing Morgan it will have its own unique set of issues!


Maybe wiring issues happy3
Posted By: LightSpeed

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 04:08 PM

Does Lucas the Prince of Darkness have anything to do with it?
Posted By: Dan_Lockwood

Re: Compensator dilema. - 23/10/19 05:17 PM

This is what the Lovejoy unit looks like.

[Linked Image]

The three outboard holes would bolt into the rotor/hub attached to the crank with the big nut. The inner three bolts would then bolt to the shaft that would be coupled to the flywheel adapter shaft. This allows for a bout a 7.5 degree wind up under max torque of 408#ft. I know, the torque pulses are greater, but I would still think this is a good fit for a trial run on someone's M3W.

The BMW does not allow for any wind up and is basically just a "slightly" flexible coupling that will allow for very slight misalignment, but again, no wind up for torque pulse. This going to basically be a direct coupling setup.

Oh well, the Centa is the ole "bird in the hand" scenario and probably a good enough one at that, with Phil's pucks.
Posted By: Bitsobrits

Re: Compensator dilema. - 24/10/19 12:35 AM

Ah, yet another variation on the two solid parts with an elastomer in between theme....

And in my profession, when one says Lovejoy coupling, we are thinking this:


[Linked Image]

Lovejoy in fact makes many types of vibration resistant, torsional stress reducing and misalignment mitigating couplings.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Compensator dilema. - 24/10/19 06:42 AM

Indeed - https://www.lovejoy-inc.com/products/jaw-type-couplings/ is quite interesting. Some of these are limited in RPM, although the material options for the coupling was insightful: wonder when you'd use non-dampening bronze in a coupler?

SOX (NBR) Rubber (Standard Insert) – Nitrile Butadiene (Buna N) Rubber is a flexible elastomer material that is oil resistant, resembles natural rubber in resilience and elasticity.

Urethane – Greater torque capability than NBR (1.5 times), provides less dampening effect, and operates in a smaller temperature range. Good resistance to oil and chemicals. Not recommended for cyclic or start/stop applications.

Hytrel® – Flexible elastomer designed for high torque and high temperature operations. Excellent resistance to oil and chemicals. Not recommended for cyclic or start/stop applications.

Bronze – Rigid, porous oil-impregnated metal insert exclusively for low speed (max 250 RPM) applications requiring high torque capabilities. Not affected by extreme temperatures, water, oil, or dirt.
Posted By: Phil Bleazey

Re: Compensator dilema. - 24/10/19 03:10 PM

Oilite bronze for slow revving extreme torque applications like oil expellers, drilling rigs, tunnel borers and the likes.

Anyway, I would be very wary of fitting anything that would be metal to metal contact when the rubbers fail. At least with the Centa, when it fails you have to get the vehicle recovered but there is little damage other than simple replacement of the rubbers. Metal to metal could lead to a very expensive disaster indeed.

Phil
Posted By: Chris99

Re: Compensator dilema. - 25/10/19 12:48 PM

My Centa rollers, looking good after 26,000 miles:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: atalante83

Re: Compensator dilema. - 25/10/19 03:52 PM

Good
Posted By: Laurens

Re: Compensator dilema. - 25/10/19 05:05 PM

When I see this picture I can only draw the conclusion that most of us don’t have to worry much when we have the Centa fitted.
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 25/10/19 07:20 PM

They look very good indeed especially after all those miles.

Looks more than likely I’ll have to sack the HD comp and fit the Centa.

I had become quite fond of the HD comp. in a bizarre sort of way now that I have become more intimately aquatinted with its moving parts.
Posted By: planenut

Re: Compensator dilema. - 25/10/19 10:26 PM


Inspecting through the grease hole, my Centa rollers look good after 12,000 miles but I will find out for sure when I take the engine out next week for Phils mods. My rollers were fitted just over two years ago and were supplied to me by MMC as "improved trial" items. They seem to have lasted better than the original early 2015 items that fell apart after just under 10,000 miles. Maybe all you need to do is have post 2017 Centa rollers fitted? That said, Phil Bleazeys mods do much more for the feel of the car than just improve drivetrain life.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Compensator dilema. - 25/10/19 10:45 PM

My 2015 has had frayed bits of rubber come out of the inspection hole. Naturally come warranty time the dealer said something like "nothing to worry about sir" and "you would know if they had failed" (yes, I found bits of rubber smile )... but so far no issues with performance. I have to fit the Phil-mod for the bevel box before I worry about the rollers...
Posted By: Chris99

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by planenut

Inspecting through the grease hole, my Centa rollers look good after 12,000 miles but I will find out for sure when I take the engine out next week for Phils mods. My rollers were fitted just over two years ago and were supplied to me by MMC as "improved trial" items. They seem to have lasted better than the original early 2015 items that fell apart after just under 10,000 miles. Maybe all you need to do is have post 2017 Centa rollers fitted? That said, Phil Bleazeys mods do much more for the feel of the car than just improve drivetrain life.



My original rollers are from 2014.when mine was one of the earliest cars to be upgraded from the Harley to Centa.
Posted By: Bunny

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 09:25 AM

Chris, your rollers really are in remarkably good condition for the mileage. You are obviously doing something right!
I was recently with Mr Bleazey replacing the rollers of a 11000 mile 2014 car - one roller was completely broken up and the other three weren't far behind. confused2
Posted By: Laurens

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 09:56 AM

Would it make sense (or is it possible) to make the ˋgrease hole ˋ bigger so we could easily exchange the rollers like on the Phil Bleazey upgrade ? Or is it only possible to cut this hole bigger when the engine is out ?
Posted By: Laurens

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by planenut

Inspecting through the grease hole, my Centa rollers look good after 12,000 miles but I will find out for sure when I take the engine out next week for Phils mods. My rollers were fitted just over two years ago and were supplied to me by MMC as "improved trial" items. They seem to have lasted better than the original early 2015 items that fell apart after just under 10,000 miles. Maybe all you need to do is have post 2017 Centa rollers fitted? That said, Phil Bleazeys mods do much more for the feel of the car than just improve drivetrain life.



What kind of different feel will it give the Phil Bleazey rubbers or upgrade ? And if I’m correct informed PaulR does have the Phil Bleazey upgrade but with the original rubbers ? !
Posted By: Phil Bleazey

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Laurens
Would it make sense (or is it possible) to make the ˋgrease hole ˋ bigger so we could easily exchange the rollers like on the Phil Bleazey upgrade ? Or is it only possible to cut this hole bigger when the engine is out ?

It is not just the bigger hole that makes it possible Laurens. the middle rotor of the Centa unit has to be assembled the other way round ( as it should be ) with the removable flange on the outside of the unit. see here for details http://www.bleazey.co.uk/M3Wstage3text.htmlhttp://www.bleazey.co.uk/M3Wstage3text.html

Phil
Posted By: Phil Bleazey

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by PaulV
My 2015 has had frayed bits of rubber come out of the inspection hole. Naturally come warranty time the dealer said something like "nothing to worry about sir" and "you would know if they had failed" (yes, I found bits of rubber smile )... but so far no issues with performance. I have to fit the Phil-mod for the bevel box before I worry about the rollers...


Drive carefully Paul, the rubber rollers exert huge sideways force on the intermediate shaft when any one ( or more ) starts to disintegrate and if you have the original set up, the shaft only has one bearing - at the other end! That said most of my customers arrive with various degrees of disintegration of the rollers and no reports of that bearing failing yet.

Phil
Posted By: NeilL

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 10:39 AM

Paul - IMO this is clear signs of the Rollers breaking down - its a warranty issue scared
Posted By: planenut

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Laurens


What kind of different feel will it give the Phil Bleazey rubbers or upgrade ? And if I’m correct informed PaulR does have the Phil Bleazey upgrade but with the original rubbers ? !


I have driven Bunnies car after the Bleazey Centa mods and it is smoother than before and smoother than my similarly aged M3W. The transmission seems to cope much better with low rpm and starting from still is (almost) like an ordinary car, quite an achievement with a lumpy V-twin and some built in transmission wind up. I think it is worth doing, so I am soon smile . PaulR tells me that there is very little difference, that he can detect, between Phils rubber inserts and the standard ones. He has tried both as it is a quick job to change them after the mods. Being able to replace the inserts easily is one of the major plus points I think.
Posted By: nippymog

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by planenut
Originally Posted by Laurens


What kind of different feel will it give the Phil Bleazey rubbers or upgrade ? And if I’m correct informed PaulR does have the Phil Bleazey upgrade but with the original rubbers ? !


I have driven Bunnies car after the Bleazey Centa mods and it is smoother than before and smoother than my similarly aged M3W. The transmission seems to cope much better with low rpm and starting from still is (almost) like an ordinary car, quite an achievement with a lumpy V-twin and some built in transmission wind up. I think it is worth doing, so I am soon smile . PaulR tells me that there is very little difference, that he can detect, between Phils rubber inserts and the standard ones. He has tried both as it is a quick job to change them after the mods. Being able to replace the inserts easily is one of the major plus points I think.




+1 , given impressions from my car after Phils upgrade
Posted By: Dab of oppo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 06:20 PM

This is one of my dilemmas, with the old HD comp. there was no slop, wind up or clonking in either forward or reverse, it was just like a “normal car”. Solid drive from crank to gearbox.

Does anyone suffer these characteristics with the standard Centa comp?

Still not decided which way to go.
Posted By: Chris99

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 08:44 PM

I recently drove a new M3W with <700 miles and a MMC stage 1 exhaust. It was a revalation of smoothness compared to my pre replacement 30k+ car.

It'll be interesting how my car performs with a new clutch and rollers and hope to get it back next week so will report then.
Posted By: Ricardo

Re: Compensator dilema. - 26/10/19 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Chris99
I recently drove a new M3W with <700 miles and a MMC stage 1 exhaust. It was a revalation of smoothness compared to my pre replacement 30k+ car.

It'll be interesting how my car performs with a new clutch and rollers and hope to get it back next week so will report then.


I think this could be the car you’re referring to Chris 🤓
https://youtu.be/6GBXC0vDfWs
Posted By: Chris99

Re: Compensator dilema. - 27/10/19 03:41 PM

thumbs

Filmed mainly on Ranmore Common between Dorking and West Horsley - a lovely bit of road woohoo

The car's for sale at Bell & Covill and the colour looks even better in the flesh smile
Posted By: PaulR

Re: Compensator dilema. - 27/10/19 09:53 PM

Lee
If you update to the centa drive plus Phil Bleazeys kit it will feel exactly as you are used to but without the hassle of greasing..
Posted By: M3W55

Re: Compensator dilema. - 27/10/19 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Chris99
I recently drove a new M3W with <700 miles and a MMC stage 1 exhaust. It was a revalation of smoothness compared to my pre replacement 30k+ car.

It'll be interesting how my car performs with a new clutch and rollers and hope to get it back next week so will report then.



Tell us more. The B+C model is a Euro 3, so it does not have the gentler Euro 4 spec.
Posted By: Chris99

Re: Compensator dilema. - 28/10/19 08:27 AM

Mine also has the MMC Stage 1 exhaust and airfilter but also the 596 high lift cams.

At low to meduim revs the cars felt quite similar but mine has more punch at higher revs/higher gear due to the increased torque from the cams.
Posted By: LightSpeed

Re: Compensator dilema. - 28/10/19 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Chris99
Mine also has the MMC Stage 1 exhaust and airfilter but also the 596 high lift cams.

At low to meduim revs the cars felt quite similar but mine has more punch at higher revs/higher gear due to the increased torque from the cams.

How many miles were on the car when you installed the cams? Did you do the Stage 1 and cams at the same time?
Posted By: Chris99

Re: Compensator dilema. - 28/10/19 12:16 PM

MMC stage 1 installed in 2 parts - the air filter at 7,200 miles and the exhausts at 7,500.

The air filter alone made no discernible difference but the exhausts transformed the car smile

Cam upgrade at 21,500 miles
Posted By: LightSpeed

Re: Compensator dilema. - 28/10/19 12:19 PM

Thank you.
Posted By: planenut

Re: Compensator dilema. - 02/11/19 12:24 PM




Just got the engine out for Phil Bleazeys mods and these are the Centa rollers after 13,000 miles and 2 years of use. They are in surprisingly good condition, although starting to break up a bit at one end, the forward end I think but they all fell out as I removed the Centa. These were supplied to me as a "trial" set back in July 2017 by MMC, which suggests they are a slightly different compound to what was used before. The original 2015 items fell apart at 10,000 miles. Good news for all those owners with post mid 2017 cars? My cars engine produces a little over 90bhp with standard cams and G56 Stage 1 kit (on the dyno) and it does get "used" smile .

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Bob17

Re: Compensator dilema. - 02/11/19 01:02 PM

Just back from a most interesting and enjoyable few days being Bleazeyed’! Caught the rubbers JIT as only two rubbers were intact. One hard completely disintegrated having deposited itself in a coating around the Centa drive assembly and the other was in two pieces! Disaster about to occur!
Phil’s engineered master piece is well designed enabling all the smooth drive characteristics expected of a new car and certainly solves the problem of changing the Centa rollers without having to remove the engine. Just as any serviceable item should be.
All thanks to Phil.
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