Talk Morgan

Morgan and the electric car

Posted By: howard

Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 12:59 PM

The movement to electric family cars is now really beginning to ramp up with models coming in from all manufacturers. This is an international government campaign and you can be sure that there will increasingly be both incentive for electric and penalties for petrol. It won't be long before petrol stations start to close and it becomes more difficult to get fuel for an ICE. Difficult but not impossible.

I can see HMG making special arrangements for classics but that won't cover cars made between 80/85 and now which they see as simply old cars. And this is likely to trash the value of such cars.

How do you plan to approach this scenario. Or are you confident it won't happen in you driving lifetime.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 01:37 PM

My goodness Howard. Did you just find out that your new Ferrari won't arrive in time for Christmas and by the time it gets here it will be subject to 2020 prices, increased road tax, the new luxury car tax, import duty, customs clearance, and on top of that someone has reliably informed you that the excise on petrol will be raised in 2020?

Must be something like that to depress you so much somestick

Cheers up old chap, surely life can't be all that bad happy3
Posted By: madmax

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by howard
The movement to electric family cars is now really beginning to ramp up with models coming in from all manufacturers. This is an international government campaign and you can be sure that there will increasingly be both incentive for electric and penalties for petrol. It won't be long before petrol stations start to close and it becomes more difficult to get fuel for an ICE. Difficult but not impossible.

I can see HMG making special arrangements for classics but that won't cover cars made between 80/85 and now which they see as simply old cars. And this is likely to trash the value of such cars.

How do you plan to approach this scenario. Or are you confident it won't happen in you driving lifetime.





If the charges/penalties/taxes etc are significantly pushed up and there is a lowering of electric car prices and insurance for these reduced and the range of the electric cars is increased then we might get one , ......... thinking Not selling the petrol car yet !
Posted By: howard

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gambalunga
My goodness Howard. Did you just find out that your new Ferrari won't arrive in time for Christmas and by the time it gets here it will be subject to 2020 prices, increased road tax, the new luxury car tax, import duty, customs clearance, and on top of that someone has reliably informed you that the excise on petrol will be raised in 2020?

Must be something like that to depress you so much somestick

Cheers up old chap, surely life can't be all that bad happy3


Not depressed at all! It seems to me to be a reasonable guess of the likely future. The big question is timescale and if the almost panic about global warming is any indication it will be sooner rather than later

Why should the got make special exemptions for ICE cars made in 2000 forcexample
Posted By: Kevcaster

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 03:01 PM

Not depressed and not bothered as it is unlikely to affect me in my lifetime and probably not in my kid’s lifetime. There are far more pressing issues to fix before we get to “no more petrol”.
How about this as an idea. By the time we exclusively switch to electric vehicles, personal transport systems will have been abolished and we will travel in self driven pods hired for each journey on a grid system that does not need roads. in the same way that nations no longer build landline telecoms systems we will no longer build roads, the need to travel will have been much reduced and even restricted by legislation.
Phew
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 03:10 PM

The cost of new electric cars, and a significant number of IC engined new cars puts them way outside what the majority can afford.

To imagine a big take up of electric in the short term is to totally misunderstand the economics of the poorer areas in this country.

And there is nowhere near enough charging infrastructure.

It will come but I don't expect to see it.
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 03:27 PM

I have to admit to thinking along similar lines to Howard, I suspect those who utilised man maths on the basis of investment potential to buy into classic car ownership/collecting might be wise to re-evaluate...? As for what measures might be taken by any govt to reduce car ownership/use, I suspect there will be plenty of legislative options available. Don`t fancy my 80`s +8`s chances much, but it just may outlast my ability to drive it..!!!

When I was young the working class did not generally expect to own cars and few did. It seems that today even those not in employment expect to own and run cars...? In future I suspect the clock may need to turn back to some degree...?

My grandfather took to the road in a horse and cart between the wars, and ever complained of the number of vehicles on the road in the mid fifties, today, it seems I think as my grandfather did back then.. smile
Posted By: sospan

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 03:41 PM

It is not going to happen overnight. There will be a gradual demonising of ICE with emissions managed cities, fuel duty ( it is needed to fund other costs) slow infrastructure development, the looming battery life time limit, continued high purchase cost for private ownership.
Next year will have Brexit issues to occupy the politicians ( mind you they could slip in some ICE cash cow changes) and during the transition period there will be plenty of things to occupy them.
The large majority from the election would help push through changes but which ones and when?
A taffmogger knows a major car dealership boss who is pulling his hair out over used EV prices. The battery life issue is causing high depreciation. Who wants to buy an EV when the battery warranty is about to stop? Renault are offering a battery rental option on cars but at what cost (£80/month I think). I don’t know the cost of a replacement and who bears it though.
Me? Happy to keep ICE but might be tempted by hybrid if the maths was OK.
Posted By: Frank 4x4

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 07:54 PM


We will all have to source the kit that Ed China used to convert the Maserati Biturbo to electric...

Converting A Maserati Biturbo Into An Electric Vehicle | Wheeler Dealers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0JbbRFuMhw

Posted By: ChrisConvertible

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 09:47 PM

I was trying to use Man Maths to buy a Morgan last year, maybe I should thank my change in finances because it leaves my finances in the car market reasonably low, while I own 3 cars they only make up maybe 5% of my total wealth where adding a Morgan would have put that much higher. My son on the other hand only owns maybe 1/4 of his car and very few other assets so you could say cars make up 400% of his total revenue. Not sure what % of your wealth should be in cars but I think it is best to not have it too high with the future of cars changing rapidly at the moment.

I see three possibilities for me.

1, Batteries get cheap or some new form of battery turns up and converting classic cars becomes a decent option. While the electric E-type is reasonably nice (hate the dash) and so is the RBW Classic Electric Cars MGB (also hate the dash) both are much too expensive even if I had the money - for the price currently I would rather a Frontline MGB. But if batteries could come down in price and get lighter so easier to not upset the handling of a car then converting a car myself could be an option for me that would be fun to do.

2, Morgan or someone else makes an electric car I like at a price that makes sense to buy.

3, Most of the world turn towards electric leaving a glut of nice petrol cars at cheap prices and the petrol companies drop the price of petrol to try keep some market, so I buy Howard's Ferrari dirt cheap and import it to Australia where we still have petrol stations because we are 20 years behind the rest of the world and enjoy driving it on cheaper petrol for along time.
Posted By: TBM

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 10:57 PM

Here's a company that convert classic cars to electric....

Electric Classic Cars

I'm between a rock and a hard place - could never really afford to convert my Morgan, and until electric car prices drop dramatically I've got no chance of buying one - I usually spend about £500 to £750 every two or three years on an economy runabout, then scrap it and buy a new one. Cheap tax and insurance and get about 45+mpg. Do my own servicing which also keeps costs right down.
.
Posted By: ChrisConvertible

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 11:41 PM

They seem to do a nice job looking at their website but did you look at the prices and weights of the components in their online shop. The Porsche they mention has two motors and 54KWh of batteries so adding it up gives

Motors - £4,000 and 52KG by 2 = £8,000 and 104KG
Batteries - £1,200 and 26KG by 10 to make 54KWh = £12,000 and 260KG
Vehicle charging unit - £1,800 and 75KG.

That is about £22,000 and well over 400KG for just those three major components, plus I am sure there are a lot of other components needed, sure some weight is removed but I expect nowhere near 400KG. There are similar options in Australia but to convert say a MGB works out roughly to about $50,000AUD from looking at the on-line shops trying to decide what parts I would need. I only spend about $750AUD a year on petrol now for my car and $1900AUD for my wife's car because she drives a lot further.

Buying a cheap runabout seems sensible to me for now, at least if the car economy changes significantly you don't have a lot of money tied up.
Posted By: Button

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 23/12/19 11:46 PM

My Kids gave Me a Toyota with 150,000 miles on it. 30 MPG U.S. and about 25 MPG in Seattle. Not pretty looking but drives OK. The most expensive item is Insurance.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by howard
The movement to electric family cars is now really beginning to ramp up with models coming in from all manufacturers. This is an international government campaign and you can be sure that there will increasingly be both incentive for electric and penalties for petrol. It won't be long before petrol stations start to close and it becomes more difficult to get fuel for an ICE. Difficult but not impossible.

I can see HMG making special arrangements for classics but that won't cover cars made between 80/85 and now which they see as simply old cars. And this is likely to trash the value of such cars.

How do you plan to approach this scenario. Or are you confident it won't happen in you driving lifetime.



The latter. The public will be underestimated again by politicians.

And whilst on the subject, how could a true classic remain so after converting to electric confused2
Posted By: TBM

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Richard Wood
And whilst on the subject, how could a true classic remain so after converting to electric confused2


It's a good point. I think it was FIVA who said that conversions should not be classed as 'classic'

I suppose it's all down to what you use your car for. if it's an 'investment' or a 'show pony' then I can see the point in keeping it all original.

However, if it's a loved and well used car, I can't personally see the problem. Mine is 'technically' a classic, however I've changed the suspension lights, seating, heating, dash, hood frame etc. so it's very different to how it came out the factory. I will continue to adapt and change to suit my own circumstances.and needs.

I'd certainly consider an electric conversion if a) it meant I could continue to use her in the way I currently do (she's fairly economical at around 36+mpg, however if fuel prices rose dramatically in a push to EV, then I wouldn't be able to afford to run her) and b) EV conversions dropped considerable in price (under £10K)
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 01:34 PM

Well, as I'm reading this my i3 is re-charging in the Hotel car park & I'm looking forward to our afternoon tea, currently being prepped (I hope) TTFN wine
Posted By: robmog88

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by sospan
It is not going to happen overnight. There will be a gradual demonising of ICE with emissions managed cities, fuel duty ( it is needed to fund other costs) slow infrastructure development, the looming battery life time limit, continued high purchase cost for private ownership.
Next year will have Brexit issues to occupy the politicians ( mind you they could slip in some ICE cash cow changes) and during the transition period there will be plenty of things to occupy them.
The large majority from the election would help push through changes but which ones and when?
A taffmogger knows a major car dealership boss who is pulling his hair out over used EV prices. The battery life issue is causing high depreciation. Who wants to buy an EV when the battery warranty is about to stop? Renault are offering a battery rental option on cars but at what cost (£80/month I think). I don’t know the cost of a replacement and who bears it though.
Me? Happy to keep ICE but might be tempted by hybrid if the maths was OK.



Batteries are lasting much longer than anyone thought, the first electric mass market car the Nissan Leaf came out in 2010 and there are plenty of this vintage still running albeit with about an average of 8-9% battery degradation. However more recent battery technology has seen this level of degradation diminish to around 3-4%.
Battery EV’s are actually increasing in value, I have been offered a very good deal by Nissan to trade in my 2018 Nissan leaf but at present I don’t feel the need to do so.
I have the Leaf and also a 2018 Hyundai Kona ev, both of which are great cars. The Kona will do around 250-260 miles on a charge and during the summer my solar array charges the car for free. At the moment I’m paying about £5 a charge as I’m on a special Edf tariff at 8p per kWh, and solar doesn’t produce as much in the winter.
I still have my plus 8 and use it as much as I can, weather permitting, I think the ev switch is going to be quicker than most people think. Most of the big manufacturers are launching ev’s in 2020, Honda, VW, BMW Peugeot to name but a few.
I don’t imagine the total switch is imminent but progressing a lot quicker than most would imagine, as for cost there are cars available at reasonable prices on the the used market so it’s a fallacy to imagine “they’re out of reach of most people”.

As for charging infrastructure I have managed several long distance journeys to Plymouth and back a few times, Liverpool a couple of times and oxford regularly, yes it takes a bit of planning but the charging infrastructure is increasing at a very fast pace and there are now more charge points than petrol stations.

If you haven’t tried an ev please do, they are amazing vehicles, and I haven’t even mentioned not just the cheap cost of running them, as they don’t have the need for oil changes, cam belt changes, new exhausts, clutches, gearboxes that an ice car has the overall cost of ownership is very much less.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by robmog88
I think the ev switch is going to be quicker than most people think.


I think you are absolutely right, Rob. In 15 years time people still running ICE vehicles are going to be social outcasts like smokers are today.
Posted By: robmog88

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by robmog88
I think the ev switch is going to be quicker than most people think.


I think you are absolutely right, Rob. In 15 years time people still running ICE vehicles are going to be social outcasts like smokers are today.



👍
Posted By: TBM

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by robmog88
as for cost there are cars available at reasonable prices on the the used market so it’s a fallacy to imagine “they’re out of reach of most people”.


Just had a scan on ebay - can't find much second hand for under £5000 so are going to need to drop a fair amount before I'd consider them 'affordable'....
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 03:25 PM

There seem to be extreme divergence on the timing on take up of EV's, and on here, depreciation of same. Perhaps not surprising when the experts/interested parties have no clear idea of the former, although our politicians strangely do innocent

This article suggests up to 32% of worlds passenger cars by 2040 countered by a fuel companies prediction of less than 10%.
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 03:35 PM

Richard AKA old thumper, when you typed the following :-

"And whilst on the subject, how could a true classic remain so after converting to electric"

You caused me to wonder what might be considered a "classic" and quite how a "true classic" might be further identified when as has already been decreed by Howard :-

" can see HMG making special arrangements for classics but that won't cover cars made between 80/85 and now which they see as simply old cars."

I tend to have a degree of heightened interest when determining the possible classification of old cars is discussed. I suspect if THE priority becomes climate, we might imagine that the most polluting private vehicles will be first to face restrictions on usage..? Should that become the case, my old +8 being about the last to leave the MCC with carbs fitted is bound to be amongst the first to be binned, but wait... it does have an auto choke so perhaps The old thing might have a stay of execution if it is degreed that all those that were produced with manual chokes will be first to be binned...(-: But then surely there will be a need for further categorisation, can`t go binning all those Bentleys and the likes or even Morgans of a similar era...? Perhaps the So where to start..hmm..? While the Vintage Sports Car Club (VSCC) in the UK has ever had it`s own set of rules relative to what might be determined as VINTAGE it seems the DVLA may not have any such classification..?

It seems the govt are inclined to look to car clubs to determine a preliminary classification and amongst clubs there me none more respected that the VSCC thus if there is a need or desire to closer define machines then the VSCC`s determinations may be adopted..?

It seems the UK govt in the form of the DVLA may have already have been a few steps ahead of the game for THEY have already made determinations as to that which can be considered an HISTORIC VEHICLE :-

the vehicle was built or first registered more than 40 years ago AND no ‘substantial changes’ have been made to the vehicle in the last 30 years, for example replacing the chassis, body, axles or engine to change the way the vehicle works.

So I guess that covers the govt designation of HISTORIC, but what about "CLASSIC...?

It seems DVLA thinking is that a Classic is a vehicle over 25 years old :-

DVLA can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:-

built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle a true reflection of the marque.

I become ever more curious.. (-: I wonder if there is a DVLA classification for ORIGINAL CLASSIC, but I suspect the water is in danger of becoming really muddy now, perhaps... matching numbers... could be slotted in to that designation somewhere...

Wanna try classifying your Morgan in terms of govt thinking..as opposed to any general marketing or sales hype you may care to swallow...? (-:

I suspect the newer your Morgan the longer it may survive in the anti ICE age, perhaps anything pre CAT may be driving round with a red dot in the initial stages of clean up legislation...? There have been examples of initial attempts at pollution reduction in some cities, as well as "safety" thinking relative to construction and use, in terms of lighting, passenger and pedestrian safety that is ever evolving and unlikely to be matched by even slightly older cars at any the time the regs came/come into force...?

For now I am happy that I can still fire the old thing up and enjoy a few miles driving out in the countryside when the mood takes me.... As for it`s investment potential....Well now, that would seem to have an even more difficult set of possibilities relative to applying some sort of categorisation...? In terms of profit... not a chance, though it has provided returns a plenty and at this stage for me, that works out well enough.

As for electrification of my Morgan... The very flexible nature of it`s construction in terms of chassis and body would seem to provide limitations, none more so than in terms of it`s suspension perhaps..? thinking the weight and spread of it in something looking Morganesque and how that weight and distribution thereof would alter the whole feel of a car...??? The idea of altering it`s handling characteristics to more match modern motorists expectations has never been high on my agenda, though admit that with advancing years..hmm..? However being a confirmed and one time very hands-on petrol head, I am attuned to the sight, sound, smell and vibrations of an engine that could never ever be as involving for me as a lump under the bonnet. Though having worked with some high tec kit in my time, I would never say never in terms of the capability of technological advance even if just to replicate the past... Whatever..!!!

I am in the same camp as those who think the transition will come to pass sooner than later... and as ever public opinion can be manipulated as proven by some of the politicians currently in place around the world...?

As ever just thinking in type and claiming ZERO expertise.. oldgit hide
Posted By: Shooter

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 04:04 PM

I can see a way to remove the existing engine and possible the rear axle from classic cars, build a battery sub frame to bolt in where the engine was mounted and fit a replacement axle with electric motor. The existing speedo can be rigged to continue working and the fuel gage could be rigged to indicate state of charge. Remove fuel tank and replace fuel cap with the charge port.

Whilst that is all being done, have the original engine and rear axle completely rebuilt/renovated and keep to be able to revert back to original. For a lot of cars this could be done without chopping the main parts of the car about. Or a new lease of life for projects with completely knackered engines, just convert to electric and don't bother with the engine refurb.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 05:12 PM

Historic may be a better definition Luddite than Classic, just generalising on my use of the latter. As you say DVLA have provided us with a clear definition of the former.

Regarding the demonising of same I think relative numbers need to be taken into account. Apparently there are around a quarter of a million DVLA registered historic vehicles but nearly half of these are SORN at any time. It translates that only 0.004% of cars on the road today are historic, so hardly likely to worry most polititians on an environmental basis. Added to which no great pollution objections seem to be raised by the increasing enthusiasm for heritage steam railways. I can't see punitive charges being placed on coal either with increases purely down to economics of availability. Why therefore would there be with ICE fuel over and above current, unless of course its to force the increasing numbers of motorist who can only afford 10 + year old vehicles, to buy electric [Linked Image] I think I can see a flaw in that surmise though innocent

Regarding Howards concern for 80's onward Classics, surely they eventually inherit historic status under the 40 year sliding scale DVLA ruling.

BTW Luddite with apologies for your confusion, the Old Thumper in my avatar refers to the 1936 diesel twin in my narrowboat. Can't deny that is polluting but it sounds so great and garners many complimentary comments wink

Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Richard Wood
BTW Luddite with apologies for your confusion, the Old Thumper in my avatar refers to the 1936 diesel twin in my narrowboat. Can't deny that is polluting but it sounds so great and garners many complimentary comments wink

Lister marine diesel . Fantastic thumbs
Posted By: madmax

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Shooter
I can see a way to remove the existing engine and possible the rear axle from classic cars, build a battery sub frame to bolt in where the engine was mounted and fit a replacement axle with electric motor. The existing speedo can be rigged to continue working and the fuel gage could be rigged to indicate state of charge. Remove fuel tank and replace fuel cap with the charge port.

Whilst that is all being done, have the original engine and rear axle completely rebuilt/renovated and keep to be able to revert back to original. For a lot of cars this could be done without chopping the main parts of the car about. Or a new lease of life for projects with completely knackered engines, just convert to electric and don't bother with the engine refurb.



Spot on , this is in the process of in relation to pre 89 911's at a Suffolk Porsche specialist .
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 24/12/19 08:24 PM

Apologies Richard in not paying attention te: old thumper, I am rather fond of the sort of comforting thump of an old fashioned diesel, never more so than when on a vessel, having sailed around some Scottish West Coast Islands and a bit of Ireland, at times listening to an old 2 litre twin Volvo that proved it`s self to be very reliable. Much preferred the old kit without turbos ans digital electronics to complicate matters, especially when afloat..I am but an observer in terms of the automobile evolution, just feeling very fortunate to have been able to enjoy that which I have, right up to this moment in time.

Electric Classic vehicles... Shooter& madmax.. If interested, I posted a link to Porsche 911 electric conversions in the past, if you care to type "fully charged Porsche 911" into your browser, I am sure it will pop up..
Posted By: rid967

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 02:26 PM

Sky News had a bit on their programme this morning about a USA specialist converting classic Porsches to electric with comparable performance.
As someone who owns a classic air cooled Porsche, I just could not bring myself to do this, much as I am attracted to the concept of EVs. The distinctive noise which my air cooled Porsche makes is addictive and provides much of the pleasure of driving the car.
I would have to be forced (by Gov regulation) to go down this route and just hope that somehow, in all the hype about more and more Gov regulation going down this road, that we classic car owners will still have the right and ability to continue running and enjoying our cars.
Posted By: howard

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 02:56 PM

Electrifying an old vehicle wont work - there are requirements in the regs that the car should not have been re -engined in the last 30 years if it is to classify as classic. And its likely, I would have thought, that when the time comes and ICE cars have to start being removed from use, the exemption will be for classic cars ie those 40 years old at the time. So if your 964 is an end of line car built in 93, it will just nicely be in the 40 year bracket when we go all electric in 2040.

All this of course is speculation, but what is beyond doubt is that ICE cars are going to be taken out of use except ( we hope) for a small number of classics used on high days and holidays. I believe some countries already have mileage restrictions on their use. And with that comes difficulty with issues like fuel supply and service. Will Tsco want to supply small quantities of petrol for a hobby interest or will they shut down the petrol stations? Will mechanics know a camshaft from a conrond or will it be a stator from a rotor?

In the end my guess is that the high end rarities will survive, cars that for some reason really are special. Trads? Well there are a lot about.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 03:13 PM

Howard,

it all cars are electric and existing cars scrapped by 2040 I'll eat my Morgan. It is just 20 years.
It is quite impossible to make a social and infrastructure change of that magnitude in such a short time.

An interesting side comment: the HS2 rail line will need its own dedicated power station as there is insufficient power generating capacity.....
A 100% electric car, van bus and truck fleet will need further generating capacity.
BTW, It takes 15 years to build a new nuclear power station....
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 04:01 PM

Interesting as always Howard.... I suspect Rid967 will although unable to identify his old Porsche as HISTORIC if he modifies it, however if he converts it to electric I suspect it will be deemed an electric vehicle and no longer an ICE powered machine, thus probably as such eligible for road use and more suited to it if charging points are more prevalent than petrol stations...?

I expect that in 20 years I may be unlikely to be around... shrug..? However given the speed that climate change seems to be rising up the political, scientific and media agenda, I would not care to make any predictions, and less so if it turns out the general populace agree with the scientists, thus running your classic may be the least important thing for you contemplate. oldgit
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 04:32 PM


Overly optimistic time frames I think are being bandied around, fuel will always be around for our light aircraft in the civilian market I would virtually guarantee. They don't mess around with these boys like the government of the day does with the motorist as we are the easy targets.
I think they will settle on a limited annual mileage for our cars at the end of the day. It will kill all motor sport otherwise as a bonus mad

When and if the day comes that I can no longer take the Plus 8 out for a rumble around Dartmoor and environs motoring will be over for me and the good lady can be the all time pilot.

I am looking forward to seeing what Morgan produce in this context on the CX chassis though and would never say never laugh2
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 05:44 PM

If they limit us to 5000 miles a year and ban us from big city centres it will not materially change how I use my Plus 8.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 05:56 PM

That arrangement would suit many I would think.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 06:23 PM

Yes, if you drive more than 5000 miles a year it must be electric, under 5000 miles you can drive whatever you like.
That would work for most car enthusiasts. Especially if unused miles could be rolled forward or sold, like carbon tax credits!!
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Howard,

it all cars are electric and existing cars scrapped by 2040 I'll eat my Morgan. It is just 20 years.
It is quite impossible to make a social and infrastructure change of that magnitude in such a short time.

An interesting side comment: the HS2 rail line will need its own dedicated power station as there is insufficient power generating capacity.....
A 100% electric car, van bus and truck fleet will need further generating capacity.
BTW, It takes 15 years to build a new nuclear power station....

The general public are not that keen on nuclear power stations either.

I can't help feeling that there will be advances in fuel cell technology that will make hybrid fuel cell (where the fuel cell is used instead of an internal combustion enegine) cars more attractive than fully electric vehicles. Fully electric vehicles may be ok for short haul inner city cars but there are too many things against them for long distance travel.

Hydrogen is, of course promising, but requires new distribution infrastructure, and, unless renewable energy sources are used to generate the hydrogen it has the same problem or worse as the generation requirements for electricity. Work is being done to develop other fuel cell technology that uses methanol or ethanol and even petrol. The by-products of these are water and oxygen and a small amount of CO2.

My prediction would be that by 2040 most small city cars will be 100% electric but larger and long distance vehicles will be hybrid fuel cell vehicles where the relatively small battery is constantly charged as required and supplies a reserve of energy for peak power needs such as hills and acceleration.

There will be little point in having supercars as speed will be limited to a maximum of 150 km/h in most cases.
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 06:40 PM

The biggest problem is probably terraced streets with limited parking. Not only is there the economics where affordability is an issue, but how can charging be facilitated, when you must park where you can?

Even if we have the capacity in the system I fail to see how this is a green solution.

Abolishing cars completely and adopting electric public transport is surely much greener.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by DaveW

Abolishing cars completely and adopting electric public transport is surely much greener.


That would be an interesting "sell".

The main reason I use a car, rather than public transport, is because I value my time and convenience.

Public transport where I live is, bus or train. To use the train I need to use a bus to get to the station. I need to allow an hour for a 4 mile trip. It is quicker to cycle, but as there are no cycle lanes or paths I'm not cycling on the busy A36.
The train can take me to London, Exeter, Bristol and Southampton, but not at a time when I want to go. From home to West Quay Shopping Centre in Southampton is 32 mins by car and 1 hour 20 mins by bus...but only 3 times a day and not on Sunday.
I can get a train directly from Salisbury to Malvern Link: Car is 2 hrs 20 mins, the train is 4 hrs 25 to 4 hrs 52 mins, depending on the route and time of day. There is no comparison. Google claims I could cycle in less than 10 hours.

Within cities public transport works. I'd no more consider driving in London than I would becoming vegan. But in the countryside and small towns, forget it.

Our local Tesco Extra recently installed 4 x 6Kw charging points. I've seen them used once or twice. I asked in the store how often they are used. The Duty Manager said that data is not collected. Strikes me as "Green Window-Dressing"!

End of rant.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by DaveW
Abolishing cars completely and adopting electric public transport is surely much greener.


This is definitely the way to go, but how do we deliver flexible public transport in in areas that find the sustaining of regular timetabled services difficult or unaffordable? My prediction is that we will see the development of co-operating swarms of smaller (6 or 8 seat) quasi-autonomous electric vehicles which will be scattered around an area in local charging hubs. I hereby christen these things QUAVERS (QUasi-Autonomous VEhicular Resources)

When you want to go somewhere, you will summon a vehicle and specify your destination and timeframe via an Uber-style app. Regular journeys can be diaried in in advance (I want to get from my house to my office by 09:00 on weekdays, for example).

The system will then either despatch a fresh Quaver from its charging point, or divert an existing one with time to spare in its schedule and room to carry you, to come and pick you up and take you to your destination

The clever thing is that the Quavers will all be communicating with each other and will assemble themselves into physically linked articulated road trains as they share routes. This will enable power sharing, much improved aerodynamics, and much greater traffic density. They will also be able to warn each other of congestion, black spots and so on to enable dynamic re-roting to keep traffic flowing.

You won't own a Quaver, you will pay a subscription to use the service and a per-mile charge based on energy usage, traffic congestion, and environmental impact. Using a Quaver for a 5-mile journey that could easily be completed by bicycle will cost proportionately much more than a longer rural journey.

I bet this idea has already been thought about and is being worked on by loads of keen young technology whizz-kids, but just it case it hasn't I hereby donate this concept free of charge to the world as my gift to humanity smile
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by DaveW
Abolishing cars completely and adopting electric public transport is surely much greener.


This is definitely the way to go, but how do we deliver flexible public transport in in areas that find the sustaining of regular timetabled services difficult or unaffordable? My prediction is that we will see the development of co-operating swarms of smaller (6 or 8 seat) quasi-autonomous electric vehicles which will be scattered around an area in local charging hubs. I hereby christen these things QUAVERS (QUasi-Autonomous VEhicular Resources)

When you want to go somewhere, you will summon a vehicle and specify your destination and timeframe via an Uber-style app. Regular journeys can be diaried in in advance (I want to get from my house to my office by 09:00 on weekdays, for example).

The system will then either despatch a fresh Quaver from its charging point, or divert an existing one with time to spare in its schedule and room to carry you, to come and pick you up and take you to your destination

The clever thing is that the Quavers will all be communicating with each other and will assemble themselves into physically linked articulated road trains as they share routes. This will enable power sharing, much improved aerodynamics, and much greater traffic density. They will also be able to warn each other of congestion, black spots and so on to enable dynamic re-roting to keep traffic flowing.

You won't own a Quaver, you will pay a subscription to use the service and a per-mile charge based on energy usage, traffic congestion, and environmental impact. Using a Quaver for a 5-mile journey that could easily be completed by bicycle will cost proportionately much more than a longer rural journey.

I bet this idea has already been thought about and is being worked on by loads of keen young technology whizz-kids, but just it case it hasn't I hereby donate this concept free of charge to the world as my gift to humanity smile


I do not believe it would work outside the urban jungle.
Inside urban areas it is a brilliant idea that would work.
Time to prepare the business plan and get backing.
The technology is there,
As long as Boeing don't develop the software....
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 09:29 PM

The barrier to all of this is lack of public buy in.

No politician will be elected on a manifesto to abolish cars, meaningless global travel, diesel container ships, and de- industrialisation. It would be seen as a restriction of personal freedom to a car dependent electorate, happy to fly around the world to read a book in a sun lounger somewhere hot.

I don't believe any of this will stop until those destinations are made inhospitable by climate change.

Australia seems to be heading that way now.

I'm not a green loony, but I dont see any worthwhile changes in my lifetime.
Posted By: rid967

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 26/12/19 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by howard
Electrifying an old vehicle wont work - there are requirements in the regs that the car should not have been re -engined in the last 30 years if it is to classify as classic. And its likely, I would have thought, that when the time comes and ICE cars have to start being removed from use, the exemption will be for classic cars ie those 40 years old at the time. So if your 964 is an end of line car built in 93, it will just nicely be in the 40 year bracket when we go all electric in 2040.
.


Reassuring if you are right. My 964 will be 30 years old on the 10th January, also my birthday, by coincidence. In 2040 I will be 91 years old if I live that long! Hopefully, if I am still around, I hope to be still able to drive it without putting other road users at risk. If I can’t I would still aspire to having someone else drive me as passenger in either the Morgan or the Porsche without being arrested for polluting the environment.
Happy days.
Posted By: Dean-Royal

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 27/12/19 08:51 AM

We already have thousands of unused charging points around the Country...they are currently known as "Street Lamps" i am sure with a little ingenuity these could be adapted to power point charging systems especially for smaller lighter vehicles.
Larger commercial sites such as Hauliers will invest in their own plant within their business just has they previously did with fuel tanks.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 27/12/19 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by DaveW
The barrier to all of this is lack of public buy in.



I think that may start to change dramatically next year. Interesting article on how Electric car sales are expected to rise massively in 2020 and why, specifically....

"New European Union rules come into force on 1 January that will heavily penalise carmakers if average carbon dioxide emissions from the cars they sell rise above 95g per kilometre. If carmakers exceed that limit, they will have to pay a fine of €95 (£79) for every gram over the target, multiplied by the total number of cars they sell.......;Carmakers successfully lobbied for a rule that means cars emitting less than 50g of carbon dioxide per kilometre are eligible for so-called super-credits, a controversial policy which means that every electric vehicle sold counts as two cars. That makes it easier for carmakers to meet their targets. "

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...f-the-electric-car-say-industry-analysts
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 27/12/19 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dean-Royal
We already have thousands of unused charging points around the Country...they are currently known as "Street Lamps" i am sure with a little ingenuity these could be adapted to power point charging systems especially for smaller lighter vehicles.
Larger commercial sites such as Hauliers will invest in their own plant within their business just has they previously did with fuel tanks.


Yes, lots of companies are working on this, also on running additional cabling under the gutters with liftable hatches so you don't need to be near a streetlamp. When I stopped consulting with EDF their technology teams were well advanced with developing the necessary software and stuff.

People are very rapidly realising that if you expect an EV to be used in exactly the same way as an ICE vehicle you give yourself all sorts of problems that simply don't exist if you recalibrate your thinking. Refueling is a perfect example of this. Some people are so used to refueling an ICE by standing next to it for 5 minutes while we pump fuel in that it's difficult for them to understand that (a) we don't actually use our cars most of the hours in the day and (b) we don't need to be with them whilst they recharge.
Posted By: Image

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 27/12/19 02:43 PM

I also think the logistics of providing the infrastructure will scupper the timescales activists are demanding (and politicians are cynically reinforcing)..... On a 'war footing' the charging points could go in (I'm old enough to remember the massive undertaking that was the switch over to natural gas in a short time - frame) .... However, virtually doubling our generation capacity (and not with intermittency-compromised renewables either)... Will just not be achievable.... There's a lot of pie in the sky wishful thinking going on at present regarding storage.... You can't keep the lights on with lovely thoughts.

One Downside might be more draconian restriction on ICE cars as the politicians desperately try to divert criticism of missed targets by appearing to be doing something... But who knows what the future holds.... We need this being driven (no pun intended) by scientists and engineers... Not by self proclaimed 'activists' and politicians.

This coming from someone who's lived off-grid for over 30 years (yep, twice as long as Greta has been alive)...... Fully committed to environmental issues.... But knows first hand about the limitations of renewables.

K
Posted By: TBM

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 06:53 AM

As someone who does considerably more than 5000m a year, and in all types of location, my biggest concern, and something that would certainly make me consider converting to EV, is the future cost of petrol ( I can see a massive 'ECO' tax being levied on petrol as EV become more prevalent) and a decline in the number of petrol stations.

I had my S2A converted to lpg, so I could afford to use it, and although it considerably reduced running costs, it was a constant ball ache having to plan journeys around stations that sold it. I imagine it's the same for EV users at the moment, but that will change as time progresses.
Posted By: ChrisConvertible

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by robmog88
I think the ev switch is going to be quicker than most people think.


I think you are absolutely right, Rob. In 15 years time people still running ICE vehicles are going to be social outcasts like smokers are today.


Yes, when I mention wanting to buy a Morgan I got some very rude comments from my sister in law about me wanting to ruin the planet. I tried to explain that due to the low weight, renewable parts like the wooden frame used in the car and good fuel consumption a Morgan is better than other cars regarding the environment but she wouldn't listen. I have a feeling a lot of people are like her just currently less outspoken, I am worried if I buy an expensive car that I want to keep for a long time I could end up feeling like a leper whenever I mention cars.

[/quote]
Originally Posted by TBM
Originally Posted by robmog88
as for cost there are cars available at reasonable prices on the the used market so it’s a fallacy to imagine “they’re out of reach of most people”.


Just had a scan on ebay - can't find much second hand for under £5000 so are going to need to drop a fair amount before I'd consider them 'affordable'....


The cheapest Nissan Leaf in Australia is a 2012 model for $15750 which would be now out of warranty and if/when the battery needs replacing it would be either $34,000 or $9,999 plus labour depending on whether Nissan are nice and agree to the battery replacement price they advertised in the past. Regardless I have read it currently takes 7 months for a battery to arrive from Japan which is a very long time. Or I could buy a brand new Skoda Fabia for the same price or even a bit less if I go for a Demo model and pay about $700 a year for enough petrol for 10,000km each year. With the worry of an expensive replacement battery potentially being required I expect a lot of people needing a car with about $15,000 to spend would be not looking at the leaf.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dean-Royal
We already have thousands of unused charging points around the Country...they are currently known as "Street Lamps" i am sure with a little ingenuity these could be adapted to power point charging systems especially for smaller lighter vehicles.


Not a chance: street lights have either a 13A or 5A supply. They would need replacing and so would the underground cables feeding them.

The local Tesco Extra has 4 new 6Ah charging points, sponsored (paid for?) by VW: they wanted to put in higher charge rate units, but that would have required a new feed from the substation about 500m away. No business case could justify it.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
street lights have either a 13A or 5A supply. They would need replacing and so would the underground cables feeding them.


Only from the local junction to the light itself, the rest of the cabling is standard spec SWA underground cable used by the Distribution Network Operators, just like the supply to your house, capable of supporting 100A single phase or 440V three-phase which can easily deliver a few Megawatts of power. Nearly all streetlighting supplies in the UK are provided on an unmetered basis, the Supplier and DNO never really knows exactly how much power is required for such services, they just provide what's expected based on a calculation and let the settlement process balance it all out in the ensuing months (ie whatever has been actually used at the local balancing point minus whatever's been metered must equal whatever has been supplied on an unmetered basis.

This is why breaking into a streetlight and nicking electricity from it is so popular with the less honest and law-abiding members of the traveeling community. It's practically impossible to detect in a short period, and by the time the DNO figures out where it's going from the travellers have moved on.

As I said, the electricity industry is all over this, they are spending millions preparing to enable massive increases in EV usage. They know it's coming, ad they know they are going to have to provide the capacity to provide it. When the Government eventually decides what it's strategy is going to be and where they are prepared to place their investment, the industry will be ready.

Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 02:58 PM

If the underground supply is 3 phase 440v then there is a possibility.
I was aware the supply was unmetered... back when I was a kid one of our neighbours had tapped the supply underground as it passed under the pavement and used it to feed his house lighting. He paid for the power, but not the lights. I think it also fed his shed, greenhouse and other outside stuff. We moved away, I'll bet he was never caught.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
The local Tesco Extra has 4 new 6Ah charging points, sponsored (paid for?) by VW


I just checked this, the VW network being rolled out to Tesco sites comprises 7KW chargers (free), and 50Kw chargers (paid for) together with 22KW points.

I suspect they couldn't justify putting the 50KW chargers in. The 7KW chargers use the standard cabling as I described, 4 of them in use simultaneously means 28KW or just over 100A, so I suspect there would be some throttling back if they were all in use together (or they have access to more than one supply point) if they are using a single-phase supply.

How much charge could you add whilst shopping in Tesco? Well, let's say you're in there for 15 minutes. A Nissan Leaf on a 7Kw charger can get around 145 miles of range in 6 hours, so whilst you were shopping you could add around 6 miles of range, which could be useful. If one was in a petrol car doing say 42mpg then it represents about 84p worth of fuel which is a pretty good bonus if you're popping down to the shops I reckon.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 05:13 PM

Plus it probably offers a good parking spot laugh
Posted By: MDS61

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 28/12/19 06:40 PM

Electric cars...still not "there yet" for me?
Posted By: howard

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 29/12/19 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dean-Royal
We already have thousands of unused charging points around the Country...they are currently known as "Street Lamps" i am sure with a little ingenuity these could be adapted to power point charging systems especially for smaller lighter vehicles.
Larger commercial sites such as Hauliers will invest in their own plant within their business just has they previously did with fuel tanks.


Interesting to hear on the box that the UK has more charging points than Germany.

The point that people are mssing, perhaps because its beyond the lifetime of many on here, its that you wont be able to buy a new ICE car from 2040 and this is backed by international agreements. I suspect it will happen earlier under pressure for the environmentalists but also from car makers who dont want to be making both electric and ICE for cost reasons. And as charging points become ever more common with a growing fleet of leccy cars, so petrol stations will become ever less common as the ICE fleet shrinks.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 29/12/19 11:03 PM

I still think that battery powered cars are a dead end except for city commutes. If governments were doing their jobs correctly they would not even be needed for that. Tokyo, for example, has very little private car usage. The metro system and commuting distance rail systems are so good as to make private car commuting a luxury reserved for the rich and upper company management, usually chauffeur driven.
Posted By: ChrisConvertible

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 30/12/19 01:00 AM

And when they do their jobs incorrectly they drop public transport usage. Canberra had a new tram installed between Gungahlin and Civic and wanted to integrate it with the existing bus timetable so hired a transport expert from the UK who came over made a few stupid changes across the whole city and resigned just before the new timetable was implemented probably because she didn't want to be around when everyone started whinging.

For those who don't know the layout of Canberra we have Gungahlin in the North, Belconnen North West, Civic in the Middle, Woden to the South and Tuggeranong more South. Each town centre is about 10km apart and I live roughly in-between Woden and Tuggeranong about 10km from each. Most buses would leave one town centre, travel though some suburbs and finish at another town centre, so you would catch the bus heading to the town centre you needed to get to and then an express bus between the town centres

As the new Tram is only between Gungahlin and the City centre of Civic it would be assumed that only the buses North of the centre would be changed however the stupid transport expert had the stupid idea that all buses should go in a loop from a town centre through the suburbs and back to the same town centre, then people use express buses or new tram to travel between the different town centres. The main reason this is stupid is that most people don't work in the town centre closest to home because work here seems to move a lot so would use one bus to get to a different town centre.

My commute is 25km which is a lot longer than the average Canberra commute of 11.75km, however when my wife and I bought we were both only 10km from work but unfortunately we both moved jobs. To get to work on a bus before the tram I would go from my house to Woden, then express bus to Civic and then Belconnen - 58 minutes in total. Now I can't get from home to Woden so I have to go to Tuggeranong first - 1 hour 39 minutes in total to get to Belconnen. I can ride my pushbike in 1 hour ten minutes or drive in 20 minutes. When working I generally rode my pushbike for the exercise and drove if I needed to be home early for some reason. I occasionally used the bus, for example going out to dinner with my wife after work and meeting her in town as 58 minutes was not too bad but add another 40 minutes to it and forget it, we would both drive to work, meet for dinner and two cars come home. (previously I would catch the bus to work and then an express bus to her work after work)

My 80 year old mother who lives further south from me gets free bus rides and would use the bus all the time hardly driving her car at all but she has been affected by the timetable so badly she now drives a lot more. She loved the bus and doesn't like driving but unfortunately for her the 10 minute bus trip to the shops she likes is now over an hour as she needs two buses and misses the connection by a few minutes. She would use the bus to get all over Canberra but now to just get out of her suburb takes so long she doesn't use it that much any more.

I also know people who live in Gungahlin who used to catch a bus from their home to Belconnen but now must catch a bus from home to Gungahlin, Tram to the city and then express bus to Belconnen so now drive. So even some Gungahlin residents have gone from bus users to drivers because of the new Tram.

The interesting thing is that bus usage has dropped significantly in the south and a bit everywhere else but due to the Tram public transport usage has increased slightly overall. But as there was no logical reason for a tram in the North to change the bus system in the south if it had been left alone the Tram would be a bigger success as it would have increased public transport usage in Canberra a reasonable amount. Unfortunately I think the transport gurus are just happy with the total figures and not realising how many people they have lost from the bus system.

The statistics for Canberra is average commute 11.75km, 75% by private car, 7% public transport and 8% active travel by either pushbike or walking. The Average commute for Australia is 15km and 69% by private car. Note that 8% active travel is the highest in the country but seeing I find my 25km commute on a pushbike quite enjoyable and well over double the average length I am surprised more people don't try our bike path system that allows me to get to work with only a couple of km on roads - it certainly works better than the public transport system.

Posted By: milligoon

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 30/12/19 01:50 AM

Sounds a bit similar to the bus services here in the SW of UK 20 minute car journey taking almost 3 hours by bus!

Unless the services actually work in people's favour then they will opt for their own transport.
Posted By: TBM

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 30/12/19 06:35 AM

Not much difference for me either - I live in Rushden, work 25 miles away in Milton Keynes. By car, I usually leave the house about 6.20am, and get to work at around 6.50am.

By public transport, I would need to get the 5.50am bus, and after four other buses, would finally arrive at work at around 8.32am.

Ideally, I'd live closer, but houses in my price range don't exist in MK.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 30/12/19 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by TBM
By public transport, I would need to get the 5.50am bus, and after four other buses, would finally arrive at work at around 8.32am.


Yes, I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that the public transport system in the UK outside the south-east is complete pants.

But that doesn't mean it always has to be that way. We need to break free from 20th century thinking, just as in the post-WW1 period we had to break from 19th century thinking.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 30/12/19 11:13 AM

We have a bus system that often runs at the same time as the trains. If a train is cancelled, as happens often, by the time you get to the bus stop the bus has already left. Since the local trains run every hour it would make sense to have the bus at a half hour after the train, but no, they run it at the same time as the train.
Posted By: Robbie

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 30/12/19 11:17 AM

Peter - you think that is bad - how about the train leaving Rosslare port 15Minutes BEFORE the ferry from the UK arrives!!!!!
Posted By: TBM

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 30/12/19 11:25 AM

Trains definitely get the priority round here - we're finally coming to the end of two years of major road closures so that they can raise the rail bridges due to electrification of the line. I thought it would have been just as easy to lower the rails.....

Rushden is one of the countries biggest towns that doesn't have a rail station (thanks Beeching). - there are plans (since 2009 - Rushden Parkway), but not sure if they'll ever come to fruition....
Posted By: Taffmog

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 02:05 AM

Robbie, same this end too! The Holyhead /London train leaves shortly before the Dun Laoghaire / Holyhead ferry arrives, crazy!
Posted By: Georgetoad

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 02:56 AM

I have lived in Hampton Roads Virginia for 43 years and have never used a city bus or city rail. I have also never used Amtrak to get to New York or anywhere else in the US or Canada
On a recent visit to Uk we stayed in Kingston, Worthing, Bourton on the water and Newquay, Wales. An EV would have worked except that charging points were not available at any hotel we used. Our main travelling in the US is between home and Savannah GA a distance of 500 miles. Easily done in a day but would take 2 by EV, including a hotel stay.
Posted By: TBM

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Georgetoad
Our main travelling in the US is between home and Savannah GA a distance of 500 miles. Easily done in a day but would take 2 by EV, including a hotel stay.


Not necessarily - a Tesla range is about 350 miles, and a 'supercharger' can give you a decent charge in about 30 mins (while you're having a comfort break) smile

(Assuming you take the I-95, there's a supercharger at Lumberton and Santee)
Posted By: TheCustomer

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 10:07 AM

As Pandy says, the legislation will drive availability. If EU manufacturers don't get to 92 carbons, their profits disappear in fines.

The next challenge is the charging infrastructure. My local council is putting in 230 charging lampposts, so that we're all within 5 minutes walk of a charge. Today, the are twice as many electric cars on our square as the planned number of charging posts. 2 cars, 1 post. For over 750 homes. So that's not going to work. If the Council install more posts, the power supply infrastructure will need upgrading.

It'll be a while until supply and demand even out. By which time hydrogen might be a commercial reality - the pitch being "no need to find a charge point and wait to fuel up. Drive in to a local filling station, fill up, drive on hydrogen"
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by TheCustomer

It'll be a while until supply and demand even out. By which time hydrogen might be a commercial reality - the pitch being "no need to find a charge point and wait to fuel up. Drive in to a local filling station, fill up, drive on hydrogen"


Another reason to support hydrogen is that our big V8s can be converted to run on hydrogen as easily as LPG. They all we produce is steam!
Posted By: DaveK

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 12:11 PM

Have a look at the following:
Why Hydrogen Car will be Tesla's Biggest Threat at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbojSLdgs50

I sure if you just put the title into YouTube you will find it.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 12:21 PM

I believe hydrogen does not work so well in an existing internal combustion engine and there is also the problem of NOx, though this could probably be catered for using Addblue the same as today's diesels.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Adaptation of existing engines

The differences between a hydrogen ICE and a traditional gasoline engine include hardened valves and valve seats, stronger connecting rods, non-platinum tipped spark plugs, a higher voltage ignition coil, fuel injectors designed for a gas instead of a liquid, larger crankshaft damper, stronger head gasket material, modified (for supercharger) intake manifold, positive pressure supercharger, and a high temperature engine oil. All modifications would amount to about one point five times (1.5) the current cost of a gasoline engine. These hydrogen engines burn fuel in the same manner that gasoline engines do.

The theoretical maximum power output from a hydrogen engine depends on the air/fuel ratio and fuel injection method used. The stoichiometric air/fuel ratio for hydrogen is 34:1. At this air/fuel ratio, hydrogen will displace 29% of the combustion chamber leaving only 71% for the air. As a result, the energy content of this mixture will be less than it would be if the fuel were gasoline. Since both the carbureted and port injection methods mix the fuel and air prior to it entering the combustion chamber, these systems limit the maximum theoretical power obtainable to approximately 85% of that of gasoline engines. For direct injection systems, which mix the fuel with the air after the intake valve has closed (and thus the combustion chamber has 100% air), the maximum output of the engine can be approximately 15% higher than that for gasoline engines.

Therefore, depending on how the fuel is metered, the maximum output for a hydrogen engine can be either 15% higher or 15% less than that of gasoline if a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio is used. However, at a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio, the combustion temperature is very high and as a result it will form a large amount of nitrogen oxides (NOx), which is a criteria pollutant. Since one of the reasons for using hydrogen is low exhaust emissions, hydrogen engines are not normally designed to run at a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio.

Typically hydrogen engines are designed to use about twice as much air as theoretically required for complete combustion. At this air/fuel ratio, the formation of NOx is reduced to near zero. Unfortunately, this also reduces the power output to about half that of a similarly sized gasoline engine. To make up for the power loss, hydrogen engines are usually larger than gasoline engines, and/or are equipped with turbochargers or superchargers.
Posted By: TheCustomer

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 01:34 PM

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...nt-we-burn-hydrogen-instead-of-gasoline/ would suggest is not a good idea
Posted By: JMcL

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 08:20 PM

Re. Hydrogen, fuel cells may not be the way ahead either.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: MJF

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 31/12/19 10:11 PM

I think I am right in saying that 100kWh of electricity will produce petrol with an energy value of 50kWh. If it is then used in an ICE at 30% efficiency it will result in 15KWh of energy. So whilst the above does not look brilliant producing hydrogen and then using in a fuel cell, it is more efficient than has ever been achieved producing petrol and then using in an ICE.
Posted By: Image

Re: Morgan and the electric car - 01/01/20 04:08 AM

Another factor is that, aside from hydro, renewables are largely intermittent.... Going the hydrogen route allows storage in times of glut helping to mitigate this.... Going the direct AC/charge route does nothing to help with this fatal flaw of majority wind/solar renewables.

K
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