Talk Morgan

Daimler SP250 Dart

Posted By: +8Rich

Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 03:58 PM

Appearing on Car SOS tonight on Freeview 14 at 1855 tonight, not my regular viewing but I have always had a soft spot for these little V8 machines.

Quite expensive : - dart for sale
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 03:59 PM

Ta for the heads up. I knew it was coming but forgotten when smile
Posted By: Richard Wood

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 04:14 PM

I believe the police used them as unmarked cars in the late 60's together with Sunbeam Tigers with optional 4.7 engine, if I got my facts right.

In the early 70's I had work colleagues with both although only the cooking 4.2 Tiger. Golden days innocent
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 04:16 PM

I recall seeing in the press a police liveried Dart - I hadn't realised they used Tigers as well, lucky boys.
Posted By: Ray

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 04:28 PM

Our part of the world used MGA'S. WE obviously drive slower around here.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 04:39 PM

More taste Ray - how's the knee progress is it this week the visit to the vet wink
Posted By: Ray

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By +8Rich
More taste Ray - how's the knee progress is it this week the visit to the vet wink
. Should have been last Tuesday , but the doc had an emergency in theater so he cancelled. I got another one for tomorrow hope to be given the ok to drive. Really fed up of waiting. Now they say we might have heavy snow...aaah.
Posted By: Jack The Lad

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 05:00 PM

Spot on the boys in blue used the SP250 and the Tiger. Got a couple of friends with them . What puts me off the tiger is the steering column and no seat belt in a head on smash its like a spear in the chest if not sorted out and revamped . ooo



Originally Posted By Richard Wood
I believe the police used them as unmarked cars in the late 60's together with Sunbeam Tigers with optional 4.7 engine, if I got my facts right.

In the early 70's I had work colleagues with both although only the cooking 4.2 Tiger. Golden days innocent
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By Ray
Originally Posted By +8Rich
More taste Ray - how's the knee progress is it this week the visit to the vet wink
. Should have been last Tuesday , but the doc had an emergency in theater so he cancelled. I got another one for tomorrow hope to be given the ok to drive. Really fed up of waiting. Now they say we might have heavy snow...aaah.


Good luck for tomorrow and I hope the weather forecast is wrong for your area thumbs.
Posted By: lightsphere

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 05:26 PM

Thanks for the heads up. My first V8 encounter. I shared accommodation in Golders Green in the 70's with a guy called Robert Stirling Moser, from the USA. He was a specialist Dart engine expert and worked in a garage in the area. Interesting that the engines already needed rebuilding in the early 70's. He was going off to Switzerland and Germany often to perform major surgery on these cars. I believe later he then raced his own SP250'S in the US.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 05:52 PM

The Daimler 2.5L V8 is a superb engine designed by the motorcycle engineer Edward Turner. Very much underrated and very tuneable.
The SP250 or Dart is and oddity which in the past I have been tempted to own one and then I’ve looked at them and had second thoughts.
Posted By: nick w

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 06:12 PM

Me too. Very nearly bought one many years ago but came over all weedy about the fibreglass issues. Silly really, should have bought it. Lovely engine and values have escalated wildly too.
Nick
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 06:25 PM

I could live happily with this one too - a next door neighbour had one of these a few years back when I had the Scimitar and I longed for another V8 when I heard his purring along V6's are just not the same I found out. I was still mourning having to leave my Holden Monaro behind in South Africa at the end of my contract out there hindsight tells me I should have shipped it back.


A lot better value with the same soundtrack : - 250 V8 saloon

This looks like a good car for beer money - I wouldn't get a 4th car past higher authority though...
Posted By: MDS61

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 06:51 PM

Daimler Dart, ugly yet desirable at the same time - I love these cheers
Posted By: Stewart S

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 07:16 PM

Must admit to having a soft spot for the D Dart

I quite like the styling
Posted By: MOG 615

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 07:56 PM

This is one of my specialist subjects. The reason being that there were 2 Morgan +4s that were fitted with that Daimler V8 engines.

The first was XRX 1 which of course is one of the original Lawrence cars from the 60s. The V8 engine was installed when it was in the ownership of Basil Fielding. His team had the cut the frame front at the top in order to mount the engine as far forward as possible in order to clear the steering column, and there were large scallops taken from the valences in order to clear the cylinder heads. It went well but was never as fast as the best of the TR engined cars at the top end BUT it produced loads of torque low down which gave it a real advantage out of slow corners like the hairpin at Mallory. It was later taken to S Africa by James Henderson, and it was sold to Steve Spencer on his return. All this while it was Daimler V8 engined.
However when the Kremer Brothers acquired the car in the 2000s they found it was ineligible for any FIA Historic events so BHM re-engined it back to a TR based power unit. It still competes today in the guise.

The other +4 with the same engine was a +4 that I owned in the early 70s. It was originally registered MGY 701 , and was actually a 1950s flat rad. When I bought it is was converted to a cowled car with fibreglass wings , ultra-light one piece bonnet, doors and some very crude bucket seats. It was campaigned on the hills in Cornwall and Devon in the early 70s. The engine installation was to put it mildly , very crude. The whole unit was canted over to the left in order the clear the steering column. As the HD6 carbs had fixed float chambers this meant one bank ran rich , while the other was lean. Perhaps as a result of this the engine was very worn and the oil consumption was measured in gallons not pints. After trying hard and learning race craft in it I eventually threw in the towel and
installed a hot TR4 from John Mac and my lap times fell by at least 5 seconds per lap at most circuits.

OK the 4 cylinder TR4 did not have anything like the sound track , or charisma of the V8, but the results on paper spoke for themselves.
I agree the engine design was great , hemi-headed combustion chambers, nice short stroke , and all alloy to save weight. It really was a work of art, but it needed to be correct , well installed, and some decent exhaust manifolds before it would give the performance to match.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 08:10 PM

Every day is a school day - thank you very much for that history lesson there on the Daimler V8's fitted to Morgan's fascinating I'd never read nor heard anything about these cars.
Posted By: nick w

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By +8Rich
Every day is a school day - thank you very much for that history lesson there on the Daimler V8's fitted to Morgan's fascinating I'd never read nor heard anything about these cars.

+1
Nick
Posted By: Jack The Lad

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 28/01/19 11:06 PM

I wrote Tiger I should have wrote SP250 .
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By +8Rich

A lot better value with the same soundtrack : - 250 V8 saloon

That looks rather nice Rich!
Originally Posted By MOG 615
This is one of my specialist subjects. The reason being that there were 2 Morgan +4s that were fitted with that Daimler V8 engines.

I agree the engine design was great , hemi-headed combustion chambers, nice short stroke , and all alloy to save weight. It really was a work of art, but it needed to be correct , well installed, and some decent exhaust manifolds before it would give the performance to match.


Wow, never knew any of that. Thanks for the info. Andy thumbs
Posted By: howard

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 08:13 AM

In the 60s I had digs at a thrological college just outside Oxford, a place called Boars Hill. Had a pal there, a young curate under training. He had both a Daimler Dart and a Vincent Black Shadow garaged at the college.

Interesting place. There were far more young ladies staying there overnight than even happened in the college proper. For some reason a curate seems to be attractive to girls. Or at least it did then.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 08:21 AM

Another DD fan , possibly due to that lovely v8 that was not developed further due to BL cutbacks ? Darts are pretty expensive now which is a pity or we'd all have one.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 08:21 AM

A curate eh....
A line of girls would be a queue rate?
Posted By: mph

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 08:51 AM

It was Jaguar that bought out Daimler and decided not to develop the V8. They did use it in their Mk2 saloon though.

There was a second, larger V8 (3.5litre), made by Daimler at the same time, but this was only used in their larger saloon the Daimler Majestic Major. Imagine if both had been developed further.

As mentioned previously, the motorcycle engineer, Edward Turner designed the engine. He was also responsible for the Ariel Square four and the Triumph vertical twin designs.

The Daimler engine has a lot of potential but it's expensive to liberate.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 10:46 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_V8_engines

BLMC chairman Sir Donald Stokes decided not to develop the little Daimler v8 .
Posted By: James B W

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 11:16 AM

big fan of the DD too - although I admit it is a bit 'Marmite'.

Useless bit of trivia; Question Wilson (everyone's favourite car guru getcoat ) owns one - apparently, one of his all time favourite cars thinking


James
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 12:12 PM

I could never get on with the looks of the Dart. We had one in our little playground at one point. It did go and handle quite well for it's time. I was surprised to find out it was glassfibre given it was Daimler.

I had part ownership in a Daimler Majestic Major Herse at one point. It pulled along quite well with the 3.5L but we were warned to keep changing the oil and water.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 01:09 PM

This thread has certainly bought out some affection and a lot of knowledge of the car, thanks everyone for your contributions it's been most interesting reading them.

I'm still amazed at a couple of Morgan's being fitted with these power units.
Posted By: Mogdavid

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 02:00 PM

Hi All

I'm no expert but I think the larger Daimler V8 was 4.5 litres displacement?

Also, I believe the block was cast iron with alloy head?

I like the quirky looks of the Dart and always enjoy seeing them at shows.

Regards to all

David (Mogdavid)
Posted By: mph

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 02:16 PM

Originally Posted By Mogdavid
Hi All

I'm no expert but I think the larger Daimler V8 was 4.5 litres displacement?

Also, I believe the block was cast iron with alloy head?

I like the quirky looks of the Dart and always enjoy seeing them at shows.

Regards to all

David (Mogdavid)


I think you're right. Don't know where I got 3.5 litre from.
Posted By: mph

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By madmax
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_V8_engines

BLMC chairman Sir Donald Stokes decided not to develop the little Daimler v8 .


He did sound the death knell for the engine certainly.

However Jaguar had owned Daimler, and the V8 engine, for several years by the time Donald Stokes came on the scene.

My understanding is that they had already decided to phase it out as they embarked on a one model policy with the XJ6.

The larger V8 would certainly have been an interesting engine. If only.

I've never heard of one being developed privately or used in a Special, which seems a shame really. Unless anyone knows differently ?

Posted By: Richard Wood

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By Alistair
I could never get on with the looks of the Dart. We had one in our little playground at one point. It did go and handle quite well for it's time. I was surprised to find out it was glassfibre given it was Daimler.

I had part ownership in a Daimler Majestic Major Herse at one point. It pulled along quite well with the 3.5L but we were warned to keep changing the oil and water.


Another although larger sports saloon of dubious looks and of same period was the Jensen CV8. It also had a V8 and fibreglass body styled on the preceeding 6 cylinder 541R, no weight saving though as it was so thick. One of the few cars with a published 0-120 time (29.5 secs)

I owned a Mk II, CYK 23C originally bought by singer Susan Maughan (Bobby's girl). Chrysler 383 (6.3 litre, 330 hp V8), driving skinny cross plies through Torqueflite 3 speed auto and embracing Austin Westminster front suspension scared



Testament to the thickness of fibreglass was the effort needed to lift that massive bonnet. Lost count of the number of times I bashed my head on the "beak". It did have four wheel disc brakes, Selectaride rear dampers, LSD and Panhard rod for when things got a little scary though smile

Interesting to note that the Dunlop rear calipers offered poor hand braking, a situation apparently no better 50 + years on with current Morgan rear disc brakes.
Posted By: howard

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 04:19 PM

As a car enthusiast who was about when the Dart was available new, I dont remember it having a particularly good reputation as a car or being sought after. Both the TR4 and the big Healey were more popular. The Dart was aimed at the US market, hence the V8, but didnt succeed there

The problem with growing old is that we end up thinking sentimentally about cars that in their day we didnt think a lot of.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 05:11 PM

Originally Posted By howard
As a car enthusiast who was about when the Dart was available new, I dont remember it having a particularly good reputation as a car or being sought after. Both the TR4 and the big Healey were more popular. The Dart was aimed at the US market, hence the V8, but didnt succeed there

The problem with growing old is that we end up thinking sentimentally about cars that in their day we didnt think a lot of.


Very true the rose tinted spectacles go on I think when we reminisce.
My wife ran an MGB GT about 20 years ago and TBH I have had more fun driving a tractor than I ever did it, very over rated IMHO.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By howard

The problem with growing old is that we end up thinking sentimentally about cars that in their day we didnt think a lot of.


People too......
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By +8Rich
Originally Posted By howard
As a car enthusiast who was about when the Dart was available new, I dont remember it having a particularly good reputation as a car or being sought after. Both the TR4 and the big Healey were more popular. The Dart was aimed at the US market, hence the V8, but didnt succeed there

The problem with growing old is that we end up thinking sentimentally about cars that in their day we didnt think a lot of.


Very true the rose tinted spectacles go on I think when we reminisce.
My wife ran an MGB GT about 20 years ago and TBH I have had more fun driving a tractor than I ever did it, very over rated IMHO.


Well you should have got her a V8...…... smirk2
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By DaveW
Originally Posted By +8Rich
Originally Posted By howard
As a car enthusiast who was about when the Dart was available new, I dont remember it having a particularly good reputation as a car or being sought after. Both the TR4 and the big Healey were more popular. The Dart was aimed at the US market, hence the V8, but didnt succeed there

The problem with growing old is that we end up thinking sentimentally about cars that in their day we didnt think a lot of.


Very true the rose tinted spectacles go on I think when we reminisce.
My wife ran an MGB GT about 20 years ago and TBH I have had more fun driving a tractor than I ever did it, very over rated IMHO.


Well you should have got her a V8...…... smirk2


Why ? she was happy enough with it laugh2
Posted By: DavidR

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 06:31 PM

Had a Dart in the early 80's, very strong engine often used by early drag racers, but in the Dart the TR gearbox was it's weak point. I recall the Police models were all autos as they wanted something to catch up with those miscreants on the early M1, probably also stronger than the manual.

Mine was certainly fast once eased off the line, I'm told 80 in 2nd, 110 in 3rd and 130 in top was possible and I couldn't possibly comment! Proved to be very fast cross country transport.

I agree not everyones cup of tea, but to me one of those cars that is actually better looking in the flesh.
Posted By: A11OGE

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 06:37 PM

I recall that when the Jag engineers, who had been used to driving the E type, first got hold of a Dart they nearly died as the handling was so poor compared to the E type.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By A11OGE
I recall that when the Jag engineers, who had been used to driving the E type, first got hold of a Dart they nearly died as the handling was so poor compared to the E type.


I wonder what the little V8 would have been like in an E Type....and in the Triumph Stag?
Posted By: nick w

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 08:25 PM

That would have made a good Stag. Saved all those owners changing to a rover engine.
Nick
Posted By: Richard Wood

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 10:26 PM

The GT6 was another underrated car in my opinion. Did a few miles in a friends many years ago. Supremely smooth long legged motoring. Loved the gearknob mounted switch to flip in and out of standard fit overdrive in third or fourth.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 10:34 PM

Those sixes sound lovely too.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 29/01/19 10:49 PM

A workmate had a GT6. Burgundy ish colour. Lovely car.
It would have been hard to turn down if available.
Posted By: Richard Wood

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 30/01/19 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By +8Rich
Originally Posted By howard
As a car enthusiast who was about when the Dart was available new, I dont remember it having a particularly good reputation as a car or being sought after. Both the TR4 and the big Healey were more popular. The Dart was aimed at the US market, hence the V8, but didnt succeed there

The problem with growing old is that we end up thinking sentimentally about cars that in their day we didnt think a lot of.


Very true the rose tinted spectacles go on I think when we reminisce.
My wife ran an MGB GT about 20 years ago and TBH I have had more fun driving a tractor than I ever did it, very over rated IMHO.


I think the rose tinted spec scenario can work in reverse, for me at least as I get older. Distinctive cars I may have dismissed as ugly back in the day now hold a classic beauty for me. I would certainly love my old CV8 back, and not just because its now worth 50 times what I sold it for, which in itself was a modest profit in the mid 70's.

Whilst at college in Leeds a fellow student bought an Austin 7 Chummy. I couldn't for the life of me understand why. How I would love one now though wink
Posted By: mph

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 30/01/19 08:35 AM

I've also owned a CV8 but due to working overseas at the time I hardly got to drive it and certainly wouldn't mind another.

Given that the use of classic cars will eventually disappear due to legislation I'd like to own some of the cars I've always been interested in while it's still possible. Surprisingly most of them are still affordable and not exotic.

Riley RM
Sunbeam Talbot/Alpine (1950's)
Jensen 541
Ford Pilot
Volvo Amazon
Jaguar S type
Any Allard (these are a bit pricey)
The list goes on...
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 30/01/19 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By Richard Wood
Originally Posted By +8Rich
Originally Posted By howard
As a car enthusiast who was about when the Dart was available new, I dont remember it having a particularly good reputation as a car or being sought after. Both the TR4 and the big Healey were more popular. The Dart was aimed at the US market, hence the V8, but didnt succeed there

The problem with growing old is that we end up thinking sentimentally about cars that in their day we didnt think a lot of.


Very true the rose tinted spectacles go on I think when we reminisce.
My wife ran an MGB GT about 20 years ago and TBH I have had more fun driving a tractor than I ever did it, very over rated IMHO.


I think the rose tinted spec scenario can work in reverse, for me at least as I get older. Distinctive cars I may have dismissed as ugly back in the day now hold a classic beauty for me. I would certainly love my old CV8 back, and not just because its now worth 50 times what I sold it for, which in itself was a modest profit in the mid 70's.

Whilst at college in Leeds a fellow student bought an Austin 7 Chummy. I couldn't for the life of me understand why. How I would love one now though wink


That's quite true I look at these little Austin box cars and feel an instant affection for them which I certainly didn't when my late grandfather had one.

That CV8 is a real good looking car I'm not surprised you'd like that back they always looked Italian to me for some reason the stylish lines I guess. I had no idea they were fibreglass until you said.
Posted By: howard

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 30/01/19 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By Richard Wood
The GT6 was another underrated car in my opinion. Did a few miles in a friends many years ago. Supremely smooth long legged motoring. Loved the gearknob mounted switch to flip in and out of standard fit overdrive in third or fourth.


Got one new for my 21st. Says a lot about my taste in cars because the alternative was either a TR or a big healey. The latter was dismissed as being obsolete by then (1966) and I fancied the mini E type style of the GT6.

It wasnt a bad car but neither was it anything remarkable. But then very few cars are remarkable. It was slower than the TR. Reliable.

HKW1F - where are you now?
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 31/01/19 04:55 PM

So what did we think of the program - it's the first complete one I've watched, I thought the engineer (Fuzz) was really great but the other bloke a complete idiot, every time he visited a parts supplier I cringed.
A lovely story for the cars owner I thought after his bad luck and the subsequent injuries after his plane crash.
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 31/01/19 08:11 PM

The idiot Tim is very highly qualified and has invented things and made shedloads. So although he plays the fool he isn't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Shaw_(presenter)

That's not to say he isn't irritating.
Posted By: Richard Wood

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 31/01/19 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By howard
Originally Posted By Richard Wood
The GT6 was another underrated car in my opinion. Did a few miles in a friends many years ago. Supremely smooth long legged motoring. Loved the gearknob mounted switch to flip in and out of standard fit overdrive in third or fourth.


Got one new for my 21st. Says a lot about my taste in cars because the alternative was either a TR or a big healey. The latter was dismissed as being obsolete by then (1966) and I fancied the mini E type style of the GT6.

It wasnt a bad car but neither was it anything remarkable. But then very few cars are remarkable. It was slower than the TR. Reliable.

HKW1F - where are you now?


The reg shows up as on a small CZ motorbike now confused2
Posted By: howard

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 02/02/19 02:03 PM

Originally Posted By Richard Wood
Originally Posted By howard
Originally Posted By Richard Wood
The GT6 was another underrated car in my opinion. Did a few miles in a friends many years ago. Supremely smooth long legged motoring. Loved the gearknob mounted switch to flip in and out of standard fit overdrive in third or fourth.


Got one new for my 21st. Says a lot about my taste in cars because the alternative was either a TR or a big healey. The latter was dismissed as being obsolete by then (1966) and I fancied the mini E type style of the GT6.

It wasnt a bad car but neither was it anything remarkable. But then very few cars are remarkable. It was slower than the TR. Reliable.

HKW1F - where are you now?


The reg shows up as on a small CZ motorbike now confused2


Fascinating - I'd forgotten that. The CZ 175 is what I transferred the reg no to when I sold the car, only to find that at that time you couldnt transfer back to a car later on. So the number went when I sold the bike.

God that was an aweful bike whose only merit was that it was cheap. Got rid when I finally lost courage at being overtaken by busses and lorries in Sheffield city traffic.
Posted By: howard

Re: Daimler SP250 Dart - 02/02/19 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By DaveW
The idiot Tim is very highly qualified and has invented things and made shedloads. So although he plays the fool he isn't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Shaw_(presenter)

That's not to say he isn't irritating.


No. It makes him even more irritating.
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