Talk Morgan

Defender

Posted By: Alistair

Defender - 30/04/19 05:53 PM

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/the-toughest-most-capable-land-rover-ever/40093

I am surprised there has not been more comment knowing we have some long term Defender lovers on the board.

(I'll just leave this here and hide.)
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 06:21 PM

A sad but logical day. It is easy to sack UK folk & producing abroad is cheaper.
Posted By: taffy

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 06:56 PM

A member of my family works for JLR and basically its a Disco 5!
Posted By: Culminator

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 07:26 PM

It certainly looks Like a Discovery 5!
Posted By: taffy

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 07:30 PM

It has the disco chassis and most of the running gear!
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:07 PM

I just don't get the range overlap, even more when the Jaguar'd versions are included.
Posted By: howard

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:09 PM

I agree. The JLR product line is a bit of a mess.
Posted By: MDS61

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By howard
I agree. The JLR product line is a bit of a mess.


Vehicle quality is also woeful confused2
Posted By: ewn

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:43 PM

I’ll buy one of those when my VW blows up, but I don’t want any luxury stuff, just towing capacity like the old one and hopefully a lot more room for the driver and a decent turning circle. I’d prefer rubber flooring, tough cloth seats, in marketeering world, this will probably be an extra cost downgrade. laugh2
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 10:27 PM

To be honest, this car looks like there was very little effort to emotionally connect to Defender. But let's see what it looks like without camouflage and if it can set a "functional" accent...just like the Defender over all the decades. The emotional secret of the Defender was its roughness and its long history.

Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 11:13 PM

Yes it's the rugged look that appeals to me and most of the owners that I know locally. That and the fact you can hose the inside out grin2.
This new rendition looks like yet another that will appeal to the hipster city boys.
We'll see when the wraps come off.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 05:50 AM

A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.
Posted By: Northernmorgan

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 06:31 AM

It will be too expensive for the people who need such a vehicle for its proper use and what’s more it won’t be built in this country. So an icon has gone and will not be replaced...well, in my view.
At least it won’t be a long lived vehicle.....in 30 years time it’ll be in the crusher unless it can be electrified.🙄
Posted By: Obie

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By MDS61
Originally Posted By howard
I agree. The JLR product line is a bit of a mess.


Vehicle quality is also woeful confused2


Agree with both of you, too many variations of a similar theme.
As for reliability, I had to reject my Discovery Sport using the consumer Rights act due to a major manufacturing fault with the construction of the B pillar. The cure was removing the interior trim, drilling, bending and welding the pillar, not good on a new vehicle.
Shame as a reason for buying was supporting British jobs.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:28 AM

Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:40 AM

Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.


I wonder what vehicle the British Military will now purchase for general work?

Certainly, the local farmers down here, gave up on Defenders a long time ago. The majority now use crew-cab pick-ups from Nissan, Toyota or Mitsubishi.
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:15 AM

Quote:
I wonder what vehicle the British Military will now purchase for general work?


The MoD has a "white fleet" of leased cars vans and trucks for general purpose (non combat) movement of people and goods. A Land Rover Defender does not really fit as an efficient mover of goods or people as a van / cheaper saloon car will be always be more efficient.

For combat based activities the Oshkosh JLTV is most likely to become the standard product which replaces the role that the Defender would have historically been used for. This is a completely different size of platform to the Defender to provide the necessary blast and ballistic mitigation which is now required.

A Defender type platform would appear to have no role in the future of UK military operations which has probably influenced the direction that Land Rover has taken with the Defender.
Posted By: TimG

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:16 AM

Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone. Perhaps Jim Ratcliffs Ineos will produce the real succesor.
Posted By: Rovert

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone. Perhaps Jim Ratcliffs Ineos will produce the real succesor.


I am somewhat embarrassed to say that my TDCI (Puma) has central locking, electric windows, air con, carpets and sound proofing (though I added that).
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .


This isn't a personal go at you, but to make the analogy relevant, is it any more daft than having a 4.8l engine in a country where you can't legally drive in excess of 70mph on the public road? hide

The right to own a car whose capability exceeds its intended or probable use is called freedom (or vanity, depending on your viewpoint). Long may it continue. thumbs
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 09:21 AM

I own a Chelsea Tractor, full fat whats worse is I don't even live in Chelsea never mind take it off road. Although our local free car park can get a bit muddy. I say this from the position of someone you probably make your comment towards, not an issue. I don't NEED a 4WD or big high thing.

We have a Morgan and a Mini. Neither have any carrying capacity. We are lucky/hard working enough to have the privilege of another car which has a decent boot for real day jobs. It used to be a decent estate, MB E series but we decided to try an SUV at the last round to see what all the fuss was about. It feels like half our road has converted to SUV ownership of various sizes over the last 20 years. So an MB ML class lorry arrived about 2 years ago.

Pro's
The high position does give a more relaxing driving situation as your view is further. This means more reaction time and less stress. This leads to a more relaxed person during the drive (sadly as mentioned before this also means the poor sod behind you is just looking at a black expanse, yes it's black) The better view also makes SWMBO happier as she is not looking at cars. With the seats, air suspension and smothering mass the ride is very good and you could drive for 10 hours and feel fine at the end.

Con's
SWMBO senior has trouble getting in and out even with the Chelsea step on the side. She does like the view once in. The boot is not really larger than the E estate but perhaps a bit taller for square objects. The sheer weight is very obvious, I am getting through brake pads and shortly discs. You don't want to push through a corner to carry momentum. Even with air suspension and "sport" mode you can feel it is not natural to push on. The estate was miles ahead in this respect. Stopping distances need that extra vision. The E had the same engine as the ML (and despite my driving style relaxing considerably) the MPG is a good 10-20% worse.

I think the replacement for this is going to be a difficult one. I would like to go back to an estate but SWMBO will take some convincing to lose the nice view and relaxing driving gait it creates.

Different but not an improvement would be my observation.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone.

Exactly...
Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase.

Not all are limited to supermarket car parks as "off-road" territory Steve. Stuart also has a point smile
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:02 PM

One effect I have noticed in France which seems to have resulted from the proliferation of SUV's has been an increase in aggressive driving, most noticeably from those behind the wheel of such vehicles.

I don't have any facts to back this up, so it is an entirely anecdotal observation, but I guess that the sense of safety and security that comes from the chunky styling and elevated driving position may contribute.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By MJF


For combat based activities the Oshkosh JLTV is most likely to become the standard product which replaces the role that the Defender would have historically been used for.


Crikey. Oshkosh seem to have moved on from the expensive baby and toddler clothes market
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:09 PM

As far as the new Defender is concerned, I share the disappointment already expressed, but maybe JLR have decided that it's impossible to make money trying to take on the likes of the Toyota Hilux in the rugged dependable workhorse market which was the fiefdom of the original Land Rover.
Posted By: SFG

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:23 PM

Too soon to know?
Posted By: JB62

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 03:20 PM



Even better than a Defender
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 05:27 PM

Well if it's good enough for Daniel Craig in the new Bond movie grin2
Posted By: taffy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:10 PM

They (JLR) were making very little on the Defender as it was never designed for robotic manufacture. It failed on Safety aspects (no airbags,etc) as well as the front had no crumple zone,etc. Actually it sounds like a morgan!
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone.

Exactly...
Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase.

Not all are limited to supermarket car parks as "off-road" territory Steve. Stuart also has a point smile



Most are going up and down the motorway or picking up kids , how much wear does the low range cog get , none ! As far as 4.8 litre cars are concerned thats not big these days , nor is 380 bhp .
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:19 PM

I can see the benefits of using shared components, no issue with that. I just hope it is a hose down, rubber and neoprene, rugged, workhorse inside so it does stick to the stereotype.
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:49 PM

I don't really understand the anti 4x4 feelings on here.

I have owned two Defenders and 3 Range Rovers and the Defenders were brilliant for knocking about country lanes in Pembrokeshire where the height meant I could see over hedges and was used to tow a boat and launch off beaches. I never needed to use low ratio, but the ground clearance and 4 wheel drive were useful as was the fact that you could get into the car wet and dirty and not worry.

As I have said before on here my Range Rovers have been the most reliable cars I have ever owned and are brilliant for doing 600-800 miles in a day in complete comfort, with lots of gear / dog onboard. We spend a lot of time in Austria and I have never got stuck in the snow where the ground clearance and 4x4 is vital - but have not yet needed low ratio.

Isn't this just about horses for courses - they are a tool for a job and do it well - as does a Morgan to provide fun. I just wouldn't try and drive 800 miles in a day in the snow with kids, dog and suitcases in a Morgan, much as I wouldn't try and drive for fun in a Defender or Range Rover.
Posted By: Northernmorgan

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .


About as daft as buying a high powered sports car that will never see a race track 🙄
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By Alistair
I can see the benefits of using shared components, no issue with that. I just hope it is a hose down, rubber and neoprene, rugged, workhorse inside so it does stick to the stereotype.


That's a good wishlist.

Mine would be:

<1860mm in overall width
Wheels allow 60+ tyre profile
Front wing edges visible to driver

If it's based very closely on a Disco chassis then it's not looking too hopeful on a couple of those.

Shame, as rumoured auto option and petrol engines would be welcome. (My '12 G Wag changed my mind on autos for off-roading. They can be set up to be far more usable than a manual). Unitary body wouldn't bother me, but air-springs would be a no-no.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone.

Exactly...
Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase.

Not all are limited to supermarket car parks as "off-road" territory Steve. Stuart also has a point smile



Graham , I fully understand having a 4wd for those in country areas but central London and motorway use only seems at odds with 2 tonne 4wd and size .
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:18 PM

Yes Steve, but you didn't say that originally! smile
Mine, when I drive it, could be out for various reasons, not often driven long motorway distances though Sue and I have done long trips in them - plenty of luggage/dog space.
Mainly it gets used to provide safety radio cover for various events where I will very likely not be on tarmac (apart from getting to a venue). I have also retrieved many inadequately equipped motorists from ditches &c. particularly during the cooler parts of the year (I'm sure Tim has done the same). Sometimes it is just so I can continue a journey along a road blocked by some numpty who has no idea how to drive when conditions become less than ideal.
As for central London, I'll leave that to Reg! grin2
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
Yes Steve, but you didn't say that originally! smile
Mine, when I drive it, could be out for various reasons, not often driven long motorway distances though Sue and I have done long trips in them - plenty of luggage/dog space.
Mainly it gets used to provide safety radio cover for various events where I will very likely not be on tarmac (apart from getting to a venue). I have also retrieved many inadequately equipped motorists from ditches &c. particularly during the cooler parts of the year (I'm sure Tim has done the same). Sometimes it is just so I can continue a journey along a road blocked by some numpty who has no idea how to drive when conditions become less than ideal.
As for central London, I'll leave that to Reg! grin2



'Off road ' !
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:33 PM

Yes, all kinds of non metalled areas...
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 04:27 PM

Just hoping it will tow 3.5T and cost a lot less than the current Discovery.
Posted By: Burgundymog

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 04:34 PM

I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive


It doesn't say much about the inbuilt security if they are that easy to steal... or is it the keyless entry "amplification" routine being used?

Mercedes has introduced a new layer of security. Lay your key fob down on a shelf or table and after 30 seconds it turns its self off, until picked up. Logical and simple.
Posted By: Alan Patterson

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive

Thanks for the heads-up Keith. My son has just bought a Range Rover Sport, so I'll let him know he needs to invest in a decent Tracker as things tend to go walkabout round where he lives. A while ago someone relieved him of his exhaust while the car was on his drive.
Posted By: Shooter

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 06:16 PM

I saw the new Defender today by the Roadside outside Cirencester in it zebra squirly print glory. No time to stop to take a picture.

Not sure if it had broken down :-)
Posted By: BobtheTrain

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive

Can't the scum now detect them with an electronic gizmo? So I have heard from my neighbour who told this by the police when his van was stolen.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 05:31 AM

I’ve got one of the last TD5 Defender County (2007). I’ve always been paranoid about the the theft issue of these vehicles. One of the best security mods is fitting a Optimil QR steering wheel. At least it will slow the low life down if they do attempt to take it.
Posted By: N22MOG

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 07:10 AM

Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .


I have a Mercedes GLS as my daily driver, had it for nearly two years and think it was anything but a daft purchase.
It has seven seats when needed (we have a big family - 13 grandchildren!), huge load carrying capacity ( I’ve moved a sofa, a double bed and more garden centre purchases than I care to admit too), it’ll transport 5 adults plus their full size suitcases, it’s a real workhorse. It’s also the most comfortable motorway cruiser I’ve ever had, you can get out at the end of a whole day of driving and feel like you’ve only been in it for a short while. It “only” has a 3 litre Diesel engine but it was built by AMG so has plenty of pick up. It replaced my previous E class saloon which was quite comfortable but absolutely hopeless if it snowed, the GLS is permanent 4WD.
I don’t see that any of these benefits could be considered as daft and I’m surprised at how much anti-SUV feeling there is. Take a look in any public car park (around where I live in Kent at least) and a large percentage of the cars are SUVs so we can’t all be wrong can we? In fact public car parking is probably the only down side as it it a big car. I doubt I’d have bought it if I still lived in London.
I’m know there are people that don’t “get” Morgans who think that my Plus 8 is daft - no boot, no power steering, no radio, no suspension (😉), not easy to get into, very low, need to grease the suspension etc. It’s just horses for courses. If we all bought vehicles based on logic and being sensible we'd all be driving around in identical boxes on wheels.
Posted By: Northernmorgan

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 07:25 AM

Well said Steve! I get tired of the derogatory remarks on here at times regarding SUVs.
Mines probably the most comfortable car I’ve ever had and hugely practical. I’ll never take it off road apart from fields and the odd forest track but it suits me and what I want from a vehicle.
Each to their own....certain people like extremely noisy exhausts and find it amusing to wake the neighbours and set off car alarms. Enough said!
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By Northernmorgan
Well said Steve! I get tired of the derogatory remarks on here at times regarding SUVs.
Mines probably the most comfortable car I’ve ever had and hugely practical. I’ll never take it off road apart from fields and the odd forest track but it suits me and what I want from a vehicle.
Each to their own....certain people like extremely noisy exhausts and find it amusing to wake the neighbours and set off car alarms. Enough said!


SUV = practical car , Morgan = non practical car , suppose we need both !
Posted By: TimG

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive


In defence of JLR recent tests by ADAC found that 2018 Discoverys & Range Rovers & 2019 Evoque & Jag XE were not vulnerable to relay attack. Yes you can fit a tracker but far preferable not to get stolen at all so use a mechanical steering lock & keep the key in Faraday shielded pouch. Never understood the logic of making your car more vulnerable to theft for a "convienience" feature. I never found it hard to get a key out of my pocket, insert it in a lock & turn to start the car.
MJF you have been fortunate to have reliable Range Rovers. JLR have languished at the bottom of reliability surveys for years. Certainly all cars are getting more reliable but even Toyotas do break down. The most reliable car is a Suzuki Swift.
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 01:19 PM

Quote:
MJF you have been fortunate to have reliable Range Rovers.


I recognise that my experience does fly in the face of published statistics, but it is hard not to be influenced by your own overwhelmingly positive experience.

The telling call will come next year when the current one is due to be replaced - do I go for my 4th one or do something different ? The key issue I have at the moment is the lack of modern engines in the Range Rover when compared with the other European manufacturers rather than any other concerns.

Your post did make me look again at some reliability surveys which has prompted me to conclude that I don't like any of the cars in the upper sections of the survey anyway, so it looks like whatever I do, I will be consigned to be at the riskier end of things.
Posted By: TimG

Re: Defender - 04/05/19 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By MJF

The telling call will come next year when the current one is due to be replaced - do I go for my 4th one or do something different ?

If your current one is still running reliably & still does what you need keep it. Perhaps it falls foul of the new London emissions zone. Change for change sake alone & you could be buying trouble.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 04/05/19 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By taffy
A member of my family works for JLR and basically its a Disco 5!

Interesting - thought that when I saw the spy shots.

Meanwhile Defender owners can look at the pickup trucks / Hiluxes of the world, or maybe the Ineos guy's https://projektgrenadier.com/
Posted By: ewn

Re: Defender - 05/05/19 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By PaulV
Originally Posted By taffy
A member of my family works for JLR and basically its a Disco 5!

Interesting - thought that when I saw the spy shots.

Meanwhile Defender owners can look at the pickup trucks / Hiluxes of the world, or maybe the Ineos guy's https://projektgrenadier.com/


What is it that Ineos is offering? Is it a essentially a new-old Defender? I took a quick look at the website and lost interest, too much blurb and when I read the words, “conceived in a Knightsbridge pub”, I gave up. surrender
Posted By: Burgundymog

Re: Defender - 05/05/19 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By Peter J
Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive


It doesn't say much about the inbuilt security if they are that easy to steal... or is it the keyless entry "amplification" routine being used?

Mercedes has introduced a new layer of security. Lay your key fob down on a shelf or table and after 30 seconds it turns its self off, until picked up. Logical and simple.


Peter they either boost the key signal on keyless entry. Failing that smash a rearseat window to gain entry then use the OBD port to reprogram a key.
Posted By: Burgundymog

Re: Defender - 05/05/19 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By Alan Patterson
Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive

Thanks for the heads-up Keith. My son has just bought a Range Rover Sport, so I'll let him know he needs to invest in a decent Tracker as things tend to go walkabout round where he lives. A while ago someone relieved him of his exhaust while the car was on his drive.


Also a Disklock Thatcham cat 3 on steering wheel, about £130 but well worth it.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 09:18 PM

First viewing of the Defender from the new Bond Movie!

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/new-defender-snapped-before-frankfurt--update/40426
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 09:23 PM

Wow! She looks exactly the way I imagined. And that's very very sad.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 09:30 PM

Yes not worth the wait really, we saw it in dazzle livery at FOS and the shape was dull and unimaginative to say the least.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 10:06 PM

As expected, rather Discovery'ish.
yawn
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 11:53 AM

I won't be selling my 2015 '90' to buy a Discovery with a 'Defender' badge on it!...

There 'was'... an opportunity to do something special here... if Mercedes can keep the 'G-Wagon' true, no idea why JLR crumbled to 'corporate image'...

Such a sad 'evolution' of a 70 year old icon... don't understand why they even bothered.

I forecast it will be a sales 'flop'...
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 12:11 PM



Originally Posted by pete757
I won't be selling my 2015 '90' to buy a Discovery with a 'Defender' badge on it!...

There 'was'... an opportunity to do something special here... if Mercedes can keep the 'G-Wagon' true, no idea why JLR crumbled to 'corporate image'...

Such a sad 'evolution' of a 70 year old icon... don't understand why they even bothered.

I forecast it will be a sales 'flop'...


There are already noticeably fewer Defenders here in Devon.
Most of the farmers already use L200s, or Hilux crewcabs.
Also at a recent local horse trials Defenders now seem to be in the minority.

Really sad and especially as I worked for Land Rover Ltd from 1979 for 10 years. This meant I saw the development and introduction of the 90 & 110.
Posted By: Rovert

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by pete757
I won't be selling my 2015 '90' to buy a Discovery with a 'Defender' badge on it!...

There 'was'... an opportunity to do something special here... if Mercedes can keep the 'G-Wagon' true, no idea why JLR crumbled to 'corporate image'...
'...


Agree, just look at how well Suzuki have done with the new Jimny, they cannot make enough of them.
Posted By: Jens

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 02:09 PM

I agree too, this boring Discofender is a lost chance.

Posted By: DavidR

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 04:04 PM

It does seem a strange decision given the popularity of the product as it was. Add to this the number of suppliers of re-engineered vehicles, who seemingly can't keep up with demand even at their high prices.

I've run two Defenders 110s in the past, a 300 TDI (the best IMO) and a TD5. I have off roaded with both, but must admit you do eventually get fed up with banging your head on the roof even when strapped in! They do give you a wonderful feeling that you could drive anywhere over almost any terrain - even the rough old Kings Road drive

JLR say that the Defender design did not fit in with todays manufacturing, so I wonder what did MB do with the G Wagon, is that still made as per the original or was the design modernised?

My personal view is that it is wrong to classify the Defender as a just another chelsea tractor, it is more workhorse. So for heavens sake why do JLR make all of their product range to be Range Rover clones. It would have been much better suited to being big, boxy and utilitarian with plastic bits and pieces that are hard to damage and easy to replace.

Obviously the bean counters have won (apologies to any accountants reading this!) and they've found a use for all those old Disco bits they had stored out the back.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 05:50 PM

In the main, because the largest part of the market is for "soft" roaders.

I will keep the 90 until I'm no longer allowed to drive...
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
In the main, because the largest part of the market is for "soft" roaders.

I will keep the 90 until I'm no longer allowed to drive...


Ahhh! That explains it!!! Aside from the length of the 'wheelbase', I now realise that I can drive my 'old' Defender until I am '90'... or even '110'!
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:06 PM

But probably not '130'!!
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:15 PM

You could always aim for the pre-Defender 127 grin2
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:43 PM

JLR turn out the same clone range of vehicles which are so bland. I’ve had my 2007 Defender TD5 for a number of years now and the amount of compliments I get from various people amazes me.
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 02:14 PM

Indeed!...

.... 'WOW.. that Landrover is so well restored, how old is it?"...

Well, actually, it was riveted together in 2015!
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
JLR turn out the same clone range of vehicles which are so bland. I’ve had my 2007 Defender TD5 for a number of years now and the amount of compliments I get from various people amazes me.


The Td5 Defender is a magnificent beast, many reckon they are the best of the bunch - much smoother, more economical and more powerful than their predecessors but not with unmanageably complex electronics, the aftermarket Nanocom box is all you need. They are also proving to be far more reliable than originally expected. The LR Storm project engineers did a great job with the engine design.

I love our 2002 model, we've had it since it was 6 months old and I wouldn't swap it for the world.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 04:18 PM

I'd buy one of these if the Lottery win comes in...

https://youtu.be/WhDuEmGBfvs

I think it would be the logical move for Alistair, far better than the ML, or whatever it is.
Posted By: Rovert

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
JLR turn out the same clone range of vehicles which are so bland. I’ve had my 2007 Defender TD5 for a number of years now and the amount of compliments I get from various people amazes me.


The Td5 Defender is a magnificent beast, many reckon they are the best of the bunch - much smoother, more economical and more powerful than their predecessors but not with unmanageably complex electronics, the aftermarket Nanocom box is all you need. They are also proving to be far more reliable than originally expected. The LR Storm project engineers did a great job with the engine design.

I love our 2002 model, we've had it since it was 6 months old and I wouldn't swap it for the world.


Before the Puma I had a TD5, Whilst I enjoy the 6 speed box and effective Air-Con/heating, I prefer the TD5. It just sounds so right in a Land Rover. (Cue the 200/300 TDI aficionados)
/
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
I'd buy one of these if the Lottery win comes in...
https://youtu.be/WhDuEmGBfvs
I think it would be the logical move for Alistair, far better than the ML, or whatever it is.


The best news is that the arrival of a new one that does not try and kill you every time you hit the loud pedal is that the older model has taken a dip in price. The old one still does not go around corners, stop or handle in any way but at least it does not cost as disgustingly much as it did before. Yet for some reason I love it. Must be the sidepipes. I love the new one's interior, handling, blatantly stupid price etc etc. My tight roots mean that I will never buy one. Well maybe when they are eight years old and slightly run in, as I pull the Audi A3's and BMW 1's out of the grill.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:23 AM

Well it's D Day.

Launched at Frankfurt, seems an odd choice...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/land-rover-defender--frankfurt-2019/40919
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Alistair
Well it's D Day.

Launched at Frankfurt, seems an odd choice...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/land-rover-defender--frankfurt-2019/40919



Well, Britain no longer has a proper Motor Show (that silly thing in May at the Excel Arena doesn't count). So I guess they looked at Slovakia or India (which would have some relevance) and chose Frankfurt!

Ps. I like it - especially as it seems that the ridiculous blanking panel ( 'signature' ) between the B pillar and C pillar is mandatory only on the 110 and is optional on the 90. The launch X spec seems a bit attention seeking, but useful to know there are 18" steel wheels available. I'll have to wait for mine as the P400e doesn't arrive until 2021. Hopefully will be possible to spec combination of 90, no blanking panel, no front bench, air sus or side steps - whatever costs less, p400e hybrid engine and steel wheels - and paint in a flat grey or green that matches the white steel wheels.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 02:38 PM

Just another Chelsea tractor that will be taking up two slots in the supermarket car Park!
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 03:33 PM


Yes we need these like we need plastic bottled water, they have both timed out IMHO.. Had it have been a farmer friendly vehicle that would be a whole new welcome ballgame, these will litter Waitrose car parks.
We saw it at FOS and it was fugly.
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
Just another Chelsea tractor that will be taking up two slots in the supermarket car Park!


Possibly, but it won't be the fault of the car.

Width (including mirrors):

New Defender 1999mm
VW Golf MkVII 2027mm

Thankfully, the new Defender is only marginally wider than the old one, which was a very narrow vehicle. Anyone who has owned a LR Series car or Defender (you included, I believe) knows that a large part of their on-road usability comes from the fact they get through gaps other cars can't.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by twotribes
Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
Just another Chelsea tractor that will be taking up two slots in the supermarket car Park!


Possibly, but it won't be the fault of the car.

Width (including mirrors):

New Defender 1999mm
VW Golf MkVII 2027mm

Thankfully, the new Defender is only marginally wider than the old one, which was a very narrow vehicle. Anyone who has owned a LR Series car or Defender (you included, I believe) knows that a large part of their on-road usability comes from the fact they get through gaps other cars can't.


You are probably correct Stuart, but not sounding to be sexist, the number of females I see driving v large SUV’s in car parks leaves a lot to be desired as to their driving skills.
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 06:14 PM

Another Discovery.

Hideous. Wilks would not even roll In his grave...

As for the price! Nuts! The 'old' Defender started at 24k... they have got this big time wrong.

I hope it succeeds.... there has been huge $$ invested in this project... and JLR are not in the best position right now...
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:04 PM

YUK!!!
Posted By: M3W55

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:20 PM

At that price, I don't think we will be seeing any real farmers or keepers at the wheel.
Posted By: MDS61

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
YUK!!!

+1
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 06:14 AM

The configurator is up for the 110. I like that you can get white roof, steel wheels etc but “my” spec (S, base diesel, 18” smoked alloys, 3+3 seating, hitch) still made it £53K...

I suspect NewDefender will eat into Discovery and Velar sales, rather than expand LR in the market. Heck, they now sell 2 Jag 4x4s + 6 LR/RR 4x4s! And none of the in the 20-30£K market sweet spot, or electrified (Kia NiroE being what I would get next if I needed a new “car”...).

Interesting that LR is totally opposite of a Morgan in some ways (Tonka toy vs retro mobile), similar in others (eg UK vendor with quality reputation challenges, engine CO2 etc compliance with legacy products, investment in alu chassis, trying to replace a much loved fossil... oops I may get banned from TM now!)
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 07:56 AM

I had hoped that a base spec 110 would be under £50k and therefore could be a viable successor as a 1-2 year old car to our 7 year old Discovery in a few years time. There really is not a lot of choice if you actually need the 3.5T towing capability.
Back to the drawing board.
Posted By: PaulJ

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 09:09 AM

Obviously design is a personal thing, but to my eyes it looks good, but £50k! Yes it will sell and no doubt make good margins for JLR and their dealers, but I really hope they can get their unreliability sorted out. This has put me off even going for a test drive in one of their cars.

With regard to price, what can the agricultural market get these days? It all seems to have swung down to pickup trucks and I'm not sure that farmers would move away to a Defender like product for £30k although I'm certain that JLR would have looked at that market and made a car for it if there was the profit there, but I'm sure there isn't.

As a matter of interest, 2 - 3 of my local farmers just rely on their little quarter ton vans, like the Daihatsu jet something or the old Honda Acty vans. They are old and rough as hell, but seem to go on year after year and do the job admirably. Obviously very little real off road capability, but that doesn't seem to matter too much, the guys just hop on their quad bikes for that, so the market for reasonably priced utilitarian products has changed and I think Land Rover have accepted that.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 12:29 PM

Isuzu, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Ford Rangers most of these with double cabs have taken over the Defender market down here although several of the farms local to me have kept their Defenders.
All these companies were represented at the local Kingsbridge Agricultural Show last Saturday, Land Rover were not to be seen.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by M3W55
At that price, I don't think we will be seeing any real farmers or keepers at the wheel.


Probably why JLR haven't bothered trying to address this market. To be fair, Toyota & co seem to have this sector pretty well stitched up.

FWIW, I think the 2 door version of the new defender looks quite good. For sure, it's a very different animal to the original, but then if they've run up the white flag on the utilitarian workhorse market, then it's not being pitched at the same buyers.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 16/09/19 12:01 PM

The review of the new Defender in Top Gear magazine is very positive.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 16/09/19 06:11 PM

When I read the article in topgear I have to admit that they thought a lot of things about the development of the car.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 12:50 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49725825

Looks like a better Defender is going to be built soon at Bridgend !
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 01:45 PM

God bless him for doing something useful in a stinky climate if it does go ahead. Great way to turn a large fortune into a small fortune. If the government give some edge to him to reduce the impact of all the job losses it would be a good thing.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 02:09 PM

Can't see any reason why Jim Ratcliffe should be given taxpayers' money, since he's moved himself offshore to avoid paying his fair share.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 06:51 PM

Ahh those mad boy South Africans, gotta love the attitude. The steering wheel is even in the right place!

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-japanesecars/toyota-announces-v8-land-cruiser-namib/40969
Posted By: howard

Re: Defender - 22/09/19 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by MJF
I don't really understand the anti 4x4 feelings on here.



Let me try. hide They are an essentially selfish choice for the typical purchaser without a farm / estate / or similar need.. For most B road and smaller, they are too big making life difficult for other roads users. On other roads and particularly with the common "privacy" glass they block out forward vision for road users in normal cars, they take up more parking room, they cause more pollution because of bigger engines / greater fuel consumption. And it seems to me that what once was the BMW lane on the motorway is now populated by Range Rovers driven agressively and fast.

And a significant proportion seem to be driven by women who have no real feel for the size of the thing they are driving nor the speed its going at.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by howard
And a significant proportion seem to be driven by women who have no real feel for the size of the thing they are driving nor the speed its going at.

But they feel so safe! Pity about the occupants of the small city car that they just crushed.

I have come to believe that drivers of the big SUVs, say over 2,000 kg, should have to have a special licence and undergo a course of training and a driving test.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 07:05 AM

+1 Peter having been literally driven into a hedge by one.
Posted By: JB62

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 09:00 AM

Do we need additional training to drive a high powered sports car? Maybe anyone over the age of 60 with outdated thinking on male /female capabilities needs some sort of training?My wife drives our 110 every day along unmade up tracks and so far seems to have avoided running anyone intro a ditch? the 110 is actually narrower than most cars! so on country lanes in Devon squeezes past places other vehicles cant? As to greater fuel consumption - my 1971 Series 2a probably has a lighter carbon footprint than a recent Prius. Look at the cost of manufacture and longevity of much of the JLR output over 50 years vs actual fuel consumption of equally expensively made - but short lasting vehicles that use 10mpg less??

Just a few alternative views.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 09:34 AM

A breath of fresh air on the topic, I see exactly those sort of good road skills exhibited in my rural area including Dartmoor by the lady drivers of Defenders some of whom will be farmers wives or equestrians I imagine and they are very courteous drivers. Not so the Japanese and German 4x4 drivers on the local school run though they really don't seem to have a care for other drivers at all.
Posted By: tmg513

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by +8Rich
A breath of fresh air on the topic, I see exactly those sort of good road skills exhibited in my rural area including Dartmoor by the lady drivers of Defenders some of whom will be farmers wives or equestrians I imagine and they are very courteous drivers. Not so the Japanese and German 4x4 drivers on the local school run though they really don't seem to have a care for other drivers at all.

Are there a lot of inconsiderate Japanese and Germans round your way?
Posted By: The Austrian

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gambalunga

I have come to believe that drivers of the big SUVs, say over 2,000 kg, should have to have a special licence and undergo a course of training and a driving test.

I would not mind as I do have a truck drivers license too😎
Posted By: Jon G4LJW

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 10:58 AM

One thing I like about my parents' CRV is the visibility - makes it much easier to see round bends, and over hedges. A bit of a change from the Morgan!
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 02:38 PM

I will always remember the sight of a Disco Mk2 losing control and spinning on Hwy280 in front of me, narrowly missing a fuel tanker... yes SUVs can have control challenges vs "normal cars". But I'm a smug Yeti 4x2 driver delivering 40mpg... primarily chosen for its high hip point and compact suburban footprint.

I did enjoy the new Defender configurator. But that CO2 output is indeed tragic for 2019 unless you need its capabilities. Then again its CO2 is better than my M3W...
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 03:00 PM

I don’t think the British Military will be buying the new Defender?
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 06:10 PM

The UK military stopped buying the old one years ago as it does not offer the level of protection now required.

The most likely vehicle for the future transport of UK troops in a combat zone is the Oshkosh JLTV which has been developed in the US to replace the HMMWV
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 02:47 PM

I’ve just found out that the new Defender sports 85 ECUs!

scared
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 03:30 PM

[quote=Budster]I’ve just found out that the new Defender sports 85 ECUs!

That’s 84 more than my Defender!
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 05:48 PM

85 more than mine! grin2
Posted By: Mkiss

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 07:06 PM

They should just have renamed it - it has nothing to do with the trad one.
Jus a white roof does not make it a Defender.

Perhaps it should be called the "new Defender" just like the "new Beetle" that had nothing in common with the trad ones....
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 08:07 PM

85 ECUs and every one will be using the cheapest microprocessor they could find that would do that job.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 05/01/20 12:30 PM

One marked "prototype" was at Bicester Scramble this morning. Huge on the outside, small on the inside!
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 05/01/20 02:43 PM

Just like all the rest of the modern 4x4.......Bland and no character. I’ll stick with my TD5 Defender thanks.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 05/01/20 02:54 PM

Yuck, a Disco in drag.
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 05/01/20 03:07 PM

I wonder if part of the problem might be that the modern pedestrian safety regulations mandate such large radius curves on the edges?

IMHO it looks better than the current Discovery. Sadly, they have priced it well out of my reach to consider a new purchase.

A 110 base with the Petrol engine comes out at £50,517 with only mud flaps and a towing kit selected as options. Just too much.

5 years ago, a well specified 110 was £31,000 when we bought a 2 year old Discovery for the same money. Good luck to Land-Rover if they can get people to pay these prices now.
Posted By: 1560

Re: Defender - 27/06/20 01:11 PM

I was 'hunting' for a new car for holidays and mountainbike-transport, went from looking at Mazda6, Merc GLE and even GLS and then MarcoPolo, also testdrove a Gwagen (63amg=ridicilous)
and on the way to the bike-shop I had time to look at the new Ford Transit, they will bring a 'Trail or Active' model, that could suite my needs
but parking at the Ford Dealership I had to park at the LandRover side of the building, had a quick look inside and...saw a bigger car in a corner and curiosity got me, so I went in

It might not look like an Old Def, but it looks good in certain colors (not in silver), and it certainly is a 2020LandRover
When I sat in the driver seat it was 'my size' of car, also, it looks 'rugged', not too posh either

after some waiting I got to testdrive it and: "YES!!!! This is it, all I loved soooooo much in my Range (P38, 1999) came back:, air-suspension, driving a little rough, off-roader-ish, fast enough with 240-diesel-horses
and then I bought it, hope to pick it up next week

we can choose our licence plates freely and I was thinking: "New-P-38" arr
Posted By: Clipper

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 07:32 AM

Or if you prefer the old Defender - try this:

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-n...r-an-old-school-4x4-off-roader-for-2020/
Posted By: Rovert

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Clipper


The thought process, approach and design of the Grenadier is looking quite impressive. Ir is difficult to see it coming in at a price point that would make sense for it's proposed market though.
Posted By: Clipper

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 09:25 AM

"The station wagon’s payload will be one tonne, its towing capacity 3.5 tonnes and the cost will be “nearer Raptor than G-Wagen,” says a spokesperson. To put that into perspective, Ford’s Ranger Raptor costs £42,000 without VAT in the UK. The G-Wagen starts at £92,000 with VAT (there’s no official commercial version in the UK), which means that the Grenadier will likely cost north of £50,000 without VAT."

Source Telegraph article
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 09:36 AM

I risk writing this like a oldgit

However, I worked for, the then, Land Rover Limited from 1979 to 1988.
My main role was as an overseas sales executive. (Asia and Pacific)
So I always view the product developments with great interest,

Land Rover lost much of their overseas market share during the 1980s with the rise of Toyota and Nissan.
The Japanese produced tough, reliable and inexpensive 4 x 4s, Land Rover didn’t!
Certainly the Series 3, then 90 and 110s were tough, but increasingly reliability was poor and prices became uncompetitive.

Their new range success relies, IMHO, too much on selling status.
They drift further and further away from Tom Barton’s original ideas and the new Defender reflects their new philosophy.

Now I’m definitely sounding like an oldgit but I know they could have taken a different path in he 1980s, had not the management of the company not been so obsessed with their own status.


I’m off for a sit down.
budster

Bud
4/4 - Stanley
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Clipper


It’s what Land Rover should have built instead of the Chelsea posing vehicle that they call the new Defender. I’ll stick with my original though.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Budster
I risk writing this like a oldgit

However, I worked for, the then, Land Rover Limited from 1979 to 1988.
My main role was as an overseas sales executive. (Asia and Pacific)
So I always view the product developments with great interest,

Land Rover lost much of their overseas market share during the 1980s with the rise of Toyota and Nissan.
The Japanese produced tough, reliable and inexpensive 4 x 4s, Land Rover didn’t!
Certainly the Series 3, then 90 and 110s were tough, but increasingly reliability was poor and prices became uncompetitive.

Their new range success relies, IMHO, too much on selling status.
They drift further and further away from Tom Barton’s original ideas and the new Defender reflects their new philosophy.

Now I’m definitely sounding like an oldgit but I know they could have taken a different path in he 1980s, had not the management of the company not been so obsessed with their own status.


I’m off for a sit down.
budster

Bud
4/4 - Stanley

You are not alone in that assessment Simon! thumbs
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 11:00 AM

If I understand it correctly, the Landrover later became an overpriced work coat that looks like for farm work, which is chic and hip in some circles. Circles that never want to get their hands dirty. It became a toy that was detached from its functional tasks, or the tasks correspond with a better life style like pulling horse trailers etc.
The cheap Japanese of the 80's were modest and willing to tread in the mud. Will the brand new Defender win back terrain in the field, in the desert or the serengeti? I don't believe it. It may be a good car, but it's simply not affordable for third-world tasks that made the Landrover so famous. What does this mean for the new Defender: its stories are fading, and with them the myth and appeal.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 01/07/20 11:30 AM

JLR threw the customer base away as the motor bike industry did before them to the Japanese.

The Subaru Brat pick up and Defender were the farmers choice down here on the hillside but now Mitsubishi have taken over with proficient and reliable wagons in 2 WD or 4 WD selectable models.

We have two of the new Chelsea Defenders on the school run down here already with built in bragging rights, they are ugly imho but they are what the punters want so JLR are right to build them.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 02/07/20 10:30 PM

Have to confess I've built a few new Defender 90s using the LR configurator... but would get an E- or PHEV- Niro (or Kona equivalent) if I was spending my own money today. Irrelevant factoid: you can get the PHEV Disco Sport for the same money as the Defender 110 (or is that better stated the other way round?)...
Posted By: SFO

Re: Defender - 02/07/20 10:56 PM

Love the new Defender. Saw one today 😍😍

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 07:56 AM

Its looks are what the last generation Discovery should have been...
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
the last generation Discovery


sick2
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 08:33 AM

Agreed Graham. I can't say I like the styling but it will sell no doubt.
Posted By: Image

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 09:01 AM

Sad misuse of a famous name!

That is an over-sized, over-complicated dull piece of an urban fashion victim's hoard of consumer 'product' .... a bland, predictable Kia look-alike.


This is a Defender, and always will be.


[Linked Image]


Not sure if I was clear enough ....but I don't much like it smile

K
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Image
Sad misuse of a famous name!

That is an over-sized, over-complicated dull piece of an urban fashion victim's hoard of consumer 'product' .... a bland, predictable Kia look-alike.


This is a Defender, and always will be.


[Linked Image]


Not sure if I was clear enough ....but I don't much like it smile

K


Totally agree.
cheers

Bud
4/4 - Stanley
Posted By: Clipper

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 10:06 AM

Don't like that spare wheel stuck there - who would put a wheel on the back of their car these days?
Posted By: Image

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Clipper
Don't like that spare wheel stuck there - who would put a wheel on the back of their car these days?



Umm! .... possibly a design Focus Group desperately trying to attach some of the previous model's charisma to their automotive 'white-goods' ..... like a skinny fashion student with arms like sticks of spaghetti and a nervous disposition wearing Doc Martens smile

K
Posted By: PeterG

Re: Defender - 03/07/20 10:41 AM

I like the 90 but with a few extras it works out around 55k or £800 p.m. on contract hire, too much, hopefully if residuals are stronger in the future prices may come down.

Not as iconic as its predecessor, maybe they should of looked at MMC and the Plus Four, it even still has the spare wheel on the rear grin2
Posted By: SFO

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 11:32 AM

You can get a base Defender 90 - still quite well equipped - for under £40k, and not pay road tax surcharge in years 2 to 5
Posted By: athelstan

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 01:42 PM

After considerable thought I decided on my 2015 Defender 90 2.2 Puma XS rather than the re-vamped Disco 5 "Pretender" which to me looks like the illegitimate progeny of a beached whale and a
Hippopotamus.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 01:56 PM

Good choice John
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by SFO
You can get a base Defender 90 - still quite well equipped - for under £40k, and not pay road tax surcharge in years 2 to 5


Not any more you can't - web site now says Defender 90 starts at £40,330 - bit they cannot build them.

Originally Posted by athelstan
After considerable thought I decided on my 2015 Defender 90 2.2 Puma XS rather than the re-vamped Disco 5 "Pretender" which to me looks like the illegitimate progeny of a beached whale and a
Hippopotamus.


That looks good. You will need a decent set of anti-theft devices though.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 04:00 PM

This is the best bit of security I have fitted to my Defender.
https://www.landroverdefendersecuri...ies/products/optimill-quick-release-boss

Along with this...

https://www.landroverdefendersecuri...vel-lock-for-quick-release-steering-boss

But if the low life really want to take your L/R there is no safe 100% deterant.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Image
Sad misuse of a famous name!
That is an over-sized, over-complicated dull piece of an urban fashion victim's hoard of consumer 'product' .... a bland, predictable Kia look-alike.
This is a Defender, and always will be.
[Linked Image]
Not sure if I was clear enough ....but I don't much like it smile
K

thumbs thumbs thumbs
No need to post a photo of mine! grin2
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by athelstan
...the re-vamped Disco 5 "Pretender" which to me looks like the illegitimate progeny of a beached whale and a Hippopotamus.

What a great description! laugh2

Posted By: Peter J

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by athelstan
.........which to me looks like the illegitimate progeny of a beached whale and a
Hippopotamus.]


that is a cruel slander of two noble animals...
But you are right.
Posted By: SFO

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Paul F
Originally Posted by SFO
You can get a base Defender 90 - still quite well equipped - for under £40k, and not pay road tax surcharge in years 2 to 5


Not any more you can't - web site now says Defender 90 starts at £40,330 - bit they cannot build them.


I should have been clearer.

For road tax purposes, you don’t include the 1st year road tax and first registration fee, which brings it below £40k.
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by SFO
Originally Posted by Paul F
Originally Posted by SFO
You can get a base Defender 90 - still quite well equipped - for under £40k, and not pay road tax surcharge in years 2 to 5


Not any more you can't - web site now says Defender 90 starts at £40,330 - bit they cannot build them.


I should have been clearer.

For road tax purposes, you don’t include the 1st year road tax and first registration fee, which brings it below £40k.


Thanks - hadn’t appreciated that the price on the LR web site included those elements.
Posted By: athelstan

Re: Defender - 04/07/20 09:23 PM

As far as security is concerned I have a steering wheel Stoplock and a heavy metal plate pedal and bonnet release cover fitted. I have thought about a removable steering wheel but other than during night time parking then the idea of carrying a steering wheel around with me whilst on a day out seems a bit of a no no.
Posted By: ewn

Re: Defender - 05/07/20 05:20 AM

I’m interested in a commercial version, Vat back and tax deductible puts them in a competitive position compared to the various pickup trucks, if they can do one from £30k to £40k plus vat, they’ll sell loads.

So far though, I’m not impressed by the sales side, I sent an enquiry on the landrover website, no response. I called the dealership a few weeks later recently, usual recorded menu rubbish about how important my call is, left a message...nothing.

I think for the commercial side, they’d be better off with an out of town shed type sales set up, glass showroom sales men hate customers like me, “ I’ll take the cheapest one you make with no options in whichever ever colour comes free, Chuck in the tow bar, here’s the cheque, I need it by Monday 7:30am”.

Sorry, guys , I actually like the look of the new one, I really liked the old one too and almost bought one, in 2011 I could buy the four door pickup for £17k plus vat brand new, it would probably still be worth that today! The main reason I didn’t buy it was the terrible turning circle, yet to find out if the new one is better but it could hardly be worse.
Posted By: PeterG

Re: Defender - 05/07/20 08:23 AM

• Coming soon: Full details of New Defender 90 and 110 Hard Top will be revealed later this year when it will be available to order. Indicative price from £35,500 (plus VAT) in the UK
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Defender - 05/07/20 09:09 AM

I initially bought initially bought into the idea of Land Rover as a vehicle most of which could be repaired with spanners which included body panel replacement. I created my own LR out of three, a rotted out LWB Safari a LWB diesel PU and a SWB. spent many years in and around LR`s.... My first Datsun 1 ton PU truck, just did it so much better and cheaper... just as my first Honda trumped my old Brit m/cycles design, performance and reliability...sigh!

I ever liked the dimensions and design of the base Range Rover with it`s V8 engine, though it was out of my price range, and my time spent with LR had educated me to the reality of LR product ownership. T`was not until more recent times when some real money had been spent at LR on design and manufacturing techniques that my faith in terms of their output increased enough for me to contemplate buying a new LR vehicle, even if it was very far of from my early LR desires, and came in the shape of a more refined machine to suit the desires of my good lady... Thus style played a part, perhaps along the lines of thinking had someone suggested back in the sixties that my old Barbour or Belstaff wax jacket would become a style icon for those influenced by the whims of fashionistas...!

The reality of a modern LR, all be it an Evoque..? As you might expect it is a modern machine and fortunately performs very much better than my early experience of the brand and has well exceeded my expectations of reliability and fuel economy despite all of the modern electronic trickery.... However it would seem that robotic assembly processes may have down sides in terms of restricting disassembly and repair by an old guy used to fixing things with a spanner and hammer...!!!

Case in point, My good lady while curtain material shopping placed a few yards of material wound round a long stiff cardboard tube, along the width of the rear seats and shut the rear door, the tube then broke the "cheap" plastic loudspeaker grill mounted in the rear door. I used the word cheap as it seems to be made from brittle plastic, but cheap to replace it is not..!!! . The cost of a chrome-like plastic speaker grill even one for a "Range Rover"..Hmm..? Well what do you think..circa £20 to £50..? Apparently the grill is not available as a an individual part from LR, it seems one has to buy the whole door trim panel which will not leave you with much if any change from £1000... Yeah that is a very long way from any of MY expectations of repair and maintenance of a machine, as opposed to one that may have evolved to become accepted by the fashionable as a style icon...?

What do you think...? Has Morgan evolved in a similar way.... I wonder..?
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 05/07/20 01:42 PM

Their range overlap is just comical now. Then you can add all the Jaguars coming out using the same bits and someone in the business planning dept needs to take the designers toys away and make them pay attention. Not a great way to drive towards increased profit in tight times.

If they had just skipped the Discovery (large not sport) and made this new Def___er the new Discovery I think people would have loved it. Giving it the name Defender seems OTT on heritage bashing that is so common now.
Posted By: Bumpy

Re: Defender - 14/07/20 09:30 AM

Being a avid Land Rover owner .. 1954 Series 1, 1972 Range Rover, 1990 Land Rover 90 and 2016 Range Rovrr Sport - I completely dismissed the new Defender and went back to basics and bought a Lada Niva for a laugh - however I have since driven a new Defender 110 and have to say am quite impressed ... the car drives very well and feels bigger than it looks. I do find the side ladder / roof rack and adventure box on the side a bit gimmicky... in North Africa everything would be pinched within an hour.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 14/07/20 10:53 AM

I thought all Lada Nivas would have rusted away by now?
Or is there a new generation in the same fashion as the Dacia Duster (didn't realise they were on the market again until they'd been available for more than 2 years!).
Posted By: JB62

Re: Defender - 14/07/20 02:10 PM

I’ve driven a Series 11a for about 20 years now- and love it’s simplicity. Our 2.4 Puma 110 whilst obviously more modern still carries out many roles involving mud, hair, etc etc - and does it better than any vehicle I know.

I can’t see me losing either in the foreseeable future other than the massive increase in thievery of Series/Defenders.

Never owned a modern LR product but my daughter has an Evoque which has been totally reliable and fun.
Posted By: taffy

Re: Defender - 14/07/20 03:02 PM

At the moment my month old Defender110s is more reliable than the 2013 model!!!
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 09:30 AM

Interesting article in Autocar about the LR Discovery going in for a nip and tuck as it is not selling well. No great surprise.

I don't think the issue is the styling as it is about as memorable as most of the other JLR/SUV going about their business. I just wonder why they think they need so many different models to do exactly the same thing.

When there was the Discovery and RR it made sense. When the RRSport arrived it just about made sense due to price but the RRS seemed to take the lions share of volume which I am confident they liked given the margins. But then they add the Road model the Velar intended for someone willing to admit they don't like to scuff their Prada's. Now they add the Defender which is more realistic to the older Discovery position than the old Defender position?

Given the cost constraints that the car industry is under and how much each line costs in launch, marketing, parts, production even with a common toolbox this seems stupid and I never had JLR down as stupid. Maybe a little smug about their premium brand position and pricing vs reliability but I did admire the cars when you drive them.

Perhaps the brave move would be park the title/car and let the others breath a little until things change?
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Alistair
I just wonder why they think they need so many different models to do exactly the same thing.


Precisely. One wonders if they have learned nothing from the history of BMC / British Leyland. Producing products that compete against each other in overlapping segments, especially in the current depressed market with rapidly changing public perceptions of SUVs, is just bonkers in my view.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 11:25 AM

I saw the first new Defender in traffic on Friday and I really liked it. I agree that Landrover has gotten extremely tangled up with the model variety. The Discovery is extremely ugly in my eyes. Actually, a number of Rangerovers, the Evoque models and the Defender are enough.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 11:37 AM

Don't forget the Jaguar cars are also spun off the same meccano kit albeit with a different driving experience. Well maybe not if you have a Velar, hmmmmm.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 11:45 AM

It's all Tat now isn't it - sorry TATA I could be wrong.

JLR is just a subsidiary holding company is my understanding, once Ford pulled the plug it went south literally.
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 12:08 PM

Confused model line up?
Right, from the top!

Range Rover Velar
Range Rover
Range Rover Sport
Range Rover Evoque

Discovery

Defender SWB
Defender LWB

Have I missed any? (You can add the Jaguar F Pace, E Pace etc)

When I left Land Rover Limited at the end of the 80s, it was

Range Rover 2 & 4 door
Land Rover 90, 110 + Special Vehicles
(They were developing the Discovery and P38)

I will restrain myself from commenting on the senior LRL management of that era!

Bud
4/4 - Stanley
Posted By: Image

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 12:16 PM

I was told the thinking about different brands/models is that a new model will attract 'X' number of buyers .... those you 'lose' from your other models aren't really a loss to you .... those you attract from other manufacturers are a nett gain ..... provided the new business offsets the costs then you're onto a winner .

It explains why there's so many types of washing powder made by the same people (which is the market the trick was first thought up for) and why big manufacturers of cars spawn 'spin off' brands.

With washing powders it was down to how could you compete in a market where all the products did the job .... in the case of cars historically there were ones which were demonstrably faster, more luxurious and more long-lived ... and ones that could hardly drag themselves along and fell apart .....now cars are in the same place as washing powder, in that they all do the job of getting from A to B just fine, are mostly reliable and don't rust into seives after three years ....so out comes the model proliferation ploy.


K
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 12:46 PM

Yes fair enough but given the cost of producing a car then passing all the legislative tests, spares, build, parts, marketing etc etc etc It is not like you put in a different smell and change the box name is it?

If they had different use profiles I could give it a pass. But.

same engines. Literally 2L IL4T plus a couple of V/IL6
same seating in nearly all cases, 4/5 seats no third row?
same shocking options prices on an already expensive car
same range of paint colours(all cost extra)

I must admit to overlooking the DiscoSport and EVogue in this somewhat critical observation. I get the difference there - . The iPace is also a smart move but I have hardly seen any on the road which is annoying as it seems like it should be more visible given the money being spent on other LR's in the same price bracket?

It feels like the money is going into style where the PHEV and reliability needed greater priority in funding?

I should also say that if this sounds like criticism it is only as I have a great admiration for the brand and no matter the ownership it still represents GB and puts food on British plates. I fear they had slipped backwards and the market is not going to be friendly in the next couple of years.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 01:55 PM

You should try TATA instant coffee. I used to bring it back from India for my LR owning colleagues.
They are a massive business. Cars is a part only but they can't make instant coffee.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 01:59 PM

Not enough steel in it for them to be good at it John, mind I don't suppose there is a lot in the new footballers products either.

They are a huge conglomerate, JLR is the petty cash account I guess.

At least they have kept some British jobs here and not shipped production over to India yet...
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 08:30 PM

Surely JLR look like amateurs at maximising the number of model variants from a platform compared with the Volkswagen Group, using Volkswagen, Audi, Seat and Skoda brands all producing ostensibly the same car. Seems to work ok for them ??
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Defender - 19/07/20 09:43 PM

I think the difference with VAG is that each brand has a different demographic, whereas with Jaguar and LandRover, the target audiences generally have more in common.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 20/07/20 12:23 PM

Its a fair point. I have often wondered how VW got away with such a mad diversity however the product set they offer seems more linear to me. They also have the luxury of volume so the spot-a-niche-and-fill-it is justifiable for the overheads compared to the costs? The SUV's within one range come in differing sizes, seat counts and market segments.

Perhaps the Jag to LR difference is slightly more clear with the focus on handling vs that lazy and enjoyable LR rumble down the road. My point with JLR is that the Velar, RRS, Defender and Disco cost the production of four cars in overhead terms only straddle a single market segment.
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 20/07/20 08:38 PM

Land Rover only has 2 BIW platforms at present operating from 3 factories.

D7 platform covering Discovery, Range Rover, Range Rover Sport, Defender and Velar - The D7 platform will get replaced by the MLA (Modulart Longitudinal Architecture) platform starting with the new Range Rover and Jaguar XJ

PTA (Premium Transverse Architecture) platform covering Discovery Sport 2 and Evoque

I am no fan of the huge amount of product proliferation from all the manufacturers but I don't think JLR (or other volume manufacturers) are doing anything which deliberately creates excess overhead structure. If anything they are minimising the enormous development costs and manufacturing overhead structure by limiting the number of BIW structures whilst delivering the maximum product variation through outer skin and trim changes. This is in distinct contrast to the old BMC days where they would have multiple BIW platforms sometimes assembling the same platforms from multiple factories.
Posted By: Marmota

Re: Defender - 21/07/20 02:50 PM

IMHO since Ford sold the JLR to Tata in 2008, the cars have improved and a lot. Some may say I'm wrong, but sincerely, the products released under the Tata umbrella were (and IMHO still are) a reference in the sector.

In 2010 I was lucky to acquire a Jaguar XJ with the fantastic aluminum monocoque structure. And the Biturbo V6 diesel with 275hp and 600Nm torque.
I tried many other big sedans such as the S class, A8, Series 7, Lexus LS and Panamera. Sorry if I offend someone here, but at this time (2010) this XJ was much lighter, spacious and fast than any of the competition with a similar diesel engine. Even faster than the iconic Panamera (that “just” offered the 250hp VAG group diesel engine). There was no other V6 diesel engine with such performance then.

And this XJ had a real large touch screen that no other car in the market offered. And the virtual (TFT screen) driver’s display that only the S class, as an incredibly expensive option, offered combined with the night vision system.
Light years away in performance and technology IMHO with the plus of the British elegance. So, the choice was easy then.

Since then, these technologies are shared with all the new range of JLR cars, and they have new Ingenium engines of their own. New in-line 6 cylinders coming out of the oven just these days.

Now I have a F-Pace with its biturbo V6 diesel engine, with 300hp and 700Nm torque this time, which is still a reference. But the competition is getting closer and maybe in some points recently surpassed the Jag. But it’s a four years “old” model now, and it will soon have a face-lift.

Also, I travel a lot and hire an average of 30 cars per year. And still the infotainment system of the JLR is the best IMHO. I hate the “paleolithic menu wheels” (no offense) that most of the competition offer. It’s like having a brand-new iPhone or Samsung and suddenly come back to the old Blackberry with its small screen and tiny keyboard. I know this is changing as the competition is including touchscreens (mostly as an option, not a standard), but here JLR was (and IMHO opinion still is) the reference.

All the above speech to say that I love the JLR products, and next year I’ll change my F-Pace for… we’ll see what JLR has to offer then! Maybe the competition offers something more interesting in a year from now?
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