Talk Morgan

Defender

Posted By: Alistair

Defender - 30/04/19 05:53 PM

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/the-toughest-most-capable-land-rover-ever/40093

I am surprised there has not been more comment knowing we have some long term Defender lovers on the board.

(I'll just leave this here and hide.)
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 06:21 PM

A sad but logical day. It is easy to sack UK folk & producing abroad is cheaper.
Posted By: taffy

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 06:56 PM

A member of my family works for JLR and basically its a Disco 5!
Posted By: Culminator

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 07:26 PM

It certainly looks Like a Discovery 5!
Posted By: taffy

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 07:30 PM

It has the disco chassis and most of the running gear!
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:07 PM

I just don't get the range overlap, even more when the Jaguar'd versions are included.
Posted By: howard

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:09 PM

I agree. The JLR product line is a bit of a mess.
Posted By: MDS61

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By howard
I agree. The JLR product line is a bit of a mess.


Vehicle quality is also woeful confused2
Posted By: ewn

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 08:43 PM

I’ll buy one of those when my VW blows up, but I don’t want any luxury stuff, just towing capacity like the old one and hopefully a lot more room for the driver and a decent turning circle. I’d prefer rubber flooring, tough cloth seats, in marketeering world, this will probably be an extra cost downgrade. laugh2
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 10:27 PM

To be honest, this car looks like there was very little effort to emotionally connect to Defender. But let's see what it looks like without camouflage and if it can set a "functional" accent...just like the Defender over all the decades. The emotional secret of the Defender was its roughness and its long history.

Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 30/04/19 11:13 PM

Yes it's the rugged look that appeals to me and most of the owners that I know locally. That and the fact you can hose the inside out grin2.
This new rendition looks like yet another that will appeal to the hipster city boys.
We'll see when the wraps come off.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 05:50 AM

A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.
Posted By: Northernmorgan

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 06:31 AM

It will be too expensive for the people who need such a vehicle for its proper use and what’s more it won’t be built in this country. So an icon has gone and will not be replaced...well, in my view.
At least it won’t be a long lived vehicle.....in 30 years time it’ll be in the crusher unless it can be electrified.🙄
Posted By: Obie

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By MDS61
Originally Posted By howard
I agree. The JLR product line is a bit of a mess.


Vehicle quality is also woeful confused2


Agree with both of you, too many variations of a similar theme.
As for reliability, I had to reject my Discovery Sport using the consumer Rights act due to a major manufacturing fault with the construction of the B pillar. The cure was removing the interior trim, drilling, bending and welding the pillar, not good on a new vehicle.
Shame as a reason for buying was supporting British jobs.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:28 AM

Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:40 AM

Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.


I wonder what vehicle the British Military will now purchase for general work?

Certainly, the local farmers down here, gave up on Defenders a long time ago. The majority now use crew-cab pick-ups from Nissan, Toyota or Mitsubishi.
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:15 AM

Quote:
I wonder what vehicle the British Military will now purchase for general work?


The MoD has a "white fleet" of leased cars vans and trucks for general purpose (non combat) movement of people and goods. A Land Rover Defender does not really fit as an efficient mover of goods or people as a van / cheaper saloon car will be always be more efficient.

For combat based activities the Oshkosh JLTV is most likely to become the standard product which replaces the role that the Defender would have historically been used for. This is a completely different size of platform to the Defender to provide the necessary blast and ballistic mitigation which is now required.

A Defender type platform would appear to have no role in the future of UK military operations which has probably influenced the direction that Land Rover has taken with the Defender.
Posted By: TimG

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:16 AM

Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone. Perhaps Jim Ratcliffs Ineos will produce the real succesor.
Posted By: Rovert

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone. Perhaps Jim Ratcliffs Ineos will produce the real succesor.


I am somewhat embarrassed to say that my TDCI (Puma) has central locking, electric windows, air con, carpets and sound proofing (though I added that).
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .


This isn't a personal go at you, but to make the analogy relevant, is it any more daft than having a 4.8l engine in a country where you can't legally drive in excess of 70mph on the public road? hide

The right to own a car whose capability exceeds its intended or probable use is called freedom (or vanity, depending on your viewpoint). Long may it continue. thumbs
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 09:21 AM

I own a Chelsea Tractor, full fat whats worse is I don't even live in Chelsea never mind take it off road. Although our local free car park can get a bit muddy. I say this from the position of someone you probably make your comment towards, not an issue. I don't NEED a 4WD or big high thing.

We have a Morgan and a Mini. Neither have any carrying capacity. We are lucky/hard working enough to have the privilege of another car which has a decent boot for real day jobs. It used to be a decent estate, MB E series but we decided to try an SUV at the last round to see what all the fuss was about. It feels like half our road has converted to SUV ownership of various sizes over the last 20 years. So an MB ML class lorry arrived about 2 years ago.

Pro's
The high position does give a more relaxing driving situation as your view is further. This means more reaction time and less stress. This leads to a more relaxed person during the drive (sadly as mentioned before this also means the poor sod behind you is just looking at a black expanse, yes it's black) The better view also makes SWMBO happier as she is not looking at cars. With the seats, air suspension and smothering mass the ride is very good and you could drive for 10 hours and feel fine at the end.

Con's
SWMBO senior has trouble getting in and out even with the Chelsea step on the side. She does like the view once in. The boot is not really larger than the E estate but perhaps a bit taller for square objects. The sheer weight is very obvious, I am getting through brake pads and shortly discs. You don't want to push through a corner to carry momentum. Even with air suspension and "sport" mode you can feel it is not natural to push on. The estate was miles ahead in this respect. Stopping distances need that extra vision. The E had the same engine as the ML (and despite my driving style relaxing considerably) the MPG is a good 10-20% worse.

I think the replacement for this is going to be a difficult one. I would like to go back to an estate but SWMBO will take some convincing to lose the nice view and relaxing driving gait it creates.

Different but not an improvement would be my observation.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 09:22 AM

Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone.

Exactly...
Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase.

Not all are limited to supermarket car parks as "off-road" territory Steve. Stuart also has a point smile
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:02 PM

One effect I have noticed in France which seems to have resulted from the proliferation of SUV's has been an increase in aggressive driving, most noticeably from those behind the wheel of such vehicles.

I don't have any facts to back this up, so it is an entirely anecdotal observation, but I guess that the sense of safety and security that comes from the chunky styling and elevated driving position may contribute.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By MJF


For combat based activities the Oshkosh JLTV is most likely to become the standard product which replaces the role that the Defender would have historically been used for.


Crikey. Oshkosh seem to have moved on from the expensive baby and toddler clothes market
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:09 PM

As far as the new Defender is concerned, I share the disappointment already expressed, but maybe JLR have decided that it's impossible to make money trying to take on the likes of the Toyota Hilux in the rugged dependable workhorse market which was the fiefdom of the original Land Rover.
Posted By: SFG

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 02:23 PM

Too soon to know?
Posted By: JB62

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 03:20 PM



Even better than a Defender
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 05:27 PM

Well if it's good enough for Daniel Craig in the new Bond movie grin2
Posted By: taffy

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:10 PM

They (JLR) were making very little on the Defender as it was never designed for robotic manufacture. It failed on Safety aspects (no airbags,etc) as well as the front had no crumple zone,etc. Actually it sounds like a morgan!
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone.

Exactly...
Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase.

Not all are limited to supermarket car parks as "off-road" territory Steve. Stuart also has a point smile



Most are going up and down the motorway or picking up kids , how much wear does the low range cog get , none ! As far as 4.8 litre cars are concerned thats not big these days , nor is 380 bhp .
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:19 PM

I can see the benefits of using shared components, no issue with that. I just hope it is a hose down, rubber and neoprene, rugged, workhorse inside so it does stick to the stereotype.
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:49 PM

I don't really understand the anti 4x4 feelings on here.

I have owned two Defenders and 3 Range Rovers and the Defenders were brilliant for knocking about country lanes in Pembrokeshire where the height meant I could see over hedges and was used to tow a boat and launch off beaches. I never needed to use low ratio, but the ground clearance and 4 wheel drive were useful as was the fact that you could get into the car wet and dirty and not worry.

As I have said before on here my Range Rovers have been the most reliable cars I have ever owned and are brilliant for doing 600-800 miles in a day in complete comfort, with lots of gear / dog onboard. We spend a lot of time in Austria and I have never got stuck in the snow where the ground clearance and 4x4 is vital - but have not yet needed low ratio.

Isn't this just about horses for courses - they are a tool for a job and do it well - as does a Morgan to provide fun. I just wouldn't try and drive 800 miles in a day in the snow with kids, dog and suitcases in a Morgan, much as I wouldn't try and drive for fun in a Defender or Range Rover.
Posted By: Northernmorgan

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .


About as daft as buying a high powered sports car that will never see a race track 🙄
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By Alistair
I can see the benefits of using shared components, no issue with that. I just hope it is a hose down, rubber and neoprene, rugged, workhorse inside so it does stick to the stereotype.


That's a good wishlist.

Mine would be:

<1860mm in overall width
Wheels allow 60+ tyre profile
Front wing edges visible to driver

If it's based very closely on a Disco chassis then it's not looking too hopeful on a couple of those.

Shame, as rumoured auto option and petrol engines would be welcome. (My '12 G Wag changed my mind on autos for off-roading. They can be set up to be far more usable than a manual). Unitary body wouldn't bother me, but air-springs would be a no-no.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
Originally Posted By TimG
Originally Posted By Fuel.inj
A Defender in name only............This will be another Chelsea tractor.

Yes I will be disappointed if this is the released product. Seems to miss the point of uncomplicated rugged vehicle, a Discovery/Range Rove clone.

Exactly...
Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase.

Not all are limited to supermarket car parks as "off-road" territory Steve. Stuart also has a point smile



Graham , I fully understand having a 4wd for those in country areas but central London and motorway use only seems at odds with 2 tonne 4wd and size .
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:18 PM

Yes Steve, but you didn't say that originally! smile
Mine, when I drive it, could be out for various reasons, not often driven long motorway distances though Sue and I have done long trips in them - plenty of luggage/dog space.
Mainly it gets used to provide safety radio cover for various events where I will very likely not be on tarmac (apart from getting to a venue). I have also retrieved many inadequately equipped motorists from ditches &c. particularly during the cooler parts of the year (I'm sure Tim has done the same). Sometimes it is just so I can continue a journey along a road blocked by some numpty who has no idea how to drive when conditions become less than ideal.
As for central London, I'll leave that to Reg! grin2
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By Graham, G4FUJ
Yes Steve, but you didn't say that originally! smile
Mine, when I drive it, could be out for various reasons, not often driven long motorway distances though Sue and I have done long trips in them - plenty of luggage/dog space.
Mainly it gets used to provide safety radio cover for various events where I will very likely not be on tarmac (apart from getting to a venue). I have also retrieved many inadequately equipped motorists from ditches &c. particularly during the cooler parts of the year (I'm sure Tim has done the same). Sometimes it is just so I can continue a journey along a road blocked by some numpty who has no idea how to drive when conditions become less than ideal.
As for central London, I'll leave that to Reg! grin2



'Off road ' !
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 01/05/19 08:33 PM

Yes, all kinds of non metalled areas...
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 04:27 PM

Just hoping it will tow 3.5T and cost a lot less than the current Discovery.
Posted By: Burgundymog

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 04:34 PM

I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive


It doesn't say much about the inbuilt security if they are that easy to steal... or is it the keyless entry "amplification" routine being used?

Mercedes has introduced a new layer of security. Lay your key fob down on a shelf or table and after 30 seconds it turns its self off, until picked up. Logical and simple.
Posted By: Alan Patterson

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive

Thanks for the heads-up Keith. My son has just bought a Range Rover Sport, so I'll let him know he needs to invest in a decent Tracker as things tend to go walkabout round where he lives. A while ago someone relieved him of his exhaust while the car was on his drive.
Posted By: Shooter

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 06:16 PM

I saw the new Defender today by the Roadside outside Cirencester in it zebra squirly print glory. No time to stop to take a picture.

Not sure if it had broken down :-)
Posted By: BobtheTrain

Re: Defender - 02/05/19 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive

Can't the scum now detect them with an electronic gizmo? So I have heard from my neighbour who told this by the police when his van was stolen.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 05:31 AM

I’ve got one of the last TD5 Defender County (2007). I’ve always been paranoid about the the theft issue of these vehicles. One of the best security mods is fitting a Optimil QR steering wheel. At least it will slow the low life down if they do attempt to take it.
Posted By: N22MOG

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 07:10 AM

Originally Posted By madmax
Why do people buy such cars when they never go off the road ? Daft purchase .


I have a Mercedes GLS as my daily driver, had it for nearly two years and think it was anything but a daft purchase.
It has seven seats when needed (we have a big family - 13 grandchildren!), huge load carrying capacity ( I’ve moved a sofa, a double bed and more garden centre purchases than I care to admit too), it’ll transport 5 adults plus their full size suitcases, it’s a real workhorse. It’s also the most comfortable motorway cruiser I’ve ever had, you can get out at the end of a whole day of driving and feel like you’ve only been in it for a short while. It “only” has a 3 litre Diesel engine but it was built by AMG so has plenty of pick up. It replaced my previous E class saloon which was quite comfortable but absolutely hopeless if it snowed, the GLS is permanent 4WD.
I don’t see that any of these benefits could be considered as daft and I’m surprised at how much anti-SUV feeling there is. Take a look in any public car park (around where I live in Kent at least) and a large percentage of the cars are SUVs so we can’t all be wrong can we? In fact public car parking is probably the only down side as it it a big car. I doubt I’d have bought it if I still lived in London.
I’m know there are people that don’t “get” Morgans who think that my Plus 8 is daft - no boot, no power steering, no radio, no suspension (😉), not easy to get into, very low, need to grease the suspension etc. It’s just horses for courses. If we all bought vehicles based on logic and being sensible we'd all be driving around in identical boxes on wheels.
Posted By: Northernmorgan

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 07:25 AM

Well said Steve! I get tired of the derogatory remarks on here at times regarding SUVs.
Mines probably the most comfortable car I’ve ever had and hugely practical. I’ll never take it off road apart from fields and the odd forest track but it suits me and what I want from a vehicle.
Each to their own....certain people like extremely noisy exhausts and find it amusing to wake the neighbours and set off car alarms. Enough said!
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By Northernmorgan
Well said Steve! I get tired of the derogatory remarks on here at times regarding SUVs.
Mines probably the most comfortable car I’ve ever had and hugely practical. I’ll never take it off road apart from fields and the odd forest track but it suits me and what I want from a vehicle.
Each to their own....certain people like extremely noisy exhausts and find it amusing to wake the neighbours and set off car alarms. Enough said!


SUV = practical car , Morgan = non practical car , suppose we need both !
Posted By: TimG

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive


In defence of JLR recent tests by ADAC found that 2018 Discoverys & Range Rovers & 2019 Evoque & Jag XE were not vulnerable to relay attack. Yes you can fit a tracker but far preferable not to get stolen at all so use a mechanical steering lock & keep the key in Faraday shielded pouch. Never understood the logic of making your car more vulnerable to theft for a "convienience" feature. I never found it hard to get a key out of my pocket, insert it in a lock & turn to start the car.
MJF you have been fortunate to have reliable Range Rovers. JLR have languished at the bottom of reliability surveys for years. Certainly all cars are getting more reliable but even Toyotas do break down. The most reliable car is a Suzuki Swift.
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 03/05/19 01:19 PM

Quote:
MJF you have been fortunate to have reliable Range Rovers.


I recognise that my experience does fly in the face of published statistics, but it is hard not to be influenced by your own overwhelmingly positive experience.

The telling call will come next year when the current one is due to be replaced - do I go for my 4th one or do something different ? The key issue I have at the moment is the lack of modern engines in the Range Rover when compared with the other European manufacturers rather than any other concerns.

Your post did make me look again at some reliability surveys which has prompted me to conclude that I don't like any of the cars in the upper sections of the survey anyway, so it looks like whatever I do, I will be consigned to be at the riskier end of things.
Posted By: TimG

Re: Defender - 04/05/19 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By MJF

The telling call will come next year when the current one is due to be replaced - do I go for my 4th one or do something different ?

If your current one is still running reliably & still does what you need keep it. Perhaps it falls foul of the new London emissions zone. Change for change sake alone & you could be buying trouble.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 04/05/19 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By taffy
A member of my family works for JLR and basically its a Disco 5!

Interesting - thought that when I saw the spy shots.

Meanwhile Defender owners can look at the pickup trucks / Hiluxes of the world, or maybe the Ineos guy's https://projektgrenadier.com/
Posted By: ewn

Re: Defender - 05/05/19 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By PaulV
Originally Posted By taffy
A member of my family works for JLR and basically its a Disco 5!

Interesting - thought that when I saw the spy shots.

Meanwhile Defender owners can look at the pickup trucks / Hiluxes of the world, or maybe the Ineos guy's https://projektgrenadier.com/


What is it that Ineos is offering? Is it a essentially a new-old Defender? I took a quick look at the website and lost interest, too much blurb and when I read the words, “conceived in a Knightsbridge pub”, I gave up. surrender
Posted By: Burgundymog

Re: Defender - 05/05/19 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By Peter J
Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive


It doesn't say much about the inbuilt security if they are that easy to steal... or is it the keyless entry "amplification" routine being used?

Mercedes has introduced a new layer of security. Lay your key fob down on a shelf or table and after 30 seconds it turns its self off, until picked up. Logical and simple.


Peter they either boost the key signal on keyless entry. Failing that smash a rearseat window to gain entry then use the OBD port to reprogram a key.
Posted By: Burgundymog

Re: Defender - 05/05/19 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By Alan Patterson
Originally Posted By Burgundymog
I would not buy a Range Rover or Discovery they are probably the most stolen vehicle at the moment, I have recovered 5 yes 5 in the last two days. If you must have one be sure and fit a proper Tracker, that's the ones I get back. Usually next day or the day after drive

Thanks for the heads-up Keith. My son has just bought a Range Rover Sport, so I'll let him know he needs to invest in a decent Tracker as things tend to go walkabout round where he lives. A while ago someone relieved him of his exhaust while the car was on his drive.


Also a Disklock Thatcham cat 3 on steering wheel, about £130 but well worth it.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 09:18 PM

First viewing of the Defender from the new Bond Movie!

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/new-defender-snapped-before-frankfurt--update/40426
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 09:23 PM

Wow! She looks exactly the way I imagined. And that's very very sad.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 09:30 PM

Yes not worth the wait really, we saw it in dazzle livery at FOS and the shape was dull and unimaginative to say the least.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 27/08/19 10:06 PM

As expected, rather Discovery'ish.
yawn
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 11:53 AM

I won't be selling my 2015 '90' to buy a Discovery with a 'Defender' badge on it!...

There 'was'... an opportunity to do something special here... if Mercedes can keep the 'G-Wagon' true, no idea why JLR crumbled to 'corporate image'...

Such a sad 'evolution' of a 70 year old icon... don't understand why they even bothered.

I forecast it will be a sales 'flop'...
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 12:11 PM



Originally Posted by pete757
I won't be selling my 2015 '90' to buy a Discovery with a 'Defender' badge on it!...

There 'was'... an opportunity to do something special here... if Mercedes can keep the 'G-Wagon' true, no idea why JLR crumbled to 'corporate image'...

Such a sad 'evolution' of a 70 year old icon... don't understand why they even bothered.

I forecast it will be a sales 'flop'...


There are already noticeably fewer Defenders here in Devon.
Most of the farmers already use L200s, or Hilux crewcabs.
Also at a recent local horse trials Defenders now seem to be in the minority.

Really sad and especially as I worked for Land Rover Ltd from 1979 for 10 years. This meant I saw the development and introduction of the 90 & 110.
Posted By: Rovert

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by pete757
I won't be selling my 2015 '90' to buy a Discovery with a 'Defender' badge on it!...

There 'was'... an opportunity to do something special here... if Mercedes can keep the 'G-Wagon' true, no idea why JLR crumbled to 'corporate image'...
'...


Agree, just look at how well Suzuki have done with the new Jimny, they cannot make enough of them.
Posted By: Jens

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 02:09 PM

I agree too, this boring Discofender is a lost chance.

Posted By: DavidR

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 04:04 PM

It does seem a strange decision given the popularity of the product as it was. Add to this the number of suppliers of re-engineered vehicles, who seemingly can't keep up with demand even at their high prices.

I've run two Defenders 110s in the past, a 300 TDI (the best IMO) and a TD5. I have off roaded with both, but must admit you do eventually get fed up with banging your head on the roof even when strapped in! They do give you a wonderful feeling that you could drive anywhere over almost any terrain - even the rough old Kings Road drive

JLR say that the Defender design did not fit in with todays manufacturing, so I wonder what did MB do with the G Wagon, is that still made as per the original or was the design modernised?

My personal view is that it is wrong to classify the Defender as a just another chelsea tractor, it is more workhorse. So for heavens sake why do JLR make all of their product range to be Range Rover clones. It would have been much better suited to being big, boxy and utilitarian with plastic bits and pieces that are hard to damage and easy to replace.

Obviously the bean counters have won (apologies to any accountants reading this!) and they've found a use for all those old Disco bits they had stored out the back.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 05:50 PM

In the main, because the largest part of the market is for "soft" roaders.

I will keep the 90 until I'm no longer allowed to drive...
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
In the main, because the largest part of the market is for "soft" roaders.

I will keep the 90 until I'm no longer allowed to drive...


Ahhh! That explains it!!! Aside from the length of the 'wheelbase', I now realise that I can drive my 'old' Defender until I am '90'... or even '110'!
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:06 PM

But probably not '130'!!
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:15 PM

You could always aim for the pre-Defender 127 grin2
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 28/08/19 06:43 PM

JLR turn out the same clone range of vehicles which are so bland. I’ve had my 2007 Defender TD5 for a number of years now and the amount of compliments I get from various people amazes me.
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 02:14 PM

Indeed!...

.... 'WOW.. that Landrover is so well restored, how old is it?"...

Well, actually, it was riveted together in 2015!
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
JLR turn out the same clone range of vehicles which are so bland. I’ve had my 2007 Defender TD5 for a number of years now and the amount of compliments I get from various people amazes me.


The Td5 Defender is a magnificent beast, many reckon they are the best of the bunch - much smoother, more economical and more powerful than their predecessors but not with unmanageably complex electronics, the aftermarket Nanocom box is all you need. They are also proving to be far more reliable than originally expected. The LR Storm project engineers did a great job with the engine design.

I love our 2002 model, we've had it since it was 6 months old and I wouldn't swap it for the world.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 04:18 PM

I'd buy one of these if the Lottery win comes in...

https://youtu.be/WhDuEmGBfvs

I think it would be the logical move for Alistair, far better than the ML, or whatever it is.
Posted By: Rovert

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
JLR turn out the same clone range of vehicles which are so bland. I’ve had my 2007 Defender TD5 for a number of years now and the amount of compliments I get from various people amazes me.


The Td5 Defender is a magnificent beast, many reckon they are the best of the bunch - much smoother, more economical and more powerful than their predecessors but not with unmanageably complex electronics, the aftermarket Nanocom box is all you need. They are also proving to be far more reliable than originally expected. The LR Storm project engineers did a great job with the engine design.

I love our 2002 model, we've had it since it was 6 months old and I wouldn't swap it for the world.


Before the Puma I had a TD5, Whilst I enjoy the 6 speed box and effective Air-Con/heating, I prefer the TD5. It just sounds so right in a Land Rover. (Cue the 200/300 TDI aficionados)
/
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 29/08/19 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
I'd buy one of these if the Lottery win comes in...
https://youtu.be/WhDuEmGBfvs
I think it would be the logical move for Alistair, far better than the ML, or whatever it is.


The best news is that the arrival of a new one that does not try and kill you every time you hit the loud pedal is that the older model has taken a dip in price. The old one still does not go around corners, stop or handle in any way but at least it does not cost as disgustingly much as it did before. Yet for some reason I love it. Must be the sidepipes. I love the new one's interior, handling, blatantly stupid price etc etc. My tight roots mean that I will never buy one. Well maybe when they are eight years old and slightly run in, as I pull the Audi A3's and BMW 1's out of the grill.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:23 AM

Well it's D Day.

Launched at Frankfurt, seems an odd choice...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/land-rover-defender--frankfurt-2019/40919
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Alistair
Well it's D Day.

Launched at Frankfurt, seems an odd choice...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/land-rover-defender--frankfurt-2019/40919



Well, Britain no longer has a proper Motor Show (that silly thing in May at the Excel Arena doesn't count). So I guess they looked at Slovakia or India (which would have some relevance) and chose Frankfurt!

Ps. I like it - especially as it seems that the ridiculous blanking panel ( 'signature' ) between the B pillar and C pillar is mandatory only on the 110 and is optional on the 90. The launch X spec seems a bit attention seeking, but useful to know there are 18" steel wheels available. I'll have to wait for mine as the P400e doesn't arrive until 2021. Hopefully will be possible to spec combination of 90, no blanking panel, no front bench, air sus or side steps - whatever costs less, p400e hybrid engine and steel wheels - and paint in a flat grey or green that matches the white steel wheels.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 02:38 PM

Just another Chelsea tractor that will be taking up two slots in the supermarket car Park!
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 03:33 PM


Yes we need these like we need plastic bottled water, they have both timed out IMHO.. Had it have been a farmer friendly vehicle that would be a whole new welcome ballgame, these will litter Waitrose car parks.
We saw it at FOS and it was fugly.
Posted By: twotribes

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
Just another Chelsea tractor that will be taking up two slots in the supermarket car Park!


Possibly, but it won't be the fault of the car.

Width (including mirrors):

New Defender 1999mm
VW Golf MkVII 2027mm

Thankfully, the new Defender is only marginally wider than the old one, which was a very narrow vehicle. Anyone who has owned a LR Series car or Defender (you included, I believe) knows that a large part of their on-road usability comes from the fact they get through gaps other cars can't.
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by twotribes
Originally Posted by Fuel.inj
Just another Chelsea tractor that will be taking up two slots in the supermarket car Park!


Possibly, but it won't be the fault of the car.

Width (including mirrors):

New Defender 1999mm
VW Golf MkVII 2027mm

Thankfully, the new Defender is only marginally wider than the old one, which was a very narrow vehicle. Anyone who has owned a LR Series car or Defender (you included, I believe) knows that a large part of their on-road usability comes from the fact they get through gaps other cars can't.


You are probably correct Stuart, but not sounding to be sexist, the number of females I see driving v large SUV’s in car parks leaves a lot to be desired as to their driving skills.
Posted By: pete757

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 06:14 PM

Another Discovery.

Hideous. Wilks would not even roll In his grave...

As for the price! Nuts! The 'old' Defender started at 24k... they have got this big time wrong.

I hope it succeeds.... there has been huge $$ invested in this project... and JLR are not in the best position right now...
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:04 PM

YUK!!!
Posted By: M3W55

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:20 PM

At that price, I don't think we will be seeing any real farmers or keepers at the wheel.
Posted By: MDS61

Re: Defender - 10/09/19 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
YUK!!!

+1
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 06:14 AM

The configurator is up for the 110. I like that you can get white roof, steel wheels etc but “my” spec (S, base diesel, 18” smoked alloys, 3+3 seating, hitch) still made it £53K...

I suspect NewDefender will eat into Discovery and Velar sales, rather than expand LR in the market. Heck, they now sell 2 Jag 4x4s + 6 LR/RR 4x4s! And none of the in the 20-30£K market sweet spot, or electrified (Kia NiroE being what I would get next if I needed a new “car”...).

Interesting that LR is totally opposite of a Morgan in some ways (Tonka toy vs retro mobile), similar in others (eg UK vendor with quality reputation challenges, engine CO2 etc compliance with legacy products, investment in alu chassis, trying to replace a much loved fossil... oops I may get banned from TM now!)
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 07:56 AM

I had hoped that a base spec 110 would be under £50k and therefore could be a viable successor as a 1-2 year old car to our 7 year old Discovery in a few years time. There really is not a lot of choice if you actually need the 3.5T towing capability.
Back to the drawing board.
Posted By: PaulJ

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 09:09 AM

Obviously design is a personal thing, but to my eyes it looks good, but £50k! Yes it will sell and no doubt make good margins for JLR and their dealers, but I really hope they can get their unreliability sorted out. This has put me off even going for a test drive in one of their cars.

With regard to price, what can the agricultural market get these days? It all seems to have swung down to pickup trucks and I'm not sure that farmers would move away to a Defender like product for £30k although I'm certain that JLR would have looked at that market and made a car for it if there was the profit there, but I'm sure there isn't.

As a matter of interest, 2 - 3 of my local farmers just rely on their little quarter ton vans, like the Daihatsu jet something or the old Honda Acty vans. They are old and rough as hell, but seem to go on year after year and do the job admirably. Obviously very little real off road capability, but that doesn't seem to matter too much, the guys just hop on their quad bikes for that, so the market for reasonably priced utilitarian products has changed and I think Land Rover have accepted that.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 12:29 PM

Isuzu, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Ford Rangers most of these with double cabs have taken over the Defender market down here although several of the farms local to me have kept their Defenders.
All these companies were represented at the local Kingsbridge Agricultural Show last Saturday, Land Rover were not to be seen.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 11/09/19 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by M3W55
At that price, I don't think we will be seeing any real farmers or keepers at the wheel.


Probably why JLR haven't bothered trying to address this market. To be fair, Toyota & co seem to have this sector pretty well stitched up.

FWIW, I think the 2 door version of the new defender looks quite good. For sure, it's a very different animal to the original, but then if they've run up the white flag on the utilitarian workhorse market, then it's not being pitched at the same buyers.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 16/09/19 12:01 PM

The review of the new Defender in Top Gear magazine is very positive.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Defender - 16/09/19 06:11 PM

When I read the article in topgear I have to admit that they thought a lot of things about the development of the car.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 12:50 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49725825

Looks like a better Defender is going to be built soon at Bridgend !
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 01:45 PM

God bless him for doing something useful in a stinky climate if it does go ahead. Great way to turn a large fortune into a small fortune. If the government give some edge to him to reduce the impact of all the job losses it would be a good thing.
Posted By: pandy

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 02:09 PM

Can't see any reason why Jim Ratcliffe should be given taxpayers' money, since he's moved himself offshore to avoid paying his fair share.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Defender - 17/09/19 06:51 PM

Ahh those mad boy South Africans, gotta love the attitude. The steering wheel is even in the right place!

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-japanesecars/toyota-announces-v8-land-cruiser-namib/40969
Posted By: howard

Re: Defender - 22/09/19 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by MJF
I don't really understand the anti 4x4 feelings on here.



Let me try. hide They are an essentially selfish choice for the typical purchaser without a farm / estate / or similar need.. For most B road and smaller, they are too big making life difficult for other roads users. On other roads and particularly with the common "privacy" glass they block out forward vision for road users in normal cars, they take up more parking room, they cause more pollution because of bigger engines / greater fuel consumption. And it seems to me that what once was the BMW lane on the motorway is now populated by Range Rovers driven agressively and fast.

And a significant proportion seem to be driven by women who have no real feel for the size of the thing they are driving nor the speed its going at.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by howard
And a significant proportion seem to be driven by women who have no real feel for the size of the thing they are driving nor the speed its going at.

But they feel so safe! Pity about the occupants of the small city car that they just crushed.

I have come to believe that drivers of the big SUVs, say over 2,000 kg, should have to have a special licence and undergo a course of training and a driving test.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 07:05 AM

+1 Peter having been literally driven into a hedge by one.
Posted By: JB62

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 09:00 AM

Do we need additional training to drive a high powered sports car? Maybe anyone over the age of 60 with outdated thinking on male /female capabilities needs some sort of training?My wife drives our 110 every day along unmade up tracks and so far seems to have avoided running anyone intro a ditch? the 110 is actually narrower than most cars! so on country lanes in Devon squeezes past places other vehicles cant? As to greater fuel consumption - my 1971 Series 2a probably has a lighter carbon footprint than a recent Prius. Look at the cost of manufacture and longevity of much of the JLR output over 50 years vs actual fuel consumption of equally expensively made - but short lasting vehicles that use 10mpg less??

Just a few alternative views.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 09:34 AM

A breath of fresh air on the topic, I see exactly those sort of good road skills exhibited in my rural area including Dartmoor by the lady drivers of Defenders some of whom will be farmers wives or equestrians I imagine and they are very courteous drivers. Not so the Japanese and German 4x4 drivers on the local school run though they really don't seem to have a care for other drivers at all.
Posted By: tmg513

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by +8Rich
A breath of fresh air on the topic, I see exactly those sort of good road skills exhibited in my rural area including Dartmoor by the lady drivers of Defenders some of whom will be farmers wives or equestrians I imagine and they are very courteous drivers. Not so the Japanese and German 4x4 drivers on the local school run though they really don't seem to have a care for other drivers at all.

Are there a lot of inconsiderate Japanese and Germans round your way?
Posted By: The Austrian

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gambalunga

I have come to believe that drivers of the big SUVs, say over 2,000 kg, should have to have a special licence and undergo a course of training and a driving test.

I would not mind as I do have a truck drivers license too😎
Posted By: Jon G4LJW

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 10:58 AM

One thing I like about my parents' CRV is the visibility - makes it much easier to see round bends, and over hedges. A bit of a change from the Morgan!
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 02:38 PM

I will always remember the sight of a Disco Mk2 losing control and spinning on Hwy280 in front of me, narrowly missing a fuel tanker... yes SUVs can have control challenges vs "normal cars". But I'm a smug Yeti 4x2 driver delivering 40mpg... primarily chosen for its high hip point and compact suburban footprint.

I did enjoy the new Defender configurator. But that CO2 output is indeed tragic for 2019 unless you need its capabilities. Then again its CO2 is better than my M3W...
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 03:00 PM

I don’t think the British Military will be buying the new Defender?
Posted By: MJF

Re: Defender - 23/09/19 06:10 PM

The UK military stopped buying the old one years ago as it does not offer the level of protection now required.

The most likely vehicle for the future transport of UK troops in a combat zone is the Oshkosh JLTV which has been developed in the US to replace the HMMWV
Posted By: Budster

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 02:47 PM

I’ve just found out that the new Defender sports 85 ECUs!

scared
Posted By: Fuel.inj

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 03:30 PM

[quote=Budster]I’ve just found out that the new Defender sports 85 ECUs!

That’s 84 more than my Defender!
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 05:48 PM

85 more than mine! grin2
Posted By: Mkiss

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 07:06 PM

They should just have renamed it - it has nothing to do with the trad one.
Jus a white roof does not make it a Defender.

Perhaps it should be called the "new Defender" just like the "new Beetle" that had nothing in common with the trad ones....
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Defender - 26/09/19 08:07 PM

85 ECUs and every one will be using the cheapest microprocessor they could find that would do that job.
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