Talk Morgan

Electric Cars- collecting Tax

Posted By: DaveK

Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 04/09/19 09:15 PM

I was talking to my mates in the Pub last night, and the subject of electric cars came up. The problem that all governments of the world have/will have is collecting a new tax to replace the vast amounts made by the selling of patrol. I said that I believe that it is a con by the people in power that we are being pushed into electric, ie once Electric start selling in numbers - the price of electric has to go up. also why is all this extra power coming from. I believe the last count we have about 40 million cars on the road in the UK. Someone said it must now be possible to have a flexible solar panel that can be put on top of cars that charge the car during daylight hours. But of course what Government wants that!

It be good to see what the Talk Morgan community think of this.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 04/09/19 10:04 PM

I am working with a company at the moment and they have software that is modelling the roof of a city alongside the power consumption in a dynamic model. It is incredible the brain power and effort going into resolving the grid block in this space. Solar panel car roofs have been possible for quite some time. Imagine if the government offered a benefit if you had your house roof MADE out of solar panels instead of tiles with an overlay. Might be interesting.
Posted By: Coppins999

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 04/09/19 11:17 PM

Being a bit of a sad nerd, I did do some calculations along the lines of what you were discussing in the pub a couple of years ago. Based on a worse case scenario of everyone with a Tesla P80 which is a powerful electric guzzling yank tank and based on best figures I could find for miles driven per workday by all vehicles, I estimated that to charge all the cars over an eight hour night, would still need less demand on the electric grid than the grid currently supplies during the day.

All it would need is reasonable “smart” scheduling of the charging which could be done either automated or through pricing incentives just as economy7 tariffs work.

Of course majority of electric generation is still fossil fuel which in relative terms is easy to control and schedule compared to wind and solar in our climate.
Posted By: Coppins999

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 04/09/19 11:36 PM

Oh and in terms of solar cells on car bodywork that is not possible. Sunlight at peak is approximately 1kW per metre square. So assuming max surface area for car in plan view of 2 x 4 metres gives 8kW. But solar panels after lots of research still only 15 to 20%efficient. So we are down to roughly 1.5kW per car. Using Nissans figures for their Leaf car it needs 40kW/hr for 160miles. (Probably optimistic)

So one hour in the sun at midday in full sunlight will get us 6 miles down the road. This will decrease with time of day and weather and of course don’t park in a multi storey car park.
Posted By: ChrisConvertible

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 04/09/19 11:49 PM

Years ago there was a guy driving around Australia in an old Diesel van painted with pictures of vegetables on it and the words "VegeVan". in the back he had some equipment for making BioDiesel from the left over oil from takeaway/ Fish and chip shops. He would pull over in shopping centres, go into takeaway shops collecting the used cooking oil from anyone that would give it to him. Then try show anyone interested his setup saying this is how we save the planet. I saw it a few times while riding my bike to work and it smelt like old fish and chips, not great but better than the typical old diesel van blowing black smoke.

I googled BioDiesel back then and couldn't find much about it apart from on article in a newspaper that the UK had just banned the backyard manufacture of BioDiesel until they work out a way to tax it. So not sure how that went.

Now BioDiesel is available for sale in Australia but not much cheaper than regular, i think there are hardly any people making it themselves and the commercial places selling it are probably paying taxes just like regular diesel. Not sure if that is because it is banned or just not worth doing. As a petrol car owner I never really looked into it.

I did read that the tax collected on petrol has reduced over the years, we are driving more than ever but in cars that are now doing say 7L/100km compared to 12L/100km, My 1968 mini 998 back in 1985 used about 9L/100km and even more on a trip as it struggled to keep up with the speed limit, my wife's Skoda Octavia uses 7L/100km around town and goes down to 5L/100km on a trip. In 2000 excise taxes made up 44% of the government revenue, in 2013 39% due to better engines and with electric cars chances are it will keep dropping even more.

So yes it is a huge chuck of government revenue and somehow it will have to be collected, raising taxes on income is not popular and recently we have had some small tax cuts so the public expects cuts not increases.

I have noticed both my electricity bills and gas bills have gone up recently which I initially attributed to my son spending longer in the shower but I expect it is more taxes on the supply companies being passed on by higher prices to the end consumers. Maybe that is how it will be collected?

Years ago when we built the house we got gas cooking, gas heating and gas hot water. Now in my state (ACT) they want to end up 100% renewal energy so trying to phase out gas, I guess that is probably why the gas has gone up more than the electricity.

In summary for Australia
1, I don't expect petrol excise rates to be increased by the government - it was frozen in 2000 to shut up some whingers when the price went up significantly. But I do expect the price of crude to go down as demand is reduced, so possibly cheaper petrol for a while.
2, I don't expect personal income tax rate increases as that is too politically unacceptable. But I expect any cuts will be less than any increase due to people wages being higher so we will get bracket creep.
3, More taxes on energy supply companies so they put up their prices accordingly.
Posted By: LightSpeed

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 05/09/19 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Alistair
I am working with a company at the moment and they have software that is modelling the roof of a city alongside the power consumption in a dynamic model. It is incredible the brain power and effort going into resolving the grid block in this space. Solar panel car roofs have been possible for quite some time. Imagine if the government offered a benefit if you had your house roof MADE out of solar panels instead of tiles with an overlay. Might be interesting.

What if the government paid you to have a roof of solar panels, and paid to maintain then. Then the poor folk could could afford to stay in their homes.
Posted By: Uther

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 05/09/19 02:55 AM

To claw back the the lost income from tax on liquid/gas fuels, they simply have to fit the car with a device that records the distances you travel, send it back to a central server and mail a bill out you, just like existing utilities
Posted By: Fox Terrier

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 05/09/19 06:56 AM

There are plenty of reasons for governments to promote the use of electric vehicles including lower end-use pollution and more flexibility in the power source for the electricity they need. Nobody in government thinks they are the answer to the environmental problems we face. I don’t think this is a government « con » in any way, shape or form. Taxes are important in any civilised society and I have no doubt as revenue from fossil fuels decreases another method of taxation will emerge - probably similar to the one Uther has outlined above.
Posted By: PaulV

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 05/09/19 07:31 AM

I think Dave and his mates should have stared into their beer glasses for a second more to see where extra tax revenues are going to come from. wink

The nice thing about putting solar onto your roof is avoiding supplier taxes. But expect governments to start taxing your roof power generation eventually!
Posted By: TimG

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 05/09/19 08:01 AM

When all UK homes have "smart" meters they are likely to have a function that can tell if a car is connected to a charger. I think if you take the grant for a home charger you have to have a smart meter. To tax public chargers would be relatively easy.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 05/09/19 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by TimG
When all UK homes have "smart" meters they are likely to have a function that can tell if a car is connected to a charger. I think if you take the grant for a home charger you have to have a smart meter. To tax public chargers would be relatively easy.


I suspect smart meters will eventually be used to charge the end user a variable tariff for juice, which will be constantly variable throughout the day / night depending on demand

There are also intelligent charge points which can feed power back into the grid from EV's that are plugged in with spare capacity
Posted By: Neilda

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 05/09/19 08:24 AM

I plan to hook up a diesel generator - simple. smile

Don't forget that there is a luxury car tax already in place for vehicles over £40k.
Posted By: Mkiss

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 06/09/19 11:20 AM

We are taxed for energy.
In Germany it is almost half of the price for the kwh that goes for tax and "Umlagen" (crossfinanig new energy incentives).
It should be easy to adjust that for dropping petrol tax.

Most of the problems dicussed are simply not existing.

What bugs me is the search for the one and only single solution - there is no.
Long distance is different from citiy traffic as people moving is from logistics.

We will have an even more complicated mix of solutions.

Density of city traffic can`t be solved with electric propulsion.

Get more Bromptons and alike on the streets - that is still the smartes form of mobility for cities...
Posted By: ChrisConvertible

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 07/09/19 03:14 AM

Yes electric power only removes the pollution not the congestion.

I remember one day at work a lady complaining about the walk from the car park, as she gets in about 8:30am the small car park right next to the building is full so she has to walk 300 metres to the main car park. About 200 people working in that building ride pushbikes to work so I though to myself if we all drove then chances are she wouldn't even get a park in the main car park and have to park further away like maybe 500 metres.

As parking prices go up and congestion gets worse I notice a lot more people on the bike paths which I think is a good thing, apart from the ones riding electric bikes that don't seem to have the experience to handle a bike well but riding at the speeds of experienced riders or even faster and I am sure are going to cause an accident sooner or later.

If the concept of driver less cars ever hits our streets I can imagine congestion getting even worse. At the moment the number of cars on the road is controlled by the number of licensed drivers. So maybe dad drives to work and mum drops off the kids on the way to her work, then maybe the kids catch a bus home and raid whatever they can find in the fridge. In the future I see a possibility where dad goes to work, mum goes to work, the two kids go in different driver-less Uber cars because they are at different schools, then the kids come home also via driver-less cars, don't like what is in the fridge so order Macdonalds via their phone to turn up via one driver-less car and ice-cream from somewhere else to turn up in another driver-less car.
Posted By: lowebird

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 07/09/19 09:29 AM

All this talk of electric cars to reduce pollution at the point of use is very laudable in as much as the nasty emissions will reduce the green house effect, however what are we going to do about all the cow, sheep, horse and goat farts that happen every day?
That is a vast amount of methane going into the atmos and if you take it to ludicrous limits what about us as humans? Just a thought on a wet Saturday!!
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 07/09/19 04:02 PM

Put self lighters on the back of them to burn it off ?
Posted By: Edwin

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 07/09/19 07:38 PM

We could eat most of them if you can pass legislation banning the selfish habits of the vegetarians. They are not doing their part to help cut down on the methane problem. I'm sure they will object to the intrusion on their preferred lifestyle. They are just going to have to suck it up and do the right thing for the sake of the planet. It's a small thing to ask for in light of the real serious problem we are facing.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 07/09/19 08:20 PM

We can't eat them all, it would mean students have nothing left to go tipping at midnight.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Electric Cars- collecting Tax - 07/09/19 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by lowebird
All this talk of electric cars to reduce pollution at the point of use is very laudable in as much as the nasty emissions will reduce the green house effect, however what are we going to do about all the cow, sheep, horse and goat farts that happen every day?
That is a vast amount of methane going into the atmos and if you take it to ludicrous limits what about us as humans? Just a thought on a wet Saturday!!

Well Reg the Argies are way ahead of us in that department at least in the trials stages, this image is from 2014 and the take off seems to be prior to the rear box so should be silent in operation juggle

[Linked Image]

Rain what rain, it's been 18C here and full on sunshine at the Kingsbridge Agricultural Show and the air was full of Horse, Cow, Sheep, Camel and Farmer fart but we all survived another years exposure cheers and it is far more preferable than the BS emanating from London Village on the bank of the Thames.
The Camel Racing and Tractor Football were good spectator events, a great day out meeting old friends for a catch up.
© 2019 Talk Morgan - Morgan Sports Car Discussion Forum, Community and News