Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report

Posted by: griffo

Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 23/04/19 04:44 PM

Ecoboost Plus 4 Plus (final Report)
SEE MORGAN PHOTO GALLERY FOR PIX

I must be setting a trend with "Possum", the turboed "Plus 4 Plus", since MMC have followed suit with their turboed Plus 6. Their yet to be announced new Plus 4 will have a turboed four cylinder BMW engine.
Possum’s rolling road tuning took place on March 20 at Stanton Motorsports (just off the M4) and went very well.
Possum had been carefully run in for 250 miles. All the instruments working fine, as per the standard car, and careful brim-to-brim tank measurements saw 31.7 mpg during test drives. Touring consumption seems to be around 36 mpg.
With minimum boost (0.4 bar) the engine already felt very pokey. On the dyno the boffins from MBE Systems progressively increased boost to a still-modest 1.0 bar with fuel map to suit and the result is pretty amazing. Target figure of 240 flywheel bhp was reached (more is available with extra boost) but the all-important torque figures exceeded expectations.
Torque curve is very flat from 2500 rpm to 5000 and peaks at 3000 rpm with 280 ft lbs (standard GDI Plus 4 only manages 145 ftlbs). To sum up, very driveable, loads of low down omph and no lag thanks to the advanced Borg Warner twin scroll turbo.
One major difference from the standard Plus 4 is the smoothness of the engine, which is also quite a lot quieter since the turbo acts as a slight silencer. With a high quality 200 cell EU4 compliant cat fitted the emissions have been judged “well within limits” and it will fly through the test, according to Possum’s local Morgan dealer (and MOT test station).
Having driven a few Rover-engined Plus 8’s over the past 50 years, “Possum” feels considerably quicker – and is much lighter.
The only downsides were self-inflicted. I fitted a new and rather fierce MX5 racing clutch and lightweight single mass flywheel instead of a standard MX5 clutch and the dual mass flywheel which came with the new engine. As a result it was initially a little juddery moving off from a standstill – this is hardly noticeable now since the clutch had bedded in. If doing it again I’d go for the standard MX5 clutch which should cope fine given the light weight of the car. Also, on the rolling road, we blew off a turbo boost pipe between the intercooler and the throttle body. This was because I had to shorten some of the alloy pipes to fit and they lost their “swage” on the ends for the Jubilee clip to snuggle behind. I found an inexpensive swage-maker on E-bay so all the pipes are now very secure and have the extra security of Jubilee clips lock-wired together.
So I’m a happy bunny and can’t keep the smile off my face. Icing on the cake was my insurers only asking a reasonable £130 a year extra for the uprated car.
Possum was ordered from new with a limited slip differential and I had already fitted a panhard rod. With all the extra torque anti-tramp bars were considered advisable to eliminate spring “wind up” and those nice people from New Elms provided a pair with machined stainless spring plates which are a work of art. I took boss Tim Ayres for a brief passenger ride in the car and he emerged impressed.
Several of you have asked about carrying out your own Ecoboost conversions on GDI or Duratec Plus 4s, or having one done. If so you need to contact Tony DeSciscio at:
descisct@gmail.com
Finally, “Possum” will be at the Prescott “Thrill on the Hill” on Sunday August 11th – see you there.
Posted by: Rovert

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 23/04/19 05:05 PM

Most impressive work.
Posted by: rid967

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 23/04/19 08:48 PM

Amazing and courageous journey. Thanks for sharing. Fabulous car and quite unique. If only the ARP4 had been like this!
Posted by: deano

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 23/04/19 08:57 PM

You well and truly should feel a happy bunny, congratulations.
Posted by: Gambalunga

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 23/04/19 10:27 PM

Well done. I only wish I could do something similar.

Torque and power figures like that would be supurb in the new "Plus 4" or whatever they decide to call it. More power would become much more costly in Italy and it is the midrange torque that really counts anyway.
Posted by: Heinz

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 23/04/19 11:03 PM

Well done Griffo! Your Mog is one of a kind. I have rent a 2.3 Mustang in the States and I can confirm that the twin scroll technology is a very good step forward in turbo development. Your car must be amazing. She combines the very Trad concept in combination with a modern engine which is unique. We will see similar engines in MMC future but in combination with a „modern“ car suspension which is not a bad story on its own but you have realized a phase which will not be duplicated any more.
Posted by: auster

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 04:32 AM

Congratulations on your achievements with this car; most impressive. Also many thanks for such excellent reporting of the journey and destination. I'm sure you are inspiring others.
Posted by: Richard Wood

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 07:56 AM

Great info Griffo, you must be over the moon that all the sweat and tears have paid off.

Given the better than expected torque, how do you feel about the standard MX5 box taking it? I believe the six speed version is stronger although you probably don't need the extra ratio.

The cars light weight will help of course. Many years ago whilst building a Cobra replica with a big valve Ford 351 V8, I was told not to worry about the relatively weak ZF gearbox mated to it as the cars light weight would not allow the full torque through it - traction would break first wink
Posted by: DaveW

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 08:26 AM

Amazing job. wine
Posted by: griffo

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 09:16 AM


"how do you feel about the standard MX5 box taking it?"

Hi Richard,
I did have some worries on that score but Westfield Cars (who use the same ecoboost motor mated to the 5-speed MX5 box) said they have had no issues, even in track versions boosted up to 300 bhp. Apparently the latest iteration of the Mazda box is much stronger than earlier ones.
Posted by: John V6

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 09:30 AM

Well done. I drove the Mustang with the 2.3l turbo across the states on Route 66 and that flew. In your car it must be even better.
Posted by: Richard Wood

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 09:33 AM

Thanks Griffo. I guess the light weight advantage follows through on both cars regarding torque transmission.

Yours now gives same torque as 3.7 Cyclone but (amazingly) at lower rpm!
Posted by: MOG 615

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 10:38 AM

The great feature of the 4 cylinder cars is their "chuck ability" compared to the heavier +8s and Roadsters .

With that amount of low range torque you have created something very special indeed, instant go AND good handling.

I must also complement you on your engineering skills and devotion to achieving your goals, not many of us would be prepared to take on such a project.
Posted by: Hamwich

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 11:42 AM

Originally Posted By MOG 615
The great feature of the 4 cylinder cars is their "chuck ability" compared to the heavier +8s and Roadsters .

With that amount of low range torque you have created something very special indeed, instant go AND good handling.

I must also complement you on your engineering skills and devotion to achieving your goals, not many of us would be prepared to take on such a project.


Absolutely. A fantastic result, you should be very proud of what you have achieved.
Posted by: Paul F

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 01:36 PM

Originally Posted By Hamwich
Originally Posted By MOG 615
The great feature of the 4 cylinder cars is their "chuck ability" compared to the heavier +8s and Roadsters .

With that amount of low range torque you have created something very special indeed, instant go AND good handling.

I must also complement you on your engineering skills and devotion to achieving your goals, not many of us would be prepared to take on such a project.


Absolutely. A fantastic result, you should be very proud of what you have achieved.


+1
Posted by: +8Rich

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 04:08 PM

A fantastic achievement and it has been a great project to follow so thanks for sharing it with us all.

Congratulations enjoy your very rapid miles cheers.
Posted by: PaulJ

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 24/04/19 04:12 PM

I've been watching your project with great interest and thinking that my ARP4 could do with some of the torque you have at your disposal. The only thing stopping me from going down the same route is the fact that if I change my engine, it will no longer be a Cosworth ARP4 and therefore will knock a large chunk of value off the car, on top of the cost of installing the engine - a double whammy.

Well done on the whole job, it must have been very satisfying?
Posted by: xc68anc

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 06:50 AM

A great report! I read about it at first in the MSCC magazine. And I think: ohoh, out with a trailer, back with the trailer and an engine... And I think a lot of wives are not happy. They can't see the real worth ;-) (of the future fun). I know it, I' ve got a classic MINI and I found some engines...

Than I see your way: a lot power for (nearly) a budget. And I was not far away to travel to Britain. To collect such an engine.

But than after a cup of coffee it was clear I could never get a chance of "TÜV"/ MOT in Germany and than after 40 years experience in frontwheeldrive cars I' m affraid that on twisty roads the back would be faster than my reaction.

I see you've done it right! And I'm still learning.

René



Posted by: Gambalunga

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By PaulJ
I've been watching your project with great interest and thinking that my ARP4 could do with some of the torque you have at your disposal. The only thing stopping me from going down the same route is the fact that if I change my engine, it will no longer be a Cosworth ARP4 and therefore will knock a large chunk of value off the car, on top of the cost of installing the engine - a double whammy.

Well done on the whole job, it must have been very satisfying?

Fit a supercharger to the existing engine evil
https://www.jamsportstore.co.uk/products...ant=32560533639
Posted by: Heinz

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 09:03 AM

The story below is just an example and could happen with a Morgan/Rotrex combination in the same way.
The very car at the link here is actually my Elise equipped with a Rotrex charger.
https://www.rotrex.com/centrifugal-superchargers/lotus/lotus-elise-exige-220s-toyota-1zz/

This all happened 12 years ago, I still have the Elise but it was a very rocky road for a long time! I would NEVER do this conversion again and can advise anyone against it or you take it that you can get into the shallows of unpredictable traps and problems.
After a quick fatal engine damage the tuning garage had to change essential parts of the engine and it worked only reliable by using other connecting rods other pistons etc. so that the compression could be weakened. Since then the engine holds over 56.000 km. The Elise delivers 260 Nm at 4000 rpm and 220 hp from the 1ZZ engine, so a little less power but stronger torque at lower rpm than the 2ZZ conversions.
I would never put a Rotrex charger simply on an engine that is designed as a naturally aspirated engine in terms of compression. Or you work with very little boost pressure but then you must ask yourself if the weak result is worth the costs in relation.

Back to the topic,
Griffo, in my view you did the only right thing with your decision for a complete engine solution.

I don't have any complaints against Rotrex conversions, but one should be careful what he could get involved with.
Posted by: PaulJ

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 11:48 AM

Thanks for the suggestion Peter, but Heinz is absolutely right. I did do quite a bit of research into a blower early on in my tenure, including having a long to to a guy at Cosworth, and the general advice was that it just is not worth the trouble and expense. It would probably end up costing the same as Griffos conversion once all the extra bits and pieces plus work in getting it all to function have been added.

The answer is to forget torque and buzz along in one gear lower than normal. As it happens after 7000 odd miles, it seems to be getting torquier in the low and mid range, but nowhere near what a modern Ecotec engine is giving.
Posted by: Peter J

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 04:00 PM

I'm just getting used to the 2.0L turbo 4 engine in my new Mercedes A35. It has a twin scroll turbo, develops 302bhp and 295 ft lbs torque from 2500 rpm.

There is no detectable turbo lag, the engine spins up to the running in rev limit of 4500 rpm.

Based on Griffo's report and my experience with the A35 the Turbo +4, when it appears, will be magnificent! The BMW B48 motor, which I guess will be used, develops about 300 bhp and 300 ft lbs torque, depending on the installation.
Posted by: Rovert

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 04:19 PM

I find the concept of a 2 litre, 4 pot producing 300 bhp for use in a hefty road car a bit unreal. It would take a lot of money to make my 4 litre V8 produce that!
Posted by: Gambalunga

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 05:22 PM

Perhaps the 185 kW (248 hp) version would be more realistic. 350 N⋅m (258 lb⋅ft)at 1,450–4,800 rpm would be more than enough and you would need some difference in both performance and price when compared to the Plus 6.

Then there would be the Plus 3 wink with the B38A15M0 1,500 cc 100 kW (134 bhp)at 4,400-6,000 rpm 220 N⋅m (162 lb⋅ft)at 1,250-4,300 rpm.

To put that in context the current (or outgoing) Roadster develops Max Torque 380Nm (280lb/ft) but does not do so across such a wide range. The GDI Plus 4 develops Max Torque 201 Nm (148 lb/ft), again only at high RPM.
Posted by: MDS61

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 08:09 PM

Is there a market for taking an old Plus Four worth £25kish and updating it with a 4 pot turbo (plus brakes, suspension and chassis tweaks) and having a great car for £32kish...blowing most things on the road into the weeds? cheers
Posted by: Heinz

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 10:00 PM

If it is legally feasible in the UK I see an interesting market here. Buy a Plus 4 Duratec from about 2005 if possible with an engine failure to drop the price even more (which is unlikely due to the robust engines and the often low mileage). Anyway it should be possible and result in a cool car.
Posted by: Gambalunga

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 10:05 PM

Quote:
Honesty means doing it right, even when no one is looking!

Doing it when no one is looking would definitly be best in Italy. And honestly you would never get it past the Department of Motorizzazione (the Italian equivalent of the DVLA). This is one area where the UK has a long and liberal tradition.

Here the red tape, engineers certificates and the bureaucracy would block you at every move.
Posted by: Heinz

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 25/04/19 10:14 PM

A morgan has the big advantage of being a morgan. With a Morgan I would risk the engine conversion because hardly anyone knows about it. The car is so exotic that it enjoys great levels of freedom. Even my exhaust manifold would not be considered doubtful in a traffic control. It can also be a little louder.

All these changes on a VW Polo and the young owner would have problems immediately.
Posted by: rid967

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 26/04/19 12:04 AM

[quote=Gambalunga]Perhaps the 185 kW (248 hp) version would be more realistic. 350 N⋅m (258 lb⋅ft)at 1,450–4,800 rpm would be more than enough and you would need some difference in both performance and price when compared to the Plus 6.

Agree entirely. This would be, in my opinion, the ideal modern Morgan and a worthy continuation of the heritage allied to sensible compliance with the tightening regulatory environment.
Cheque book at the ready for deposit!
Posted by: A11OGE

Re: Turbo Plus 4 Plus -- final report - 08/05/19 09:29 AM

I have just quoted this to my son this morning. We both agree.
Quote:
Honesty means doing it right, even when no one is looking!

This could be the quote of the day.

as is "“Worrying is like sitting in a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn’t get you anywhere. “ Erma Bombeck, 1927–1996.