Talk Morgan

Starting after a lay up?

Posted By: Neilda

Starting after a lay up? - 14/01/20 07:36 AM

I haven't driven my 8 since September - it's been tucked up in my garage on a battery tender.

I probably won't drive it for a while yet, so it could be 5 months or so sitting idle.... I suspect modern engines will cope OK with this, but might there be anything I should do before spinning the engine up?
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 14/01/20 07:52 AM

Nielda, I know nothing of modern Morgans, though hearing an engine rattle until oil pressure builds is never comforting to the mechanically sympathetic. Thus if it might be simple to access (?), pulling the fuel pump relay prior to turning the engine over until pressure builds, might be thought worth while...? Flat spots on the tyres are perhaps another consideration..?
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 14/01/20 08:45 AM

If you have less than half a tank of fuel, it might be worth adding some stabiliser. Not so bad if the tank is full.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 14/01/20 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Neilda
I haven't driven my 8 since September - it's been tucked up in my garage on a battery tender.

I probably won't drive it for a while yet, so it could be 5 months or so sitting idle.... I suspect modern engines will cope OK with this, but might there be anything I should do before spinning the engine up?

Personally I would run it up to temp (let the fan cut in) once a month, if it's stood for months you'll end up with very dry camshaft parts that take high loads
Posted By: howard

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 14/01/20 02:42 PM

I well and truly bu666ered a stag doing just that. The problem is that all the wear with an egine takes place at start up when cold. Plus you get oil drain in a 4 week period. So effectively you are causing as much wear as you can. In the case of the stag I ran the camshaft bearings in one head.

I'm for nobbling the fuel pump and running up the oil pressure but I would be a bit worried wehter that would throw an EML.
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 14/01/20 05:02 PM

As I typed Howard, I have no experience with a digital Morgan, though think the Porsche guys pull what they identify as the DME relay which operates the fuel pump... I think it dose fire up a fault indication that clears it`s self after a mile or two...

My old mid 80`s +8 will not bring in the fuel pump relay UNTIL oil pressure is being detected by the oil pressure switch, which can be both good and bad..... Good in terms of avoiding firing up a "dry" engine... Bad in terms of a battery with little life when it it fails to spin the engine.. just.. short of what might be required after lay-up denying you of that long awaited first run out in the sun...

Jon M, Ran my Mog up Sunday last, and as you suggest, I too like to run it up to temperature till the fan cooling fan cuts in and out a couple of times I even switch the heater fan on too in order to give it a run also. Modern Morgans seem VERY dependant on efficient fan operation, since lean burn engines were introduced...?

I also like to push it back and then again forward for the next run to try to avoid flat spotting the tyres and ensure the brakes are free..
Posted By: Mogdriver

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 14/01/20 07:02 PM

Luddite, wen starting a non EFI Morgan the starting circuit energisers the fuel pump so you do get fuel pumped to the carburettors, on releasing the ignition switch when running it switches to the oil pressure switch which is somewhat similar to the inertia switch on a EFI car in that when the engine stops the fuel pump electrical circuit is broken. There is a good article on Gomog. There have been a few failures of these oil pressure switches but in the field it can be bypassed with say a a paper clip or similar to at least get mobile again. This is very much a temporary fix.
Deep deep dowunder
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 15/01/20 02:07 PM

Perhaps if it is no real hassle part of this thread might be best to appear in the maintenance section if thought to have any value..?

Doug/Mogdriver... Many thanks for taking time to reply re the fuel pump control circuitry. I liked the entirely logical idea that the fuel pump might be fed as you suggest via the ignition switched START circuit while the ign key was in the cranking position thus OVER-RIDING the opened contacts of the oil pressure switch to then supply the pump.... At which stage hopefully the carbs will have been fed enough fuel to initially fire up the engine, and once fired up, hopefully enough oil pressure will have been raised during that process to close the oil pressure switch contacts, and thus maintain the supply to fuel pump in order to feed the carbs when the ign key is returned from the START to the RUN position ...?

As you suggest Doug, with the engine now running and the fuel pump in operation, the oil pressure switch can then act as a safety device in the case of an accident, where it is possible that as the result of the circumstances relating to the accident the ign may have been be left ON risking fuel being pumped out of a damaged fuel pipe. In such a situation with the engine stalled as the result of the accident, the oil pressure will have dropped to zero, the oil pressure switch contacts will have opened and thus the electricity supply to the pump will be cut, stopping fuel delivery.. Thus the oil pressure switch can and does act similarly to inertia switch used in other vehicles to cut off fuel in an accident situation....?

However in the case of MY carb fed 1985-6 Morgan it`s fuel pump appears to be directly fed via the oil pressure switch alone, which determines that with no oil pressure the fuel pump has no supply. My old Mog was totally stripped and restored by it`s garage business Morgan enthusiast owner circa 1999 (?) As the result of those works it is ever possible that wiring modifications could have taken place, I believe it is also possible that an anti theft device was fitted during that time, which it seems likely would inhibit both the fuel pump and starter solenoid supplies.

I have doubts that the wiring of the fuel pump was altered other than it`s primary supply during the anti theft device fitment, but not quite in the frame of mind to cut into the harness to prove a point (at this time), however in order to prove to myself that my +8 operated as I suggested, I removed the white with red tracer at the starter motor solenoid, in order to remove starter motor activation out of the scenario while the ign key was turned to the START position, as expected I heard the relay energising to bring the (now disconnected) starter motor solenoid into circuit... HOWEVER, there was no fuel pump ticking, which I take as proof that MY +8`s fuel pump operates as I suggested in my mail...?

It would seem ideal if other carb fed +8 owners could determine the operation of their fuel pump circuitry..?

GoMoG is indeed a world leading source of assistance for Morganeers and others. Sorry I have not seen the info you mention relative to the fuel pump circuitry Doug.

In many circuits there can be ways of TEMPORARILY by-passing safety switching in order to get you home if a switch fails, and it is well worthwhile to know where and how to create a by-pass. HOWEVER leaving such by-passes in place as the result of forgetfulness may create a risk in an accident...?

I suspect that lengthy periods of lay-up, which has come to be the norm for many classic cars, played no part in vehicle design and construction, and given that digitally controlled vehicles with all sorts of bells and whistles seem to have a constant draw on their batteries, many laid up cars suffer from top condition batteries ever going flat in time, add to that scenario less than 100% efficient batteries, likely to loose charge at an even quicker rate, thus lay-up can and does create issues that require careful consideration..
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 15/01/20 06:11 PM

Bring back the crank handle hide
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 15/01/20 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by +8Rich
Bring back the crank handle hide

That's how I prime the F Super thumbs
Posted By: Viper

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 18/01/20 10:36 AM

Personally I wouldn’t worry.

I’ve had cars stand for months and even years.

Certainly wouldn’t be starting it up every 4 weeks causing condensation etc
Posted By: NickCW

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 21/01/20 01:05 PM

I wouldn't worry personally, starting it up and letting it idle multiple times will give the most wear as its the slowest warm-up cycle, and it can cause condensation to form in the exhaust and oil.
Modern oils are so good I would just start it when you want, but don't go mad on the throttle till its circulated.

If you remove the fuel pump fuse you can crank it over without it firing if you wish to do so, if it helps I wrote a guide on oils a while back - its fallen down the page list somewhat but might be useful if your interested.
Posted By: madmax

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 24/01/20 06:44 AM

As said above , crank engine but don't let it fire initially ! sherlock
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 24/01/20 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by madmax
As said above , crank engine but don't let it fire initially ! sherlock

The map on my engine specifies a minimum of 3 seconds cranking before ignition is fired, seems very sensible to me as it helps to build up a bit of oil pressure.
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 24/01/20 10:33 AM

Nick, thanks for taking the time to provide an insight to the complexity around something as "simple" as choosing the correct oil for a machine... (-: Oh for a return to the simple life..(-: But wait climate change will perhaps take us back there... (-:

There are two sides to every coin, though perhaps more these days..(-: One amongst us reckons he may have wrecked a Stag engine perhaps with low or no oil pressure start ups..? Whereas another seems to hint at engines can lie for years.. but then what..?

Condensation vs dry bearings, be they in the engine or the cooling fan in older Mogs... You chose, but as I suggested I doubt lengthy lay-up was ever part of the initial design criteria of motor vehicles...? Sure you can go to Youtube and find folk firing up old engines for the first time in many a year.... ME..? I think I might be inclined to try to introduce some pressure into the lube system and more, call me mechanically sympathetic..(-:

Digitisation in terms of engine protection..? Ign circuit inhibited for three seconds of the engine spinning on start up request, prior to sparks being generated, seems entirely reasonable if not programmed to allow oil pressure build up then what...?

As an alternative, "modern" design criteria, I think that a Porsche 997 runs the fuel pump for 3 seconds when the drivers door handle is operated on entry... quite the opposite of the expectations of others perhaps..? My guess is that with specific modern oils tighter engineering tolerances Porsche think was to ensure minimum battery drain and quick fire up, given all the electrical consumption that modern digital machinery places upon the battery when the car is not in use, even for short periods...?

Of course as Nick put together a comprehensive guide as to the criteria relative to oil types and their design function, it does indeed seem that modern engineering requirements may differ from that of the past, and Morgans span a considerable period of engineering advance..? I suspect the lean burn engines run hotter thus around that time design of much changed, increased reliance of cooling fans etc.etc. I suspect oil design was in the mix too..? These days it seems some oils are designed to last for the life of some machinery, thinking some Ford gearboxes fitted to Morgans may have no drain plugs..? How many new vehicles have grease nipples anywhere...(-:

I guess it helps to try to understand that which you might wish to achieve, and what YOUR priorities might be relative to the well being of your Morgan.....

If my carb fed Morgan lies for a while as it has done for much of it`s existence, it is likely that the fuel in it`s carbs may have evaporated, and it can take quite a few seconds of the fuel pump ticking merrily to refill the float bowls... BUT.. the fuel pump does not run unless there is oil pressure and to create oil pressure takes the engine being turned over for some period of time until the oil pressure switch detects that pressure build up and closes it`s contacts... all this after a lay up period of time enough for the fuel to evaporate.... Poor old battery... what are the chances of loosing out on that first run in the sun after Winter.if your Mogs wiring operates as does mine..?

I would be grateful if any other early +8 owners out there, know the wiring and operation of their fuel pump could describe it`s method of operation and how it might be wired, or provide a link to the appropriate web page, GoMoG or otherwise..?
Posted By: B3MOG

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 24/01/20 02:49 PM

If you send me your email address i will send you a copy of the wiring diagram from the +8 owners handbook for a carb fed engine.

David Byrne
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 24/01/20 07:32 PM

David/B3MOG Thank you very much for your very kind offer of scanning the +8 owners handbook... I have one such that came with my mid 80`s +8, and it seems the wiring diagram in mine is generic at best, and does not have an electric fuel pump, or an oil pressure switch or any associated circuitry included...It seems this may be the norm for trad +8 handbook wiring diagrams..? There is a number on the page that may well relate to the diagram W 549 553 81.
Posted By: Mogdriver

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 25/01/20 01:05 AM

Greetings Luddite, Apologies for not replying earlier. If you go to the Gomog site and go to +8 specific , then Oil and Oil Pumps, then Pressure Isolator switch which leads you to Rover SD1 3500 Oil Pressure isolator Switch by Bill Beddows with a small imputes from myself. That should explain things. My 4/4 with a 45DCOE needs an electric fuel pump in the fuel line turned on by a switch just before starting to fill the float chamber. At the moment I unscrew the top hat on the DCOE and pour in a small amount of petrol when the car has not been used a while.
from deep deep downunder.
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 25/01/20 04:46 AM

Doug/Mogdriver, many thanks for taking the time to reply to my request for further info. Coincedance or what, I found a wiring diagram drawn to depict operation exactly as you initially described on in this thread as per GoMoG.

I found a diagram in the Haynes manual for the Rover 3500 V8 No 356 of the Haynes manual series. There is also a drawing of the oil pressure switch connections on page 131 and wiring diagram on page 140 of the same manual, though the diagram also contains a lot of kit not fitted to a Morgan.

Beamed up the GoMoG site and used your directions to find the appropriate page

Early hours of the morning here, thus not dressed for the cold garage..(-: Seems that my issue may be that my oil pressure switch is not fully functioning internally as it should. While it does provide voltage to the pump when the ign switch is in the RUN position, engine running, oil pressure is present, by closing two of the contacts on the three contact pressure switch, and thus disconnects the same voltage when there is no oil pressure present.

My issue would seem to be that the third contact which should supply voltage to the fuel pump when the ign key is held in the START position does not do so.

The three connection oil pressure switch would seem to be configured to have two of it`s contacts connected internally when there is no oil pressure....and in that situation the white and brown wire will be connected to white and purple wire through the switch.... Thus when the ign key is held in the START position the white and brown wire becomes live, supplying voltage to the switch and thus passing voltage on to the white and purple wire causing the pump to run and fill the carb float chambers with fuel.

Once the engine starts and the oil pressure builds the internal switching action of the oil pressure switch breaks the connection from the white and brown to white and purple, and simultaneously makes a connection from the white wire to the white and purple wire that is connected to the pump, thus the pump continues to run providing the carb(s) with fuel for as long as there is oil pressure present as detected by the switch.. thus all is running normally.

Should there be some sort of accident where the ign is left on but the engine stalled there will be no oil pressure thus the fuel pump will stop operating.

I noted the by-pass suggestion on GoMoG Doug, I had contemplated something along similar lines using the starter button switch I had in my kit that once graces an old S Type Jag...(-: Though some years back had wired in "temporary" by-pass to achieve the same aim, having picked up voltage from the rear sidelight near the pump passing that through an unmounted switch from the switch to the pump, providing a temporary supply when the sidelights were switched on and the temporary switch ON.... Thus for the by-pass to operate two switching actions had to be performed, side light switch had to be on and the temporary by-pass too...which could be done prior to engaging the starting process if required... I had planned to use the starter button in place of the temporary switch, to add a degree of safety should the button be held on in an accident situation, but how far does it seem reasonable to take this stuff....I think your idea of manually filling your Weber carb float bowl works fine.... Not so easy on Strombergs or SUs though.. (-:

Of course there is a balance to consider... IF the three connection oil pressure switch is operating normally then the battery may well have enough power to fill the carbs while the starter is spinning the engine though after a lengthy lay up perhaps less which time the by-pass circuit may seem a reasonable idea may be fire up the engine pre filling the carbs should provide a quicker fire up of the engine, which may not be ideal as the oil will perhaps not have time to begin to build pressure.. thus allowing the engine to turn over without firing up for at least a few revs, before activating the by-pass or manually topping up a Weber may seem reasonable...?

More than happy to read alternative thinking, and thanks again Doug. thumbs
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 25/01/20 10:42 AM

It does sound like you need a new oil pressure switch Luddite with single pole two way contacts, assuming the wiring is intact.

The additional switch sounds like a good idea if your car is used infrequently. A push button momentary switch could be wired across the normal run (oil pressure present) contacts of the oil pressure switch. This would allow priming of carbs prior to starting providing ignition was in normal run position.
Posted By: Mogdriver

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 25/01/20 10:18 PM

Luddite I carry a spare switch Intermotor brand No 50610 but cross-referenced to other manufacturers. Rover have two references 589740 or RTC5930, Landrover are 589470 and lucas SOB812. Also lots of other manufacturers.
I have the Haynes manual for the SD1 ( Mog is 77 with SD1 engine and g/b ) and that shows wiring to and from switch. Hope this is some help.
From deep deep downunder
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Starting after a lay up? - 27/01/20 09:10 AM

Doug, thanks for the heads up on the part numbers, that will save a bit of searching, if/when I prove the switch to be at fault.

Richard, as you suggest the oil pressure switch is indeed a single pole two way unit incorporated as part of a safety circuit, designed in this case to cut out the fuel pump in the case of an accident. and in the case of my Morgan it seems one of the internal two switching actions has failed... I have yet to crawl under and confirm that the normally closed (N.C.) connection has failed, and that failure deprives the fuel pump of electrical supply while the ignition key switch is being held in the START position.

I did attempt a description of the circuit wiring for those who may be mystified by wiring diagrams though I am not at my best at 04:00hrs in the morning.

If anyone wants to kick the operational objectives and failures around a bit more to gain understanding, just SHOUT.. smile
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