More Lost Electrons

After seemingly sorting out the lack of any lights at the back of the car now just the brake lights, all 3, are dead. Everything else is working.
The first date I can get it to Williams is May 27th.
I'll take the round rear cover off to see if there is anything obvious, like a loose connector block or earth, but if not then it is one of the car controllers, the one at the back.

I'm getting fed up with driving up to Williams and back... and not driving anywhere else.
A CX PlusFour suddenly seems interesting again.


But not at £82,000....

All part of the ownership experience. I've only done 1500 miles between MOT's in mine and paid over £4k to have some wrongs righted. Meanwhile the Tesla has done 20,000 miles and hasn't cost a penny in repairs, servicing, road tax or anything other than volts. Still glad to have the Morgan, but they're not cheap!

I hear you Peter

Tom @Williams looked at and couldn't find fault with my headlights, which flicker off if I hit a bump. And then come back on after a moment. It's movement that does it... I've managed to hit them off and stop at traffic lights with the headlights off.

If it's not been fixed the first time I'm not confident that the next time the car's at Williams it'll be fixed, so I'll likely see if I can get the factory to look at it when it's there to have the paint put on properly.

Will

Got mine back from a factory service a couple of weeks back. Similar issue with the lights that now seems to have been fixed.

I thought I'd fixed my electric window issue after several months of working perfectly - starter the car a few days ago and bingo - no windows operating and all it did was sat in the garage for a week or so!

So the average cost between Morgan and Tesla is about normal?

Maybe I am 100% on the wrong foot but since I have been running a small dehumidifier in the garage I have not had any electrical issues - the main one when the engine just shuts down completely. I also had intermittent bulb "failure's" which werent broken bulbs or fuses. I think, like a lot of people have pointed out, it is an issue of the earthing connections and once they get even slightly moist then all hell breaks out!
Anyway I could be wrong!
T

Peter, you may get bored of repairs on the CX too, I know of a 6 on it's third radiator, a 4 that's had five and another waiting for its forth

I feel your pain - this is rotten luck this time of year - good luck with the fix.

Can only add Peter that electrical faults that "dissapear" after a bit of wire wiggling or re-make of connectors have a strong habit of re-appearing. For the most part isolating a faulty component and replacing it offers a greater likelihood of a long term fix.

Richard - that makes a lot of sense, I spent a lot of time wiggling a lot of wire only for the window issue to disappear for several months and only two weeks after putting all the door panels back on (no more wiggling) and the window fuse fails again! Maybe a stripped out, even lighter, Aero is the way to go!

My lights regularly show the “ bulb failure” icon. I check the lights- and all seem to be ok? A weird one is when, on start up, the telltale for full beam lights up. 10 mins later, the telltale fails when on full beam? Full beam is fine.

Occasionally, the headlights don’t work- so having been in IT for years. I use the standard “stop- turn it off- take the key out- count to ten” fix. And it mainly fires up.

Hopefully I will be showing the car at The Stonor Supercar and Classic show later in the month. I’ll have to get it cleaned though!!

ah, is that Peter's rear lights issue, or my flickering headlamps issue?!

Will

oh, and... if I don't keep the screenwash topped up I get an orange engine warning light
(only on a Morgan!)

Will

Will

In the earlier cars the screen wash tubes up near the squirters and behind the dash used to be a casual fit. Often they would come loose and water would be able to just leak out behind the dash. The usual introduction of a LUCAS quality experience would then occur with random lights/switches. I did also get a comment that removal and re-installation of the dash with all the tight cabling can disturb it and slack them off. It might be worth getting a small person and dangling them upside down in the footwell then running the washers and inspecting the state of them afterwards ?

Replacing the switch on the brake pedal wasn't the answer.
My friendly BMW technician said that it is possible that the brake light switch is associated with the master cylinder or the ABS unit.

I'm taking the car back to Williams again on 26th, and it will stay there until it is fixed.
I beginning to tire of this game, the costs and the uncertainty....the nagging what happens next thoughts. And the train ride from Salisbury to Yate.

This is all pretty depressing stuff to read, and you guys have my sympathies, I can only imagine how galling it must be to spend an awful lot of money on a car which simply isn't reliable. I'm wondering whether there's a case to be made for ruggedising the entire electrical system somehow - but even if you could, it wouldn't help the mechanical issues.

Of course, the obvious (but maybe not so palatable) answer is not to buy a recent Morgan, or anything built on a CX platform, and simply stick with the older stuff. Rugged, simple, easy to work on and easy to fix, perfectly performant enough for most purposes, cheap to run and still fun to drive?

Your problem seems some interna breaks on the wiring.

Electro mechanically the car is a +10 year old 45,000 mile E36 Series BMW 3 series....complicated by Morgan's value engineered CANBUS controllers from Volvo that are supposed to make the BMW and Morgan bits communicate.
So I think there will be periods of electrical incontinence... It is the price I have to pay for owning a hand built classic that whilst costing a bit to keep in good order isn't depreciating and when on form is simply a joy to drive....

I keep thinking a Plus Four would make sense but would it?

Sorry to read of your brake light issue Peter. My expectation of a brake light circuit would be that it should be of a robust and simple design with no electronics involved thus simple to trace and rectify any fault. The switch would seem the most likely fail point, after that fuse(s) and loose/dirty connections... For sure intermittent faults are a real pain, though the fault must be found and proven to be repaired to restore any faith in the system.. ?
Good luck.

The brake lights don't work... but I don't get a "bulb failure" warning, which should happen if a bulb fails.
So it isn't simple.
There are no obvious fuses for the brake lights.

There are strange things happening here... The Prince of Darkness seems to be at large.

Sorry Peter, I do not know the operation of bulb fail monitoring aspect of the circuit. My expectation would be that as brakes are a safety circuit that any monitoring of their operation would not affect their primary function, and that monitoring would be a secondary and seperate part of the circuit that should be unable to affect the primary function.... But then I have been wrong before, and more than once...

Peter, I may be completely wrong here but when I was in industry when canbus systems were popping up one of the problems I found was that at the end of the wiring cct (canbus) there is usually a small resistor in the cct that sometimes fails... of course it may all be different nowadays.


David Byrne

Peter, just change your dealer......

That ties in with the Canbus on my Roadster David. On the topology schematic there are 120Ω terminator resistors on medium and high speed networks linking BCU, PCM and instrument cluster. Guessing these are to load the networks and hide any random transients that might otherwise errantly trigger something.

It also shows twisted pairs of interconnecting cables carrying high and low signals on each network, again designed to cancel out random inductions.

It might be the way to go Peter. Such an annoying random fault on a limited production run hybrid system is, pardon me for suggesting, seemingly beyond the pay grade for most if not all Morgan dealers. At this stage I would tempted to seek out a Canbus expert (easily said I know) and better spend money there.

My brother had a Mondeo Titanium X with a recurring, annoying dash problem. He had no help from Ford but found such an expert who had come up with a fix for the random electronic speedo error's he was suffering.

Peter, just had a thought, you haven't changed any bulbs or electrical devices lately because if I remember correctly a small deviation from the expected resistance will send things haywire.
Also don't trust any chinese made bulbs they may not be compatible , they also generate a lot of electrical noise.

David Byrne

many thanks John - I'll let Williams know, and hopefully they can fix it.

I guess Morgan bought a job lot of Mini Cooper headlamps in 2007, with wiring - so my 2017/8 build car has 15 year old wiring in places.

Will

Had the friendly little “ bulb failure” message again today. Checked all lights- all good. Only failure seems to be the warning. Hopefully when I fire it up tomorrow to drive to Stonor it will have gone.

It’s gone.

Til next time?

Stick some tape over the warning light................

Corroded bulb sockets or the lead solder blob on the end of the bulb is crusty ?

I’ll get those checked at the next service. Thanks for advice.

Tarka is back at Williams Morgan, I've no idea how long for as I've told them that I don't want to see it again until there are no errors in the electronic/electrical part of the car.
I also told Glindon (Sales) that I wasn't interested in looking at a Plus 4 until I had a firm valuation on the Plus 8.
Given the amount we are spending on the house at the moment I'm not certain I'm even in the market.

I hate to say it Peter but I do know exactly how you feel.

I had all sorts of electrical faults on the plus 8 yesterday, which cleared after resetting the main isolator.
Eventually traced the fault to the battery with a low cranking voltage. New battery fitted and all is well again.

Resetting the main isolator is my "Go To" first line of problem solving, sadly this hasn't helped this time.
The battery is 6 months old and holds 12.7V for 2 weeks without decay.
There is a problem, but diagnosis is proving difficult: I'll be speaking to Williams late on Monday to see if they have an answer.

Peter

Peter. I hope all this gets sorted very soon for you.

Williams have been working on the car since Friday, it is now Monday midday and they can't find the cause.
Worrying.

Worrying and expensive Peter - we all feel for you! Have another glass of wine

Sincere commiserations Peter, an unfortunate set of circumstances indeed.

I also have sympathies for the poor tec trying to resolve the intermittent fault on a system which is overly complex and much of which seems to be less than required for the operation of the vehicle. It seems such is the complexity of systems that swapping expensive modules/parts may be the "repair" process, as few if any know exactly the design of individual components within systems in order to accurately define a fault...It seems much depends on fault codes, followed by module replacement when perhaps there is no more than a dirty connection that may be disturbed and partly cleaned by the replacement process alone, and where a perfectly usable unit has been scrapped/put aside, as the replacement unit was apparently proven to have been an "effective" repair..!

I guess labour cost and customer inconvenience considerations may be part of all the above way of working, all of which for ME as a grumpy old man, is the more frustrating when the fault is in a monitoring system and there may be no fault in the system being monitored...?

That a fault in a monitoring system may cause an MOT failure (?) just adds to my frustrations.. I do hope that the issue is fully resolved by finding an actual fault, which these days seems may not be the case all too often..

Gosh! At what point does someone think that maybe it isn't such a good idea to keep replacing the part with identical parts that are gauranteed to fail in short order? Presumably that's the job of the customer when the warranty runs out.

Isn't that the definition of an idiot? Someone who keeps doing the same thing and expects a different result?

I'd be knocking at Simons door pronto, begging him to make me a decent rad!

It's ruddy simple if you have the parts.

Split half technique, isolate where the fault lies oneside or the other, they could replace the rear lamp canbus module - I take they have? if still the same replace the unit it interfaces with, if that fails it's either the loom between electronic control units the loom to the rear lights or the ligts themselves.

The problem is that the car was never designed for maintenance of these parts!

By a process of elimination, swapping parts, they have confirmed that a Canbus Control module is faulty.
£468.00 plus labour plus VAT.
This should have been sorted back in March......
I'm feeling a bit grumpy, but at least it is sorted.

So what do you think happens to all these leaking rads? Is there a large skip somewhere? Who is taking the warranty cost?

And now the brake recall. Are we two years into development yet?

That's great news Peter, despite the cost, delay and visits to the dealer at least you have a resolution.

Good news Peter, I'm glad you now have it sorted and can start enjoying the car again

Lets hope that is the end of the glitches for Tarka, get out and enjoy any weather at all

Christ on a bike. Still, glad it's sorted. Did anyone ever figure out why a CANBus module is needed for the rear lights in the first place?

Isn't it all part of the " why have such a big complicated wiring loom when you could have just one wire going round the car and each function has it's own computer signal and each item, such as brake light, has it's own computer signal receiver". This is sold to us as being less complicated and more reliable.....

Peter. Hopefully you can now enjoy the car.

Glad to hear they've got to the bottom of it Peter, now get out and enjoy it and stop all those thoughts of changing it!

I think it's to do with the 'faulty bulb' circuit - the systems ability to detect when a bulb is out. Not sure, but think so. Kind of ironic.

i had something similar on an old BMW K75 - a relay that provided a warning if a bulb was out. Relay failed, and knocked all the bulbs out. Luckily there was an easy bypass procedure on the t'interweb so that got binned.

Yes, and I completely get why modern cars more complex than a Morgan have to use CANBus to avoid the weight problems of having dedicated wiring for every component, but I suppose it's the price that shook me rigid.

Something like an Arduino Nano has got vastly more processing power than would be needed to manage the signal processing for just about any component on a car, and they have a consumer retail price of something around £10. Probably more like a couple of quid bought in bulk, maybe a bit more to pot them up in silicone or whatever to make them robust enough to go in a car. So it's a heck of a stretch to get from there to over £500. (actually just did a bit of Googling and you can buy Arduino-based CAN controllers for less than $15)

I'm surprised there aren't more enterprising electronics whizz-kids out there reverse-engineering the code for stuff like this and offering alternative solutions for out-of-warranty vehicles. Maybe there are but the main dealers don't want to get involved?

Glad you have a fully functioning Morgan again Peter...hope you have some great weather to enjoy all it has to offer very soon.

Thanks to all for support and good cheer during this painful time.
I was going to try Plus Six when I pick the car up on Saturday. It seems that I will not be doing so, now.

Be interesting to know if you would be “ allowed” to do a test drive?

Glad it looks like your electrical gremlins are sorted Peter

Perhaps the current CX issues may persuade you to keep Tarka

[quote=CooperMan]Glad it looks like your electrical gremlins are sorted Peter

Perhaps the current CX issues may persuade you to keep Tarka[/quote


Yes.

I can pay for a lot of repairs for the cost of an upgrade......!

Excellent thought Peter, keep that lovely plus 8, it's such an individual car.
Nick

Hopefully it's permanently fixed, fingers crossed. Now it's a case on putting on the miles and savouring all those elements of the Plus 8 you so enjoy, and with it the those doubts or concerns will disappear.

You could ask Williams for the bust BCU unit back, this would give you chance (at leisure) to trace the part number and hopefully come up with a competitive reserve source of a new box, just in case of future failure or worst still, future non availability

I'm currently toying with buying a BCU for the 3.7 Roadster for stock as the car is now out of production & the last ones out of warranty, especially as my pals Roadster sometimes has a bit of brain fart in the electronics occasionally

Would not be a bad idea to collect all the dead parts and offer them to Simon in case they can be used for diagnostics etc ?

Enjoy your drive back tomorrow Peter great looking weather forecast for next week too

Buy the good lady a or two for her unerring support role

Just my thoughts but isn't this a situation where MMC painted themselves into a corner. Having accepted the BMW engine and it's PCM and BCU, in order to accept some but not all of the electronic bell's and whistles they were obliged to include many of the modules associated with the car(s) the N62 engine variant was built for, particularly with automatic versions. This as an easier solution to the imponderables of programming them out or maybe obtaining type approval.

My son took me to Williams this morning.
My nice clean Plus 8 was waiting.
We chatted Lindon about the CX brake issue.
I left, after Andy had checked the brake lights, and set off back with him following.
About half way home he phoned me to tell me that they had stopped working. We carried on.
At home he told me that they were not intermittent, but very definitely off. We checked again at home. Nothing.

I'm furious, disappointed and various other emotions...
I will be speaking to Williams on Monday....they can collect the car.

Really sorry to hear what has happened I can understand your absolute annoyance and frustration. Hopefully its sorted out soon
regards
John

I hope a refund is offered on the bill you have just paid since the problem is clearly not resolved.


Last time I witnessed an issue like this ( a modern tractor with gearbox control issues ), it eventually transpired that the loom had been crushed on assembly creating an intermittent fault that only became apparent after several years use and long after the warranty had expired.

Sorry to hear that Peter.

Bad luck Peter, how frustrating.
Nick

Really bad luck Peter

sorry to hear this Peter - but please don't let it put you off the car

Good luck in getting it sorted......

James

How frustrating Peter, I hope there is a resolution soon for you.

Peter

If it helps, this week I got my AC Cobra back after a 3 year restoration which started out as an engine upgrade and then ended up as an upgrade of the engine, clutch, gearbox, driveshaft, diff, complete rebuild of suspension, upgrade of brakes and a complete re-trim.

The re-calibration of the 8 port fuel injection system took 6 months to resolve due to problems with the ECU, the throttle position sensor and availability of a chassis dyno with the people of the appropriate experience.

I have now driven it 5 times and although I am still breaking the car in am very pleased with the way it is going - other than I have 5 little pools of oil underneath the rear nearside shock absorber.

The car is back up on axle stands waiting for a replacement shock absorber which is very frustrating after 3 years and a very significant spend - but I really like the car and can't see what else could replace it. Sometimes you just need to grit your teeth and keep moving forward as, will anything else put the same smile on your face when it is all going well ?

By the sound if this Peter, you need to find a specialist Auto Electrician. The complexity may be beyond even the dealer group.

Agreed as already suggested here earlier in this thread!

That's a bugger. I'm with Dave and Richard, this looks like a CAN electronics problem rather than a Morgan or car problem.

Jeez, I am really sorry to read that your issues are not resolved Peter, one thing is for sure they can be and will be if you are determined enough to go the distance. I can only imagine how frustrated you must be but we are all rooting for you. I have no experience with modern automotive electronics and even less patience with them or the average fault finding and repair processes, but it would seem that swapping modules is not sorting it out, thus a wire by wire loom check by an auto electrical specialist as has already been suggested may put an end to this most unfortunate situation..

I seem to remember Lorne has issues with the wiring on his +8 that turned out to be caused by the point of a screw entering the harness and creating issues. Though perhaps the problem is coincidental perhaps caused by the brake light switch going faulty. Given the possible disturbance of the kit involved it may just be that something has been disturbed thus no big issue to resolve..?

Hope you can get it resolved soon Peter.

Chaffed loom is my suspicion, grounding out the unit to the module further up the line

Williams service department has referred the problem to Morgan, they will collect the car when they get a replay from MMC. It is possible the car will go straight to Malvern.
Job 1 is to get the car roadworthy.
Job 2 is to decide what to do with it.

I'd be thinking about a CX PlusFour... not for now. I might go Time Travelling and go back to a Trad.

That sounds like a good plan for the remedial action.

There are some beauties out there at the moment to ponder..

There has been some progress, of sorts...

MMC asked for photos of the wiring to the back of the OBD socket, which have been sent, but I've no real reason why they should want them.A week later there has not been any response from MMC. It seems they are a bit preoccupied with changing brake master cylinders on the CX cars. The summer will likely be over before we get to use the car again....

This system failure frustrates me greatly, and is so unlike the self reliance expected of Morgan owners or repair services available to them in times past..?

To be entirely dependant on the MMC, their processes and dealerships to resolve an electrical issue and tied into that scheme by way of guarantee expectations and resolutions seems none too efficient... If the issue is related to the operation of lighting, lights ned not to be electronically controlled..? I would think that there are ways and means to have lights operating on a temporary basis by simple effective and entirely reliable means to permit usage of a Morgan until the MMC resources might think of a repair process for systems they seem not to understand well enough to provide a fix for within a reasonable timespan.

As for whatever legislative processes might inhibit that which otherwise might seem to be a logical option I am left to imagine... What a sad state of affairs...?

I do hope to read that you are able to return to enjoying your Morgan ASAP along with whatever Summer we may have left in store..

Hot News: Williams have received a plan from MMC to track down my errant electrons. The car goes back to Williams next week.
There is a rider from MMC.... If the plan doesn't work then the car goes back to MMC!

I've told Williams that I do not want to see Tarka again until here electrons are fully controlled and showing total obedience.

This thread started because the battery wouldn't stay charged. It does now, tonight after sitting in the garage since 26th June the battery measures 12.2v!

Peter, you could still have an issue, my chart on the wall reminds me 12.2 is only 50% charged, I'd be looking for 12.5 to 12.65 to be happier (sorry)

Sorry to hear this...

JEEZ...At this stage of the "game" I would have been loking for a detailed explanation of the fault found and "repair" process. If no fault found then replacement of components in the hope it will be resolved seems the only option.. They MUST fix it, or find someone who can... I do wonder just how difficult it could possibly be...?

If they've replaced the component modules without success then it's got to be in the only other part of the system - the wires that link them up or the connections themselves. I believe (although I can't remember when or how I learned this so I might have dreamt it) that some modern automobile electronics diagnostic kit has the ability to see whether a wire has a full or partial short to ground and can tell exactly how far along the length of wire it is.

We had some problems with the wiring on our Landy a few years ago, the garage immediately called in a mobile electrical specialist who found and fixed the fault in less than an hour. His time was expensive per hour but as the garage said, they could have been searching for hours before they found it. It was caused by chafing and was invisible to the naked eye.

I think there is a plan of action in place George involving Williams and MMC, the holding factor is the CX issues I believe.

The post that Gary is quoting is an old one tbf 11th June, but he enjoys stirring things for MMC

The suspect module has been changed. It worked for a while... so a chafed wire does sound probable. We need to find out as these cars age faults appear; Tarka was built in 2013 and has run 46,026 miles to date so is one of the older Plus 8s and there are not many with that sort of mileage. This sort of data communication faut may appear on other older Plus 8s.

Peter,
I'm so sorry to hear this. I do worry about the electrics in Belle for similar reasons

Your experience will certainly make people think twice before jumping in this 2015 with 45,000 mile Speedster as lovely as it is.

I suspect that on our Roadsters John, MMC accepted a greater degree of Ford electronic wisdom than on other models. The consequence being greater reliability than offered by home brewed hybrid systems. They also wisely chose to limit CANBUS to the essentials and not let light failure be under its control.

With sunlight at the right angle you can see behind main (Mustang) instruments a large number of notification icons that simply aren't connected, so far less to worry about

That is true Richard.

Day three of round three in the hunt for the lost electrons and still no news.
Anyone care to place a bet on when I see the car back, working?
My somewhat cynical estimate is 1 September...

Sorry to hear it Peter. I do know how you feel as the Coupe spent extended periods on holiday in Malvern.

Well the Coupe goes to Williams on monday to be recommissioned. I am not looking forward to the call saying "we have found......."

Alistair, I remember your regular trips to Malvern...
it will be good to have the car recommissioned. I enjoyed the drive in it, which was largely the cause of my move from the Trad side to the Plus 8!
These cars are demanding of much love, attention and money, but give in return a very special relationship...

So I went out to the garage this evening to get the Coupe out of the garage and give it a bath before it went off.

Sitting on the trickle charger.

Did it start, did it b____y

Back to the old routine.

So one Noco GBX55 on order from amazon for friday. When the tyres on the turbo sofa are being changed tomorrow morning the battery is going back under warranty as Halfords is next to Kwik-Fit.

Life with these things is never easy is it.

Bah humbug.

Blocks - good luck tomorrow.

Alistair- I hope you get the machine back to what it ought to be doing with as little pain as possible.

Latest update from Williams...
Morgan has given them a list of connections to check for a specific voltage. The report back will go to Morgan later today.
MMC will respond by either telling Williams what to do, of tell them to bring the car up to Malvern.

Oh yes, and the insurance is due on he Morgan this week: £542.84 from Gott and Wynn, slightly irritating when I cannot use the car...!!

Looks a reasonable insurance renewal though Peter, considering how special that era of Aero Plus 8 is

Agreed, no quibbles: it is less than the road tax!!
The Mercedes and the Tesla together cost about the same!!

Well, the car has to go back to Malvern, the data sent by Williams to Morgan doesn't match up with what MMC say it should be.
As MMC has a week off next week the cr will remain at Williams until early August.

Iwonder when I'll see it gain and I am slightly concerned what the bill will be. I hope I don't have to sell it to pay for the work: that would insult to injury.

It might be parked next to the Coupe Peter. Distract yourself with some hot hatchback baiting in the Tesla. There are always a few muppets doing roundabout racing in Basingrad.

Williams said the steering problems on the Coupe were a seized Universal Joint at the base of the column as opposed to anything worse, good news for a change, I was expecting to need a new rack or some such.

Really sorry to hear how things are progressing, at least there appears to be some progress, if only narrowing down the areas of non conformance/outside of limits. It will be interesting to understand whether these faults are caused by degradation/ age or poor build quality to begin with eg trapped wires. Many wiring harnesses are biodegradable these days, so over time they breakdown and cause all sorts of electrical gremlins. I hope it turns out to be something quite simple and easy to fix.

Its amazing how the electrical supply is so critical to car operating systems these days. Today I learnt the wife's Mercedes auto gearbox speed sensor and control unit needs to be replaced, ok but a little surprised at only 34k miles. But in amongst the error messages my battery appears not to generate enough power for the gearbox speed sensor, so looks like a new battery as well is needed! I never thought my battery may influence the operating of the Mercedes gearbox. We live and learn.

I read Autocar every week, but increasingly the cars they talk about and review do nothing for me, it is all EV and PHEV.
I'm simply uninterested.
Time to stop the subscription, I think,

Or take up something more interesting, like fishing maybe.....

For goodness sake NO, he may bag all the best bits of water.

No, I'm not into getting cold and wet on the bank of a lake.....
I sit in my attic workplace and build things like this....



W3760, Spitfire Vb.

How many of you knew that in 1943 4 spitfires were fitted with floats to be part of a subsequently aborted raid into the Greek held Dodecanese Islands off the Turkish coast?
By all accounts they performed better than expected!

Classic bit of aeronautical reverse-engineering.
R.J. Mitchell's Supermarine S.6B (inspiration for his Spitfire) won the Schneider Tropy on 13th September 1931, piloted by Flt. Lt. John Boothman. My Dad (as a young lad) saw the race off the Solent at Calshot. Now that would've been something to have witnessed.
(Excellent bit of model-making Peter !)

Always seemed incongruous to me that a world speed record set with a beautifully streamlined aircraft powered by what was to become the most famous aircraft piston engine would also be dragging (literally) along a pair of huge floats

Back on Track, Tarka is sat outside the Aero Racing and Parts Department and has not been moved under its own power since the 8th. That is a week.
The battery is down to 12v, so soon it will not start.
Not impressed.

Look on the bright side Peter, it will give you more time to save up before paying the bill

Ouch, think you just fell off the christmas card list.

Good luck with this, that is not impressive service as your problem appeared long before the recent CX issues I believe.
You have demonstrated far more patience than I would have and I am known for my capacity in that area.

Peter, I can give you the text of a good email to send in. Probably won't get you anywhere but it will vent a lot of steam.

Thanks, but no thanks... I'll have another word with Steve, but he no longer has the absolute authority he once did. MMC is becoming corporate and we both know what that leads to.

I think the timing is significant - it's probably all hands to the pumps to get the CX brake fixes done, and everything else has had to go on the back burner. Problem when you have such a small workforce - you just don't have the resources to reploy staff.

For every irate customer who's work is not being done, there is an equally irate CX owner screaming for his car back. They're between a rock and a hard place.

I

TBM, emotionally I understand what you are saying but in truth it makes little sense to me from a business perspective? (Not meant in a rude way)
It's a bit like saying I will resolve the PlusSix before the PlusFour, that is not the right question to ask to my eyes.
In truth the crux of the issue remains volume not order?

Given that the CX repairs should be consistent it would be sensible to get some contract labour from local sources (certified) and run a line with some permanent staff running QA and training for it. This means more staff I hear you say? The total number of hours spent on the two workloads is identical but then you are servicing both queues quicker. The stuff that needs more experience and Morgan focus needs the long term staff. A brake unit is a brake unit in terms of doing the swap, ditto radiator, mechanics are pretty good at learning new process and cars. In some ways I would expect this to improve the QA aspect as both parties would be paying more attention.

By running a single tasking approach you just P off both queues and possibly impact production as well. Maybe they have already done this and we don't know but it does feel like a bottleneck is occurring. I know when the Coupe went for it's factory holidays it was often a couple of months at a time and it drove me mental that this was acceptable for a customer in their minds. It certainly changed my opinion of being a member of the Morgan Family. If it had been any other car I would have binned it.

I would love to see the budget for "warranty claims" in the P&L. If someone from Toyota was around they would take a fit.

It does appear they maybe lacking a little bit of critical path analysis, not helped by the work being undertaken over the traditional holiday period which may squeeze available resources even further. It maybe fair to assume/presume their planning mind set and the resultant productionisation of the resolution is probably also conditioned by the low volumes of unit manufacture they normally experience to carry out the necessary works and the possibility of restrictions on the availability of suitable work space. I don't envy them the task, they might well be backed up with cars in various stages of production awaiting the fix, not helping them.

It was purely supposition on my part. They are probably doing all work still but just spreading it round a bit thinner (mechanic spends 40% of time on new builds, 30% or time on CX brakes, and 30% on other work etc). There are about 250 employees at Morgan - by the time you take out office staff, designers, woodworkers, panel beaters, upholsterers etc it probably leaves about 3 blokes to do the brakes and all the other snags.

A good idea to get some contract staff in, but as John says, there would not be a surfit of available short term certified contract labour in the West Midlands, over the summer holiday period. You might be able to get that 3 Morgan staff up to 5

All sounds good on paper but the reality is bringing in external labour requiring training, is not an option for them when expediancy of CX fix is concerned.

I was told that eighty hands on staff are being used to work through the CX issue, achieved with much re-deployment. Not sure what normal assembly staffing is but it must represent a majority of this part of workforce available during school holiday period. Production can be put on hold other than completing cars on the line to gain space. Remember they have an eight year buffer before they reach the build delays of the 70's

It follows with no surprise that everything else requiring labour will be on the back burner.

yeah, but... there'll be a subset of "all hands" at Morgan who can diagnose an electrical problem on a 2014 Aero Plus 8 - including probably the person who put the wires in in the first place.
Their time would be best spent fixing a customer's car as a priority over working on a Plus Six or Four, which there will be many people able to work on.

& you'd have thought they'd have prioritised it, and cleared space to look at it within a day or so of the car arriving from Williams.

& you'd have thought that after Williams had investigated, in conversation with the factory, that there would be an agreed plan to get to the bottom of the problem. Rather than chasing down a mystery & intermittent fault, you wouldn't be surprised if the solution was to replace the wiring to the rear of the car. Which might also be the quickest (& least expensive) way to fix it.

I'm watching this unfold in horror...
My Aero needs to go back to the factory to put the paint on properly. Williams' paint guy has marked up faults and sent pics to the factory. I've taken the car to them so that they can confirm the dealer's opinion (a 400 mile round trip!). The last suggestion was that when I bring the car back to them we'll agree what should be done. I should leave them the car with no timetable for its return. And of course they don't do loan cars.

Italics are where Morgan aren't behaving like a C21 business that cares about its customers and their reputation.

Will

Not wanting to rain on your sunny day - The Coupe was back three times for the paint. None were quick. I don't mean that to intimate they are bad at their job or don't care, just that it bubbled time and time again.

You are right to get a contact and set an expectation as it is only reasonable.

I doubt the painting bloke is spannering rads and brakes. If he is my comment w.r.t. contract labour stands! Any certified BMW/MG/Dacia mechanic can do the job once shown the ropes. They are not designing it.

(sigh) ah, well, that's not a surprise it took several goes.

At least I have the car for the summer... service & MOT are due October, so it'll likely spend the winter months in Malvern.

Some positive news...
My GTE Tracker shows that today, at just after 2pm my car was driven from the front of the site, down between the spray shed and the Aero Shed to the back of the Servicing building.
It moved about for much of the aft
This is the journey...



Does this mean that it will receive some attention?

Looks like they tried to hide it in the neighbours back garden at one point.

In all seriousness, hope you get a satisfactory solution, and soon!

Peter, at least it's now inside under cover and out of this torrential rain we're having

That has got to be good news
Lets hope it is fixed for good very soon....

An interesting post Alistair amongst a range of another commentary on this sad saga....

Tarker was taken out for an 8 mile run, and reached a speed of 55mph. The amount of data that the tracker collects and stores is amazing.
About 5 mins into the first run I got a call from GTE to tell me the car had moved out of the factory yard and was that OK. I told the call handler to put a note on the system allowing any use within 10 miles of the factory.

Anyway, the car is getting attention.

The factory (Mark) called me to say that they have got the brake lights working, but are not really sure how as they did essentially what Williams did.
We have agreed that the car will be driven every day next week to see if the brake. lights remain functional.
Some what of a concern that the root cause has not been identified.

I have a rough recollection of the report of one of the then chairman of RR avation engine devision being questioned by an underling as to why he only ever seemed to fly in aircraft with four engines... Apparently the answer came back as " They don`t make aircraft with five dear boy."

Just as well Morgan don`t make aircraft given that which you typed Peter, as a repair and test process..!!!
Without a fault found or complete replacement of the whole system it seems like it is acceptable that the brake lights will operate untill the next time they fail, which could be within minutes of you accepting it back Peter..

I hope you get it back soon Peter. We still have the weather to enjoy the experience that makes these cars so different. It will also be interesting to hear your feedback.

I had a similar issue surrounding a failure to fix ages ago.

The S2 door was clicking on the hinge and a dealer tried to fix it for me. After a couple of attempts (which I was charged for) it ended up going back to the factory who did a full repair on it. Also charging me for the work they did. Did the dealer offer to refund the money spent for work that was not successful?

The difference between a dealer that gets promoted by customers and one that is never talked about is how it measures itself? If that dealer had come back to me and said "we were unable to fix it and so will not charge you for this" then it would show respect and consideration. I don't pay a garage to just spend time, I pay it to fix stuff, its a fine line sometimes. Especially with the "each car is unique" around Morgan's.

I seen a post on Facebook or Instagram recently of a t shirt that read " If Morgan made helicopters would you get in one?"
Can't seem to find it again but it did make me 😁

It is now more than a Month since I left Tarka at Williams, the last 2 weeks he as been at the factory. This week there was, up to yesterday, daily road testing. Today, nothing, other than the battery is disconnected. Could this mean that the brake lights have failed, again?
Anyway, I'll perhaps find out more next week.....
Will I get him back before the autumn sets in, properly?
I wonder what to do....

Thank goodness for the Porsche diversion....

Maybe battery disconnected for charging so that its ready to be returned to you in tip top condition. Can only hope!

Chin up Peter, generally the Autumn is much better for open top motoring, think of all the Wilts leaves you'll be kicking up at the rear!

This must be very frustrating and hope you get some good news soon.....

Its seems to becoming unfortunately a bit of a protracted saga, but this time apart also offers you the opportunity to reflect on exactly what you are missing, or what itch remains unscratched during the forced absence. I still don't understand why a good auto electrician using an Oscilloscope to pinpoint CAN Bus related issue, wiring fault finding/tracing cannot get to the bottom of this, if necessary rewiring as he goes to deal with any hidden trapped/frayed wires, poor connections there cant be that much wiring/electrical components involved!

John, that which you describe as a possible repair process requires a degree of understanding which seems beyond the culture of average engineering processes,as they have evolved to become during my last few decades or more in the workplace..?

It seems that the average of the workforce may have become de-skilled to some degree when compared to a time when full understanding of the design, manufacture, operation, maintenance and repair of anything was more understood by those who were tasked to ensure it kept on keeping on for as long as possible...?

That which came to become termed as an efficient repair processes, was more about replacing items rather than repairing them, and to bolt or plug in a replacement, takes considerably less understanding and skill, than to strip, te repair, rebuild and test the failed item of equipment..?

If manufacturing processes have been such that future component repair processes are not taken account of in the design stage, then sealed for life, glued down, perhaps even by robotic processes, makes it all the more difficult for humans to take it apart in order to diagnose possible routes to a repair process, let alone for them to be able to reassemble the kit to look good as new, having been forced into essentially ripping it apart to gain access to suspect componentry ..?

Dependant on the degree of sealing and possible disassembly required in any real attempt at a repair, the risk of the complication of customer expectations relative to the appearance of his machine once repairs have been completed, just adds a whole new level of complexity to the extent that the term uneconomical to repair seems perhaps next in line..?

One has only to look at any of the many reasons vehicles and machinery come to end up being written-off by insurance companies having been deemed to be uneconomical to repair...A small under bonnet sign of melted wiring and subsequent digital mayhem reported, can result in a machine with potential to provide many more years of service bing written-off... !

Such would seem to be the economics of this situation that those who have real skills would perhaps repair them, until legislation catches up and puts barriers in their way, perhaps to some degree adding to the process of deskilling the population, while politicians and the financial services industry carry on regardless...?

Well what else would you expect a selective Luddite to type...

Whilst they may not be in a position to strip and repair a component they should be able to detect if the component is operating within specification and whether the necessary electrical feed , contacts and appropriate earthing remain within tolerances and hopefully isolate the area requiring work/replacement. I just found it interesting that taking a car for a regular drive maybe part of the fault finding, maybe they have some form of monitoring of the components in situ, to try and capture the fault. If not I was kind of scratching my head as to the diagnosis a fitter could give from just a test drive alone, unless the system is producing some kind of fault code.

I do tend to agree that in some ways we have simplified things but in others eg in my profession the advent of automation and computerisation has given greater scope for in-depth scrutiny and producing a better quality product more quickly whilst removing time consuming administrative tasks, freeing up resource to focus more on using the information (rather than time spent focusing on producing the information) requiring a much more demanding skill set than previously.

Remember the Catherine Tate sketches, reflecting on modern life:”Computer says No…”!

Repairability should be the cornerstone of a green agenda, not rampant consumerism due to prematurely failed unnecessary tech. In all machinery, not just cars.

Could the fix not just be go back to basics? If the fancy computer / canbus can’t do it could you simply fit a brake switch on the pedal / handbrake and wire it to the fuse box and the rear brake lights?

Or does the computer stop you doing that?

I was thinking exactly this Peter. Wouldn't it be easier to just work round it. I had a client who had mice attack her two month old 4*4 thing and it was a write off. The wiring loom damage was just too difficult to repair. So maybe just wire a seperate circuit just for those lights...?
Nick

In the IT industry there is an organisation called ifixit.com which tears down new toys and gives them ratings for reparability etc. All I can say is that it is not impressive. It is good that the information is out there but it does not change how the vendors work. If anything they are getting more dense and more complex (which means irreparable) in order to try and win. There is no risk, cost or enforcement and so no desire to improve.

Flyfisher and nickW, you seem to be exhibiting a degree of Trad Mog thinking there.... To fit a new brake light switch perhaps in a less vulnerable position, run a wire or two here and there, would more than likely put an end to a brake light issue. Though just think of all the rules, regs and lawyers that could be involved IF this that or the other.. Dependant on whatever set of "IF" circumstances might have arisen, and whether attributable or not to the unotherised modification when the vehicle is inspected... Talk of being trapped by technology!!! My Luddite slip showing again..

Few "inspectors" will have a clue as to what Morgan wiring should be like, and we know that even on the Trads there are differences between cars built around the same time.

I would have gone the 12v bespoke route a long time ago. Done properly it can be blended with the existing wiring. proper colour codes, wrapped loom, and so on. A small additional fusebox fed from the battery, a switch on the pedal. Job done.

Yep the argument that you can’t differ from factory dosent stand up, think of the number of cars that have been rebuilt at home, they are still fully insured and it is a fact of life for cars that they will be repaired and parts replaced / improved without issues

Also given the newness of the car the complete failure of the brake lights without it simply being a bulb, could that make it subject to a formal recall once a solution is found?

To be honest, I haven't dared to pronounce this solution, but it seems to me to be the best way, if I remember correctly, that subsequent cars in the series had a slightly different electrical circuit anyway? So it is a one off circuit and it keeps a one off circuit after changing it?

Not to sound pretentious, but here is a case where a very primitive brake light circuit has been turned into rocket science. Except that no one can make this rocket fly any longer. So stay grounded and solder some wires to a push-button switch. The fact that this problem has already taken three months is actually a scandal. If, due to legal circumstances, the factory does not dare to solve it primitively, then they should declare that it is an interim solution...until the authentic solution is found. And maybe the interim solution will last 30 years or more. If the CanBus should grumble, could it not easily be fooled and an independent second push-button switch could be used and comparable resistors to the R of the rear lights could be connected to the wire ends instead of the rear lights?

In the case of the brake lights I have to agree with the idea of simplifying up to a point If confidence is lost in a repair technique.

I suspect in the strict sense of the law, as in construction and use etc. that such modifications perhaps risk being illegal. As to who might notice, I also agree, only someone determined to do so and for a very specific reason would ever be likely to dig that deep.

Slightly off the original topic... I think there might be quite a difference between the construction of a Trad and that of a CX in terms of home rebuild possibilities..?

Even amongst Trads given the span of their production, there would seem to be considerable differences in the degree of complexity relative to a rebuild, thinking in terms of the type approval regs that are in play relative to the date of first registration in the UK..?

Trads being in production for many decades before the govt even dreamt up the idea of Type approval regs etc. etc. etc. Once carbs were superseded by EFI, followed on by cats, MOT testing/passing could become a tad more onerous. With emission testing in mind, restoring an old Trad Morgan to meet the regs could be a more expensive business if it fell into the category where had to comply with later and stricter emission legislation..?

Bottom line I do hope Peter`s car is returned fault free and remains that way for many a year.

What I do not understand is how the maker cannot resolve it quickly ?

Whilst a simple bypass with direct wiring of brake circuit may be tempting, on modern cars it's not just the brake lights that need to respond to brake use. Cruise control if fitted, engine management and the full powertrain need to be aware as well particularly with an auto box.

I don't regard such a mod as an issue of legality so much as ensuring the car as a whole continues to perform as intended, although accept the two may be related.

Although my Roadster thankfully employs the usual trad mechanical brake switch near pedal pivot, providing the live switched feed direct to brake lights, its also sent to the powertrain control module (PCM), basically an ECU that covers both engine and transmission.

In this case MMC could perhaps make an interims solution in terms of a home rebuild possibility. I fully agree with your last sentence, George

So do I.

Interesting thought....

I've been reading the training manual for dealers for the 2017 Porsche 718.
If we think the Aeros have a complex electronic system, read this...

"9.2 Network topology
Various data bus systems (CAN 500 kBit/s, LIN 20 kBit/s, MOST 150 MBit/s) are
used in the network of the 718 Boxster/S MY17. The gateway control unit serves as
a central linking element and allows data exchange as well as protocol-dependent
translation of communication between the various networks and bus technologies".

Remember, the 718 was introduced in late 2016 as a 2017 Model Year car, so it is 6 to 7 year old technology.
The CX cars will be just as bad.
The days of DIY repairing are over.

No different to my smart Peter, multiple busses communicating the various bits of kit all pretty standard stuff for modern cars.

Cars use serial transmission protocols to reduce the number of wires used in harnesses, not exactly rocket science, aircraft operate along similar lines, data packets sent down the wire effectively similar in manner as to how things are sent back and forth in the Internet and WiFi etc.

It is what it is, it's what helps modern cars perform as they do.

A lot of folks bemoan the complexity but without it we'd all be driving vehicles of 20-30 years ago.

Manufacturers service engineers are only taught to 1st and 2nd line servicing.

Morgan adopting other manufacturers systems rather than designing from the ground up 100% leaves them a little vulnerable to the foibles of the cobbled together nature of what is going on when things go wrong.

It's just done on a different level.

Instead of pulling a plug and seeing something go dark (Lucas) or swapping a part which costs a fiver so you happen to have it lying around you now plug in a £2k rugged laptop with £8k/year subscription software linked to the cloudything and look for big part numbers with big prices and swap them at the instruction of the computer.

I am getting this sensation that only the 12 year olds coming into the workplace will be able to do things in the future. If this cloud thing goes wrong the world (over-privileged EU and NA zone) is going to come to a halt.

Mark Baldwin at MMC has e-mailed me to report that over a week of use the brake lights have not faulted and so he considers the problem resolved.
Good News indeed: I now need to sort out collection of the car, and paying for the work!

Peter

Speaking of which, the Russian Navy has been acting very strangely on the sea off Ireland, it has repeatedly been hovering over the transatlantic cables. . Apparently the Russian Navy has specialist ships that could do untold interruption to these key communication lines.

That is good news Peter

Good news Peter.

Good news Peter - as long as the price for the work ist bearable...

Just being curious, did MMC say what defect they found and what replacement parts or methods they used to fix it?

Yes, this would be very interesting to know. In the absence of any detail one is tempted to assume that they just jiggled a few things around and it started working again (ie no real fix). I'm sure they did more than this though, if it's been working ok for a week now.

Great news indeed. Hoping it is a permanent fix.
Enjoy the return of your pride & joy.... ,

Peter I am guessing you are aware the Salisbury train goes directly past Williams and then onto Malvern (central not link). It's two carriage low speed chuffer through Bristol Parkway so it takes a bit of time and you need to pack your own thermos etc but it is quite relaxing and the scenery is lovely.

I used it when I collected the Coupe from Williams.

Alistair,

I've used that service multiple times, going to both Williams and on to Morgan. Recent timetable changes mean that there is only one direct service a day, but at least the old "Bus Like" units have been replaced by 166 Series 3 car units.
The views are wonderful, but with 3 hours and 24 minutes to enjoy it there needs to be a good distraction!
It isn't cheap...£54.00 one way.

... & then there's the £50 from Bath to Williams - it takes a good hour off the journey, and the roulette of finding a cab at Yate

:-)

I'll collect Tarka on Wednesday 14th.
I'll get the 9.02 from Salisbury via almost everywhere, but no changes, arriving at 12:26. I can then walk over to MMC, get lunch in the canteen and pick up the car.
If I get away by 2pm I should be home by 5pm.The forecast is good, so it should be a nice drive.

With fingers crossed that this will being this long thread to a close and the electrons will stay where they are supposed to be.

Great news Peter, enjoy the drive and I trust that all of your electrons will be present and continue to remain so!

+1

I had an Electron of my own (actually an Electron Minor) in c.1971. Wonderfully eccentric "kit car" with a Standard Ten engine. I drove it from West London to Cornwall (and back) several times, so no lost Electrons for me......but the brakes occasionally vanished.

Good luck and enjoy the trip back home with Tarka