Talk Morgan

More Lost Electrons

Posted By: Peter J

More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 02:09 PM

After seemingly sorting out the lack of any lights at the back of the car now just the brake lights, all 3, are dead. Everything else is working.
The first date I can get it to Williams is May 27th.
I'll take the round rear cover off to see if there is anything obvious, like a loose connector block or earth, but if not then it is one of the car controllers, the one at the back.

I'm getting fed up with driving up to Williams and back... and not driving anywhere else.
A CX PlusFour suddenly seems interesting again.


But not at £82,000.... crazy3

Posted By: Neilda

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 02:22 PM

All part of the ownership experience. I've only done 1500 miles between MOT's in mine and paid over £4k to have some wrongs righted. Meanwhile the Tesla has done 20,000 miles and hasn't cost a penny in repairs, servicing, road tax or anything other than volts. Still glad to have the Morgan, but they're not cheap! smile
Posted By: TheCustomer

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 03:14 PM

I hear you Peter

Tom @Williams looked at and couldn't find fault with my headlights, which flicker off if I hit a bump. And then come back on after a moment. It's movement that does it... I've managed to hit them off and stop at traffic lights with the headlights off.

If it's not been fixed the first time I'm not confident that the next time the car's at Williams it'll be fixed, so I'll likely see if I can get the factory to look at it when it's there to have the paint put on properly.

Will
Posted By: asbojohn

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 03:55 PM

Got mine back from a factory service a couple of weeks back. Similar issue with the lights that now seems to have been fixed.
Posted By: PJC

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 04:08 PM

I thought I'd fixed my electric window issue after several months of working perfectly - starter the car a few days ago and bingo - no windows operating and all it did was sat in the garage for a week or so! swear
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 04:53 PM

So the average cost between Morgan and Tesla is about normal?
Posted By: taffy

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 05:04 PM

Maybe I am 100% on the wrong foot but since I have been running a small dehumidifier in the garage I have not had any electrical issues - the main one when the engine just shuts down completely. I also had intermittent bulb "failure's" which werent broken bulbs or fuses. I think, like a lot of people have pointed out, it is an issue of the earthing connections and once they get even slightly moist then all hell breaks out!
Anyway I could be wrong!
T
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
After seemingly sorting out the lack of any lights at the back of the car now just the brake lights, all 3, are dead. Everything else is working.
The first date I can get it to Williams is May 27th.
I'll take the round rear cover off to see if there is anything obvious, like a loose connector block or earth, but if not then it is one of the car controllers, the one at the back.

I'm getting fed up with driving up to Williams and back... and not driving anywhere else.
A CX PlusFour suddenly seems interesting again.


But not at £82,000.... crazy3


Peter, you may get bored of repairs on the CX too, I know of a 6 on it's third radiator, a 4 that's had five and another waiting for its forth
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 05:45 PM

I feel your pain - this is rotten luck this time of year - good luck with the fix.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 04/05/22 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
After seemingly sorting out the lack of any lights at the back of the car now just the brake lights, all 3, are dead. Everything else is working.
The first date I can get it to Williams is May 27th.
I'll take the round rear cover off to see if there is anything obvious, like a loose connector block or earth, but if not then it is one of the car controllers, the one at the back.

I'm getting fed up with driving up to Williams and back... and not driving anywhere else.
A CX PlusFour suddenly seems interesting again.


But not at £82,000.... crazy3


Can only add Peter that electrical faults that "dissapear" after a bit of wire wiggling or re-make of connectors have a strong habit of re-appearing. For the most part isolating a faulty component and replacing it offers a greater likelihood of a long term fix.
Posted By: PJC

Re: More Lost Electrons - 05/05/22 06:04 AM

Richard - that makes a lot of sense, I spent a lot of time wiggling a lot of wire only for the window issue to disappear for several months and only two weeks after putting all the door panels back on (no more wiggling) and the window fuse fails again! Maybe a stripped out, even lighter, Aero is the way to go!
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 05/05/22 07:04 AM

My lights regularly show the “ bulb failure” icon. I check the lights- and all seem to be ok? A weird one is when, on start up, the telltale for full beam lights up. 10 mins later, the telltale fails when on full beam? Full beam is fine.

Occasionally, the headlights don’t work- so having been in IT for years. I use the standard “stop- turn it off- take the key out- count to ten” fix. And it mainly fires up.

Hopefully I will be showing the car at The Stonor Supercar and Classic show later in the month. I’ll have to get it cleaned though!!
Posted By: TheCustomer

Re: More Lost Electrons - 05/05/22 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by asbojohn
Got mine back from a factory service a couple of weeks back. Similar issue with the lights that now seems to have been fixed.


ah, is that Peter's rear lights issue, or my flickering headlamps issue?!

Will
Posted By: TheCustomer

Re: More Lost Electrons - 05/05/22 09:00 AM

oh, and... if I don't keep the screenwash topped up I get an orange engine warning light
(only on a Morgan!)

Will
Posted By: Alistair

Re: More Lost Electrons - 05/05/22 09:24 AM

Will

In the earlier cars the screen wash tubes up near the squirters and behind the dash used to be a casual fit. Often they would come loose and water would be able to just leak out behind the dash. The usual introduction of a LUCAS quality experience would then occur with random lights/switches. I did also get a comment that removal and re-installation of the dash with all the tight cabling can disturb it and slack them off. It might be worth getting a small person and dangling them upside down in the footwell then running the washers and inspecting the state of them afterwards ?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 11:19 AM

Replacing the switch on the brake pedal wasn't the answer.
My friendly BMW technician said that it is possible that the brake light switch is associated with the master cylinder or the ABS unit.

I'm taking the car back to Williams again on 26th, and it will stay there until it is fixed.
I beginning to tire of this game, the costs and the uncertainty....the nagging what happens next thoughts. And the train ride from Salisbury to Yate.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 02:54 PM

This is all pretty depressing stuff to read, and you guys have my sympathies, I can only imagine how galling it must be to spend an awful lot of money on a car which simply isn't reliable. I'm wondering whether there's a case to be made for ruggedising the entire electrical system somehow - but even if you could, it wouldn't help the mechanical issues.

Of course, the obvious (but maybe not so palatable) answer is not to buy a recent Morgan, or anything built on a CX platform, and simply stick with the older stuff. Rugged, simple, easy to work on and easy to fix, perfectly performant enough for most purposes, cheap to run and still fun to drive?
Posted By: asbojohn

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by TheCustomer
Originally Posted by asbojohn
Got mine back from a factory service a couple of weeks back. Similar issue with the lights that now seems to have been fixed.


ah, is that Peter's rear lights issue, or my flickering headlamps issue?!

Will


Your problem seems some interna breaks on the wiring.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 04:56 PM

Electro mechanically the car is a +10 year old 45,000 mile E36 Series BMW 3 series....complicated by Morgan's value engineered CANBUS controllers from Volvo that are supposed to make the BMW and Morgan bits communicate.
So I think there will be periods of electrical incontinence... It is the price I have to pay for owning a hand built classic that whilst costing a bit to keep in good order isn't depreciating and when on form is simply a joy to drive....

I keep thinking a Plus Four would make sense but would it?
Posted By: Luddite

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 05:00 PM

Sorry to read of your brake light issue Peter. My expectation of a brake light circuit would be that it should be of a robust and simple design with no electronics involved thus simple to trace and rectify any fault. The switch would seem the most likely fail point, after that fuse(s) and loose/dirty connections... For sure intermittent faults are a real pain, though the fault must be found and proven to be repaired to restore any faith in the system.. ?
Good luck.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 05:07 PM

The brake lights don't work... but I don't get a "bulb failure" warning, which should happen if a bulb fails.
So it isn't simple.
There are no obvious fuses for the brake lights.

There are strange things happening here... The Prince of Darkness seems to be at large.
Posted By: Luddite

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 05:20 PM

Sorry Peter, I do not know the operation of bulb fail monitoring aspect of the circuit. My expectation would be that as brakes are a safety circuit that any monitoring of their operation would not affect their primary function, and that monitoring would be a secondary and seperate part of the circuit that should be unable to affect the primary function.... But then I have been wrong before, and more than once... blush
Posted By: B3MOG

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 09:22 PM

Peter, I may be completely wrong here but when I was in industry when canbus systems were popping up one of the problems I found was that at the end of the wiring cct (canbus) there is usually a small resistor in the cct that sometimes fails... of course it may all be different nowadays.


David Byrne
Posted By: Taffmog

Re: More Lost Electrons - 17/05/22 11:55 PM

Peter, just change your dealer......
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 18/05/22 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by B3MOG
Peter, I may be completely wrong here but when I was in industry when canbus systems were popping up one of the problems I found was that at the end of the wiring cct (canbus) there is usually a small resistor in the cct that sometimes fails... of course it may all be different nowadays.


David Byrne

That ties in with the Canbus on my Roadster David. On the topology schematic there are 120Ω terminator resistors on medium and high speed networks linking BCU, PCM and instrument cluster. Guessing these are to load the networks and hide any random transients that might otherwise errantly trigger something.

It also shows twisted pairs of interconnecting cables carrying high and low signals on each network, again designed to cancel out random inductions.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 18/05/22 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Taffmog
Peter, just change your dealer......

It might be the way to go Peter. Such an annoying random fault on a limited production run hybrid system is, pardon me for suggesting, seemingly beyond the pay grade for most if not all Morgan dealers. At this stage I would tempted to seek out a Canbus expert (easily said I know) and better spend money there.

My brother had a Mondeo Titanium X with a recurring, annoying dash problem. He had no help from Ford but found such an expert who had come up with a fix for the random electronic speedo error's he was suffering.
Posted By: B3MOG

Re: More Lost Electrons - 18/05/22 02:56 PM

Peter, just had a thought, you haven't changed any bulbs or electrical devices lately because if I remember correctly a small deviation from the expected resistance will send things haywire.
Also don't trust any chinese made bulbs they may not be compatible , they also generate a lot of electrical noise.

David Byrne
Posted By: TheCustomer

Re: More Lost Electrons - 18/05/22 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by asbojohn
Originally Posted by TheCustomer
Originally Posted by asbojohn
Got mine back from a factory service a couple of weeks back. Similar issue with the lights that now seems to have been fixed.


ah, is that Peter's rear lights issue, or my flickering headlamps issue?!

Will


Your problem seems some interna breaks on the wiring.





many thanks John - I'll let Williams know, and hopefully they can fix it.

I guess Morgan bought a job lot of Mini Cooper headlamps in 2007, with wiring - so my 2017/8 build car has 15 year old wiring in places.

Will
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 20/05/22 08:00 PM

Had the friendly little “ bulb failure” message again today. Checked all lights- all good. Only failure seems to be the warning. Hopefully when I fire it up tomorrow to drive to Stonor it will have gone.
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 21/05/22 10:37 AM

It’s gone.

Til next time?
Posted By: DaveW

Re: More Lost Electrons - 21/05/22 10:44 AM

Stick some tape over the warning light................
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: More Lost Electrons - 21/05/22 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by JB62
It’s gone.

Til next time?

Corroded bulb sockets or the lead solder blob on the end of the bulb is crusty ?
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 21/05/22 08:31 PM

I’ll get those checked at the next service. Thanks for advice.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 26/05/22 03:31 PM

Tarka is back at Williams Morgan, I've no idea how long for as I've told them that I don't want to see it again until there are no errors in the electronic/electrical part of the car.
I also told Glindon (Sales) that I wasn't interested in looking at a Plus 4 until I had a firm valuation on the Plus 8.
Given the amount we are spending on the house at the moment I'm not certain I'm even in the market.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: More Lost Electrons - 26/05/22 03:41 PM

I hate to say it Peter but I do know exactly how you feel.
Posted By: deano

Re: More Lost Electrons - 29/05/22 01:08 PM

I had all sorts of electrical faults on the plus 8 yesterday, which cleared after resetting the main isolator.
Eventually traced the fault to the battery with a low cranking voltage. New battery fitted and all is well again.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 29/05/22 06:02 PM

Resetting the main isolator is my "Go To" first line of problem solving, sadly this hasn't helped this time.
The battery is 6 months old and holds 12.7V for 2 weeks without decay.
There is a problem, but diagnosis is proving difficult: I'll be speaking to Williams late on Monday to see if they have an answer.

Peter
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 29/05/22 06:08 PM

Peter. I hope all this gets sorted very soon for you.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 30/05/22 02:26 PM

Williams have been working on the car since Friday, it is now Monday midday and they can't find the cause.
Worrying.
Posted By: PJC

Re: More Lost Electrons - 31/05/22 06:36 AM

Worrying and expensive Peter - we all feel for you! Have another glass of wine wine
Posted By: Luddite

Re: More Lost Electrons - 31/05/22 07:26 AM

Sincere commiserations Peter, an unfortunate set of circumstances indeed.

I also have sympathies for the poor tec trying to resolve the intermittent fault on a system which is overly complex and much of which seems to be less than required for the operation of the vehicle. It seems such is the complexity of systems that swapping expensive modules/parts may be the "repair" process, as few if any know exactly the design of individual components within systems in order to accurately define a fault...It seems much depends on fault codes, followed by module replacement when perhaps there is no more than a dirty connection that may be disturbed and partly cleaned by the replacement process alone, and where a perfectly usable unit has been scrapped/put aside, as the replacement unit was apparently proven to have been an "effective" repair..!

I guess labour cost and customer inconvenience considerations may be part of all the above way of working, all of which for ME as a grumpy old man, is the more frustrating when the fault is in a monitoring system and there may be no fault in the system being monitored...?

That a fault in a monitoring system may cause an MOT failure (?) just adds to my frustrations.. I do hope that the issue is fully resolved by finding an actual fault, which these days seems may not be the case all too often.. mad2 oldgit
Posted By: Bunny

Re: More Lost Electrons - 31/05/22 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by CooperMan
Peter, you may get bored of repairs on the CX too, I know of a 6 on it's third radiator, a 4 that's had five and another waiting for its forth

Gosh! At what point does someone think that maybe it isn't such a good idea to keep replacing the part with identical parts that are gauranteed to fail in short order? Presumably that's the job of the customer when the warranty runs out. doh
Posted By: TBM

Re: More Lost Electrons - 31/05/22 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Bunny
Originally Posted by CooperMan
Peter, you may get bored of repairs on the CX too, I know of a 6 on it's third radiator, a 4 that's had five and another waiting for its forth

Gosh! At what point does someone think that maybe it isn't such a good idea to keep replacing the part with identical parts that are gauranteed to fail in short order? Presumably that's the job of the customer when the warranty runs out. doh


Isn't that the definition of an idiot? Someone who keeps doing the same thing and expects a different result?

I'd be knocking at Simons door pronto, begging him to make me a decent rad!
Posted By: milligoon

Re: More Lost Electrons - 02/06/22 06:46 PM

It's ruddy simple if you have the parts.

Split half technique, isolate where the fault lies oneside or the other, they could replace the rear lamp canbus module - I take they have? if still the same replace the unit it interfaces with, if that fails it's either the loom between electronic control units the loom to the rear lights or the ligts themselves.

The problem is that the car was never designed for maintenance of these parts!
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 02:08 PM

By a process of elimination, swapping parts, they have confirmed that a Canbus Control module is faulty.
£468.00 plus labour plus VAT.
This should have been sorted back in March......
I'm feeling a bit grumpy, but at least it is sorted.
Posted By: DaveW

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 02:40 PM

So what do you think happens to all these leaking rads? Is there a large skip somewhere? Who is taking the warranty cost?

And now the brake recall. Are we two years into development yet?
Posted By: PJC

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 02:44 PM

That's great news Peter, despite the cost, delay and visits to the dealer at least you have a resolution.
Posted By: Craig Jezz

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 03:02 PM

Good news Peter, I'm glad you now have it sorted and can start enjoying the car again
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 03:04 PM

Lets hope that is the end of the glitches for Tarka, get out and enjoy any weather at all smile
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
£468.00 plus labour plus VAT.


Christ on a bike. Still, glad it's sorted. Did anyone ever figure out why a CANBus module is needed for the rear lights in the first place?
Posted By: nick w

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 04:51 PM

Isn't it all part of the " why have such a big complicated wiring loom when you could have just one wire going round the car and each function has it's own computer signal and each item, such as brake light, has it's own computer signal receiver". This is sold to us as being less complicated and more reliable.....
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 05:30 PM

Peter. Hopefully you can now enjoy the car.
Posted By: DavidR

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/06/22 07:17 PM

Glad to hear they've got to the bottom of it Peter, now get out and enjoy it and stop all those thoughts of changing it!
Posted By: Neilda

Re: More Lost Electrons - 09/06/22 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by Peter J
£468.00 plus labour plus VAT.


Christ on a bike. Still, glad it's sorted. Did anyone ever figure out why a CANBus module is needed for the rear lights in the first place?


I think it's to do with the 'faulty bulb' circuit - the systems ability to detect when a bulb is out. Not sure, but think so. Kind of ironic.
Posted By: TBM

Re: More Lost Electrons - 09/06/22 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Neilda
Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by Peter J
£468.00 plus labour plus VAT.


Christ on a bike. Still, glad it's sorted. Did anyone ever figure out why a CANBus module is needed for the rear lights in the first place?


I think it's to do with the 'faulty bulb' circuit - the systems ability to detect when a bulb is out. Not sure, but think so. Kind of ironic.



i had something similar on an old BMW K75 - a relay that provided a warning if a bulb was out. Relay failed, and knocked all the bulbs out. Luckily there was an easy bypass procedure on the t'interweb so that got binned.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 09/06/22 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Neilda

I think it's to do with the 'faulty bulb' circuit - the systems ability to detect when a bulb is out. Not sure, but think so. Kind of ironic.



Yes, and I completely get why modern cars more complex than a Morgan have to use CANBus to avoid the weight problems of having dedicated wiring for every component, but I suppose it's the price that shook me rigid.

Something like an Arduino Nano has got vastly more processing power than would be needed to manage the signal processing for just about any component on a car, and they have a consumer retail price of something around £10. Probably more like a couple of quid bought in bulk, maybe a bit more to pot them up in silicone or whatever to make them robust enough to go in a car. So it's a heck of a stretch to get from there to over £500. (actually just did a bit of Googling and you can buy Arduino-based CAN controllers for less than $15)

I'm surprised there aren't more enterprising electronics whizz-kids out there reverse-engineering the code for stuff like this and offering alternative solutions for out-of-warranty vehicles. Maybe there are but the main dealers don't want to get involved?
Posted By: Luddite

Re: More Lost Electrons - 09/06/22 07:15 AM

Glad you have a fully functioning Morgan again Peter...hope you have some great weather to enjoy all it has to offer very soon.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 09/06/22 09:13 AM

Thanks to all for support and good cheer during this painful time.
I was going to try Plus Six when I pick the car up on Saturday. It seems that I will not be doing so, now.
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 09/06/22 11:21 AM

Be interesting to know if you would be “ allowed” to do a test drive?
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: More Lost Electrons - 09/06/22 06:34 PM

Glad it looks like your electrical gremlins are sorted Peter

Perhaps the current CX issues may persuade you to keep Tarka
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/06/22 09:42 AM

[quote=CooperMan]Glad it looks like your electrical gremlins are sorted Peter

Perhaps the current CX issues may persuade you to keep Tarka[/quote


Yes.

I can pay for a lot of repairs for the cost of an upgrade......!
Posted By: nick w

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/06/22 10:14 AM

Excellent thought Peter, keep that lovely plus 8, it's such an individual car.
Nick
Posted By: JohnHarris

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/06/22 11:14 AM

Hopefully it's permanently fixed, fingers crossed. Now it's a case on putting on the miles and savouring all those elements of the Plus 8 you so enjoy, and with it the those doubts or concerns will disappear.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/06/22 11:55 AM

You could ask Williams for the bust BCU unit back, this would give you chance (at leisure) to trace the part number and hopefully come up with a competitive reserve source of a new box, just in case of future failure or worst still, future non availability

I'm currently toying with buying a BCU for the 3.7 Roadster for stock as the car is now out of production & the last ones out of warranty, especially as my pals Roadster sometimes has a bit of brain fart in the electronics occasionally
Posted By: Alistair

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/06/22 04:29 PM

Would not be a bad idea to collect all the dead parts and offer them to Simon in case they can be used for diagnostics etc ?
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/06/22 09:33 PM

Enjoy your drive back tomorrow Peter thumbs great looking weather forecast for next week too sunny

Buy the good lady a wine or two for her unerring support role smile
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by Peter J
£468.00 plus labour plus VAT.


Christ on a bike. Still, glad it's sorted. Did anyone ever figure out why a CANBus module is needed for the rear lights in the first place?

Just my thoughts but isn't this a situation where MMC painted themselves into a corner. Having accepted the BMW engine and it's PCM and BCU, in order to accept some but not all of the electronic bell's and whistles they were obliged to include many of the modules associated with the car(s) the N62 engine variant was built for, particularly with automatic versions. This as an easier solution to the imponderables of programming them out or maybe obtaining type approval.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 02:11 PM

My son took me to Williams this morning.
My nice clean Plus 8 was waiting.
We chatted Lindon about the CX brake issue.
I left, after Andy had checked the brake lights, and set off back with him following.
About half way home he phoned me to tell me that they had stopped working. We carried on.
At home he told me that they were not intermittent, but very definitely off. We checked again at home. Nothing.

I'm furious, disappointed and various other emotions...
I will be speaking to Williams on Monday....they can collect the car.
Posted By: JohnHarris

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 02:41 PM

Really sorry to hear what has happened I can understand your absolute annoyance and frustration. Hopefully its sorted out soon
regards
John
Posted By: Paul F

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 03:51 PM

I hope a refund is offered on the bill you have just paid since the problem is clearly not resolved.


Last time I witnessed an issue like this ( a modern tractor with gearbox control issues ), it eventually transpired that the loom had been crushed on assembly creating an intermittent fault that only became apparent after several years use and long after the warranty had expired.
Posted By: John V6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 03:59 PM

Sorry to hear that Peter.
Posted By: nick w

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 04:11 PM

Bad luck Peter, how frustrating.
Nick
Posted By: deano

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 04:37 PM

Really bad luck Peter
Posted By: James B W

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 04:49 PM

sorry to hear this Peter - but please don't let it put you off the car swear

Good luck in getting it sorted......

James
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 05:03 PM

How frustrating Peter, I hope there is a resolution soon for you.
Posted By: MJF

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 07:52 PM

Peter

If it helps, this week I got my AC Cobra back after a 3 year restoration which started out as an engine upgrade and then ended up as an upgrade of the engine, clutch, gearbox, driveshaft, diff, complete rebuild of suspension, upgrade of brakes and a complete re-trim.

The re-calibration of the 8 port fuel injection system took 6 months to resolve due to problems with the ECU, the throttle position sensor and availability of a chassis dyno with the people of the appropriate experience.

I have now driven it 5 times and although I am still breaking the car in am very pleased with the way it is going - other than I have 5 little pools of oil underneath the rear nearside shock absorber.

The car is back up on axle stands waiting for a replacement shock absorber which is very frustrating after 3 years and a very significant spend - but I really like the car and can't see what else could replace it. Sometimes you just need to grit your teeth and keep moving forward as, will anything else put the same smile on your face when it is all going well ?
Posted By: DaveW

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 08:17 PM

By the sound if this Peter, you need to find a specialist Auto Electrician. The complexity may be beyond even the dealer group.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/06/22 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by DaveW
By the sound if this Peter, you need to find a specialist Auto Electrician. The complexity may be beyond even the dealer group.

Agreed as already suggested here earlier in this thread!
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 12/06/22 06:05 AM

That's a bugger. I'm with Dave and Richard, this looks like a CAN electronics problem rather than a Morgan or car problem.
Posted By: Luddite

Re: More Lost Electrons - 12/06/22 06:30 AM

Jeez, I am really sorry to read that your issues are not resolved Peter, one thing is for sure they can be and will be if you are determined enough to go the distance. I can only imagine how frustrated you must be but we are all rooting for you. I have no experience with modern automotive electronics and even less patience with them or the average fault finding and repair processes, but it would seem that swapping modules is not sorting it out, thus a wire by wire loom check by an auto electrical specialist as has already been suggested may put an end to this most unfortunate situation..

I seem to remember Lorne has issues with the wiring on his +8 that turned out to be caused by the point of a screw entering the harness and creating issues. Though perhaps the problem is coincidental perhaps caused by the brake light switch going faulty. Given the possible disturbance of the kit involved it may just be that something has been disturbed thus no big issue to resolve..?

Hope you can get it resolved soon Peter.
Posted By: milligoon

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/06/22 05:03 PM

Chaffed loom is my suspicion, grounding out the unit to the module further up the line
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/06/22 06:02 PM

Williams service department has referred the problem to Morgan, they will collect the car when they get a replay from MMC. It is possible the car will go straight to Malvern.
Job 1 is to get the car roadworthy.
Job 2 is to decide what to do with it.

I'd be thinking about a CX PlusFour... not for now. I might go Time Travelling and go back to a Trad.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/06/22 07:00 PM

That sounds like a good plan for the remedial action.

There are some beauties out there at the moment to ponder..
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 24/06/22 10:31 AM

There has been some progress, of sorts...

MMC asked for photos of the wiring to the back of the OBD socket, which have been sent, but I've no real reason why they should want them.A week later there has not been any response from MMC. It seems they are a bit preoccupied with changing brake master cylinders on the CX cars. The summer will likely be over before we get to use the car again....
Posted By: Luddite

Re: More Lost Electrons - 24/06/22 11:44 AM

This system failure frustrates me greatly, and is so unlike the self reliance expected of Morgan owners or repair services available to them in times past..?

To be entirely dependant on the MMC, their processes and dealerships to resolve an electrical issue and tied into that scheme by way of guarantee expectations and resolutions seems none too efficient... If the issue is related to the operation of lighting, lights ned not to be electronically controlled..? I would think that there are ways and means to have lights operating on a temporary basis by simple effective and entirely reliable means to permit usage of a Morgan until the MMC resources might think of a repair process for systems they seem not to understand well enough to provide a fix for within a reasonable timespan.

As for whatever legislative processes might inhibit that which otherwise might seem to be a logical option I am left to imagine... What a sad state of affairs...?

I do hope to read that you are able to return to enjoying your Morgan ASAP along with whatever Summer we may have left in store..
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/07/22 06:10 PM

Hot News: Williams have received a plan from MMC to track down my errant electrons. The car goes back to Williams next week.
There is a rider from MMC.... If the plan doesn't work then the car goes back to MMC!

I've told Williams that I do not want to see Tarka again until here electrons are fully controlled and showing total obedience.

This thread started because the battery wouldn't stay charged. It does now, tonight after sitting in the garage since 26th June the battery measures 12.2v!
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: More Lost Electrons - 08/07/22 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Hot News: Williams have received a plan from MMC to track down my errant electrons. The car goes back to Williams next week.
There is a rider from MMC.... If the plan doesn't work then the car goes back to MMC!

I've told Williams that I do not want to see Tarka again until here electrons are fully controlled and showing total obedience.

This thread started because the battery wouldn't stay charged. It does now, tonight after sitting in the garage since 26th June the battery measures 12.2v!

Peter, you could still have an issue, my chart on the wall reminds me 12.2 is only 50% charged, I'd be looking for 12.5 to 12.65 to be happier (sorry)
Posted By: OZ 4/4

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/07/22 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
My son took me to Williams this morning.
My nice clean Plus 8 was waiting.
We chatted Lindon about the CX brake issue.
I left, after Andy had checked the brake lights, and set off back with him following.
About half way home he phoned me to tell me that they had stopped working. We carried on.
At home he told me that they were not intermittent, but very definitely off. We checked again at home. Nothing.

I'm furious, disappointed and various other emotions...
I will be speaking to Williams on Monday....they can collect the car.



Sorry to hear this...
Posted By: Luddite

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/07/22 10:10 AM

JEEZ...At this stage of the "game" I would have been loking for a detailed explanation of the fault found and "repair" process. If no fault found then replacement of components in the hope it will be resolved seems the only option.. They MUST fix it, or find someone who can... I do wonder just how difficult it could possibly be...?
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/07/22 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Luddite
They MUST fix it, or find someone who can... I do wonder just how difficult it could possibly be...?


If they've replaced the component modules without success then it's got to be in the only other part of the system - the wires that link them up or the connections themselves. I believe (although I can't remember when or how I learned this so I might have dreamt it) that some modern automobile electronics diagnostic kit has the ability to see whether a wire has a full or partial short to ground and can tell exactly how far along the length of wire it is.

We had some problems with the wiring on our Landy a few years ago, the garage immediately called in a mobile electrical specialist who found and fixed the fault in less than an hour. His time was expensive per hour but as the garage said, they could have been searching for hours before they found it. It was caused by chafing and was invisible to the naked eye.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/07/22 10:19 AM

I think there is a plan of action in place George involving Williams and MMC, the holding factor is the CX issues I believe.

The post that Gary is quoting is an old one tbf 11th June, but he enjoys stirring things for MMC grin2
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/07/22 10:39 AM

The suspect module has been changed. It worked for a while... so a chafed wire does sound probable. We need to find out as these cars age faults appear; Tarka was built in 2013 and has run 46,026 miles to date so is one of the older Plus 8s and there are not many with that sort of mileage. This sort of data communication faut may appear on other older Plus 8s.
Posted By: John V6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/07/22 04:37 PM

Peter,
I'm so sorry to hear this. I do worry about the electrics in Belle for similar reasons
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 10/07/22 11:03 PM

Your experience will certainly make people think twice before jumping in this 2015 with 45,000 mile Speedster as lovely as it is.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/07/22 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by John V6
Peter,
I'm so sorry to hear this. I do worry about the electrics in Belle for similar reasons

I suspect that on our Roadsters John, MMC accepted a greater degree of Ford electronic wisdom than on other models. The consequence being greater reliability than offered by home brewed hybrid systems. They also wisely chose to limit CANBUS to the essentials and not let light failure be under its control.

With sunlight at the right angle you can see behind main (Mustang) instruments a large number of notification icons that simply aren't connected, so far less to worry about smile
Posted By: John V6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 11/07/22 07:03 AM

That is true Richard.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/07/22 03:27 PM

Day three of round three in the hunt for the lost electrons and still no news.
Anyone care to place a bet on when I see the car back, working?
My somewhat cynical estimate is 1 September...
Posted By: Alistair

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/07/22 04:03 PM

Sorry to hear it Peter. I do know how you feel as the Coupe spent extended periods on holiday in Malvern.

Well the Coupe goes to Williams on monday to be recommissioned. I am not looking forward to the call saying "we have found......."
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/07/22 05:50 PM

Alistair, I remember your regular trips to Malvern...
it will be good to have the car recommissioned. I enjoyed the drive in it, which was largely the cause of my move from the Trad side to the Plus 8!
These cars are demanding of much love, attention and money, but give in return a very special relationship...
Posted By: Alistair

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/07/22 08:15 PM

So I went out to the garage this evening to get the Coupe out of the garage and give it a bath before it went off.

Sitting on the trickle charger.

Did it start, did it b____y

Back to the old routine.

So one Noco GBX55 on order from amazon for friday. When the tyres on the turbo sofa are being changed tomorrow morning the battery is going back under warranty as Halfords is next to Kwik-Fit.

Life with these things is never easy is it.

Bah humbug.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: More Lost Electrons - 13/07/22 09:31 PM

Blocks - good luck tomorrow.
Posted By: JB62

Re: More Lost Electrons - 14/07/22 10:01 AM

Alistair- I hope you get the machine back to what it ought to be doing with as little pain as possible.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 15/07/22 09:17 AM

Latest update from Williams...
Morgan has given them a list of connections to check for a specific voltage. The report back will go to Morgan later today.
MMC will respond by either telling Williams what to do, of tell them to bring the car up to Malvern.

Oh yes, and the insurance is due on he Morgan this week: £542.84 from Gott and Wynn, slightly irritating when I cannot use the car...!!
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: More Lost Electrons - 15/07/22 04:46 PM

Looks a reasonable insurance renewal though Peter, considering how special that era of Aero Plus 8 is thumbs
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 15/07/22 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by CooperMan
Looks a reasonable insurance renewal though Peter, considering how special that era of Aero Plus 8 is thumbs


Agreed, no quibbles: it is less than the road tax!!
The Mercedes and the Tesla together cost about the same!!
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 20/07/22 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Latest update from Williams...
Morgan has given them a list of connections to check for a specific voltage. The report back will go to Morgan later today.
MMC will respond by either telling Williams what to do, of tell them to bring the car up to Malvern.

Oh yes, and the insurance is due on he Morgan this week: £542.84 from Gott and Wynn, slightly irritating when I cannot use the car...!!


Well, the car has to go back to Malvern, the data sent by Williams to Morgan doesn't match up with what MMC say it should be.
As MMC has a week off next week the cr will remain at Williams until early August.

Iwonder when I'll see it gain and I am slightly concerned what the bill will be. I hope I don't have to sell it to pay for the work: that would insult to injury.
Posted By: Alistair

Re: More Lost Electrons - 20/07/22 04:44 PM

It might be parked next to the Coupe Peter. Distract yourself with some hot hatchback baiting in the Tesla. There are always a few muppets doing roundabout racing in Basingrad. cop

Williams said the steering problems on the Coupe were a seized Universal Joint at the base of the column as opposed to anything worse, good news for a change, I was expecting to need a new rack or some such.
Posted By: JohnHarris

Re: More Lost Electrons - 20/07/22 04:49 PM

Really sorry to hear how things are progressing, at least there appears to be some progress, if only narrowing down the areas of non conformance/outside of limits. It will be interesting to understand whether these faults are caused by degradation/ age or poor build quality to begin with eg trapped wires. Many wiring harnesses are biodegradable these days, so over time they breakdown and cause all sorts of electrical gremlins. I hope it turns out to be something quite simple and easy to fix.

Its amazing how the electrical supply is so critical to car operating systems these days. Today I learnt the wife's Mercedes auto gearbox speed sensor and control unit needs to be replaced, ok but a little surprised at only 34k miles. But in amongst the error messages my battery appears not to generate enough power for the gearbox speed sensor, so looks like a new battery as well is needed! I never thought my battery may influence the operating of the Mercedes gearbox. We live and learn.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 20/07/22 05:35 PM

I read Autocar every week, but increasingly the cars they talk about and review do nothing for me, it is all EV and PHEV.
I'm simply uninterested.
Time to stop the subscription, I think,
Posted By: Lordofthewings

Re: More Lost Electrons - 20/07/22 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
I read Autocar every week, but increasingly the cars they talk about and review do nothing for me, it is all EV and PHEV.
I'm simply uninterested. Time to stop the subscription, I think,

Or take up something more interesting, like fishing maybe..... smile
Posted By: SALMO

Re: More Lost Electrons - 20/07/22 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lordofthewings

Or take up something more interesting, like fishing maybe..... smile


For goodness sake NO, he may bag all the best bits of water.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: More Lost Electrons - 21/07/22 01:42 PM

No, I'm not into getting cold and wet on the bank of a lake.....
I sit in my attic workplace and build things like this....

[Linked Image]

W3760, Spitfire Vb.

How many of you knew that in 1943 4 spitfires were fitted with floats to be part of a subsequently aborted raid into the Greek held Dodecanese Islands off the Turkish coast?
By all accounts they performed better than expected!
Posted By: Lordofthewings

Re: More Lost Electrons - 21/07/22 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
How many of you knew that in 1943 4 spitfires were fitted with floats to be part of a subsequently aborted raid into the Greek held Dodecanese Islands off the Turkish coast? By all accounts they performed better than expected!


Classic bit of aeronautical reverse-engineering.
R.J. Mitchell's Supermarine S.6B (inspiration for his Spitfire) won the Schneider Tropy on 13th September 1931, piloted by Flt. Lt. John Boothman. My Dad (as a young lad) saw the race off the Solent at Calshot. Now that would've been something to have witnessed.
(Excellent bit of model-making Peter !)

[Linked Image]
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: More Lost Electrons - 22/07/22 07:32 AM

Always seemed incongruous to me that a world speed record set with a beautifully streamlined aircraft powered by what was to become the most famous aircraft piston engine would also be dragging (literally) along a pair of huge floats confused2
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