Talk Morgan

Uneven steering feel

Posted By: Heinz

Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 04:01 PM

I was on the lift with the 4/4, we blew the brakes.
I noticed that the steering with the wheels in the air is alternately heavy and light.

And only afterwards I had the sensitivity for the fact that it is also like that on the road.
When parking, for example, if you steer fast and a lot, it seems lighter and then again with more resistance.
It's not edgy or scratchy. It is rather a soft but persistent resistance when turning the steering wheel.

Is it normal but did I notice it now? Or do I have to change something (the Garage, not me), maybe a joint?
The steering has more than one of them, I think?
Posted By: Max5

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 04:22 PM

I think that this is likely to be a "they all do that, sir". Certainly all of my Morgans have done it but it is only noticeable when the wheels are off the ground and you use a wheel to reposition the wheels to get access to the grease nipples.
Posted By: xc68anc

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 05:22 PM

I think it's non servod?

It's the same as on my Morgan and tmy old Mini (and the Minis of my friends). If I lift them for to grease the front suspension,I can turn the wheel by hand from totally left to right and back.

If they both are standing on their wheels my girls aren't able to turn the steering. I think it's about the physical forces. And normal.

René
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 05:45 PM

René, yes of course it is lighter to steer the wheels in the air. What I mean is the unevenness of the steering force during the turning of the steering wheel in the air. And after that experience I also noticed it now with the weight loaded on the road when manoeuvring.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 05:50 PM

I guess the steering rack is nicely full of grease, just an idea.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 06:00 PM

I think so, yes. I had to replace one steering gaiter this summer and there was plenty of grease (within both gaiters). The one cross joint can be seen directly in the engine compartment. That one has also new lubricating grease. Is there another cross joint that you can't see directly?

Ah I see, there are two or so more joints.
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/steeringr&p.html

May be it makes sense to look at those cross joints which are more below, further away from the steering wheel according to the drawing in the link...perhaps some grease may help. I have not greased that joints before...
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 06:10 PM

That's good, it might be worth checking this plate for peace of mind Heinz.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 06:23 PM

Thanks for the tip, Richard, I will do so.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 07:55 PM

I have felt a VERY slight “ notchiness” as Max5 describes when the car is on stands and off the ground. I have done checks on the whole steering system and not found any problems though. I put it down to the teeth engagement in the rack/pinion.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 08:25 PM

Reversing the steering system with wheels off the ground by moving them from side to side always seems to thow up small variations in stiffness through the lock to lock range. On my 53 year old Land Rover with a steering box there is also a friction damper in the linkage to contend with. On my Roadster the mechanical effects of electric assistance on the column may be a cause, or just the rack and pinion working in reverse. In any/either case I would only worry if excessive.

ETA: Heinz also mentions steering joints. Individual universal joints do exhibit angular acceleration/deceleration when transmitting a turning force through an angle (hence adoption of CV joints on FWD vehicles) which may also contribute to the observed effect.
Posted By: Fox Terrier

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 10:29 PM

My Plus 4 steering has always had a similar characteristic to the one you have described. I've always just put it down to the character of the car and it's ancient engineering.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 11:08 PM

TBH, I also think it is part of the soul of the car. But I had a MOT(TÜV) appointment today and they were not happy about it. The car was left at the garage and they decide tomorrow if I get the new sticker when the MOT expert is back there. May be it is a matter of the amount of significance or in other words if a certain threshold has been reached they have noticed it at all.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 11:13 PM

Good luck tomorrow Heinz, maybe a bottle of Asbach Uralt could help
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 11:15 PM

Oh...may be 40 years ago, today they know what a single malt is...
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Uneven steering feel - 03/12/19 11:18 PM

Things have moved on Heinz since we lived out there smile , it was the drink in those days..
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 12:30 AM

Does the Morgan use a variable rack and pinion system?
Quote
Some cars have variable-ratio steering, which uses a rack-and-pinion gearset that has a different tooth pitch (number of teeth per inch) in the center than it has on the outside. This makes the car respond quickly when starting a turn (the rack is near the center), and also reduces effort near the wheel's turning limits.

Years ago I had Sydney clients who held the patents on a system that was used by many manufacturers. They actually prepared the designs for their clients in their Sydney office. Quite a few Japanese cars used their design and tooling.
Posted By: Fox Terrier

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Heinz
TBH, I also think it is part of the soul of the car. But I had a MOT(TÜV) appointment today and they were not happy about it. The car was left at the garage and they decide tomorrow if I get the new sticker when the MOT expert is back there. May be it is a matter of the amount of significance or in other words if a certain threshold has been reached they have noticed it at all.



I suppose it depends on whether it's a smooth and predictable action which is a characteristic or a "sticky" action that would be a fault.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 08:50 AM

Good luck Heinz I would take Asbach Uralt over Scotch any day
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 06:58 PM

You all certainly know the experience that things get a little worse every day but for a long period of time you don't notice the change so much when you deal with it during a long time on aa regular base.
E.g. the needle of a pickup system, an electron tube, a clean window glass... or if you look into the mirror every day... But suddenly a point is reached when the impulse is there that you have to change something.

It was similar with the MOT today. The Mog did not pass. First I was a little upset, but then I realized it. I tried the steering and actually it is so that there are very clear peaks where the steering is really very heavy. I hadn't noticed it before. But it's definitely not as smooth as it used to be. Now the point was reached as with the dirty window glass when you think you must clean it.

Seen that way I am grateful to the MOT. I will have let a detailed analysis of all UJs and all the other parts mentioned done next week. What is necessary will be swapped. Safety first. After that the car will be demonstrated and checked again.
I think that hardly any car has to withstand so many vibrations and shocks as a Trad. Mog. That's why I'm really not annoying. I have an understanding. The car has 76,000 km in five years. It has deserved new components if they serve safety.
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 07:02 PM

It's good they picked it up at the TUV Heinz it has maybe saved you from something else, we never know.
You will have peace of mind then also.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 07:42 PM

Better safe than sorry. Good luck
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 08:25 PM

There are two sharp angles in the steering column. The two UJs cause this effect. It's normal.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 08:33 PM

Yes, I agree with you, Dave. But it has become much more. The first angle behind the dashboard is not sharp. The second UJ covered by the metal under the wing is relatively sharp. Then the third UJ in front of the steering. I will have everything checked.
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 09:51 PM

Does lowering the steering column make any difference Heinz?

Has the rack moved slightly out of alignment?

With my MGV8, where the exhaust manifold passed close to the column UJ, it eventually dried the grease out and stiffened the joint. So with my Morgans, I make sure there's plenty of insulation between the two. Your column and manifold are on opposite sides though?
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 04/12/19 09:57 PM

A good idea, Dave, the first part of your post. I will try if I see a difference when lowering the steering column. The manifold is not of such an influence to my car because the column is placed on the „wrong“ side:)
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 13/12/19 06:05 PM

An update re this issue. First we (my son is a trained vehicle mechanic and is now studying engineering for vehicle technology and machine construction) examined the handlebars with the UJ. All are perfectly smooth-running and with good bearings. Then we turned the steering without linkage at the front wheel. It was very stiff and as before when driving we noticed this inequality of resistance.
We removed the steering because it was not ok to drive with it anyway. To see if the spindle or even the rack has damage to teeth the spindle was removed.
We noticed by our marking that the adjusting screw was much too tight. It was almost up to 1.5 mm outer circle of the screw at the stop.

We brought the parts to an expert and he confirmed that the spindle and the rack are still in good condition. Of course I was afraid it might be worn out, or a tooth might be broken off and ground.

But all parts are still very good. It was just too tightly adjusted. The rule of thumb with such an adjustment screw is about 1/8 turn back from the attachment point. There is also a spring under the screw so that the spindle always has pressure contact with the rack. Now the steering runs very well. It has been re-greased and is now being assembled.
I never noticed it before. Whether the rack can have curved over the years and kilometers in the 100th of a millimeter range so that the distance became somewhat narrower?

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Posted By: BertL

Re: Uneven steering feel - 14/12/19 02:59 AM

Reassuring news Heinz,...looking forward to your road test observations/comments after the reassembly and adjustment.drive
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 19/12/19 10:11 PM

The car passed the TÜV (MOT) today. There were two different steering errors. For unexplainable reasons the Quaife steering was set much too tight as I wrote before. It is now adjusted in a way that the steering is just not heavy. This is about 1/8 turn back from full stop. Lorne Goldman even recommends 1/4 turn back on the Quaife steering. But I wanted to stay on the safe side. And still it's a lot freer than it was before. We've checked and cleaned all the parts. The spring works like it should. Also the plastic cylinder that transfers the force of the spring to the pinion works fine and is easy to move. Since the revised setting, the steering has become much lighter. It is now as it should be. I have never driven another 4/4. Therefore I have no comparison and no reference. My former Morgan had much more weight and much wider tyres. I can't compare it to that. But I think that the steering of the bigger Morgan was as smooth as the current one is now, but due to weight and wide tyres more friction was added at that time. But when driving faster, the steering of the Roadster was as smooth in the middle position as it is only now with the 4/4.

The second problem we found is of a completely different nature. This brings me back to the phenomenon of uneven steering forces described in the first post. We have examined all Ujoints and all bearings are 100% ok. We have taken everything apart and inspected them individually. And we mounted the Ujoints again in such a way in their position to each other that the deflection forces are as balanced as possible. But about every half turn of the steering wheel there is a resistance peak that has to be overcome. Even if now everything is much lighter going.

If we turn the front wheels from left to right the steering wheel turns faster than if we turn it by hand. Thereby an effect has become visible. The first cardan shaft with its Ujoints in the engine compartment, seen from the steering wheel and ending in the metal box under the wing, does not run smoothly. You can clearly see how the rod jumps up and down with every fast turn.

I see two possible explanations. Either the shaft is crooked or one of the Ujoints has not been welded exactly centered. We will have a closer look. On the other hand, I must say that the steering has never been as good as now. I have a lot more feeling for the road and tyre grip than before. More about further investigation regarding the rod later (in spring).

PS. Regarding the steering adjustment. We let the toe rods fixed in the rubber bearings but the steering clearly has to be adjusted again even if it is not so much out of play.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Uneven steering feel - 20/12/19 12:31 PM

Heinz, I would suspect the UJ's on the steering shaft, mine look a bit basic quality & I suspect are not OE tested for alignment

As you know if you rotate a single knuckle UJ with the shafts at an angle you will get a spike in rotational resistance at the peak of 'kink', I once had an advisory on an MOT for a previous Mog for play in the steering UJ's (but turned out to be the bulkhead thrust bearing mount)
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Uneven steering feel - 20/12/19 01:21 PM

I adjusted my Roadster rack way back because it was adjusted too loose. It's fiddly to do on the car, and you need a big open ender, but I managed it.

Found it! Scroll down for the images:

http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/44835/Classic_Traditional_Cars_Steer#Post44835

In the MGB workshop manual, the factory used a special tool which comprised two cones fitted on the end of each part of the steering column to achieve perfect alignment.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 20/12/19 03:59 PM

Dave my rack is also on the loose side a little bit now when driving straight ahead. Did you have had a comparison with another Roadster or did you adjust it to your personal preference?
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Uneven steering feel - 20/12/19 05:57 PM

Heinz, from your description of your steering feeling loose while driving straight ahead, it seems likely to be the result of play somewhere in the system.

That you have checked over everything, it seems probable that the pinion to rack adjustment (mesh) may need a fraction of a turn to provide a bit more direct feel to the steering..

PLAY can be measured by turning the steering wheel from clockwise to anti clockwise UNTIL you feel resistance in both directions. That resistance being created by the road wheels contact with the ground before they start to move even fractionally.

This PLAY on my old +8 with a 15" /400mm steering wheel, when measured on the outer edge of the steering wheel, is about 7mm in total, (left to right) if more than that on your car, perhaps that is the reason you describe the steering as "loose" caused by the the lack of pressure in the mesh between rack and pinion.. ?

The same thing can occur if the rack and pinion become worn, which tends to show up in a situation when the steering is in the straight ahead position just as you describe as on a high mileage vehicle most of the steering action is in that area of the rack... Also in that situation the free play reduces once the wheels are turned away from the straight ahead position..

This usual procedure may be complicated by the issue you describe due to possible misalignment in one of your Universal Joints when trying to feel resistance as described above...?

Hope this helps and does not add confusion..?

Good luck.
Posted By: IcePack

Re: Uneven steering feel - 20/12/19 07:43 PM

I'm sure this has been checked, but when I took delivery of my 4/4 it felt awful in a straight line. (felt very like play) Seems the factory had somehow set a tiny bit of toe out. Bit of a re jig of the front end which as it happens included different shocks solved the problem.
Posted By: Gambalunga

Re: Uneven steering feel - 20/12/19 07:45 PM

Perhaps what is needed is a little CV joint.

https://www.ntnglobal.com/en/products/review/pdf/NTN_TR73_en_P084.pdf
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 01:52 AM

Thanks all for your comments.
Luddite, there is no play, the steering reacts to the smallest turn even when driving straight ahead. It is under control but we have adjust the rack a little bit on the light side the way Dave W has described the steering of his Roadster before he screwed the pinion a tad more in. We will do the same. This time we will turn the steering wheel to get a proper feel for the right amount of resistance when altering the pressure of the pinion. As I mentioned the rack was too heavy resistant and now it is just a bit to loose and gives a weird feel during the straight ahead part of steering. Play should not occure regarding this system at all and I do not feel play. See Lorne Goldman Watchpoint IV. http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/steeringr&p.html
And as you can see in the photos above, the condition of rack and pinion still looks pretty good.

Regarding the U joints, without U joint shafts connected my steering turns smoothly and even when moved at the wheels.
Jon, the first part of the steering shafts which starts directly from the steering wheel looks very good in our case. It is the following part that is not „round“. We will have another close look at it.

IcePack, the steering was adjusted to 1mm toe in with the change to new tyres in spring. I know what you mean. A little bit of toe out gives a strange feeling and disturbs the straight ahead driving quite sensitively.
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Heinz
Dave my rack is also on the loose side a little bit now when driving straight ahead. Did you have had a comparison with another Roadster or did you adjust it to your personal preference?


I didn't compare Heinz, it just wasn't right. Fortunately I'm familiar enough with steering racks to realise that!
Posted By: Button

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 03:40 PM

FWIW: I have a Jack Knight Rack on My +8 Bitsa. Steering got sloppy. There is a block of Nylatron that pushes the Pinion into the rack. It had swelled. I was able to get the Nylatron out but could not get it back in. A Machinist Friend used a lathe file and re-fitted the Nylatron, About 3 years ago. So far so good.
Posted By: BertL

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 04:21 PM

"Regarding the U joints, without U joint shafts connected my steering turns smoothly and even when moved at the wheels."

IMHO, therein lies the crux of the problem, no reason to search elsewhere, repair or replace the offending U-joint.... cheers
Posted By: Luddite

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 05:05 PM

Heinz, I am pleased that you found the cause creating the change in feel as you rotated the steering wheel, and seemingly identified it as the result of a universal joint that for some reason is out of alignment, and which you can hopefully rectify. I would be far less than happy with any universal joint adding anything to the feel of the steering, be that by adding play when worn, or resistance to turning either due to internal corrosion, misalignment, or being used outside it`s design parameters..

As you have determined there is now no play in the steering, I am unsure if that may be ideal in a road car, where the slightest driver input to the steering wheel could create an alteration in direction, thinking perhaps s a sneeze or body movement caused by hitting a pot hole etc...?

With no play whatsoever in the steering I suspect it may require constant correction..? If you consider a similar input to the system can also come from from the road surface given the many influences found on it...camber changes, repairs, puddles, etc. A small measure of play felt at the steering wheel may enhance the feel of the steering, and perhaps require slightly less corrective input...?

The play I mentioned can relate directly to the feel of the steering system, and the only play likely to be found should be at the interface of the rack to pinion gear teeth, If your pinion to rack adjustment has too much pressure in it caused by over adjustment, the steering will feel tight and require constant correction while driving and rob the driver of the ability of the steering system to self centre / return to straight ahead after turning a corner...

I can well understand that on a race car that zero play maximises the very direct feel in the steering system which may be an ideal , perhaps less so on the road, and in a car with vintage suspension design...?

Increasing play in steering (under adjustment) can also equate to wear found in other components within the system which generally can be detected by the driver at the steering wheel. In the case of my Morgan more than the 7mm or so measured at the outside of the rim of the steering wheel would alter the feel, the more that play increases the more urgent it is to look for the problem causing the increasing play, which similar to an overly stiff steering will require more driver input to keep on course...?

IcePac`s suggestion on the loose feel that may be experienced at the steering wheel if even slight toe out is found in the alignment, is something I have experienced on vehicles..

Thanks for posting the GoMoG link Heinz, I am a long time BIG fan of GoMoG and the huge amount of effort that Lorne the web master there has over many many years put into providing totally FREE access to a huge wealth of Morgan related data to help Morganeers maintain and repair their cars, and all devoid of advertising.. I suspect there is many a Morganeer who would perhaps grudgingly be forced to admit the answer to resolving their issues was found on GoMoG...?

I do hope your steering FEEL can be adjusted to match your requirements of it.

Good luck Heinz.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 05:20 PM

Bert, I agree, this is the major issue. And it should be solved easily by changing the in the meantime identified bad shaft.
The smaller second issue is that the steering rack itself was adjusted way to hard. The rack and pinion itself is ok without any wear but it was almost all the way turned in during the 5.5 years of the cars lifetime. Therefore the spring below the screw may be pressed too much because I do not feel a smooth change of resistance but a relatively abrupt change at ca. 1/8 turn out of the pinion adjustment screw. And unlike in Dave’s case who described 9 years ago in his old TM thread that it was very hard to set the adjustment screw in, which follows the spring, the adjustment screw following „our“ spring can be turned into it‘s thread without the need of any power. So could it be possible that our spring was pressed too much and too long time and is consequently out of shape? Or keeps such a spring shape and elasticity once released?
All that saying I think when using a spring which is stronger I could fine tune the steering resistance in smaller steps.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Luddite
Heinz, I am pleased that you found the cause creating the change in feel as you rotated the steering wheel, and seemingly identified it as the result of a universal joint that for some reason is out of alignment, and which you can hopefully rectify. I would be far less than happy with any universal joint adding anything to the feel of the steering, be that by adding play when worn, or resistance to turning either due to internal corrosion, misalignment, or being used outside it`s design parameters..

As you have determined there is now no play in the steering, I am unsure if that may be ideal in a road car, where the slightest driver input to the steering wheel could create an alteration in direction, thinking perhaps s a sneeze or body movement caused by hitting a pot hole etc...?

As I understood Lorne, this kind of steering is not supposed to have play in the design, Luddite. Something very different are recirculating ball steering systems like in an old Mercedes. They always have some play in the center.


With no play whatsoever in the steering I suspect it may require constant correction..? If you consider a similar input to the system can also come from from the road surface given the many influences found on it...camber changes, repairs, puddles, etc. A small measure of play felt at the steering wheel may enhance the feel of the steering, and perhaps require slightly less corrective input...?

If the toe-in is correct, the car should pull itself straight ahead. And this is also the case with my car. But so that the steering is not too nervous and does not follow all the influences of the road, I would like to increase the pressure between pinion and rack very slightly. Then the steering becomes calmer and is still light enough, especially to move back on its own.

The play I mentioned can relate directly to the feel of the steering system, and the only play likely to be found should be at the interface of the rack to pinion gear teeth, If your pinion to rack adjustment has too much pressure in it caused by over adjustment, the steering will feel tight and require constant correction while driving and rob the driver of the ability of the steering system to self centre / return to straight ahead after turning a corner...

This was exactly the case before I started the whole investigation and the car had not passed any MOT at first. Only I had gotten too used to the too stiff steering during the whole time. Self centering was working but all was too stiff. And only because of this circumstances the MOT inspector noticed too much forces needed because the U joint issue came on top and added the peak points resistance.

I can well understand that on a race car that zero play maximises the very direct feel in the steering system which may be an ideal , perhaps less so on the road, and in a car with vintage suspension design...?

Increasing play in steering (under adjustment) can also equate to wear found in other components within the system which generally can be detected by the driver at the steering wheel. In the case of my Morgan more than the 7mm or so measured at the outside of the rim of the steering wheel would alter the feel, the more that play increases the more urgent it is to look for the problem causing the increasing play, which similar to an overly stiff steering will require more driver input to keep on course...?

IcePac`s suggestion on the loose feel that may be experienced at the steering wheel if even slight toe out is found in the alignment, is something I have experienced on vehicles..

Thanks for posting the GoMoG link Heinz, I am a long time BIG fan of GoMoG and the huge amount of effort that Lorne the web master there has over many many years put into providing totally FREE access to a huge wealth of Morgan related data to help Morganeers maintain and repair their cars, and all devoid of advertising.. I suspect there is many a Morganeer who would perhaps grudgingly be forced to admit the answer to resolving their issues was found on GoMoG...?

I think Gomog is a very helpful site! Unfortunately, it is a pity that the relationship to TM is obviously not very close, for reasons that do not have to interest me.


I do hope your steering FEEL can be adjusted to match your requirements of it.

I am on a good path and I am very confident. Maybe I have to find a source where I can buy such a cardan shaft with the right dimension
s of everything[/color]



Good luck Heinz
Thank you very much for your kind and eloquent input, Luddite smile thumbs

.

Posted By: Luddite

Re: Uneven steering feel - 21/12/19 09:58 PM

Heinz, thank you for your very kind comments. I am no expert, thus I am only sharing my thinking and am ever open to an alternative line of thought, I come here to learn.

Interesting that you determine recirculating ball systems as in Merc`s have a degree of play in the straight ahead (central) steering position... which I might expect for the reasons I stated.

In worm and peg steering boxes and rack and pinion, when badly worn the wear ever occurs up to a few degrees either side of the straight ahead position as measured at the steering wheel. The reason for the wear in that particular area is that as we drive we are continually operating the steering system in that small area... Again increasing play shows up at the steering wheel and can be measured as I suggested.

If attempting to adjust any excess play out of the system in the central position caused by wear, and in the hope of returning it to match the original feel, once the adjustment has been made in the central position.... on turning the steering wheel towards lock in either direction, the steering will become tight indicating that the wear can not be adjusted out, without introducing further issues..

With no wear in the system the feel should be the same from lock to lock.

The spring loaded pad in the rack and pinion system would seem capable of compensating for differences in mesh across the range of the rack as the result of a degree of engineering tollerances, and to some degree for a small degree of wear. I also suspect the spring loaded pad can provide a degree of shock absorption in the system..?

I too have zero interest in personality clashes, unfortunately in the early years of the web without emojis, it was all to easy to misjudge meaning which seemed to happen all too often in discussion groups of all kinds creating issues..a great pity.
Posted By: Button

Re: Uneven steering feel - 22/12/19 12:10 AM

"I too have zero interest in personality clashes, unfortunately in the early years of the web without emojis, it was all to easy to misjudge meaning which seemed to happen all too often in discussion groups of all kinds creating issues..a great pity."

I agree with Luddite. I was involved in the same discussion group. I now take great care what I write and how I express myself. Even then I often make a mess of it. But it is too bad as I often do not take part in an interesting debate for fear of being misunderstood.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 22/01/20 04:13 PM

Small update.

As reported, we had made the Quaife steering smoother. But it remains with the resistance peaks every half turn. I had identified exactly the cardan shaft between the steering and the first point of deflection in the wheel housing as the culprit. It went a bit up and down when turning at the wheels in the air. All other shafts are smooth.

In the meantime this shaft was tested by a highly recommended specialist company in Cologne. Really great service, I am just a satisfied customer. There everything is individually rebuilt or repaired what you need.

https://www.elbe-gmbh.de/gelenkwellen/oldtimer/

The result: This cardan shaft is absolutely ok. Straight and without bend, with centered welded joints, bearings as good as new.

Only one thing was suspect to the expert. The alignment of the joints on both sides of the connecting rod are not in the same direction. But in his opinion they should be. They are offset at an angle of about 130 degrees to each other (in my memory, I'm on a long-distance train)
The expert says that sometimes this is done to balance forces at strong redirection. For example, the steering of the Mercedes G model he said, has a 75 degree offset at one of the shaft joints to run smoothly.

This results in two questions:

1) Are the joints on both sides of this Morgan shaft deliberately mounted in a twisted position? (The one end with the screw connection has a forced guidance. But the other end is pressed on and might be pressed on incorrectly and might have to be straight with the opposite joint? But I don't want to test this and therefore damage the part but I will leave the press connection undamaged.

2) If it is intentionally twisted (the relation of both joints to each other) is there a recommended alignment of the joint to the next shaft below? I can of course try it but any advice would be of great help.
Posted By: RobCol

Re: Uneven steering feel - 25/10/20 05:15 AM


Hi Heinz

Uneven steering feel as you describe was mentioned by my MOT tester last week. I had noticed it myself with the wheels off the ground but it isn't really noticeable when driving the car. The car passed the MOT without it being an advisory.

I can live with it so if its normal its not really a problem, but seem to recall that both top & bottom UJs have to be connected in a certain way. Were the UJ's alignment part of your problem and did you ever completely cure your uneven steering feel?

Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 25/10/20 05:19 PM

Hi Rob, I think this thread could be of some help.
http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/615088/finally-i-have-a-smooth-steering#Post615088

If you have any further questions, I will gladly try to answer them.

BTW, I have left all with original parts as it works fine in my case, but alternatively I have learned that Cain at Wolf Performance offers his own U joints and a very good alignment at the first joint after the steering rack, just in case. I have no relationship with WP, I am just a happy customer.
Posted By: RobCol

Re: Uneven steering feel - 27/10/20 05:27 PM


Thanks Heinz

Did you realign the UJ forks yourself and if so is it just a matter of disconnecting the UJ under the bonnet and aligning the UJ forks with the UJ under the dashboard and then taking the steering wheel boss off and refitting the steering wheel so the steering wheel spokes are level?
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 27/10/20 05:53 PM

Rob, I did it exactly the way you describe it. Of course you first may have a look if this topic is the culprit before you disconnect the U joint under the bonnet. You can see the most upper U joint when removing the lower half of the shroud. Let us know if this was the issue. Also have a look at the very first U joint just following the steering rack. When I remember it right this was also possible to be disconnected, just in case it should not be properly aligned.
Posted By: RobCol

Re: Uneven steering feel - 28/10/20 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Heinz
Hi Rob, I think this thread could be of some help.
http://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/615088/finally-i-have-a-smooth-steering#Post615088

If you have any further questions, I will gladly try to answer them.


Hi Heinz


Just a couple of questions.

On your photos in the link above of the UJ under the Steering wheel and UJ next to the bulkhead, are the photos after you had corrected / realigned the UJ's?

I understand that all 4 UJ's have to be aligned in line + + + + . I also understand the UJ under the steering wheel should be horizontal in the + position so the wheel can be adjusted up and down without stress. So am I right in thinking that it doesn't matter which UJ you start realigning as long as they are all horizontal + + + + ?

On my car from the steering wheel it is + + x x so its the last 2 that may need realigning?
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 29/10/20 12:08 AM

Rob, first of all, apologize for my awkward and edgy English. Especially when it comes to mechanical descriptions...even if I use in such cases the help of www.deepl.com. A help but not always delivering the final text I put in.
The summary first, after I wrote everything below. All U joints must be in the same alignment. The starting position to the steering wheel is "in principle" not important. Note: the second rod after the steering wheel which we can see under the bonnet is a three-dimensional special case, more on this below.

My two photos of the first two rods with their U joints, which you mentioned, should show how it is put together correctly. Let me put it this way. Each U Joint connection must be such that the input on one side and the output on the other side must match in orientation. So about like this:
-–|–––––––|—
At least in principle it doesn't really matter in which position the first U joint is at the beginning of the steering wheel. Imagine it like this: If it was important that the first U joint is horizontal to the steering wheel, then it would be a thought that it might be harder to put the steering wheel up and down if you turn the steering wheel by 45 degrees. But even then you have to be able to put it up and down just as easily...not only when you turn it straight. In everyday life, you wouldn't think twice about adjusting the height of the steering wheel in any position. The only important thing is that the U Joints are correct in themselves.

The second rod, which is directly connected to the first rod coming from the steering wheel in the engine compartment, is a special feature. It is a three-dimensional configuration as you can see in your link of my post in the third schematic blue picture.That's why in this case the U joints are fixed at both ends and can't be changed in the odd alignment. In other words, here the U joints are twisted in themselves and that must be the case. But afterwards downstream to the rack everything has to be put together again in a straight alignment, like at the beginning, because there are again only two-dimensional joints.

I did not really understand your symbols with the + and x. I suppose + means horizontal and x means vertical? It is important that every entrance (the first link) and every exit (the last link) are in the same plane. Consequently, the two inner links are offset 90 degrees to the outer links, but also in one plane to each other. (except for the second fixed and twisted special rod).

Now comes some fine tuning. Even though all the rods/U joints are finally in tune, the Morgan steering is not quite even (but much better than with wrong connection angles).
So it makes sense to try out that any resistance is distributed symmetrically when you turn the steering wheel to the left or right. For example at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock resistance is better than at 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock. But this does not mean urgently, that the first U joint upstream is horizontally to the straight orientated steering wheel. It may be but it must not.
So if all U joints are correct, you can align the whole connection by turning it after disconnecting the whole thing at the top of the steering wheel and at the bottom of the rack and pinion steering in a way that any irregularities are distributed symmetrically. This is a bit of a try and error.

To your question, regardless which u joint is wrong aligned it needs a realigning. If none of this should help yet, contact Cain at Wolf Performance. He has a higher quality U joint in his program for the last connection to the rack and pinion steering downstream. I don't have it yet, but I could perhaps buy and replace it to make everything even smoother...the last 10%.

Posted By: RobCol

Re: Uneven steering feel - 29/10/20 08:00 AM

Hi Heinz

Thanks for the further clarification, not easy on a technical subject in another language!

What I meant by + + + + is that the 'crosses' or 'spiders' of all 4 of the UJs line up if you were looking along the steering shaft. If I had + x + +, then the second UJ is at 45% to the others.

The uneven steering feel on my car is only really noticeable with the wheels off. It hadn't bothered me as I was told 'they all do that'. It was only my local garage / MOT tester who said it wasn't right.

I think I will take the car back to the local garage to check if something is obviously wrong. It would appear as you say that there is some trial and error involved and the main problem to me is the design of the routing of the steering shaft which makes 4 UJs necessary rather than the ideal which would be to only have one.
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 29/10/20 10:20 AM

Hi Rob, Yes, your garage should take a close look at the U joints...also the connection in the metal box, which is mounted outside in the front wheel arch. But if you see that the U joints are somewhere out of alignment, I would let correct it. The feeling in the steering wheel is an important part of the driving pleasure for me.

Here is a picture how the special case, our second rod is intentionally designed in the Morgan. Have a look at the inner forks, they are twisted. But everything uptream and downstream of this rod must be aligned +++ on each side of this twisted fork.

[Linked Image]

My guess, why there are so many U joints, a) there is no room for a direct connection, and b) it is a safety concept. We do not have a telescopic steering column in the Morgan. Alternatively, the U joints in the wheelhouse will buckle. This way we don't impale ourselves on the steering wheel in a crash, as it was the case with very old cars.
Posted By: RobCol

Re: Uneven steering feel - 29/10/20 11:37 AM


Originally Posted by Heinz


Here is a picture how the special case, our second rod is intentionally designed in the Morgan. Have a look at the inner forks, they are twisted. But everything uptream and downstream of this rod must be aligned +++ on each side of this twisted fork.

[Linked Image]

My guess, why there are so many U joints, a) there is no room for a direct connection, and b) it is a safety concept. We do not have a telescopic steering column in the Morgan. Alternatively, the U joints in the wheelhouse will buckle. This way we don't impale ourselves on the steering wheel in a crash, as it was the case with very old cars.


Hi Heinz

Thanks I see what you mean now about the second rod having differently aligned inner joints / forks, and I agree on the possible reasons for 4 UJ's but it does complicate things! The more UJ's The more chance of misalignment and uneven steering feel.
Posted By: RobCol

Re: Uneven steering feel - 31/10/20 02:46 PM

Hi Heinz

Checked the UJ under the steering wheel and the one next to the bulkhead and the UJ forks are roughly in line.

Then I took the box off the inner wing/valance that covers the UJ where it passes through the inner wing. Looking at the photos the UJ inner forks near the inner wing are vertical but on the UJ near the steering rack the forks are at about 30 degrees to the forks on the UJ near the inner wing. Does this look like it may be my problem?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Heinz

Re: Uneven steering feel - 31/10/20 05:25 PM

Rob, that could be the issue. I would realign it and give the chance a try and see if there is an improvement. 30 degrees is significant.
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