Talk Morgan

Battery...Again!

Posted By: Peter J

Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 02:01 PM

In April 2019 I replaced the original Banner battery, it was 5 years old, so a reasonable life.

The new battery was a YUSA HSB075, from Halfords, with a 5 year guarantee.
In October it was going flat regularly, alternator charging properly, so Halfords replaced it, under warranty.
Now, a year later, it is holding charge for no more than a week, today after 8 days in the garage it is showing 6.2v, so on charge again.

Back to Halfords, but I'm getting a mite fed up with this. I'll get Williams to check the charging rate and voltage, I can't believe that the car is pulling any power with the ignition off: the only device that is "always on" is the radio, it needs a non switched power line to retain station memory.

Any thoughts, collective?
Posted By: xc68anc

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 02:09 PM

If your MOG has the factoryfitted immobilizer that‘s the problem.

The factory itself writes in the manual „if the car is out of use for more than three! days connect it to a charger.

My BANNER battery does her work after two years with a time out of use for a week.

My expierence with cheap batteries is very worse. They would work in a daily, but not under „toy conditions“.

René
Posted By: RobCol

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 02:15 PM


Although Yusa appear to be a good quality battery, I would go back to Halfords and ask them to replace it with another make a offer to pay the difference if necessary.

Wouldn't Halfords be able to check your alternator was charging properly?
Posted By: John V6

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 02:38 PM

Ages ago my wife's Golf did this. We found an earth leakage on the headlight switch.
Good luck as this stuff is very hard to find. We only discovered it when the switch failed & the problem stopped.
Do you have a trickle charger? That might help
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 02:49 PM

The car has no immobiliser...
I think the next step is to charge the battery and turn off the "master switch", all Aero 4s have this on the front of the electronics box.
If the battery still discharges it is the battery and yes, I'll go back to Halfords. But if it stays charged then it is a "car issue".....
It is booked into Williams next month for Service, MOT, etc, so they can see what they can find...

Joy.
Posted By: tmg513

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 03:05 PM

Disconnect the negative terminal on the battery and bridge it with an ammeter to find if there's a drain.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 04:36 PM

Or you could find the keep alive fuse(s) for the ECU or BCU. Remove and put your ammeter set to 10A range across the socket(s). You might be surprised innocent

ETA: if the battery has been allowed to drain to an incredibly low six volts it will have taken a fair chunk of its life due to sulphation. It might not even take a charge now. Whatever, I would keep quiet about that if looking for a replacement from Halfords.

Note also it's the battery that determines the charge current. The alternator is just regulated to a max voltage - you should be seeing at least 14.4 volts on a near fully charged battery at a fast idle, measured at the battery terminals ideally.

Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 05:27 PM

I have a clip on current meter that plugs into my Fluke which is worth purchasing for your workshop they are very handy bits of kit, far safer than disconnecting batteries and taking fuses out and it is a perfect interface/buffer for your meter.

Or this sort of stand alone device.
Posted By: DavidR

Re: Battery...Again! - 23/10/20 07:38 PM

Peter, I have been told that if you store your ignition key to close to the vehicle when not in use, then some part of the electrical system doesn't shut down fully. I'm an electrical numpty so can't comment directly, but find it helps with mine to keep the two apart. I had no success with a Ctek and have reverted to a Halfords smart charger, which so far works a treat and keeps it starting happily.
Posted By: Saxonian

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by DavidR
had no success with a Ctek and have reverted to a Halfords smart charger, which so far works a treat and keeps it starting happily.



Oh don't say that .... I just ordered one last night.......... frown
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 07:32 AM

No problem with my CTek smile
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by +8Rich
I have a clip on current meter that plugs into my Fluke which is worth purchasing for your workshop


What's a Fluke, Richard?
Posted By: Gordon D

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 07:38 AM

Nor mine, 3 yrs old and used constantly. Still working perfectly.😀
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
No problem with my CTek smile


Or mine, must be 10 years old now and still working perfectly.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Saxonian
Originally Posted by DavidR
had no success with a Ctek and have reverted to a Halfords smart charger, which so far works a treat and keeps it starting happily.



Oh don't say that .... I just ordered one last night.......... frown

Ctek established themselves as the go to brand many years ago. Unfortunately price aside, they are now a little dated. This Maypole is half the price with updated features and useful permanent battery hookup.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 08:03 AM

I have used a CTEK for 20 years plus with no issues and batteries lasting over 7 years.
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by +8Rich
I have a clip on current meter that plugs into my Fluke which is worth purchasing for your workshop


What's a Fluke, Richard?

Multimeter Tim - though Fluke make many kinds of instrumentation smile
Posted By: PeterG

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 08:45 AM

Always used Ctek on the Morgan, never had an issue and now have an Optimate for the Lotus as it came with it and has a dedicated lead in the boot.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 09:41 AM

CTek has worked well for me. Plus 8 with Odyssey battery that was on the car when I bought it 8 years ago. Put on by previous owner so actual age not known. . I use dedicated connectors on the battery rather than the power socket hidden in the glovebox. What an annoying place to put it! The only issue is with the mode button to select the output. It can be temperamental and is a known weakness. It is a plastic button that pushes down on a microswitch inside. The pin part of the button seems to wear and thus not long enough to guarantee good pressure in the microswitch. If it gets to be a problem I will sort out a fix.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by +8Rich
I have a clip on current meter that plugs into my Fluke which is worth purchasing for your workshop


What's a Fluke, Richard?

Multimeter Tim - though Fluke make many kinds of instrumentation smile


Aha! Thanks Graham. I have a simple clip-on ammeter to detect current in cables and my multi-meter does accurate low current readings, but I thought I had a new tool-buying opportunity! smile
Posted By: Ray

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by RobCol

Although Yusa appear to be a good quality battery, I would go back to Halfords and ask them to replaced and. it with another make a offer to pay the difference if necessary.

Wouldn't Halfords be able to check your alternator was charging properly?

I've never had a yusa battery fail under six years on any car. Don't have a ctek some times use a cheap solar charger.
This car has an immobillser , but the battery starts it after weeks of standing idle.
Posted By: Deejay

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by +8Rich
I have a clip on current meter that plugs into my Fluke which is worth purchasing for your workshop


What's a Fluke, Richard?

Multimeter Tim - though Fluke make many kinds of instrumentation smile


Aha! Thanks Graham. I have a simple clip-on ammeter to detect current in cables and my multi-meter does accurate low current readings, but I thought I had a new tool-buying opportunity! smile

You may have a buying opportunity after all.
Many simple clip on ammeters may only measure a.c. A clue is that the jaws will have bare metal ends where they firmly meet when clamped. To measure D.C. you need one that works on the principle of the “Hall Effect“. With these, the cut end of the jaws are insulated so don’t fully close together. [for those who wish to know...Hall Effect is if a magnetic field is applied perpendicular to current flowing in a conductor, a voltage is produced transversely to current flow. That voltage, which may only be of the order of mV is measured by the multimeter and can be converted into a measure of amps. Edwin Hall 1879]
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 03:40 PM

OK, I have charged the battery, I have a "RING" model charger.
The battery shows 13.3v on both the car display and my external meter.
Starting the engine the alternator is delivering 14.2v.

Tomorrow I'll see if the charge level has decreased and if there is any current flowing, as TMG suggested.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 04:19 PM

Peter, if you prove there is a significant static current drain and you are only concerned with radio memory, a fused feed from the main forward battery stud (live side of the 150 amp breaker) could be routed to keep alive on radio (pin 3 on power connector). This would allow you to trip breaker when car not in use for any period without loosing radio settings.

On my Roadster the same radio power also feeds the clock, so it may be worthwhile including that as well.

Better of course to find the excessive current drain if it's proven.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 05:57 PM

Richard,

thanks for the suggestions.
No clock, so not an issue....

Or I could buy a new head unit that doesn't need a continuous power supply.... !
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 24/10/20 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J

Or I could buy a new head unit that doesn't need a continuous power supply.... !


This might be a daft idea, but could it be cheaper maybe to buy a small 12V power pack with the output connected to the head unit and the input wired to a switched live feed. That way it would keep the head unit alive when the car's parked and the power pack would be recharged when driving. So long as you had a power pack with sufficient capacity to keep the radio fed for the longest period you would leave the car without either driving it or plugging in a battery conditioner you should be fine.
Posted By: tmg513

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/10/20 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Hamwich
Originally Posted by Peter J

Or I could buy a new head unit that doesn't need a continuous power supply.... !


This might be a daft idea, but could it be cheaper maybe to buy a small 12V power pack with the output connected to the head unit and the input wired to a switched live feed. That way it would keep the head unit alive when the car's parked and the power pack would be recharged when driving. So long as you had a power pack with sufficient capacity to keep the radio fed for the longest period you would leave the car without either driving it or plugging in a battery conditioner you should be fine.

That's surely trying to cure the symptoms rather than the disease.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/10/20 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by tmg513

That's surely trying to cure the symptoms rather than the disease.


True Dat.
Posted By: Alexander

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/10/20 03:18 PM

After getting through several batteries bought from Halfords, I went for a Optima Red Top bought on eBay (new).

It has not let me down in 10 years.

One of the times the battery failed, I drove home from work perfectly fine. Stopped briefly at home, then when I jumped back in the car... Nothing.
Measured the battery, 2V. I suppose a cell's connection had failed.

I'm guessing that Morgans have a significantly different vibration profile to standard cars, and this causes frequent failures. So far, the spiral AGM battery has been perfect.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 11:02 AM

Update:

I disconnected the battery, so no connection to the car. After 36 hours in "Recovery Mode" on the Ring Charger It will not go above 60% charge.
So my conclusion is that the battery has developed a fault.
Back to Halfords. The only battery they stock that fits the Plus 8 is the one I have: there are no other options. I paid £71.00 in April 2019, it was replaced for the same reason a year ago.
Third time lucky?

Or should I cut my losses and get a substitute: because of the way the battery is fitted in the Aero Plus 8 there are limitations on size, in particular the Optima Red Top is too long: the maximum is 242mm, the red top is 254. The best candidate seems to be an Odyssey model.
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 11:35 AM

Odyssey or try a Varta.

Expect over ten years life.

I had a BL Unipart battery on my MGB - guaranteed as long as you keep your car. They didn't figure 22 years and after about six batteries, they stopped the deal.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Update:

I disconnected the battery, so no connection to the car. After 36 hours in "Recovery Mode" on the Ring Charger It will not go above 60% charge.
So my conclusion is that the battery has developed a fault.
Back to Halfords. The only battery they stock that fits the Plus 8 is the one I have: there are no other options. I paid £71.00 in April 2019, it was replaced for the same reason a year ago.
Third time lucky?

Or should I cut my losses and get a substitute: because of the way the battery is fitted in the Aero Plus 8 there are limitations on size, in particular the Optima Red Top is too long: the maximum is 242mm, the red top is 254. The best candidate seems to be an Odyssey model.


So the battery is cream crackered although not surprising considering its open circuit voltage dropped to six! Although lead/acid batteries don't have a memory per se there is a scenario where they are regularly re-charged to only say 90% and they end up with 90% of 90% capacity and so forth in a downward spiral.

My own view is that a good brand such as Varta suggested by DaveW, will last for many years if treated well, but so will many others, again if treated well. Very expensive exotic brands may last longer still but in so doing leave you with marginal capacity for longer towards their inevitable and extended end of life.

"Treating well" means using regularly with an easy starting engine, and journeys long enough to fully re-charge. Not flattening whilst attempting to start a faulty engine. Being left permanently on smart charger/conditioner when not in use for more than a couple of weeks commensurate with re-cycling charger every two to three weeks if it doesn't do this automatically.

Pointless doing any further tests until you have a new replacement, but important to determine the level of static drain and reduce/eradicate once you have determined what's causing it. FWIW I would be tempted to stick with a new Halford's one whilst you sort the issue.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 02:09 PM

If you can get your money back a swap might be better. I have Halfords worked fine . So maybe 3rd time lucky.
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 02:55 PM

Not sure if this relevant, but on the disco3 forum that I frequent from time to time, there was a thread on batteries. The original L-R item seems to last 7-9 years (my disco 4 is just 8 years old and still on the original). Halfords batteries last a lot less than half that time in the Disco.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 03:31 PM

Halfords changed the battery without any discussion. Well Done Halfords!

Installing the battery I connected an ammeter between the negative pole and the ground cable.
1.2A with the ignition off.
Clearly something is wrong... it was associated with what sounded like a relay cycling inside the electronics box.
I think this is something for an auto electrician, it is beyond me....!

For now, I'll leave the car connected to the charger....
Posted By: Paul F

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 03:36 PM

Hunting around, consensus seems to be that anything in excess of 50mA is too much.
Good luck with finding the fault.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Halfords changed the battery without any discussion. Well Done Halfords!

Installing the battery I connected an ammeter between the negative pole and the ground cable.
1.2A with the ignition off.
Clearly something is wrong... it was associated with what sounded like a relay cycling inside the electronics box.
I think this is something for an auto electrician, it is beyond me....!

For now, I'll leave the car connected to the charger....

Good call Peter, with both confirming an excessive discharge and Halfords service. 48 hours with that discharge, assuming constant, would have a Mog sized, new fully charged battery completly flat within 48 hours! It definately needs attending to a.s.a.p. if only because that amount of energy is being dissipated, probably locally, as heat!

Suggest popping that 150 amp breaker in the meantime when not in use.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Richard Wood
Originally Posted by Peter J
Halfords changed the battery without any discussion. Well Done Halfords!

Installing the battery I connected an ammeter between the negative pole and the ground cable.
1.2A with the ignition off.
Clearly something is wrong... it was associated with what sounded like a relay cycling inside the electronics box.
I think this is something for an auto electrician, it is beyond me....!

For now, I'll leave the car connected to the charger....

Good call Peter, with both confirming an excessive discharge and Halfords service. 48 hours with that discharge, assuming constant, would have a Mog sized, new fully charged battery completely flat within 48 hours! It definitely needs attending to a.s.a.p. if only because that amount of energy is being dissipated, probably locally, as heat!

Suggest popping that 150 amp breaker in the meantime when not in use.


Richard,
I did that, but the drain is still there and the relay cycling sound didn't go away, which is why I took both connections off the battery and tried to recover it.
Talking to Tony at Williams he said that the Aeros with the 4.8L motor all draw about 500mA with the ignition off, so something isn't right.

Anyway, the car is connected to a Ring Charger on "maintenance mode", I don't want to damage this battery.

Peter
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Talking to Tony at Williams he said that the Aeros with the 4.8L motor all draw about 500mA with the ignition off, so something isn't right.



Even half an amp sounds like an awful lot to me, do the equivalent BMW cars with the same engine do the same, or is it something MMC have done that causes it?
Posted By: tmg513

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Halfords changed the battery without any discussion. Well Done Halfords!

Installing the battery I connected an ammeter between the negative pole and the ground cable.
1.2A with the ignition off.
Clearly something is wrong... it was associated with what sounded like a relay cycling inside the electronics box.
I think this is something for an auto electrician, it is beyond me....!

For now, I'll leave the car connected to the charger....

Was that immediately after switching the car off? It can take some time for various modules like the ECU to power off. Are you positive there isn't a tracker fitted? My son's car had had a black box fitted and not removed by a previous owner. When its internal battery ran out it drew off the main battery and drained it after a few days.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 05:18 PM

Peter, I'll be meeting Steve (madmax) tomorrow, he of the Green Godess Plus 8, so will raise the subject.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 05:22 PM



Originally Posted by tmg513
Originally Posted by Peter J
Halfords changed the battery without any discussion. Well Done Halfords!

Installing the battery I connected an ammeter between the negative pole and the ground cable.
1.2A with the ignition off.
Clearly something is wrong... it was associated with what sounded like a relay cycling inside the electronics box.
I think this is something for an auto electrician, it is beyond me....!

For now, I'll leave the car connected to the charger....

Was that immediately after switching the car off? It can take some time for various modules like the ECU to power off. Are you positive there isn't a tracker fitted? My son's car had had a black box fitted and not removed by a previous owner. When its internal battery ran out it drew off the main battery and drained it after a few days.


I assumed no tracker as I bought the car from Morgan Motor Company.... now you have me wondering.

The relay cycling noise occured 2 days after removing the battery connections. When I re-connected the battery and put the Ammeter in circuit I got this strange noise.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Richard Wood
Peter, I'll be meeting Steve (madmax) tomorrow, he of the Green Goddess Plus 8, so will raise the subject.



Richard,
appreciated, give my regards to Steve.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/10/20 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by DaveW
Odyssey or try a Varta.

Expect over ten years life.

I had a BL Unipart battery on my MGB - guaranteed as long as you keep your car. They didn't figure 22 years and after about six batteries, they stopped the deal.


laugh2 Trust a Yorkshire lad to fully exploit an extended warranty thumbs
Posted By: DavidR

Re: Battery...Again! - 30/10/20 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J


Originally Posted by tmg513
Originally Posted by Peter J
Halfords changed the battery without any discussion. Well Done Halfords!

Installing the battery I connected an ammeter between the negative pole and the ground cable.
1.2A with the ignition off.
Clearly something is wrong... it was associated with what sounded like a relay cycling inside the electronics box.
I think this is something for an auto electrician, it is beyond me....!

For now, I'll leave the car connected to the charger....

Was that immediately after switching the car off? It can take some time for various modules like the ECU to power off. Are you positive there isn't a tracker fitted? My son's car had had a black box fitted and not removed by a previous owner. When its internal battery ran out it drew off the main battery and drained it after a few days.


I assumed no tracker as I bought the car from Morgan Motor Company.... now you have me wondering.

The relay cycling noise occured 2 days after removing the battery connections. When I re-connected the battery and put the Ammeter in circuit I got this strange noise.



Peter, I've had a clicking from around the passenger dash area when the ignition was off and key out, turned out to be the boot was unlatched.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 31/10/20 05:16 PM

David,

no boot on a Plus 8!!
Posted By: DavidR

Re: Battery...Again! - 31/10/20 08:59 PM

Doh!

Then there's your problem!!! hide
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Battery...Again! - 31/10/20 09:01 PM

Perhaps it needs a "reboot" goodnight
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 19/11/20 02:04 PM

Update....

Since driving up to Williams for the annual service the car has sat in the garage for 7 days.
The battery has lost only 5% of its charge and is showing 12.9v.
In the past the battery was golding charge for only 2 or 3 days.
So why the improvement?

My conclusion is that over the last 12 months the car has not had any good, long runs and the car needs these to charge properly.
So, COVID has damaged my Plus 8..... oldgit
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Battery...Again! - 19/11/20 04:09 PM

So long as it doesn't start coughing and developing breathing difficulties Peter! smile
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 19/11/20 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Graham, G4FUJ
So long as it doesn't start coughing and developing breathing difficulties Peter! smile


If it does I'll order a home test, but I do wonder where I'd take the sample from!!

Slightly more seriously, it is clear that the Aero S4 based cars need regular significant exercise to be in prime condition.

Peter
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Battery...Again! - 19/11/20 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Update....

My conclusion is that over the last 12 months the car has not had any good, long runs and the car needs these to charge properly.
So, COVID has damaged my Plus 8..... oldgit


FWIW I think it's your short daily trips to the livery yard with the bail onboard that's doing it - you will have to make sure you turn it into a 20 mile round trip wink
You could always put them in the back of the Sprinter wink if you don't fancy that.

Over time the battery is slowly but surely being discharged without proper replenishment, I've seen this happen before.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 19/11/20 06:10 PM

Richard,

agreed, I need a good run out every week!
So does the Morgan....
Posted By: Ray

Re: Battery...Again! - 19/11/20 09:32 PM

Peter, don't think that's a good result for a Modern car. There should be a better answer.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 20/11/20 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ray
Peter, don't think that's a good result for a Modern car. There should be a better answer.


The 2 Mercedes cars can sit for a month and still start.

According to Williams Morgan the Aero cars run an "ignition off" drain of almost 0.5a... unless you turn off the "master switch" under the bonnet: all well and good, but then the radio loses its station memory and you can't run a trickle charger through the under dash socket. It has to be hard wired to the battery.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Battery...Again! - 20/11/20 04:54 PM

Peter, hard wire a charger connection to the battery. I have done this on my car with a Ctek unit. I used the connection wires supplied with ready fitted connectors The power socket is inside the glove box! Why? Stupid location requiring either moving or altering wiring . To use it you either keep the box door open or route a connection round and into the back of the glovebox from under the dash. Depending on the fit, the push in plug can be a bit unreliable as well. It is actually just ( I find it easier) as easy to connect up by lifting the bonnet. If you use a car cover then just lower the bonnet. On a trad the gap to the wing is plenty big enough for wires. (Humongous gap!)
Posted By: tmg513

Re: Battery...Again! - 20/11/20 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Ray
Peter, don't think that's a good result for a Modern car. There should be a better answer.


The 2 Mercedes cars can sit for a month and still start.

According to Williams Morgan the Aero cars run an "ignition off" drain of almost 0.5a... unless you turn off the "master switch" under the bonnet: all well and good, but then the radio loses its station memory and you can't run a trickle charger through the under dash socket. It has to be hard wired to the battery.


That's a massive drain. Did they suggest which component is the culprit?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 21/11/20 07:45 AM

No, I was told that there are a number of electronic modules that remain live, which is why MMC installed the master switch.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 21/11/20 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Ray
Peter, don't think that's a good result for a Modern car. There should be a better answer.


The 2 Mercedes cars can sit for a month and still start.

According to Williams Morgan the Aero cars run an "ignition off" drain of almost 0.5a... unless you turn off the "master switch" under the bonnet: all well and good, but then the radio loses its station memory and you can't run a trickle charger through the under dash socket. It has to be hard wired to the battery.


Sorry but I don't accept a "they all do it" argument. That magnitude of standing current drain assuming constant, would never be acceptable by design and Williams should know better. Indeed it would qualify such a vehicle as not fit for purpose. It will reduce a typical new batteries full charge to 50% in less than 60 hrs. This is the generally accepted maximum discharge for a starter battery beyond which its longevity is noticeably reduced. It needs investigating by a professional.

Sorry again, but I wouldn't be complacent to your new batteries performance so far. Unless you have changed something electrically the battery demise will happen again if the car is used under the same regime. I know you are now more vigilant to this issue but popping that breaker every time after use of car should not be necessary. It would never have been designed and fitted as a regular use switch as its simply an overload breaker not a master switch! This setting aside the inconvenience of its use.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Battery...Again! - 21/11/20 12:33 PM

OK....do BMW that use the same engine do the same? I doubt it!
How have MMC altered the installation away from BMW standard to suit what is a different car?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 21/11/20 01:08 PM

The car uses a BMW engine and gearbox, plus power steering and A/C.
The various control modules are modified by MMC and they are wired into a CANBUS loom from a 1990s BMW 3 series, I understand.
The V8 was never installed into the 3 series, so there are MMC adaptations to the CANBUS Loom so that the engine can talk to the Morgan instruments and work with the Morgan ABS and Morgan airbags.
It is, in all honesty, a bit of a dog's dinner.

I don't think MMC has ever understood why the car drains power so, I was told that the Manual cars don't, so I assume that it is something to do with the Auto Box/Paddle shift control modules.
It isn't right and if it was a mainstream manufacture I'd expect answers.
But it is Morgan.and essentially a car that was developed in the early 2000s: with a charger I can live with it.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Battery...Again! - 21/11/20 05:09 PM

Could you run a separate (in-line fused) live feed to the radio, to keep it alive even if you turn off the master switch ?
Posted By: +8Rich

Re: Battery...Again! - 21/11/20 06:25 PM

Jon, that's how both of my Plus 8's were wired which makes sense to me.
The 4/4 Sport didn't but no radio or Master switch until I fitted the later.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Battery...Again! - 21/11/20 10:42 PM

Do the new CX Morgans have any similar issues?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 22/11/20 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by sospan
Do the new CX Morgans have any similar issues?


A good question... !!
Next question.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Battery...Again! - 22/11/20 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by sospan
Do the new CX Morgans have any similar issues?

I think as the years roll by, lots of CX owners will have electrical gremlins frown
Posted By: DavidR

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
I don't think MMC has ever understood why the car drains power so, I was told that the Manual cars don't, so I assume that it is something to do with the Auto Box/Paddle shift control modules


My manual does the same, so on a conditioner all the time. Dogs dinner it is.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 12:51 PM

It is nice to know I'm not alone..... swear hide
Posted By: John V6

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 03:18 PM

It is a feature sir
Posted By: sospan

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 04:41 PM

Everyone knows MMC use cheaper alternatives. They appear to be putting cheap electrons into the cars.
Posted By: Deejay

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by sospan
Everyone knows MMC use cheaper alternatives. They appear to be putting cheap electrons into the cars.

Probably those free electrons we’ve heard about...maybe they are trying to conduct themselves better?😬
Posted By: DaveW

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 05:22 PM

My Plus 4 Trad lose charge in a week or so. But my Roadster will hold charge for weeks and weeks.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 06:44 PM

Dave,
that is weird!
Now you mention it Aldermog, our S2 Roadster, held charge like a modern car, rather than a Morgan!
Posted By: John V6

Re: Battery...Again! - 25/11/20 07:11 PM

My Roadster always seems fine, though I do trickle charge it anyway every so often.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Battery...Again! - 26/11/20 12:11 AM

My Plus8 holds a charge well. Odyssey battery that is at least 8 years old and is usually kept on a Ctek. When not the battery has kept its charge. The only drain is from the immobiliser.
Posted By: IvorMog

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/11/20 09:22 AM

My oldish Banner battery seems to hold at between 12.6v and 12.7v for weeks although I sometimes put it on a Ctek especially in this colder weather.

However I have removed the immobiliser and I always turn off the battery isolator switch if the car is left for more than a couple of days.

Possibly a stupid question to the more electrically minded amongst you but to check residual current draw do I simply disconnect the earth lead and run the multimeter between the lead and the battery negative terminal?
Posted By: tmg513

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/11/20 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by IvorMog
Possibly a stupid question to the more electrically minded amongst you but to check residual current draw do I simply disconnect the earth lead and run the multimeter between the lead and the battery negative terminal?

Yes, just do that and put an ammeter across it.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/11/20 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by IvorMog
My oldish Banner battery seems to hold at between 12.6v and 12.7v for weeks although I sometimes put it on a Ctek especially in this colder weather.

However I have removed the immobiliser and I always turn off the battery isolator switch if the car is left for more than a couple of days.

Possibly a stupid question to the more electrically minded amongst you but to check residual current draw do I simply disconnect the earth lead and run the multimeter between the lead and the battery negative terminal?

Bear in mind the standing voltage of a battery after an hour or so of use gives an indication only of the state of charge of the remaining capacity left in it. Towards end of practical life a high voltage reading may not indicate enough energy to start engine, with natural discharge having an ever increasing effect on voltage measured some time later.

Regarding measuring standing current draw make sure you initially use the 10 amp range available on most multi-meters to avoid damage. If current draw is too low to measure you can then try a more sensitive range.
Posted By: IvorMog

Re: Battery...Again! - 27/11/20 01:53 PM

Thanks for the info about the residual current measurement.

Mine has a 15A reading and then the next step down is 200mA.

Also I have to use a different connector on the multimeter for the 15A setting and only use the other for mA readings.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 10:39 AM

Update: 4 December 20

I haven't used Tarka for 8 or 9 days. When I parked the battery voltage was 12.6v.
Today it was 12.3v
So, I'm beginning to believe that the battery I had was faulty: this on holds its charge.
When it is at 12v I'll either drive the car or put the charger on.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Update: 4 December 20

I haven't used Tarka for 8 or 9 days. When I parked the battery voltage was 12.6v.
Today it was 12.3v
So, I'm beginning to believe that the battery I had was faulty: this on holds its charge.
When it is at 12v I'll either drive the car or put the charger on.



Is there a reason why you don't simply leave the car hooked up to the battery conditioner when you put it in the garage? Mine's on all the time when I'm not using it.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 10:50 AM

Idleness, to be honest.
Posted By: John V6

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 11:34 AM

Glad to hear that Peter.
Posted By: sospan

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 11:39 AM

I have only done 1300 miles over the last year (MOT mileages). Covid put the brakes on over the last 9 months but the Ctek has been used plus running the engine at 2 week intervals. No starting problems even with the “ageing” Odyssey battery. I need to put some miles in to keep the brakes/suspension moving.
Posted By: Hamwich

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Idleness, to be honest.


Fair enough. I have a connector plumbed in permanently so it's just a question of plugging in the charger when I get out of the car, takes just a few seconds.
Posted By: CooperMan

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 12:48 PM

Peter your post prompted me to check mine
The Roadster is the late model with BCU, immobiliser & other potential electrickery, has not been on charge for a couple of weeks & shows 12.41v
The over 70yr old F Super shows 12.73v perhaps a credit to simple wiring
Posted By: Image

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 02:06 PM

No doubt battery experts may disagree but I work on battery voltages (battery rested after either charge or significant discharge)

12.8 ish .... fully charged

12.4 ish ..... half charge

12.0 for any length of time .... walking the line of goosing your battery.



K
Posted By: Graham, G4FUJ

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Idleness, to be honest.

And the next post:
Originally Posted by John V6
Glad to hear that Peter.

The secret of good comedy - timing! laugh2
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Update: 4 December 20

I haven't used Tarka for 8 or 9 days. When I parked the battery voltage was 12.6v.
Today it was 12.3v
So, I'm beginning to believe that the battery I had was faulty: this on holds its charge.
When it is at 12v I'll either drive the car or put the charger on.


Sorry Peter that's a bad policy. Leaving a lead/acid battery discharged to almost any degree for a length of time kick-starts the downward spiral of battery degredation through sulphation of the plates. FWIW Lithium Ion batteries on the other hand have best storage life when left in a cool environment charged at 40% of full capacity.

I wouldn't be too complacent about your new battery either. Fair to assume it still has its advertised capacity so it's already lost around 20 amp hours in 9 days, well above typical natural discharge. When the capacity has dropped to say half, the same 20 amp hours discharge will have a far greater effect on remaining charge.

Sorry to be so negative, just telling how it is.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Battery...Again! - 04/12/20 10:18 PM

The battery is now on charge....!! banghead
Posted By: milligoon

Re: Battery...Again! - 11/12/20 11:58 AM

Peter just get a CTEK battery monitor it works over Bluetooth it'll alert you as to when your battery requires attention, when you pass by with your phone.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 11/12/20 12:28 PM

Strictly speaking a lead/acid battery requires attention (i.e. needs charging) the instant it's had some discharge. A battery monitor will only tell you the standing voltage which may be near meaningless if the capacity has dropped to a fraction of new. Some very sophisticated ones do keep a record of capacity based on discharge/charge regimes but very much doubt the Ctek one falls into that category.
Posted By: milligoon

Re: Battery...Again! - 15/12/20 04:37 PM

You set the size of the battery capacity in the set up so there is something it does that takes this into account
Posted By: IvorMog

Re: Battery...Again! - 15/12/20 05:21 PM

Question.

If I connect my multimeter (set to 20v DC) across the battery while the engine is being cranked, will comparing that voltage with the standing voltage give me some idea of the battery condition?

The Ctek I have does something similar but only gives a good / bad indication light.
Posted By: RichardV6

Re: Battery...Again! - 15/12/20 05:30 PM

The problem is Mark, unless your battery is new then how do you know what the capacity is given a batteries capacity will diminish as part of the natural ageing process after the first few charge/discharge cycles confused2

Quality of battery and more particularly how well it's looked after affect the rate at which this capacity diminishes. I've seen good quality batteries ruined in 6 months on a boat due to woefully inadequate charge regimes and at the other end of the scale lasting with useable capacity after 12 years when properly cared for.

Since the voltage measured only gives you an indication of state of charge for the remaining capacity it can only signify the energy remaining if the capacity as input on this device is kept up to date. I hope you can see where this is going since it's difficult to measure capacity without a drainage test under controlled conditions.

ETA: Sorry our posts crossed Bob. Cranking voltage will give some indication of capacity but difficult to quantify given the large number of variables. A drainage test over several hours with a much lighter known load is more meaningful. TBH if you have any doubts about the ability of the battery to start your car and it's more than say five years old then just replace it.
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