Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Classic Morgans (pre-CX) Bonk Goes The Suspension

I went out for a spirited drive today in the sunshine.... At least four times the front suspension bottomed out on depressions on the road (not potholes as I try to avoid them if I can).

The feeling is akin to driving up a kerb with a flat tyre.

Is any damage being done when the suspension 'bonks' like this?

The rear very rarely bottoms.

How old is the car and how many miles has it done, maybe you have a shock absorber issue?

The car is 6 months old and has done 3,000 miles.

Check for evidence of possible tyre contact with the bodywork. I noticed that it has been happening on my car.
Don.

My bet is the diff hitting the parcel tray -- was cured on my 2009 Plus4 by swapping the factory shocks for Rutherford AVO versions.

Cheers!

That is one of the reasons why i have changed the originals shock absorbers for avo's rutherford .

Thierry
4/4 sport 2011

The diff hitting the tool tray certainly makes a bang!
But I've also had an occasional bang from the front, which I've put down to the exhaust catching the chassis. Clearance is very tight and a bit of chassis twist would be enough. The stub axles have a rubber buffer at the top, so not possible to bang, even on full deflection. On overrider cars though, the track rods could touch the bracket (they pass through a hole in the bracket).

It's the front suspension rather than the rear.... and I will check for tyre contact.

Will it cause damage to be bottoming at the front?

Soft springs heavy engine.
I guess Morgan have tried to improve the ride.
Avo's from Mulfab help a lot, but add a heaver spring really stops the banging... But the compromise is a stiffer ride. You can almost stop it with Avo's but the they are not set correctly that's why you need both springs and Shocks (set hard they do not extend fast from compression)

Perhaps you need PJB and Suplex's new rising rate front suspension!!

I wonder if the new Suplex system that's been discussed on other threads might help?

I don't really know much about suspension. I've never had to.

I have had a few nasty shocks in mine, Neil. The other day it crashed so violently that I really thought I had done some damage. It sounded like God's cutlery tray. It was ok though. Experiences like this really do make you think about a suspension upgrade.

Does any one know the part number for the AVO shocks for the front? Their website just shows the Plus 4 and no other models. I am interested for a 2009 Roadster.

You need the Rutherford AVO's - different settings for Morgans.

http://www.newelmsmorgan.com/rutherford-parts.htm

Good results on a 3.0 Roadster with the SUPLEX front suspension. The 3.7 is not that much different so should also work well. PJB.

It's all a bit confusing.... Particularly as I don't really know much about suspension.

The Avo's are a shock absorber replacing the existing ones?

The Suplex is a similar idea which also includes shock absorbers?

Do you think it would help with the bottoming out issue too Mike? Is it adjustable?

Thanks...

How are the tyre pressures?

Tyre pressures are 24psi.

Probably about right Neil.
Are you of a reasonably stout build? If so, you might want a little extra air.
Your car is heavier than mine by a reasonable percentage and I weigh in the region of 130Kg (yes, I need to lose weight - about a third of that! ).
I run 24 front 26 rear for normal road use.

The SUPLEX system offers new matched springs and dampers.
The spring rate starts soft for small deflections to absorb road surface irregularities for a smooth ride. Then on bigger bumps the suspension stiffens to minimise full bump impacts that would otherwise result in hard THUMPS.
Then on cornering the outer wheel suspension stiffens to limit roll, in fact roll stiffness is more than the std set up.
Finally the Bilstein monoshock dampers have been tuned to this suspension and the car to again give good ride but also to control the front of the car on big undulations or sudden lane changes. These Bilsteins have unique characteristics, not off the shelf.
So far response from dealers, specialists and owners have been 100% very favourable across the full range of car ages and models.
If unsure, best to discuss with a dealer and see what they say; Beamish, Melvyn Rutter, Kev Vernon, Mike & Ben Duncan, Williams Morgans, New Elms, Ledgerwood all have 1st hand experience, but others will of course supply and fit.
Regards PJB

The dealer list is growing Peter!

I weight around 100kg and am running 24 all around....

When mine goes in for a service, it is my thinking at the moment to upgrade to the Supex system.... It sounds like it might iron out some of the handling quirks and make it feel a little more stable.

I'm sure the new suspension would give a better ride!

What I have found difficult as a new Morgan owner is knowing what to expect from the suspension. I am sure it's the same with Neil. We are all told that Morgans have a firm ride but some of the shocks and jolts are terrifying for someone used to the ridiculous mattress soft suspension on modern cars. I am not saying that's bad but that we have no benchmark to judge by.

I am keeping an open mind on the Supex system. I am sure it's a great product but I want to see if I can live with the suspension in its natural condition, at least for a while longer, before deciding.

It's not firm... It's the bottoming out that's the problem.

A 458 is firm. A Murcielago is firm..... They never bottom out. Ever.

I think mine has bottomed out on a few occasions. Taking a big pot hole at speed I think I experienced this. It didn't feel good.

Graham, you state; "The dealer list is growing Peter", yes its an absolute pain, driving the test car on sunny days around the dealers and listening to them tell me how good it is ;-)
The roads they find to see if they can bottom out the front end amazes me, thank you Mr. Ayres, I never knew such potholes existed, had to use a ladder to climb out the far side of some!
Happy days - back to cloudy gloom today in the Wolds of Cott. PJB.

My, you have been enjoying yourself!
I bet that was Darren's test route??

Cheers,

I have been told tht if you run over a coin with a Morgan you can tell what side is up.
Ken.
And it´s almost true.

There are some of us who no longer even feel the pebbles we run over! PJB

If you run over a coin in a Morgan, you're likely to end up in the Armco.



Just kidding.

Very interesting post. The more debate I hear on this issue the more favourably I look on the suspension upgrade. As long as no character is lost from the car. But it begs the question - if Morgan have updated everything then why not the suspension. Malvern has shown that they will innovate where required - is there something about the traditional suspension set up that makes it better in the view of Morgan.

I quote from http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Morgan-Plus-8-Road-Test.htm First published Dec 1968.
"The ride? Those concerned with modern suspension systems would no doubt cry from anguish or mirth, if driven fast over rough roads in the Plus-8. On really bad going the car seems to have no springs. In less bad roads it just jumps around and rattles. On main roads it floats along nicely. Trying hard on Welsh mountain passes the Morgan felt less safe than the Gilbern and I would think that a competition driver would lose time when the back-end bounced upwards and sideways and by the front-end suddenly going softish."!

My comments - so the test driver noticed the falling regressive front rate of the rebound spring suddenly going free and the outer wheel dipping - but did not know why. Also the very high initial spring rate (with compressed rebounds) causing the front end to skitter wide. SOME OF THE NEW MORGANS STILL DO! Why?
I tend to think that those at MMC actually prefer a hard stiff jittery ride for the cars, as that is what they have always known - there is still this myth that with a flexible chassis you can not have compliant suspension - but you can with a significant rising rate of course. The guys at MMC do not appear to drive owners' or suppliers' cars where the suspension has been sorted. OK they drove mine with SUPLEX/Bilstein and were impressed enough to try a kit themselves, they have the kit but..............still waiting. Mmmmmm! PJB.

I totally agree with PJB/Mike. There shouldn't be any reason left for MMC to not develop the original suspension and they would keep their word at the same time. The rising rate suspension must be the 'much better' solution that Morgan (C.) said 'must come along' before they change the sliding pillar (hub) system.

Another question folks: if the "sliding pillar" suspension is so good why is it not fitted to the BMW V8 engined cars, and, more to the point why is it not fitted to the three wheeler?

These days the market demands something better. Most modern cars have completely sealed systems that make a grease gun a thing of the past, service intervals are much longer, and people tend to take their cars to a dealer or workshop to have them serviced.

A bit harsh but the vast majority of people don't want a car that can't handle as well as the "shopping trolley", has a harsh ride, and requires getting the hands dirty every few thousand kilometres.

Clearly trad Morgan owners (self included) are the crazy exceptions. But I'm not so crazy that I don't want it to be better. I'm going with the Suplex solution because I am convinced that it offers the best solution to the present problem without completely, and expensively, changing the front end. For future models I really do think it is time Morgan developed a system similar to the Caterham with independent suspension and coil over shocks all round.

Rant over

So why not go to a MacPherson struts on the front, after all that is like a sliding pillar but with the lower end on a wishbone? These have the same stiction problems of bushes sliding on a pin, ok bigger surface areas and less off-set.
Also with the Morgan sliding pillar, why not use lip seals top and bottom of the hub, £2.00 GBP each and the grease stays in a lot longer, but MMC will not even do that - why? Just thoughts.....PJB.

I've said it before....Morgan are not struggling for sales of Traditional cars, even in a recession, so why get rid of what is their heritage...the sliding pillar? Ok.....I do agree that it could be refined along the lines of what PJB suggests (NOT MacPherson strut though...god help us!).

Jay, OK then a 'Chapman strut' at the front then, how about that? Mmmmm? PJB

A Chapman strut requires drive shafts. PJB, are you thinking FWD as well or 4 by 4?

Harald

Chapman strut does not actually require a drive shaft, there is a lower wishbone too so that his drive shaft did not take end load - as on first Elan. So at the front of a Morgan, but swiveling, thus nearly a MacPherson except no nasty ARB of course! PJB

Talking about options, why not the double half elliptic leaf springs from the DKW FA - had many advantages, my late father told me. Quote: "The suspension was as innovative as the transmission being independent using twin transverse leaf springs front and rear of the ladder type chassis" (http://www.lightauto.com/The%20returnofthetwin.html)

I agree. The modification of the sliding pillar system to bring it up to date is fine - not its replacement. That's a step to far.

I do agree

Also, call me a Luddite, but part of the love I have for my 4/4 is the fact that it needs to be looked after. King pins need to be greased, damper blades need cleaning and re-greasing. Doing these things makes the car run better and smoother. I like that input. It makes the 4/4 "my car".

Bud
__________
2003 - 4/4

In 1909 when H.F.S. Morgan adapted the concept of the sliding pillar suspension to his cars it was a brilliant solution to the problem of independent front suspension. The fact that it stood the test of time for the next 50 years is a credit to his inventiveness. By that time better solutions were appearing that functioned better and required less maintenance however Morgan has remained in a time warp. That is both the beauty and the defect of the Morgan.

I'll start by saying that my remarks refer to current and future models. Past models are what they are.

Many on this forum want to maintain the experience of a classic vehicle in its extreme state. The world has however moved on. We now have very much more powerful and efficient engines, better gearboxes and brakes. Emissions are now controlled by law hence fuel injection and computerised control systems. The Roadster, for example now has 300 HP but still has essentially the same suspension system as the 50s 4/4 that developed around 40 HP.

We are talking about a car that has a power to weight ratio of 300 bhp per ton, staggering acceleration, and can't get around a corner as fast as the average (competently driven) family sedan.

Yes it is a buzz to drive, yes it is a challenge, etc, etc. However I would suggest that most new buyers of a Morgan sports car are attracted by the form and style of the car, not the need for a hands on experience, others are prepared to put up with the idiosyncrasies to experience the pleasure of owning a modern classic but many turn away when they find out what Morgan ownership entails. In essence we are talking about cars that have electronic systems difficult or impossible for the ordinary person to service at home, and I suspect few younger buyers would even want to do so. How many of these prospective buyers would even want to own a grease gun?

When upgrading my prevoius plus 8 to 240bhp I made every possible improvement to both suspension and brakes. In my opinion the new Roadster needs a much improved platform to cope with 300bhp.

Peter & Martin make interesting points. I had not considered the handling issues of the high output engines, such as the Roadster; or the attraction to the younger buyer.
With the modest output of my 4/4, I had not experienced the issues that are being discussed. I really enjoy the handling of my car, predictable and fun, with easily induced over-steer.
As for the younger buyers, I am not qualified to comment; other than to observe that my younger friends who are petrol heads have Caterhams. They joke with me that a Morgan, no matter how fast, is in their words (and with some humour) "a car for old duffers"



Bud
__________
2003 - 4/4

Martin (Deano), fascinated by your improvements, can you recall what settings did you use in the dampers then? Did you experiment with bump & rebound ratios as well as high and low speed rates? How about main & rebound spring rates, did you manage to get the rebound really stiff and free of the hub; a lot of work was done on +8 front end 20 years ago by various owners in this area but details are now lost.
I would be interested to know the figures as I am trying to find out what others did years ago, as there if often nothing new in the world. Rising rate mains had been tried before SUPLEX of course by Maurice Owen (1980s) and Colin Musgrove (1990s?, did you try their springs or similar?
Hope you kept the details, love to find out what you did. Thanks in advance ~ PJB.

Hi PJB

Peter Mulberry assisted and not sure of the springs. Vented upgraded discs with bias control, front/rear Koni shocks with upright shocks outside the chassis at the rear, tramp bars, panhard rod, heavy duty reaction bars upper and lower front, negative camber front frame, lowered by 25mm, axle centralised, bonded alloy floor. Still very hard work to drive fast on poor surfaces when compared to the new plus 8.

Martin, thanks for that. Peter Mulberry tends (or at least used to when I discussed this with him) to set his main spring length to still get a compressed rebound to achieve a very high initial rate around 400 lb/inch - that's what he prefers; as opposed to the very low initial rate SUPLEX have achieved around 100 lb/inch that then stiffens up rapidly.
Dampers, I always puzzle about adjustable Konis as they only adjust in rebound. We have found at Bilsteins that one can away with very little low speed rebound damping at the front as the rebound spring absorbs/reflects a lot of the rebounding hub, then use bump damping to manage big bumps and any rebound from the rebound spring.
Things have moved on, albeit slowly - cheers PJB.

Apologies for what will seem like a thread drift, but can someone please let me know the manufacturer of the back axle on the Roadster? I seem to remember it being mentioned in a thread as coming from Australia, but I can't find the information with search! Thanks.

Dana spicer

Dana?.........ah, thats why they sing then!

Diff is from a GM 'ute' built for the Australian market

Thanks Robbie and Richard, that's very helpful. Do either of you have a model number for a Roadster back axle, or do Morgan fit the same model in all the trads?

Brian

I believe that the BTR axle is the same across all the models with just the diff ratios differing dependant on the model. I assume a LSD is fitted to the more powerful models. We can check on Monday on the TM tour Brian.

I believe that the width also varies.

Thanks Jay, I appreciate that. Hope to be in the Works myself on Wednesday afternoon, once we get back from sunnier climes!

Cheers
Brian

I was at the Wiscombe Park hill climb today and was very fortunate to have a long chat with Alan Foster with his 3.9L Plus 8. He has the Suplex suspension upgrade and was very enthusiastic. From my position at the trackside, it certainly seemed to handle very well with little perceptible body roll. It was very nice of him to spend the time chatting and explaining the principles and the theory behind the modifications. Thank you Alan, much appreciated.

Neil

An interesting and useful review. Thank you.

The gears 'sort of' work for me. I don't use 1st for anything other than hill starts - 2nd is my starting gear for pretty much every occasion. Because I have the sports exhaust, 6th is very good at motorway speeds - the exhaust becomes almost silent. A sort of 'double overdrive'.

How interesting that you have no rattles from your engine. According to Morgan they all make the most hideous engine rattle as mine does at anything over about 3750rpm. It's the only thing that is detracting from my ownership experience and I'd love to have it sorted.

I shall have the suspension upgrade later this year....

In general terms, a live axled car needs relatively stiff front springing, and soft rear. And then good shock absorbers.

Woodstock was stiffened at the front as the standard 4/4 springs it had allowed the suspension to hit the bump stops over road imperfections. The stiffer front springs were actually standard +8 springs.

The rear was softened as the action of the anti-tramp bars on the springs is to slightly stiffen them.

Car was more comfortable to drive, and better handling as well.

I'd certainly now be investigating the Suplex option if I still had the 4/4.

Neil

I remember reading somewhere that there might be an issue in some 3.7's with engine noises produced by a fault in the engine management chip and that's why Morgan have now started fitting the full 300 bhp chip instead of the 280 one, which my dealer says has been unsuccessful in limiting the bhp in any event - it seems that the Mustangs can not be held back for love or money.

I think there is a thread here somewhere. It might be the one I started on Roadster changes a few months back.

Might be worth investigating this as the cause of your rattle. If it is you can get the new chip retro fitted.

Mike - thanks for your report. The suspension upgrade looks good. I agree abou Morgan cheapening out on some things. They have always done this and it's quite frustrating. The standard mirrors for instance are very shoddy.

Mike - try and hear before you buy the Librands exhaust. It's quite loud! It's a 'yowl' rather than the thunderous motor launch burble from a V8. If that makes sense - a harsh tone over 4,000rpm. I prefer it, but some might not. If the car is driven at under 4,000rpm it's a deeper and less harsh tone.

The engine rattle has been there since day one and has been raised very early on with the dealer and Morgan themselves. The factory said it was the normal sound for a variable valve engine.... My Ford GT was looked after by Revolve Engineering who, coincidentally, calibrated these engines for Morgan. So I took my Roadster to them and they agreed that the noise is not normal. They rigged the car up to their equipment and 'locked' the variable valves - I drove it, it still made the noise. So we know it's not that. Ginetta racing (who use a similar engine in the Noble) thinks its the duplex timing chain and suggested I should demand a new engine - they also agreed the noise is unacceptable and not normal.

Meanwhile Morgan have shown no interest other than saying 'it's quite normal'. Which is at odds with two quite competent engineering companies and my own ears. It's very frustrating on a brand new £60k car.

David - I've heard rumours of a new chip. Also that it might be the gateway to having an MK dash fitted as the canbus (?) system could be bypassed.

Brian, I asked about the axles on the TM tour today. They use the same axle casing on all the Traditional models and it is only the differential that varies, ratios etc and presumably an LSD on the Roadster. The axles appear to be made in Thailand these days!

Thanks Jay for remembering, you're a STAR!

I'll find out more next week and let you know how I get on. Thanks again.

Cheers
Brian

No probs Brian. I have to say that I'm more than a little intrigued!