Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Morgan Three Wheeler & Super 3 Noisy compensator

The compensator on my car has started to get noisy or at least I take it to be the compensator. I was occasionally getting a rattle at cold start but it would go away. Today at 2800 miles it was rattling at start, but now at town speeds & light load or overrun its rattling. It quietens on load & not noticed it at higher speed.
My car does not have the grease nipple fitted to the compensator. I've contacted the dealer to see if a grease nipple can be fitted. My car No 0757 was built June 2013 I believe. If greasing is not possible or does not stop the rattle I asked cost to me of an upgraded Centa compensator. Can the dealer fit this?

Tim

This sounds very like the dreaded Compensator failure....am afraid it will get worse:(((

Only solution is a new Centra drive. The dealer can fit - it goes into the existing bell housing.

If it is this you may find that the dealer will forgo the pleasure of fitting as it is a very big job and they will never do it in the target amount of time MMC recommend.

Good luck, it may not be that bad.

My dealer did fit a grease nipple and I must say the compensator is transformed. Much less rattles but a new whine, if I may call it that. Maybe the whine was hidden by the old rattles, who knows? Quieter, but not by any means quiet.
It now allows 2200 rpm and above without problems.

It makes a BIG difference.

My car is #674, built i April -13.

Donald
Did you have the Centra compensator fitted with your upgrades? Do you think this is the answer to the compensator problem?

tim

Tim,

yes I had the factory do the upgrades. It seemed a little unfair that they wanted the car back there rather than let the dealer do it.

I had the NVH (IMHO pointless and very expensive) the fan (Good if you are in warm climes or traffic) and the Comfort Pack! They noticed after changing the BB that the compensator was goosed. It needed a quieter BB to hear the bag of spanners moving about. The new Centa is not quiet but maybe better as long as you keep the revs on. I cannot say definitively that it is the answer.

Tim
Don't know of any Centa failures. The Centa does make its own rattles but fewer than the original type and doesn't need the same degree of care when driving to avoid the full on clattering.
Only time and miles will tell if the Centa is as good as it is billed.

My compensator has been quiet up to now.
By the way John Printie has left Revolutions to look after his wife. Kimberly is picking up the phone & doing liason.

Tim

get the centra. as red three states is the only long term solution as the other routes are just bandaids to an inferior setup unfortunately.

Centa is no panacea but an improvement and should last.

I just want to stress that I am quite happy with what ever the grease nipple has done. Wether it lasts I have no idea, I have only done a 1000 km after the upgrade.

As far as I know it was done under warranty.

Is there a tread on where and how to install the compensator grease fitting ?

My compensator was changed last September for one with a grease nipple in. When it starts to get a bit noisy I pump some high pressure grease in and that sorts it out. It is now that quiet all I can hear is the BB instead.

So do i
After a big ride i put grease And it is quiet.

So where is the grease going?

I thought it was a sealed unit.

p

In the cylinder on the left

Wow - what an interesting diagram!!! thanks for posting!!

Part number 4

Number 3

My question has always been this, why have all the complicated compensator when they have the BMW type driveshaft torsional damper, item 20 that on my quote picture is cropped on the side, but is the lower right part with a bunch of holes in it.

I was thinking that they're obviously strong enough for a BMW sedan to use on their drive shaft and one has more than enough to work on a M3W, why not stack three of them keeping each as a separate in series stack? I think that would be a great compensator without any moving parts, so to speak. No grease and self aligning. The motor crank would stabilize the one end of the stack and the flywheel for trans through the adapter plate bearing would hold true the clutch end.

I think there would be more than enough strength as well as shock absorbing capabilities to do the jog. Then Centa is still rubber inserts being pressed and this would just be rubber twisting.

Any thoughts on this as an option? It would sure be cheaper as these rubber couplings sell on ebay for under $40 each. So three would be $120 and bolting them together shouldn't cost much. The motor plate on the rotor could be tapped to bolt directly to it on one end and the other end already has the rubber ring and adapter that slides over the trans flywheel input shaft.

It seems like a no brainer to me, again thoughts?

My guess is that you may not get or maintain sufficient alignment to get a perfectly balanced assembly.

The transient torque loadings are the problem with the S&S engine. It seems that they are truly massive and even Centa were surprised by how difficult it was to smooth things out enough.

From memory the absolute torque loadings peak at around 1150 lb/ft. Quite scary!

1150?! How can that be?

Extremely short spikes of torque. The normally quoted torque figure can be thought of as an average over a couple of revolutions of the crank. The inertia of the mass of the crank will help smooth things out compared to a lightweight crank but the S&S needs more help than most.

Oi.........I like my sausage sandwiches Mike!

I was a tad out on the torque......a quote from Andrew English article in the Telegraph.

"At the heart of the Three Wheeler is its V-twin engine from S&S of Wisconsin, USA. Known as the X-Wedge and introduced in 2007, this 1,982cc, dry-sump unit has a 56.25-degree angle, a solid, forged 43lb crank for longevity and engine balance at idle and three belt-driven camshafts to allow almost straight pushrods. Retailing at approximately £6,700 in the States, this two-valve, fuel-injected unit punches out 115bhp and 100lb ft of torque with peak revs at 5,200rpm. It’s like a Harley unit but better: S&S has been in the engine business since 1956 and is highly respected.
The trouble is, torque kills transmissions. S&S says it produces torque spikes of 1,800lb ft, which makes the gears clash and sing against each other. Reeves and his team, together with S&S, have adapted a Harley-Davidson mechanical cushion drive, which successfully irons out the firing impulses. The engine sits on a rubber-mounted bed plate and the stainless steel exhausts have flexible couplings and mountings. Start her up and you see a lot of movement, but the cabin and major controls are stock still."

I'm still waiting for the dealer to get back to me on whether or not a grease nipple can be fited. That's been a week with no answer from Morgan.

Tim

Blimey. If that is so, no wonder the word 'humungous' was invented.

In the words of Monty Python - a week, you were lucky!

I'm at 2 months and counting......

Sounds like a question for Mark. Have you tried the help line Mike?

Mike that is very funny, thanks for making me smile.

I heard from the dealer but my questions not fully answered. They will replace compensator under warranty like for like. If I want the Centa there will be a cost to me. Why would they fit a component known to be inadequate & might have to do it again?

My question as to fitting a grease nipple was not answered. I asked if it can be done who pays. Is it worth while if they expect me to pay or just go for centa?

Tim

My car was made just before yours Tim, and registered on 1st June 2013, so I am watching your thread with great interest. So far mine is quiet, but I have no reason to suppose it will remain so.

Did I recall that the cost for the improved Centa unit was £700 fitted? I believe that this is close to cost price, however, I agree with you that the original component is not fit for the purpose, so why should we accept a substandard piece when a better one is available?

I know many people have gone down the route of paying for the latest one, possibly in exasperation at not having a working car, and whilst I would not want to take advantage of Morgan, equally, I would not want them to take advantage of me, or any other customers' goodwill.

I think the point resolves around current consumer law in the UK, something which I know very little about, but are there any 'experts' here who can clarify the situation?

The Sale of Goods Act is your protection!goods must be "fit for purpose"

Not an expert - but if u google this - the facts are all there!

When they put first compensator they could do the job ( putting grease nipple And hole for putting it )
On my superdry it is ok
Why not trying this on the waranty if you are not satisfied you could always pay an extra for the centa.

So when you're a second or third owner?
I guess you simply wait for it to go eh? Then splash out on a Centra - are they so much better?

My car is an April 12 build and yes I'm a little concerned

I'm the first owner of mine. Warranty ends jan 15.

Dealer's advice; drive it lots so it breaks before the warranty expires.

Then you have two choices; either have another of the original compensators fitted for "free" (you "only" pay the transportation to the factory... Which is not exactly cheap!), or you pay more for the new Centra one.

If you decide not to wait for it to break and just go for the Centra (maybe you don't want to drive a ticking bomb, knowing it will one day leave you stranded) then you pay the transportation, the parts AND the labour. This will apparently also be the case if it breaks once the warranty is up.

My compensator sounds bad already (passengers always remark on it). But I don't think it's near the end of its life yet.

The more I think about this, the more annoyed I get!

How much is the centra?

700£

It's Centa and VSpec's information is accurate, apart from his misspelling of Centa. I think it costs a bit more than that, Raphael... more like 800 euros. but perhaps my memory has been boiled by a hot afternoon in a three-wheeled sauna tub between Toulouse and Bargemon.

Ah, yes, my brain has indeed boiled. I saw a euro sign when it was a pound sign!

As they used to say in the music halls, "Don't ask I..."

My car was recovered to factory and I collected it, good excuse to get a factory tour.

I believe the Centa is a longer term solution and is maintenance free, allegedly.

If it works for a long time .......perhaps

You are right Raphy,

keep lubricating yours and it maybe will work for a long time too. I hope a lot of compensators have longevity. You lavish attention on those three MOGS of yours.

Now get out on the golf course.

Vspec - sad to say that the original Comp will just keep getting worse and worse:((((

Just so I understand this correctly.........

If the housing for the comp has the large hole underneath then it should have a comp with the grease nipple?

Or do all of the housings have the access hole and only some comps have the zerk fitting?

This is what I was also curious of. And to make a grease nipple, just drill a hole and make thread in it ?

Another comparison here to Harley, but it may be very close.

In the old days with Harley, they used a ramp type compensator very similar to what you have on your M3W's. Let's take that a bit further, Harley today uses a compensator with ramps just about like the old style. But the old bikes with their 74" to 88" size motors lasted a VERY long time.

Now that Harleys smallest Big Twin is a 103" and like mine with the 110" motors, the compensators are failing at a lot faster clip and has been a BIG problem with many riders.

So the design is okay for smaller lower torque motors, but 100" up to 120" where you guys are, is not working for Morgan or Harley.

Sad to say, I'm only repeating what's already been said here, it isn't if they fail, but when they fail.

On Harley's latest version they added a Torrington needle bearing thrust setup and they have also designed a scoop on the inside of the primary cover to collect and drip oil right back onto the bearing and ramps. So far this one is working a bit better than the last three iterations, but time will probably prove it as a failure too.

So something like the Centa with the four rubber logs being compressed back and forth with the torque pulses within the rounded slots in the inner and outer housing of the new compensator, this is probably the way to go for a long term fix.

Someone said that their Centa created a vibration. There is no way on the design to go out of balance unless one of the logs literally disintegrated and fell out. Or maybe the rubber is not forgiving enough and the vibration is actually the torque pulses coming through the driveline.

I do really wish you guy a good solution to the comp problems.

Dan your spot on with this. The compensator isn't just similar to a Harley! it f from a Harley. I get my 3W back from the factory tomorrow, complete with new chassis.
They said they get it Done within a month and fair ply it's back on time.
Report tomorrow

Matty,

have a safe and trouble free journey, hope you will be grinning from ear to ear.

D

Hello Matty,

Pleased to hear you will have your car back today. Enjoy the rest of the summer. You deserve it!

Best of luck with it Matty, maybe we'll have another meet at Compton Abbas in Septmber, which you will be able to enjoy properly?

More info from my dealer Revolutions in Perth. I've booked in for them to fit the grease nipple to the compensator at no cost to me. They have done several & it takes around 30 minutes.
Revolutions can & will fit the old style compensator if it fails with like for like plus grease nipple. They can do it in 8 to 9 hours & have done several as a warranty job.
If I wanted a centa compensator there would be a charge, it takes a lot longer to change to centa & there would be a cost to me but I dont know how much or if they can do it.
The factory closes this evening till Monday 4th August so I guess if you are waiting for info you will have to wait a bit longer.
Raphael, what grease are you using & how often do you need to grease it?

Tim.

My m3w is a october/2013 build,with no grease nipple...should i leave it as is until it breaks & install the centa...can grease be put from the top just behind the engine?there is a open area

There is a dilemma here. Should you extend the working life of a compromised part through diligent maintenance and have it fail just outside the warranty period? Or leave it alone and have the Centa unit fitted if/when it fails...

Personally I would want it to fail under warranty and have the upgrade installed.

I don't think you will get the Centa though. MMC will try and fit the original setup and charge you to upgrade.

That is their stated policy, but do we know if it has ever been challenged legaly, indeed, is there, in fact, a legal challenge when a known faulty design of part is replaced with another of the same type, when a better part is subsequently in use?

Easily justified by the inconvenience of the failure.

I cant do any warrenty work.as i am all alone in kuwait & there is no dealer here..does anyone know on how to install the centa..is it a direct bolt on part?my m3w has maybe 2000kms..i wont be able to drive it till october..its too hot..but i just ordered the urban cooling kit & will get it polished & ready

Thanks guys
Got the beast back today.
Feels good, cooling fan upgrade well worth it. feels tighter and they must have done an upgrade engine mapping wise. feels smoother. NVH kits comes with new chassis and all appears very civilised. Brand new Spax shocks also fitted at no cost. Centa drive which was already fitted to my 3w is now smoother with no vibration at the moment. New bevel box was fitted also and is reasonably quiet. still has some backlash. Joy cut short by rain storm but can't wait for the weekend.
Morgan have been more than as good as there word with me. I just hope this sorts out the 3W for good. I want this to work for all of us and Morgan. Fingers crossed. Hope to lots of you guys now I'm back on the road.

Matty - what do you mean x "backlash"?

Q8 the Centa drive fits inside the original Bell housing - its the internals which are so v different. Its an engine out job tho!

"the Centa drive fits inside the original Bell housing"

I assume you don't mean actual bellhousing, but the elongated ali. casing that is bolted between the bellhousing and the back of the engine?

I'm not being pedantic, just making sure we are all able to identify the correct part. I was unaware that the Centa drive unit fitted inside the existing case, which is why there is more work to do, hence the extra charge.

Yep it fits inside the original Compensator housing. look to me like nothing changes on the outside of the housing. Hope this helps.

Well on overrun, change down to second or first for a slow corner and when I release the clutch I've always had an intermittent clunk. feels like slack in the bevel box but I suppose if that was the case you would feel it in any gear clutch used or not.
Trouble is any issues anywhere in the drivetrain tend to transmit anywhere. does that make sense?

Okay guys, here's another Dan post...

Way back when I bought a new 2004 Nissan Titan 4x4 pickup truck, it was a new product line for '04. You know what they say, don't buy a first year vehicle, but this truck was kick butt and had an awesome Rockford Fossgate 13 speaker with sub system. Other than the lack luster economy, about 12 mpg, the truck was a very nice and dependable truck, and did I mention the kick butt factory sound system???

Well very early on Nissan found out they had undersized the front rotors and calipers. The rotor warped badly and the brake would vibrate back through the pedal, they called this brake judder. Anyway they came out with all sorts of letters etc about the problem, but the fix was not handled very well.

If you had brake problems, and everyone eventually did, it was required that you go through three (3), yes three rotor turnings and new pads BEFORE they would upgrade you to new larger rotors and calipers.

So you had to go in three times for a "fix" and then wait for the final good parts to be installed. Luckily the final fix did a good job and we had no problems afterwards.

Back in '08 thru about '12 with Harley and their compensator issues, if you had a problem you got the same comp put back in. When they came out with their new SE (Screamin' Eagle) performance comp, you still got the old one under warranty. This was even after they started to put the SE comps on their CVO production bikes. Eventually if you yelled load enough to the factory they would do a special allowance and do the upgrade for you. I've read of many guys having to PAY to have the SE comp put in under warranty to replace an old style comp.

Lucky or not, I've not had any comp issues and my bike is now out of warranty. So at some point I'm figuring I'll have to cough up the money to do a new SE comp.

For right now, this seems very similar to MMC and their policy of replacing with the same undersized crap that won't last.

Hi Tim

I add grease when it starts to get noisy, which can be more than 2000 miles between top ups.

The grease I use is a high pressure blue grease from JCB.

Not expensive and locally available.

Whack a third of a cartridge in and you will have no bother. Mine is as quiet as a mouse with no snatching and smooth on/off power take up.

Centa The system attaches to the end of the crankshaft instead of the old HD system, replace the motor shaft as flying because it is longer.

One question,i have the old compensator,can grease be inserted through the top, under the steering rack,or its a NO NO?

thanks Matty - good to know that I am not alone!!

But what is the "slack" - I worry that its metal on metal - and that something is going to fail/go bang!

Well I've been thinking and testing it a bit more. it definitely doesn't happen if you keep the revs up. With motorbikes you would feel it as snatch in the primary chain. On ours beasts I reckon the bevel drive is the likely candidate. All gear trains have backlash to some degree or another or they lock solid. just rock any geared system and you'll feel it. I'm guessing the drivetrain components are running faster than the engine as they may do post overrun when you dip,the clutch and let the engine revs drop, those same components will be taking up the full slack(or backlash) in the various gear trains in this condition. Release the clutch on a slow engine and your removing that load momentarily causing the gear trains to reverse lash if that makes any sense. I reckon there may be more backlash coming off load on most gear trains and that why we feel it more on slow overrun than on acceleration. I think I may be overthinking this!!!!

Q8 my dealer told me its not a straight swap for the centa more work is involved so the job takes longer than the 8 or 9 hours to swap out old style compensator. Perhaps MMC can give you some guidance on how to do it.
DoO thanks for the greasing info. Do you have a part no for the JCB grease?

Tim.

Thanks Tim..i hope this winter i can enjoy it in kuwait hassel free(october thru april)it has 2000km's only since last season..any mantince tips to check/do before using it ?

Isn't JCB grease just "regular" high performance lithium complex grease (the blue stuff). Mine is from Castrol and I *think* it is the same stuff.

I spoke to a dealer today to book my car in for the annual service and we got to chatting about the Centa unit.

Apparently it needs a completely different fly wheel, which is lighter and therefore improves throttle response and also has a centre actuated clutch release bearing and not the fork type used on the old style compensators.

This is why it seems to take a long time to fit and costs so much.

Grease part number is: 4003/2017

Could that explain the clunk when releasing the clutch on overrun?

Had the compensator grease nipple fitted on Monday & drove the 90 miles home,all fine. Started car yesterday & its rattling again. Drove 15 miles & parked. On restart did not notice any rattle & there may have been a bit on arriving home. Started it this morning & rattle seems absent.
Where to from here? Buy some blue grease & a gun or just leave it alone till failure then get a Centa fitted. Do they just get louder & louder or fail catastrophically?

Tim

Tim - sadly the Compensator will get worse and worse - not sure if they "fail" but the noise will increase to unacceptable levels:((

As mine died it was hard to hear as the bevel box was going at the same time! It did not fail catastrophically just slowly gave up.

Mine left me in 50 miles and took the alternator with him :-)

My m3w arrived brand new in nov 2013 .now its has 2000 km's,i hope i can use it this october thru april(cool season)without any issues...as then im thinking of shipping it back to the factory this coming summer for all the new upgrades..my service here has been only engine oil & bb oil..

Best of luck Q8. Hope you have no trouble.

Tim