Talk Morgan Forums Morgan Sports Cars Maintenance & Servicing Workshop Note: Immobiliser C.2016...........

Last Wednesday I went to start the Plus 4 and the immobiliser light didn't go off when I clicked the ignition on. I knew the battery could do with a charge, so I charged it up overnight. The following day it started normally so I put this down to voltage sensitivity.

Yesterday, I wanted to fill the tank,so jumped in expecting a start, and the immobiliser light didn't go out.

So I removed the cowl to examine the sensor ring which surrounds the ignition lock barrel. This ring has a scientific name but rather than guess I'll call it the sensor ring. It detects the sensor which is buried inside the plastic part of the key. If you look carefully on the metal key side of the black plastic the location of the key sensor is visible as a filled hole.

The sensor ring around the lock barrel is secured by a neoprene spacer. Almost like I've been there before! I moved the sensor ring outwards, and the car started. It was a bit nail biting at the filling station but it started OK.

When we got back home I tried again and it wouldn't start............

So I consulted my Guru..........

The distance between the key and the detector ring is critical to probably within 1mm or less.

He's had a couple of Morgans in recently in the "18 months old to two years old range" with this issue.

The trick is to get the detector ring as close as possible to the key handle...............

This is how it comes from the Factory. The lock barrel is wrapped with standard density self adhesive neoprene. Around that to prevent the ring slipping inwards is a thin strip of neoprene. If your cowl is leather wrapped, the leather adds additional distance between the ring and key.



The next image is a bit clearer. The wiring from the sensor is a bit tight, but can be eased out from the cable tie buried under the dashboard.



The black plastic cover pulls off the lock barrel which makes removing the original neoprene much easier.........
The detector ring is upper left.



This is the DW solution. High density neoprene and with the securing ring held with a cable tie.
Refitting the cowl is tedious. I reduced the overlap of leather to try and reduce the thickness around the lock barrel. First time didn't work so I had to go back in and space the ring a little further out at the top.



If you ever get caught where the immobiliser light won't go out, wipe the black plastic part of the key around the lock barrel, and you'll have about twenty seconds to insert the key and start the engine after the light goes out!!!

Three starts later it looks promising, but who knows!!

This problem could occur on a 4/4 and because the warning light is not visible diagnosing the non starting would be difficult .

Can't recall having such distance critical issues after having it apart several times in the roadster when I was chasing a sluggish starting issue (key wiring to relay) are they different? Only have the naked plastic cowling in mine though.

At least the starter doesn't turn, the immobiliser is almost too good!

I had a similar problem which proved to be dry soldered joints in the spider unit behind the dash.

Had similar problem with my 2015 plus 4. No warning light but just would not start. Not wanting to bugger things up took to dealer who knew it could be an issue. Sorted it and not been a problem since. He said coil location had to be just right.

“So I consulted my Guru..........”

You mean there is a higher grade of Guru than DaveW!!!

Indeed there is! The trick is knowing who will know!!!!

.

I don' have to know everything - to know whom I can ask is enough!

How annoying
I know of two Mog owners just recently that have had problems with not starting down to the immobiliser

Dave recently had a leather cowl fitted at Allon Whites when they had finished the car would not start so they had to dissemble the cowl and alter it since then it has refused to start twice but taking the key out and putting it back or changing to a second key starts the car. I now always take two keys with me! As you say it is disconcerting when this happens! Had the same problem with my 4/4 a few years ago Allon white also described the 20 sec rule! They also said jiggling behind the cowl with your finger sometimes works ! ! These pics above are very helpful thank you!

Spot on bm

Someone will generally have the answer on here too, if Button hasn't seen it or done it before it's a rare thing during his decades of Morganing Then there is Arwyn with his wealth of knowledge and experience of all things Morgan whether it has 3 or 4 wheels, we are truly blessed at TM both these guys are disarmingly modest too.

Here is some advice from my friend in Lund

The game is not over...........

Tried this morning and I had to use the swipe and 20 second rule.

So I need another go with the cowl.

Given that that this has worked flawlessly for over two years, it does make me wonder if aging is affecting sensitivity of the components, although I suppose it shouldn't.

No time today but will post findings later..................

Same for all keys Dave?

I deliberately haven't tried the second key yet............I'm going to have another go tomorrow, and maybe try that if I still can't get consistency.

If key 2 works every time then what does that infer? That using the key erodes the function??? It doesn't make sense..........

I would recommend trying the other key? It will confirm or isolate the concern?

If it is the key, then maybe the rfi transducer in the key is on the blink, you don't get very hot pockets do you?

It doesn't bode well if keys are going on the blink after two years does it......

Dave, as you are few years older than me, do you think this problem will affect me later?
Cheers,
Bert

Key on my 2011 4/4 would occasionally fail. Usually removing it & holding it at arms length then trying again seemed to work. This was from new. Anyway about 4 months ago used my 2nd key & touch wood it has worked every time. Not sure what powers the keys or could their sensitivity be different.

Hold it to your head when you use it. Clarkson trick, never needed to try it.

It's not a zapper Bob, just a simple key with a transducer in the plastic part. No batteries either!

The Clarkson trick does work with zappers though. I've tried it a few times.....

Ah! Right. Anyone know why the trick works?

They are ultra sonic & I guess the head acts as an amplifier like the head of a whale does.

Big head!

Who ? Clarkson, certainly does !

sorry Dave, don't understand is there nothing to internally power the key. Sounds like magic. Can't see any way of getting into the key. PS luckily this car came with four keys.

Google it Ray. The coil around the steering lock barrel induces a current in the chip and asks the chip to identify itself. The chip provides a code which disarms the immobiliser.

The immobiliser remains off until the key is removed and after about twenty seconds it re-arms.

Fancier chips also receive a new code each time they are used but I don't think this happens with the Ford system.

Anyway better news. I spent the morning messing with the cowl. The original key works every time with the cowl removed and the sensor ring closer.

I've re-wrapped the lock barrel, this time with leather. I've also ground away the plastic from the inside of the cowl around the lock hole to get the sensor ring as close to the key as possible. It took three fits to get an acceptable look but its back on. Since then its worked every time. Only time will tell if that's it.

Dave, you mention Ford as the OEM for the immobiliser, (& I assume ignition lock), does that mean with the Land Rover indicator stalks we still have a mix of suppliers ?

Good question Jon. I just assume that the hideous key is Ford......you might have a point!

Do I detect a slight loosing of your normal patience on this one Dave?

Well, I do tire of the dagger like key poking a hole in my trouser pocket........................

It's irritating..............when most keys now fold in on themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I don't desire keyless, any more than I desire an electronic handbrake, or stop/start, which are all pointless complexity.............

But I'd like a smaller key.......

Get yourself a girly key pouch like me
No keys to poke oneself with and also stops any keys jangling from the ignition

But where do you keep it? A bulging pocket??

I see where this is ending, in SWBO's purse

Harald

Thanks Dave, the wonders of modern electronics

Tight trousers could make you popular in the pub.

Tight trousers always did that Ray.......

It’s not that bulky

I just wear regular Levi’s and it fits a treat

Hanky and change in left pocket, keys in right pocket

Wallet with cards and notes on the back of my phone in upper breast inside jacket pocket

Specs in upper outer breast pocket - usually with a small lens cleaning hanky

Simples

with all those things in your brest pockets you could have more attention than Dave in the pub.

They even have a DaveW Morgan orange one

Oh no..........stop tempting me..........

Update.

It took three attempts to sort this.

With the cowl removed and the sensor ring edged outwards, the key worked every time.

First I removed all the overlapped leather on the inside of the cowl and reassembled. That wasn't enough.

So I ground away some of the plastic on the inside of the cowl around the hole and reassembled. That wasn't enough either.

So I ground most of the plastic around the hole to the diameter of the ring, so that the ring now sits just behind the leather trim. No plastic in the way at all............

I also replaced my replacement neoprene around the barrel with leather!!!!!

Hey presto......now I insert the key (without turning) and the immobiliser disarms in two seconds.....one full flash of the warning light, and a second short flash. So far over about half a dozen tests its been consistent............

So time will tell. It appears that age or use affects the coil and transducer and reduces the range. Given that we're talking mm's a tiny reduction in range is enough.

So if it happens when you're out, remember the 20 second rule.
Wipe the black plasic part of the key around the lock barrel. When the light goes out you have 20 seconds to start the engine.............

Still working OK!

Thanks for the info, Dave. This happened to my car yesterday (2yr old Plus 4). We were just on our way to a meet, so didn't have time to investigate and had to take the tin-top.
This morning I held the chip closer to the barrel (remembering the 20 second rule), and hey-presto the immobiliser dis-armed and the engine fired up.
Now to sort out a permanent fix .............

Good work Alan.

There's something going on at two years it seems........

On my +4 Supersport the chip is not in the key but a separate piece of torpedo shaped plastic on a chain.

The car will only fire up when the immobiliser is held right up to the ignition ring.

I suspect that will be a Mazda immobiliser Kev.

Maybe the mog battery has dropped enough to effect its range?

Possible Mark. And quite plausible.

That's what happened with my car just before I changed the battery as a preventative measure. That cleared it totally so I surmised it must have been the at rest terminal volts being a smidgen low for it to operate .

I never put an optimate on any car as I know how well they fry batteries, I do always throw the Red switch and isolate the electrics and that way I can leave the car for up to 2 months without starting if I am away without the need to charge.

I successfully managed to dis-arm the immobiliser today with the intention of taking it to BHM (as it's still under warranty), BUT the car wouldn't start. The battery is fully charged and the starter motor is turning over. Very strange as it started OK yesterday once I had dis-armed the immobiliser.

Are these just newer/ish cars having issues? Bad job lot or different source for imob sensor or transducers?

Did you warm it up fully Alan the day before?

No - just ticked over for a short time in the garage

There have been odd occasions of GDIs getting wet plugs after a short idle.
Try it again and if it wont fire you might have to dry the plugs.

Keith might have a dodge....like disconnecting a wire to fool it into making a hot start........

Remember the days of Cold Start aerosol ? Lethal stuff, but worked

Yeah, never used it though. When my first car.......105E Anglia wouldn't start in winter, I parked it on the pub car park over the road and pushed it down the hill every morning and jumped in.....

I can remember doing the same with my Dad's 105E - pushing it up and down the drive to bump-start it! It never started first time on the key, always at the third time of asking, but always started when bumped!
Thanks for the tip on the wet plugs. I've had them all out and cleaned but still no success. Also spoke to Keith - no way of fooling the car into submission. Believe it or not the immobiliser is now dis-arming with the key in the lock, but just won't start. Having it trailered to BHM on Thursday.

Sorry to hear that you have problems Alan...............

Yes sorry to hear

Quite baffling

Alan, You have tried reseting the "crash Switch" for many of a better word?
On my 4/4 if the switch trips the engine will crank but not start.

Yep - done that. My son-in-law has just been round and we've eliminated the fuses as a potential source using one of his testing gizmos.

Many thanks for your suggestions chaps. It's over to BHM now.

I have the exact same problem, going back to Morgan to sought out under warranty end of November, I will let you know how they rectified the fault. From your comments and reply's this seems a common problem. Had car from new, fault started around 12 months ago. Coil in correct position on barrel.

Morgan Plus 4 2016

Let us know how you get on!

So chaps - presuming the car/s are now fixed - what was the issue?

UPDATE:

Last weekend, when we went for a drive, the immobiliser was slow to disarm. Not the usual two seconds, more like ten seconds.

When we came back after 46 miles with a hot cockpit, I re-tested it and it was back to two seconds.

So today I did a bit more experimenting................

It was cold in the garage, about 5 degrees C. I inserted the key and it was reluctant to disarm. So I wiped the side of the key against the lock barrel and it then disarmed. I put the key in the ignition but didn't start the engine.

With the key in place after 20 odd seconds the immobiliser re-activated. Note that it doesn't do this if the engine has been started.

I then connected the battery charger with the key still in place and within a couple of minutes, if that, the immobiliser de-activated.

Clearly then, this is a temperature/voltage issue. Cold temp reduces battery voltage........

After an hour on the charger, I'm back to a two second disarm when I put the key into the lock barrel.

Keith at BHM, and other dealers are aware of this issue.

At the Breakfast meet at RTCC the other week apparently there were four others as well as myself with the same issue.

I think BHM have had five. Not sure if that includes mine!

I wonder if its a dodgy batch of immobilisers.

It would be interesting to see if these cars went through the factory at the same time.

Production on mine started September 2016 picked up from dealer January 2017.

Mine was delivered at the end of June 2016.

Further update:

Tested again this morning. Garage below 5 degrees C, but full battery from yesterday's charge.

Immobiliser disarmed in two seconds. So........I'm thinking that this must be battery voltage related. The sensor coil is permanently live, as it has to read the key before the ignition is switched on. My instinct tells me this shouldn't be 12volts, but I haven't tested it. Clearly there's a very tight margin around 12volts whereby any reduction de-sensitises the coil.

I don't see an easy fix to this, other than a fully charged battery.

Maybe the new painted chassis type is effecting the grounding?

Maybe remove or bypass the Morgan fitted immobiliser and use an alternative method of immobilising the car. That's what I did when I removed the old ECU.

Not sure how easy that is on the more modern cars but one of our electronic gurus should be able to find an answer.

Plenty of stand alone immobilisers on the market.

I'll leave that one for the experts Bob. I think it links into the ECU so may not be a simple fix.

Update: well as at 27th November it still disarms at two seconds, without any more charge into the battery.

But I haven't finished yet. I'm going through all the main connections. I've done the battery, which was OK. The battery earth is bolted onto the battery cradle cross-member. This is bolted onto the chassis. and locates above the lower rail.

I don't know if the holes for the battery cradle crossmember are drilled before the autophoretic coating, but I do think having this arrangement may cause trouble later on.

So today I've added a supplementary earth lead from the battery cradle pivot bolt, to the fixing bolt on the chassis. I scraped away a bit of the coating under the penny washer to get a good contact, and tested it for continuity.

Tomorrow I'll look at the other main earth contact points. There's one in the spare wheel cavity in the offside corner, and two onto the bulkhead above the brake servo.

Dave, I know Allon White told me the earth that is onto the heater box on the passenger side inside the car can often be faulty.
Mine was loose & I also ran another line to the safety hoop to be safe.