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Andy im in the same boat as you, started S3 shopping and had all sorts of problems finding one, contacted the factory and asked if they had fixes for the issues and they basically told me i should buy a new car.

So i asked them if they had tested the new cars to a standard where they could give a warranty at a similar level to some of the cheapest cars on the market, like a aygo or panda (~9k). There was alot of squirming.

So i offered to test it and help them get to that level. I would use it as a commuter (between UK, Norway and Poland) and pay for the fuel, tyres, brakes and they throw in the car. They get to keep the car for 1 week in 3 and i would put 2000miles a week on it for them. If the car could keep up for a year i would buy it.

Interms of the other manufactures. Defenders leak and corrode, but they do a different job, and in all fairness, im pretty sure between me and the father in law we have abused his over the years, for pulling boats and cars on trailers as well as getting in and out of the village in the winter.

Golf platform cars have problems with the pollen filters leaking.

MMC seemed to have forgotten about how such troubles killed lancia in the uk 25 years ago. Customers now expect that there wont be any bubbles on there cars for 8-10 years. What scares the hell out of me is they have teamed with Magnesium Elktron for the EvaGT, and Mg will be worse than the Al that they use at the moment for corrosion.

http://www.magnesium-elektron.com/data/downloads/Corrosion%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

Whats the most frustrating as you say is the technology exists, I would happily make twintex wheel arch liners for MMC in our factory in poland. Infact if we can find 20 people who want them i will tool it and make them for less the the cost of an average aero service.

May be TM should do the R&D which MMC seems to be missing!

Impressive data on magnesium corrosion and prevention I felt like I was back in a science lecture. Perhaps you should approach Morgan with a plan of action they might implement for future production models.

My 5 year old S3 is brilliant and no longer leaks (much) but I do sort of agree with the comments. There was too much wrong with my car when it was delivered (and it was a demonstrator before it got to me, having been in the showroom for a few months). I have to blame both the factory and the dealer - and especially the dealer.

I have the bubbles around rear lights and one side exhaust did unweld itself (fixed in 30 mins for £70 though).

It is true that the paintwork and protection is sub-standard for a day-to-day car and the wipers, and heating and ventilation are not exactly brilliant either.

It would be nice to have reclining seats too, though I like the fixed seats. I also had problems with central locking (replaced by factory and no problems since).

But for the feel-good factor and admiring glances / overall satisfaction over 5 years I'm pretty happy with it and have no regrets. For £1000 I should be able to sort out the paintwork and will probably do that in a year or so. Overall though and unless you really peer at it the car still looks almost new inside and out. Overall reliability has been fine too, with only some hose issues that caused a water loss fairly early on.

It's all very well moaning but the realities of running a company like Morgan are probably more hand-to-mouth than any of us like to believe, and I'm sure they'd like a better paint shop and ability to test vehicles but I bet the sums simply don't stack up.

Perhaps that's why cars like the M3W may make more sense going forward - keep it simple and cheapish and make it abundantly clear the cars are really nice toys rather than useful transport. The M3W has essentially been tested and improved by dealers and early customers as seems to be the Morgan tradition, and luckily seems to have just about worked as the new cars are a lot better than earlier ones.

I agree about the magnesium issues - aluminium should probably be perfected instead. There are good reasons that most manufacturers avoid magnesium and most have looked at it...

Thanks Graham, but i tried talking to them about a couple of technologies, but they arnt interested.

So i guess you know http://www.superform-aluminium.com/ makes the panels for the aero's currently the TSB have funded MMC to develop magnesium technology. The challenge is really you need a good knowledge of all light metals to make the right choices.

back in the dim and distant past i worked with Antony on this one http://www.google.com/patents/US8066925 we were looking at in situ growth of carbon nano tubes on the back of sprayed metal to improve the performance on bumpers. This makes the body panels of the azure ~21% of the weight of the arnarge.

The floor uses the rail system from audi with a P4 carbon sprayed floor.

There are lots of good engineers in the UK who really know what there doing especially when you only need to make small volumes. to put this in perspecitive

using light metals technology then the vechile is only going to be 10% heavier than a composite vechile, but the sweet spot for pressing these parts is around 10000-30,000 vehicles per year, hence Jaguars use of this for the XJ and XK.

To superform them (like MMC does) then the sweet spot is closer to 750-1500 units per year. Here they are missing a trick as these could be composite backed to provide automotive finish with more stability than they currently have, and resolve the corrosion issues, in "wet" areas.

Less than 700 units per year then composite and autoclaving is the way forward, as you can produce one part per 8 hr shift out of one tool, eg 1.5 hr layup, 5 hrs in the autoclave and 1.5hr strip and clean.

May be another area that they are missing out on is the use of technologies like squeeze cast metal matrix composites for suspension components. Filament wound propshaft (the uk makes most of the composite propshafts for Mercedes, BMW, most of the F1 teams, the MoD is even looking at them on the warrior and ascod)

The wacky bit is that the UK is the leader in alot of these technologies, and end up in F1, trains, and fighter planes.

A cool modern Morgan could have a electric drive train, rotary diesel engine in the front with NeFeB pancake generator, flywheel storage and distributed electric motors with regenarative brakeing.

Im sure this would upset some of the traditional folk



Just picking up on wiscos point; what should morgan do in house, and what should it outsource?

NOOOOOOOOO....not me! I may love my traditional 4/4 and don't want any changes to it but I do really find modern automotive technology very fascinating and have no problems with Morgan developing some advanced cars!
It just worries me that MMC are going down the line of magnesium structures no doubt with the attraction of some government or EU subsidies, when they should be looking at other technologies.

what about having a separate brand?

Like Morgan for the Trads and Aero for the more modern stuff?

Ferrari for a start and they cost a lot more.

I don't know how you can expect a company with a tiny budget to produce cars to the same level as a major manufacturer with the backing of an umbrella group and all that provides, from the cost of a basic bolt/washer all the way to being able to spend tens of millions just designing lamp clusters. I'm not saying the cars are perfect but let's be realistic.

But its not about spending all that much money, we all know that most of the parts are bought in. Ferrari design there own engines so its hardly fair to compare.

Morgan should manage to do a similar job to Bitter, make cars that work with a style that appeals

Of course it's fair to compare them with Ferrari as they are the other end of the cottage industry spectrum. They suffer paint quality and corrosion issues and yet they are made in a hugely expensive cutting-edge factory backed by Fiat and significant private investment. They also catch fire, get delivered with the geometry completely off, don't make quoted power, etc. People spend anywhere up to 300k+ and the first thing they have to do is take it to an indie to have it detailed properly and have it set up correctly. Much has been made of their 7 year servicing but really this is just a means to an end to keep things in-house so that stealth upgrades and rectfications can be made to prevent warranty arguments down the road once cars have changed owners and gone elsewhere.

Morgans do work, the powertrains and chassis are proven and I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong but I'm not aware of them being inherently unreliable. I have no idea what the comparison with Bitters is because they were just reclothed Opels, which is pret far away from what Morgans are.

[quote=Gwyn]Andy im in the same boat as you, started S3 shopping and had all sorts of problems finding one, contacted the factory and asked if they had fixes for the issues and they basically told me i should buy a new car.

So i asked them if they had tested the new cars to a standard where they could give a warranty at a similar level to some of the cheapest cars on the market, like a aygo or panda (~9k). There was alot of squirming.

So i offered to test it and help them get to that level. I would use it as a commuter (between UK, Norway and Poland) and pay for the fuel, tyres, brakes and they throw in the car. They get to keep the car for 1 week in 3 and i would put 2000miles a week on it for them. If the car could keep up for a year i would buy it.

Interms of the other manufactures. Defenders leak and corrode, but they do a different job, and in all fairness, im pretty sure between me and the father in law we have abused his over the years, for pulling boats and cars on trailers as well as getting in and out of the village in the winter.

Golf platform cars have problems with the pollen filters leaking.

MMC seemed to have forgotten about how such troubles killed lancia in the uk 25 years ago. Customers now expect that there wont be any bubbles on there cars for 8-10 years. What scares the hell out of me is they have teamed with Magnesium Elktron for the EvaGT, and Mg will be worse than the Al that they use at the moment for corrosion.

http://www.magnesium-elektron.com/data/downloads/Corrosion%20Protection%20Principles.pdf

Whats the most frustrating as you say is the technology exists, I would happily make twintex wheel arch liners for MMC in our factory in poland. Infact if we can find 20 people who want them i will tool it and make them for less the the cost of an average aero service.

May be TM should do the R&D which MMC seems to be missing!


Gwyn

Thanks for the response


I hope no has got me wrong I have owned two Trad Morgans having put put a deposit on one with my first months salary when I was 17 and the waiting list was 5/7 years!!!! Both were red by the way.

30+ years later I'm a lot older , wiser, and have the disposable income to buy and run whatever I choose (within reason and that includes any of the current Aero derivatives)

My point is if I'm going to tour Europe (that's the plan) it's going to rain at some point and having spent a lot of £Ks , and not being bothered in the least that I have to stop and manually close the roof, I expect at that price point that it won't leak when it is up!

When I look at the Morgan website I smile at the Life Car, The Electic Car etc

I would get a much bigger smile at 'The Car For Over a £80K with a Water Tight Hood' :-)

Bottom line is while folk keep buying them with leaking soft tops that what you will get.

If it was any other brand you would say 'Refuse to accept it , its not fit for pupose, tell them to fix it or ask for your money back'

But as it's a Morgan you should not expect it to be water tight, no matter how much you paid.

If I bought a M3W i expect to get wet if it rains

If I buy an Aero 8 I don't

If MMC wanted to make a water tight vehicle they could/can, every other manufacturer seams to have mastered that skill.

I loved my Roadster and every time I got in it it felt 'different and special', but I didn't take it out in the rain and I want a soft top to tour Europe that doesn't leak!

I will be testing a S3 in Jan and if the dealer (PG BTW) is prepared to let me have 5 mins with it and lend me a jet wash and its water tight, has no paint bubbles or drive line shunt I will buy it.

Photos will be posted with Custard, Paxo , Humble Pie etc .

If not I'll be off to talk to a Jaguar dealer about an F Type and it will be a given that it doesn't leak!