Talk Morgan Forums Community The Malvern Arms Ethanol in petrol

There's no need to consult the manufacturer of most vintage cars as they are pretty simple on the fuel front.

My three wheeler has a steel tank, bad news - but you can get tank sealant that is ethanol proof. Bit of a pain taking it out, but no need to rush into it, leave it for later when the engine needs to move for a another reason.

Then the taps are brass and most of the fuel lines are copper. Not really a problem at 5, 10 or even 15% ethanol although the scare stories would have you believe it is.

Then there is a short length of rubber fuel hose as a flexible connection between the body mounted lines and the carburettor. Hopefully that is synthetic rubber based, but if ethanol does attack it, changing the hose is a five minute job.

Most of the gaskets and seals in the Amal 289 carburettor are cardboard types so should be ok, but again, this carburettor is a very common type, with easily available spares so getting a new part is very easy. And being a very simple device, easy and quick to change all the seals and gaskets (I did it circa 2001 as a precaution).

If you think I've left out the fuel pump, I haven't, gravity is not affected by alcohol but a few drinkers on Friday nights may offer evidence to the contrary!

But I think that's a case of alcohol being affected by gravity Martyn!

Posted elsewhere, but the subject of ethanol in petrol is a bit popular these days.

I asked a very experienced oil company chemist about the shelf life of petrol now ethanol is added, and for his take on supposed metal corrosion directly attributed to the ethanol content. The issue of water corrosion was not mentioned but of the normally found materials, only steel can corrode in the presence of air and water.

I present the reply unedited apart from a bit of spelling and punctuation correction. The word ‘Blandeo’ is Spanish and presumably used idiomatically as a direct translation make little sense. As it is not that important, I’ll not ask on this point.

As a bit of context, both he and I are Morgan three wheeler owners.

rgds Martyn

Dear Martyn.

Please feel free to quote any of my stuff anywhere. Can't reply at length, but suffice to say that this apparent determination to take a negative attitude and to accept as gospel any 'advice' which shows modern fuel in a bad light dismays and puzzles me. We are brave vintage vehicle drivers, who go boldly, infinitive intact, regardless of a lack of crumple zones, anti-lock brakes (or even brakes, in some cases!), seat belts and all the rest, yet some delicate flowers are scared of a drop of ethanol. Tell 'em to get out and drive! The Porsche driver should have used that tankful, and a few more, before the fuel had chance to get 6 months old. Anyway, I bet it was corroded ignition points or something. With fuel being the fashionable whipping boy, it is easy to blame it for everything.

Shelf-life: Fuel and oil suppliers always quote unnecessarily short storage times for 'back covering' reasons. We do at Fuchs/Silkolene. Never had any trouble myself.

I simply do not believe all the tripe about corroding brass, copper, leaded steel etc. etc. Until someone sends, or tells me where to get the actual lab reports with test conditions, tabulated results and photos, then I shall continue to believe my own eyes and 45+ years of experience that tells me that such metals are NOT corroded by ethanol or petrol/ethanol mixtures. (My Amal 29 is virtually all brass, the 1963 1 1/4 inch SUs are brass and aluminium die-castings, with plastic and rubber bits. All are perfect, and I know what they look like internally because I regularly service them myself, the Amal for about 30 years and the SUs for 20. Morgan and Sprite tin-plated steel and galvanised steel fuel tanks, brass/copper fittings, hoses, plastic and rubber are all just fine.

For over two years I have been asking for evidence and samples, and all I get is daft gossip and urban myth. What more can I say? Oh yes, I can say this: The real killer of old vehicles is lack of use. We all know this deep down. In my less charitable moments I even suspect this over-reaction to a minor change in fuel composition to be an excuse to use the cosy and convenient Blandeo! (Yes, I'm guilty as well, but I ADMIT I'm getting soft!) Please quote all of that.

Keep up the good work, JR

Very interesting Martyn. Thanks for sharing.

+1 Interesting and reassuring.

Yet another reason for daily driving, not that I need one

Sorry but belief isn't proof, Historic car club tests have tested and documented effects of ethanol on a variety of metals and plastics.

Esso garage at Seaton, East Devon contacted Esso to check what they were being supplied, 9 out of 10 deliveries come from Havant and the Super Unleaded from there does not have ethanol, the latest delivery is ethanol free.

Interesting study published by the Historic Vehicles Assoc. here in the U.S.

http://www.historicvehicle.org/~/media/Files/HVA/Media%20Center%20Files/Ethanol%20Information/PDF/Ethanol_FAQ_Flyer.ashx

Allen
'69 4/4

All very confusing, experts on both sides of the OK not OK divide disagreeing with each other.

I cannot understand why they are adding ethanol - what is the value proposition?

There must be an independent and I mean independent body (a university?) who has looked at this in detail.

confused of South Hams

The argument for adding ethanol is it reduces the requirement for oil and because ethanol is derived from food or plant matter, a renewable resource.

So it's presented as a 'green' choice politically although my understanding is most true greens don't accept the argument.

As for differing views - very much so. However, my chemist friend is the real deal.

When you see a view on ethanol in fuel, not only have you got to ask, "what are the qualifications for someone to say that?", but also "who do they work for and what's their personal interest?". It's not helped by the fact that some institutions that should know better have been taken in. While I normally recommend the FBHVC (Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs) their advice on ethanol in petrol does contain a few errors that ought to be seen through by anyone with A level chemistry (I have, and can).

The biggest risk is corrosion due to water in steel tanks and pipes, with a possible effect of ethanol on some plastics and natural rubber. While petrol is a far better solvent than ethanol, there are some plasticisers that are soluble in ethanol and not petrol.

I've said everything I can and am unlikely to contribute again to this thread.